Sir James Cleverly
MP for Braintree · Conservative · United Kingdom
“On 26 March, I said that people will ask whether these reforms are an act of gross gerrymandering and political opportunism, or gross incompetence and stupidity. I think today we recognise that it is both. The right hon. Lady has only just returned to the Dispatch Box, so it cannot really be her fault, so who has screwed up?”
“Increased energy costs, increased material costs, the increased cost of employing people, particularly young people, the increased cost of bureaucracy and business taxes are all pushing up the cost of building and squeezing the viability of projects.”
“I thank the Secretary of State for advance sight of his statement. This is blatant—blatant. These changes, like so many of the Secretary of State’s decisions, have been driven by party politics.”
“In Nottinghamshire, Conservative-run Rushcliffe council is a well-run, financially secure council, yet under his plans it will be carved up with most of its assets transferred to debt-ridden Labour Nottingham city council.”
“In Devon, he has accepted the proposals put forward by Labour-run Exeter and Plymouth. In Leicester, he has accepted the submissions by a Labour-controlled council. In Nottingham, he has accepted the proposal put forward by the Labour-run city council. I could go on and on, but time does not permit.”
“So please can he inform the House: is two-tier local government good or is two-tier local government bad? He does not seem to know. What assessment has the Secretary of State made of the democratic deficit?”
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“A number of Members have said that the Government should be forced to abide by the campaign ideas of Vote Leave. I understand the thinking behind that, but it is worth remembering that Vote Leave was a cross-party, single-issue campaign group. There were Conservative politicians, Labour politicians and UK Independence party politicians in Vote Leave. I believe there may have been Liberal Democrat supporters, if not politicians, and there was a member of the Green party—just one, I know, but they were there none the less. It is ridiculous to demand that a Conservative Government be forced to deliver the agenda of a cross-party campaign group. If the remain campaign had won, no one with any credibility would have demanded that the Prime Minister bring Will Straw into the heart of Government to start dictating Government policy.”
“That is driven not by the result of the referendum but by what I believe to be a fundamental cornerstone of the democratic process. The question on the ballot paper was clear and unambiguous, irrespective of what Members have said, or might say, in this debate. The question was whether the UK should leave the EU. Some Members who have spoken in this debate, and who I have spoken to about the issue, have attempted to retrofit a whole series of other implied questions into that referendum question. Questions about the nature of sovereignty, the nature of international trade and the nature of border controls are not unimportant, but they were not the question on the ballot paper. The question on the ballot paper was clear and unambiguous; to suggest that somehow it was other than that is grossly unfair.”
“About a month before the referendum, when the result was widely expected to be successful for the remain campaign, I was asked on “Newsnight” whether I would respect the result of a close remain vote. I said that even if remain won by only by one vote, I would respect the decision. I note the point made by the hon. Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna) that the petition was actually started by someone campaigning for leave, perhaps in the expectation of a remain win. Had that outcome happened—had remain been victorious in the referendum—and this petition had come before us, I would have stood up and given fundamentally the same speech that I am going to give now, saying that I respect the outcome of the referendum and suggesting that a second referendum is completely inappropriate.”
“We will rejoin the EU and overturn the explicit mandate from the EU referendum,” good luck to them. They can put that in front of the British people and let us see what they come up with.”
“Then over the next couple of years, as timetabled by article 50, we will see a negotiated position, which I suspect will be in the public domain in the lead-up to the 2020 general election. The Prime Minister will no doubt put forward the Conservative plan for what Brexit will look like in real terms, including on immigration policy, public spending policy, trade policy, defence policy and so on. I am sure the Labour party—I will rephrase that: I hope the Labour party—will be able to put forward an agenda for what its impression of Brexit looks like, including its public spending priorities, immigration plans and international trade plans. The Liberal Democrats and the Scottish National party will do likewise. If one of those parties wishes to say, “Actually, do you know what? None of the deals on the table is good enough.”
“Without a doubt, through the negotiation process and in the aftermath of our exit, the Government will need to put to the British people a credible plan on those issues and a whole host of others to have a realistic chance of being returned to government. That brings me to my fundamental point. The way parliamentary democracy and parliamentary accountability work is that prospective Governments should put forward their ideas. Those ideas should be voted on by the British people, and those Governments should be held to account for the delivery or otherwise of that agenda. It is helpful to think about the chronology. We are likely to see article 50 invoked relatively soon, I suspect.”
“The hon. Member for Streatham has pre-empted my next paragraph, so I thank him for that. He may read my speech to prove to him that I am not retrofitting anything. Although it is not incumbent on the Government to take on board the campaign ideas and slogans of Vote Leave, it would be unwise of any Government to ignore some of the fundamental issues that came to the fore during the referendum campaign, such as the desire for greater domestic sovereignty for this country, for the reprioritisation of Government spending to domestic expenditure—for example, a significant upturn in spending on the national health service—for the control of borders and for greater international trade.”
“I take the hon. Gentleman’s point on board. Although I disagree with some of the fundamentals underlying it, it is a valid point, but the status quo is as I described it.”
“I strongly urge all Members to reject the proposal, move forward and deliver Brexit in a way that is beneficial to the British people. Those who want to put forward their version of what the future might look like should do so at the general election, and it will be tested by the British people at that point.”
“The nature of devolved government, whether to Scotland, Wales or wherever, will be part of that. I conclude by saying to those calling for a second referendum, “Be careful what you wish for.” People have to understand the status quo, which is that we are leaving the EU. Ultimately, if the proposal in the petition were to be successful and a second referendum were to be put to the British people with a new set of criteria, that would be the status quo hurdle that people would be seeking to overcome with a turnout threshold of three quarters. Everyone recognises that uncertainty is bad for business and unsettling for families. If we were to go down the route of a second referendum, we would introduce a whole load of new uncertainty that would be destabilising for families and bad for business.”
“I will wrap up the points made by the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty) in my conclusion. They are serious questions, and I do not pretend that I am an expert on regional devolved Government. I have come from London government, and I know that the settlement is different in various parts of the country. I will not try to second-guess how that might play out. There will be a lot of legislation, and we are going to be very busy, there are no two ways about that, but as has been said, the referendum result is not like declaring independence from a colonial power—or not in all respects. In some respects it is, in that the future is by definition unwritten. Political parties go into general elections outlining their visions for the future, and they are tested by the electorate.”
“The hon. Gentleman mentions a number of criticisms of competition in the university sector, but does he not agree with Lord Mandelson, who said in his response to the Government White Paper: “I welcome this focus on the range of universities…as they are essential for social mobility”?”
“My alma mater, the University of West London, has relentlessly nurtured a relationship with the industries into which its graduates go. It tailors its courses to the needs of those industries and there is a real symbiotic relationship between the industries and the university. Is that a model we should be looking to expand across our higher education sector?”
“One of the lessons that I took from the Chilcot report was about a habit that we who have been to Sandhurst had beaten out of us: starting with our aim and retrofitting justifications to suit that. At this time of change in our national leadership, would my hon. Friend welcome any calls that might be made to the new Prime Minister to have a robust team of people to provide counter-narratives at times of key decision making, to test hypotheses and to make sure that when difficult decisions have to be made, that is done in the best possible way?”
“That conflict saw a huge increase in Royal Artillery numbers, and it is estimated that 800,000 men served as Gunners and 48,499 of those Gunners gave their lives in the conflict. The Great War was often known as the Gunners’ war.”
“Until 1855, the Royal Artillery was commanded through the Board of Ordnance rather than via the War Office, which meant that the Gunners had a completely separate chain of command from the gun line itself right up the monarch of the time, who was the Captain General. This separate chain of command led to the Gunners getting a reputation for being rather independent minded, which led to the following quote, attributed to Wellington: “I despair of my army. I truly do. The infantry do not understand my orders, the cavalry do not obey my orders, and the artillery make up their own orders.” Unfortunately, the bicentenary of the Gunners and the Sappers was not celebrated properly because it fell in the middle of the first world war.”
“In the first verse of their national anthem “The Star-Spangled Banner” are the following lines, and if you will forgive me, I think it is only fair that I give them my best rendition: “And the rocket’s red glare, the bombs bursting in air, Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there”. Now, I have been told that in order to sing in the Chamber one requires a music and entertainment licence, but as that was neither musical nor entertaining I think I got away with it. The rockets that provided the “red glare” immortalised in the American national anthem were the Congreve rockets fired by the Rocket Troop of the Royal Horse Artillery, and I think that is pretty cool.”
“It was during the Napoleonic wars that British gunnery came into its own, and many gunner officers of that era are still famous in the regiment today and include the well-known names of Ramsay, Bull, Lawson, Mercer, and of course Napoleon himself. Napoleon had the great advantage in life of being a gunner but the great disadvantage of ultimately losing the Napoleonic wars—and of being French. It was an incident in the oft-forgotten conflict between Great Britain and America in 1814, a few years before our centenary, that led to millions of Americans singing about my regiment every day. It is interesting that on 4 July—American independence day—we are reminded of that event.”
“It produced “good officers of Artillery and perfect Engineers”. Perfect Engineers? Well, they may think that they are perfect, but I am yet to be convinced. [Interruption.] My hon. Friend the Minister indicates that he is indeed a perfect example of a perfect Engineer. The Royal Horse Artillery was formed in 1793, and officers of other branches of Artillery have had to keep an eye out for their sisters and girlfriends ever since. Artillery technology advanced throughout the 18th and 19th centuries, improving accuracy, range, mobility, reliability and lethality. That tradition of innovation is still alive and well today with the Gunners being at the cutting edge of surveillance, drone technology, communication technology and precision munitions.”
“Those two companies numbered 100 men each, and were headquartered in Tower Place, which later became the Royal Arsenal in Woolwich. The King’s Troop Royal Horse Artillery is still quartered there, maintaining a 300-year unbroken connection with that part of south-east London. The Royal Artillery’s numbers rose to four companies in 1722, when it merged with two independent artillery companies based in Menorca and Gibraltar, once again establishing a long relationship with those islands. The new unit, formed in 1722, was renamed the Royal Regiment of Artillery. A military academy was established in Woolwich in 1720 to provide training for Artillery and Engineer officers. Initially it was a gathering of “gentlemen cadets”, learning “gunnery, fortification, mathematics and a little French”.”
“The use of artillery pre-dates Roman times, when slings, catapults, ballistas and trebuchets were used to project missiles in times of war. Records indicate that Edward III may have used cannon against the Scots in 1327, but there is no doubt that he used five primitive guns against the French at the Battle of Crécy in 1346. Taking pot shots at the Scots and the French: what a way to start a career! In those days, the guns were fired from fortified gun pits dug by the Sappers and miners who were the forefathers of modern military engineers. I bet those early Gunners and Sappers slated each other back then just as vigorously as their modern counterparts do today. It was on 26 May 1716 that the first two permanent companies of Royal Artillery were formed by royal warrant in the reign of George I.”
“This year marks the tercentenary of the formation of my regiment, the Royal Regiment of Artillery, as well as the 90th birthday of our Captain General, Her Majesty the Queen. It also marks the tercentenary of the formation of the Corps of Royal Engineers, with which we Gunners have had a long sibling rivalry. We share much with the Royal Engineers: our mottos, our patron saint, even the red and blue of our rugby kits and regimental ties. I am pleased to say that a Gunner and a Sapper will share tonight’s Adjournment debate. As my hon. Friend the Minister is no doubt more knowledgeable than I am about the history of his corps, I hope that you will forgive me, Madam Deputy Speaker, if I focus on my own regiment, and give him an opportunity to fill in any details about the history of the Royal Engineers that I might miss.”
“We may be the size of a corps, but we maintain the intimacy and camaraderie of a regiment. I am honoured to have served with such wonderful people in such a glorious regiment, and I wish it well for the next 300 years.”
“The trip culminated with a parade, a march-past and the firing of a feu de joie before our Captain General in Larkhill. I was delighted that the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes North (Mark Lancaster), attended the parade, completing the historic circle and representing centuries of Gunners and Sappers working side by side. In conclusion, let me make the point that the Gunners do not have flags or guidons like the infantry or cavalry. The guns of the Royal Artillery are the regiment’s colours. They are the tools of our trade, the badge we wear and our rallying point in battle. Our guns are hugely important to us but, ultimately, just like the Royal Engineers, our most valuable asset is our people. Gunners throughout history and of all ranks have a bond.”
“Friends the Members for Plymouth, Moor View (Johnny Mercer), for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) and for Filton and Bradley Stoke (Jack Lopresti), the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and myself. The Gunners have also produced eight Olympic gold medallists, including Captain Heather Stanning, who won rowing gold in the 2012 games. To celebrate our tercentenary, the Gunners sent our Captain General’s baton from Woolwich to Larkhill, the long way round. This year-long relay, undertaken by every Gunner unit, went via battlefields across the globe where Gunners have fought and died. The baton, commissioned especially for this anniversary, is in the shape of a Napoleonic gun barrel but made of titanium, thus representing both tradition and modernity.”
“Since its formation in May 1716, more than 2.5 million men and women have served as Gunners. Some Gunners are famous for being great military leaders, such as Field Marshal Viscount Alanbrooke, who was Chief of the Imperial General Staff and Winston Churchill’s wartime military leader, but many more are famous for other reasons. The great post-war comedians Frankie Howerd, Spike Milligan and Harry Secombe were all Gunners. Perhaps it is because Gunner officers have to be good at maths that five Chancellors of the Exchequer have been Gunner officers: Anthony Barber; Hugh Dalton; Derick Heathcoat-Amory; Roy Jenkins; and Selwyn Lloyd. My regiment also produced that great proto-Thatcherite Keith Joseph, and, of course, Prime Minister Edward Heath. The Gunners currently give this House five hon. Members: my hon.”
“I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, and he is right in what he says. It would have been remiss had I not also mentioned that the Irish Artillery had a significant part to play. Even after the Act of Union, when the Irish Artillery and the Royal Artillery became one unit, Irish soldiers serving in the artillery and in cap badges right across the Army had a huge role to play in our success. Following on from the hon. Gentleman’s reference to the Battle of the Somme, it is worth remembering that in the famous week-long barrage that preceded that battle the Gunners fired in excess of 1.7 million shells. The second world war saw another great expansion in the Royal Artillery, with more than 1.2 million people serving as Gunners. More people served in the Royal Artillery than in the entire Royal Navy.”
“This issue goes to the heart of the concept of policing by consent. I do not think that anybody who has had any involvement in policing will be unaware of the friction that exists between policing and many members of the UK’s black communities. Does my hon. Friend agree that an explicit step in the direction he suggests will go a long way towards building bridges between UK policing and a very significant minority group in the UK?”
“In the new environment where we are encouraging greater collaboration between the blue-light services, might the fire inspectorate not also want to lean on senior members of the other uniformed blue-light services to add their expertise and to support the inspectorate as part of this multi-agency working?”
“Is it not the case that there are many things in public life—the police, computers, firearms and so on—that have the potential for misuse, but that the potential for misuse is not a reason to eradicate them from public life? It is a reason to ensure there is a robust framework and—this is the point my right hon. and learned Friend is making—a proper system of penalties for misuse, rather than just scrapping a whole capability because of potential future misuse.”
“I have sat patiently while, on a number of occasions, the hon. Lady has referred to elected councillors being elected to fire authorities. Can she clarify, for the edification of the House and the public, that no elected councillors are elected to the fire authority in London—which covers her constituency—or, indeed, to the vast majority of fire authorities in the country?”
“I assume that this is entirely my mistake; I probably did not make my question clear enough, and I take full responsibility for that. I will have another crack at this. Can the hon. Lady name any local councillor or London Assembly member who has been elected by the people of Newham to sit on the fire authority?”
“Does my hon. Friend agree that, far from overlooking the attributes of our firefighters, it would be an advantage to local communities if highly trusted, experienced firefighters were given the opportunity to extend their preventive remit to areas such as crime prevention advice as well as fire prevention advice?”
“They were probably aware of where the police headquarters were, although I am being generous when I say that. I suspect that in many parts of the country people might have had a vague idea that the police headquarters would be in the big town—the county town. People in my constituency are aware that the police headquarters were in Chelmsford, but I would be surprised if many were able to name their chief constable and absolutely amazed if any were able to name the local councillors who sat on the police authority.”
“I like clarity; it is a cornerstone of democracy that people can follow the golden thread from the decisions they make at the ballot box, through to the people who make the decisions about the provision of their public services and, ultimately, on to the delivery of those services. This is important, because when things go right in the delivery of those services, people should know who to reward at the ballot box. Perhaps more importantly, if things do not go well, voters should know who they can punish at the ballot box. That is a cornerstone of the democratic model, to which I am sure we all subscribe. Previously, when we had police authorities, there was a break in that golden thread, because people did not know who ran their police force.”
“I am obliged to you for calling me, Madam Deputy Speaker, although I apologise if I leapt to my feet rather more quickly than colleagues had anticipated. I am keen to speak in this debate, having served on the Bill Committee and, for a number of years, as chair of the London Fire and Emergency Planning Authority. I feel that I speak with a fair degree of authority on the implications of different governance models, because the LFEPA had to go through the process of making substantial changes to the London fire brigade and I saw at first hand the widespread misunderstanding of the governance arrangements, both of the London fire brigade, through the London fire authority and to the Mayor, and more widely and nationally.”
“I intend to deal a little later in my speech with some of the financial benefits that come with greater collaboration and co-working in the back office. If the hon. Lady will bear with me, I will return to that point.”
“My hon. Friend raises an important point, which goes to the heart of the fundamental change in the relationship between people in the local community and the police force that represents it. It gives those people an opportunity periodically—once every four years, or indeed sooner—to hold PCCs to account. We have seen an example of where the priorities and the actions of a PCC have fallen below the level of legitimate expectation. That person was then forced to stand down and a PCC by-election took place, which really focused the minds of the people in South Yorkshire about what the role of their PCC should be. That requirement for PCCs to hold themselves to account before the electors goes to the heart of the success of the PCC model, and it is important to expand that success to the fire and rescue service.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for making that point, which reinforces one of my beliefs. We hear a lot of talk in this Chamber about what people want, but all the evidence I have received, including from the extensive research carried out during the changes we made to the London fire brigade in my former role as the chair of the LFEPA, shows that what people really want is certainty. That goes to a point Opposition Members have made about people having quality public provision when they need it, where they need it. We should subordinate structures to the delivery of that agenda. I also believe that the changes proposed by the Government go a long way towards protecting those structures.”
“My view is that we judge people by what they say. I know that there will be indignation from Labour Members, but as we have seen when the Labour party was in government the quality of the delivery of public services is not always totally interwoven with the budgets allocated to them. Indeed, there are massive opportunities to get more for less, and surely that should be the acme of performance.”
“London’s exceptionalism is often held up as the reason why things that happen in London cannot possibly happen elsewhere. I have to say that, having served in office both in London and in Essex, I do not subscribe to that view. There are many things that national Government can learn from what a Conservative administration has done in London. I will go even further and say that London could learn plenty of things from other parts of the country, including from my wonderful county of Essex.”
“Friend the Member for Eddisbury (Antoinette Sandbach), and where they have done less well, and the PCCs will be held to account at the ballot box. When it comes to the delivery of fire and rescue provision, the British people deserve just as much a say as they do on policing, so I am happy to support the Government’s position, and I call on the House to reject the new clause put forward in the name of the shadow Minister.”
“The idea that, somehow, the British public are too dim-witted, or too slow on the uptake, to be able to tell the difference between a copper and a firefighter is an argument that is so bereft of power that it should be disregarded. The British people deserve to know who to punish or to reward at the ballot box in relation to fire and rescue, because, like policing, it is a vital public service. I have no doubt that, next week, we will see a much greater engagement and turnout in the police and crime commissioner elections than we have seen previously because people now understand in more detail what they are voting for. They have seen where the police and crime commissioners have done well, as highlighted in Cheshire by my hon.”
“Before I conclude, I will touch on the concerns that were raised by the shadow Front-Bench team about the single employer model. There are many instances where the employer has very different types of employee in terms of public sector delivery. No one confuses civil servants at the Ministry of Defence with members of the Special Air Service. Ultimately, both are employed by the same organisation; there is no confusion in the minds of the public there. Indeed, in the fire and rescue service and the police force, we have both uniformed and non-uniformed members of staff. The police service has warranted officers, police community support officers and non-uniformed civilian staff, and they are all under the same employer and there is no public confusion about the different roles.”
“After the changes that the London fire authority made, the Mayor of London, who is the budget holder for both the police and fire authorities, made a commitment to protect the London fire budget irrespective of the budgetary award from central Government. He was able to do so, because he could flex his budgets over the two areas. Far from starving resources from fire and rescue to give to policing, he was able to protect fire and rescue by dipping into his broader budget. Therefore, I fundamentally disagree with this idea that a police and crime commissioner who has responsibility for both policing and fire services would automatically and obviously rob Peter to pay Paul. That view is reinforced by the fact—the Minister has stated this from the Dispatch Box on a number of occasions—that the budget lines are separate.”
“In fact, the reason I asked her specific questions is that I know who sits on the London fire authority—I am probably one of the few people in this Chamber or elsewhere who does—and I know that no one from the London borough of Newham, either elected or appointed, is on that authority. When the people of Newham want to cast judgment on the delivery of fire services in that borough, the only person they can either reward or punish at the ballot box is the Mayor of London, who, we should remind ourselves, is also the police and crime commissioner for London. I want to address the hon. Lady’s point about the fire service being starved of resources so that we can support what she feels is the higher-profile policing service.”
“That is a fair point. I have had a number of people talk to me about the speed with which police officers move through posts, so I do not disagree with the hon. Gentleman. Let me drag myself kicking and screaming back to the point that I was trying to make, because I have inadvertently found myself speaking more about policing than about fire and rescue services. I think it is legitimate, because what we have seen in London is a very clear line of accountability. Londoners may not be able to identify their nearest—I do not use the word “local” here—fire authority member. The hon. Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown) mentioned the local councillor on Newham council who has responsibility for fire and safety, but that councillor does not sit on the London fire authority.”
“Does my hon. Friend share my concern that the rush to implement these actions ahead of the directive indicates a desire by the banks to take what seems to be decisive action against a group of people who are quite easy to target, and that the banks will be less keen to take that action against people who are harder to track down? [ Interruption. ]”
“Two weeks ago Justice Leggatt said that Public Interest Lawyers showed “a serious failure to observe essential ethical standards” when it claimed that British soldiers were responsible for the death of a child. Does my hon. Friend agree that this is simply the latest example of the hounding of our forces—something we committed in our manifesto to clamp down on—and that it must now be investigated by the regulator?”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I have noticed that a former Member of this House, Dr Bob Spink, has described himself on a number of occasions, both in print and on his website, as a former Minister. I have checked with parliamentary colleagues who served with him at the time and with the House of Commons Library, but they have been unable to confirm it. Mr Speaker, do you have any remedy or sanction if a former Member of the House inaccurately or deceivingly describes himself as a former Minister?”