Chris Philp
MP for Croydon South · Conservative · United Kingdom
“The Minister mentioned return numbers, but what she did not mention is that the return of 6,000 small-boat migrants in the past two and a bit years amounts to only 8% of illegal immigrants crossing the channel. That is to say, 92% of illegal immigrants crossing get to stay. There is no deterrent whatsoever in that.”
“I cannot give all the many examples, in the interests of time, but they cited one example in which apparently hundreds of Pakistani men claimed to be gay, based on a letter from an individual claiming to be the sexual partner of all of them. That is quite clearly fabricated with the assistance of immigration lawyers.”
“I was on the beaches of northern France just a few weeks ago, waist deep in water as one such dinghy embarked with about 100 illegal immigrants on it, while 10 members of the French gendarmerie nationale, who we pay for—who the Home Secretary pays for—with £660 million of our money, almost all of it unconditional, stood by and did nothing…”
“Numerous rapes have been committed by small-boat illegal immigrants, including the rape of a girl in Nuneaton aged just 12. The Government are using sleight of hand. They are moving illegal immigrants from hotels into apartments, then granting them asylum on an industrial scale.”
“I thank my constituency neighbour, the Minister for Policing and Crime, for advance sight of her statement. I am sure that we all agree that the right to protest is a fundamental part of our democracy, but the right to protest should never be violently exercised or cause serious disruption to other people.”
“Since the general election, over 80,000 illegal immigrants have crossed the channel, all illegally and all unnecessarily, because France is a safe country—nobody is fleeing persecution in France. Almost 20,000 have crossed this year alone, and 625 crossed yesterday, with more coming in the early hours.”
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“By the way, many other European countries, such as Portugal, Greece, Germany, the Netherlands and others, do strike that balance in a variety of different sectors—I am not talking just about fire—and have legislation that is fully compatible with the European convention on human rights and strikes precisely that reasonable, proportionate balance: that is what we are seeking to do here. Just to return to the points that I was making, I have talked a little bit about control rooms, and I was just explaining, before taking the intervention, that decisions on the number of staff required to fulfil those control room functions will be for individual fire and rescue authorities to take on a bespoke, case by case basis.”
“The hon. Gentleman is referring to fire stations typically in sparsely populated rural areas, whereas in urban areas firefighters tend to be on regular salaries. The purpose of the regulations is to make sure we do not have to rely on good-will decisions with quite a high threshold and no guarantee that firefighters on strike, who would normally be at the fire station and particularly in busy urban stations, would necessarily be there. If the house of anyone here or of any of their constituents were on fire and it was a strike day, they would want to know that their house would not burn down. We are trying with the regulations to strike a reasonable balance between the right of firefighters to go on strike and the right of the public not to suffer serious damage and threat to life.”
“Well, it is set out in the consultation response. But, if the right hon. Gentleman is asking about how many strikes there have been—[Hon. Members: “No.”] Well, perhaps the right hon. Gentleman should restate his question; I was not quite following it.”
“The right hon. Gentleman will be aware that, in the past—about 10 years ago and, again, about 10 years before that—very considerable military assets were deployed in order to provide cover when there was a large-scale fire strike.”
“I will in just a moment. It is worth saying that the assets that are possessed by the military today are not the same; their number of firefighting appliances is lower than it was 10 or 20 years ago. So, whereas—”
“I will happily give way again in a minute, if the right hon. Gentleman wants, after I have given way to my hon. Friend the Member for Dover, but the point is that the military assets available 10 or 20 years ago, such as the green goddess fire engines, for example, are not available today.”
“The Committee knows this, but, just for clarity, we are not proposing, of course, to ban strikes. That is not what is being proposed here. We are simply setting out, in this area, as in others, a minimum level of cover that must be provided, even during a strike, to make sure that the public are kept safe and to avoid the tragic fatalities that my hon. Friend the Member for Dover just set out to the Committee a moment ago.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for a characteristically excellent intervention. First, I do, of course, echo and share the tribute that she paid to the brave firefighters up and down the country, who put themselves in the line of danger every day to keep the rest of us safe. I think the whole Committee, on both sides, would echo that sentiment. The examples that my hon. Friend gave about loss of life during previous fire strikes eloquently and powerfully answer the intervention made by the right hon. Member for Warley. They illustrate that, even when we had far more extensive military firefighting assets available—which we do not any more—none the less, life was still lost. What we are talking about here is ensuring that life and property—because both are important—are protected, even when a strike takes place.”
“That might be, for example, where a significant fire safety issue is uncovered in a block of residential flats that necessitates same-day attention. Individual fire and rescue authorities will be able to determine individually how much cover will be required for that purpose. We think that that is likely to be minimal because we accept that it is reasonable that routine fire safety work, routine inspections and routine visits do not happen if there is a strike. Those are not essential activities; they are not essential for public safety—apart from in the emergency situation that I just described—so we accept and understand that those activities would not happen on the day of a strike.”
“Just to complete the point that I was making a moment ago about the 73% level and the assets relating to national resilience, as with other provisions in the regulations, fire and rescue authorities will consult with trade unions and determine the number of staff required to meet the minimum service level should strike action occur. Of course, I hope that the Fire Brigades Union and other unions engage constructively with that process when the time comes. The third and final element of the minimum service level is to provide cover for urgent fire safety issues. The regulations set out that fire and rescue services will be expected to have staff available to rectify any emerging issues that pose an imminent risk to life and would normally require a same-day response.”
“Well, it may be that my hon. Friend the Member for Dover can set out further particulars of the incidents that she referred to, but it would seem to me to be deeply concerning when a reduction in strike cover occurs and fatalities follow; that is something that should properly concern all of us. When it comes to something as serious as fire, where life and property are at risk, I think it is proper that Parliament ensures that we have done everything we can to make sure that the public are kept safe, even during strike action. Indeed, it would be a dereliction of duty were we not to do so.”
“As I have set out, the minimum service level in the regulations is designed to balance the right of workers to take strike action with the right of the public to have life and property protected. We believe that this is a proportionate step to ensure the protection of public safety on strike days. It follows the practice in other European countries, not just in the fire sector but in a number of other sectors. On that basis, I commend the regulations to the Committee.”
“Just to be clear, when it comes to fire safety advice, it is in scope, but only to the extent that there is a concern that there is an imminent or potentially imminent risk to life. If, for example, there was a serious fire safety issue that was suddenly uncovered in a block of flats, as I mentioned in the example, and it was considered that that risk needed to be addressed immediately—no fire but a risk that needed to be quickly addressed—that should be covered even on a strike day. However, we accept that routine fire inspections would not occur on a strike day, because they are not urgent or essential on that day, but can wait for another time, after the strike is over.”
“The hon. Gentleman says that there is a recruitment and retention crisis, yet we have record numbers of police officers—149,566 last March, as I may have mentioned previously. We also have record numbers of doctors and nurses; indeed, today the NHS has about 60,000 more staff than it did a year ago. We have record police, doctors and nurses. That is hardly a recruitment and retention crisis, is it?”
“We are getting a bit off topic, so I do not want to stretch your patience, Ms Fovargue, but the hon. Gentleman mentioned the attrition rate, which is about 6% overall for the police. Half of that is to do with when people reach the 30-year retirement level. Only 3%, roughly, is early exit prior to the retirement date, which, in comparison with most sectors, is extremely low.”
“That is the balance that we seek to strike in the regulations, which is why I urge the Committee to vote for them. Question put.”
“The shadow Minister asked the Committee rhetorically whose side it is on. We are on the side of balance—of balancing the right to strike on the one hand with, on the other hand, the right of our constituents not to have their house burned down and have no one turn up. I challenge anyone on the Committee: what would they say to a constituent if, on a strike day, their house was on fire—it is not a major incident as defined; I just read out the definition—and no one came? I say there is no good answer to that question. The responsible thing for us to do as legislators is to legislate to strike that balance, and to allow strike action—there is of course a right to strike, as the right hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington said—as far as is possible without jeopardising public safety or allowing threats to life or to property.”
“One or two Members mentioned voluntary return-to-work agreements. First, I should stress that they are just that—voluntary—so it is difficult to rely firmly on them. In 2022, when voluntary agreements were discussed and put in place in advance of the potential industrial action in early 2023, which thankfully did not materialise, those agreements covered only major incidents, which were defined as incidents affecting large numbers of people or requiring large-scale resource deployment by the fire and rescue service and at least one other emergency service. I stress that they covered major, large-scale incidents. Such incidents are, thankfully, relatively rare, and it is unlikely that that definition would be met if there was a house fire. That brings me to my final point.”
“The level at which control room service levels will be set will be determined individually, depending on local need, but if a local fire and rescue authority sought to set a 100% requirement, as somebody hypothesised, without good justification and without good reason, that is not a power that the legislation provides for. We have heard a little about the recent pay settlements; I do not want to go into this too much because it is not really the topic of this debate, but the shadow Minister mentioned them. Last year, the average public sector pay settlement ran at around about 6.5% to 7%—both police and fire got 7%—and that was in line with, or perhaps even slightly better than, the private sector equivalent, so the suggestion that public sector workers are being unfairly treated by this Government does not bear scrutiny.”
“I will respond briefly to one or two of the points made. On the question from the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Nottingham North, about the armed services, in the past huge numbers of very old green goddess fire engines were available. Although they reached the end of their life, there are obviously still significant capabilities within the armed services that could be deployed against, for example, wildfires, but the extent to which the armed services have adequate capability to replace an entire national fire service is obviously a different question entirely.”
“The functions of the PCC will include, as they do elsewhere, the issuing of a police and crime plan; the setting of the police budget, including the PCC council tax precept; the appointment and, if necessary, suspension or dismissal of the chief constable; and the addressing of complaints about policing services that are non-criminal in nature.”
“I am grateful to incumbent Mayor, Oliver Coppard, for providing his consent to the transfer and to the amendment of his current mayoral electoral term to enable alignment. The PCC for South Yorkshire will continue to exercise the functions until the end of his elected term of office in a few weeks’ time. From the point of taking office on 7 May this year, following the mayoral election, the Mayor will then act as the single directly elected individual responsible for exercising PCC powers, which include the duty to hold the chief constable and police force to account. Of course, the Mayor will be accountable to the people of South Yorkshire through the ballot box.”
“I beg to move, That the Committee has considered the draft South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority (Election of Mayor and Transfer of Police and Crime Commissioner Functions) Order 2024. As always, Mr Dowd, it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. The draft order was laid before the House on 7 February. If approved, it will transfer the police and crime commissioner functions from the South Yorkshire police and crime commissioner to the Mayor of South Yorkshire. It will also bring forward the next scheduled mayoral election in South Yorkshire from 2026 to 2024, with elections then taking place every four years thereafter, so that the South Yorkshire mayoral election cycle is aligned to the existing PCC election cycle across the rest of the country.”
“It is worth saying that, prior to that, I think the consent to this transfer was obtained from the potentially outgoing police and crime commissioner, the directly elected Mayor and all of the local authorities in the area concerned, but we also consulted the public, as we were legally obliged to do. Some 3,000 responses were received, and they were carefully considered prior to the decision on whether to lay this order.”
“Part 1 of the Government’s review of the role of PCCs cemented the Government’s view that, as I just set out, bringing public safety functions together under the leadership of a directly elected combined authority Mayor brings together levers in one set of hands and enables a joined-up approach to the prevention of crime. The levelling-up White Paper published a couple of years ago set out the Government’s aspiration to have combined authority Mayors taking on that PCC role where feasible, as I just set out. As required by section 113 of the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009, the Home Secretary launched a public consultation on the proposed South Yorkshire police and crime function transfers, which ran for six weeks from 20 December 2023 until 31 January.”
“Because the Mayor tends to have a higher profile, typically has a bigger budget and can reach into other bits of the public sector, they are able to deal with issues such as reoffending and better co-ordinate with local authorities than a PCC acting alone. As I was saying, as well as the things that I listed before that intervention, the PCC also commissions services for victims and vulnerable people and does partnership working across the whole criminal justice system in the way that I described. There is, then, a general direction of travel not just in South Yorkshire but throughout the country to try, where the boundaries are coterminous and where directly elected Mayors exist, to have the directly elected Mayor also exercise PCC powers. That already happens in a number of large cities.”
“Operationally, cross-border co-ordination is a matter for the chief constable, but ensuring join-up is something that a Mayor exercising PCC powers could and should do, so I agree with the hon. Gentleman’s point. More widely than that, because a Mayor exercises quite a wide range of powers—although that depends on the exact mayoralty—they are typically better able to co-ordinate with other bits of the public sector in their area than a regular police and crime commissioner can. We discussed that just a few days ago, perhaps even in this very room, in relation to the West Midlands, and the Mayors in London, Greater Manchester and elsewhere already exercise PCC powers.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention but, as he will know, when a Government Department or other public body conducts a consultation, that is not done as a sort of referendum in which the responses are added up and the view with the biggest percentage of responses prevails. First, it is worth saying that 3,000 responses is a small proportion of the population of South Yorkshire; it is a tiny fraction of 1%. But as I say, when a consultation is conducted—not just in this context, but in any across Government—it is not a case of adding up the results and whoever gets the most responses winning, as it were. The responses are considered substantively on their merits. The point is the quality of the argument, not simply the number. I am not saying that the number is disregarded, but it is not determinative.”
“On the number of responses, which was 3,000, I had the opportunity to look up the population of South Yorkshire while my hon. Friend was speaking. According to Wikipedia, to the extent that that can be considered reliable—I am sure my colleagues will correct me if this is wrong—the population is 1.4 million. Does that sound about right?”
“I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. I know that he is a steadfast champion for his constituents, always speaks his mind and says what he thinks is right for his neighbourhood, exactly as he should. I have every respect for him for doing so in such clear and forthright terms. I will try to address the two points that my hon. Friend raised. First, the consultation was not done just for the sake of it; it was done, as all consultations are, to genuinely test the arguments. However, it is not the case that any Government Department—the Home Office or any other—is simply bound to take the majority response by number. It is about the quality of the arguments. That applies across all Departments. It is not a referendum.”
“I am an MP in London where, unfortunately, Sadiq Khan does not, but that is about the individual, not the structure of the office. Our view is that structurally combining the powers—it is not about the individual—allows them to be exercised more effectively because the Mayor exercising them has access to multiple levers. Should the right person be elected, they will be more effective. My hon. Friends the Members for Rother Valley (Alexander Stafford) and for Don Valley (Nick Fletcher) have serious concerns about the incumbent Mayor, but the source of redress is the ballot box. That is why I was out in the rain in Croydon on Saturday delivering leaflets and exposing Sadiq Khan’s appalling record.”
“Three-thousand responses out of 1.4 million is 0.2%. I do not think it is possible to say that that is a representative sample; but even if it was, a consultation is not a referendum and we look at the substance of the arguments. My hon. Friend’s second point was that the Mayor has a lot of responsibilities. Obviously, my colleagues are sceptical about whether the Mayor is doing a particularly good job in other areas; transport has been mentioned. As with any elected office—a Member of Parliament, a local council leader, a PCC on a stand-alone basis or a Mayor—it all comes down to the individual. Some Mayors are effective and others are not. I am sure we all agree that Andy Street and Ben Houchen do a fantastic— [ Interruption. ] Is the shadow Minister rolling his eyes? They do a fantastic job as directly elected Mayors.”
“I thank the hon. Gentleman for his advice. I am, as always, extremely grateful. I have already drawn attention to the general policy direction of the Government and other mayoral authorities where PCC powers are exercised by the Mayor. I know there are strong feelings and I have every respect for my colleagues who are speaking up, but I commend the order to the Committee for the reasons that I have set out.”
“I will be brief in my concluding remarks. I thank Members on both sides of the Committee for their contributions, and I fully understand that strong feelings are engaged. I will just make one or two points in response to the issues raised in this debate. First, on the question of funding, I can confirm to the Committee that the police element of the budget is ringfenced. That is made clear in the order; it is a separate account. Money given to either the police and crime commissioner or the Mayor exercising those powers by the Government in the form of the block grant or raised by the police precept is ringfenced to be spent only on policing. That ringfence is legally in place.”
“There is a hard-edged legal requirement—the breach of which would be unlawful—to spend the Home Office block grant and the money raised by the precept only on police and crime activity. A failure to do that would be unlawful. That is just a black and white legal requirement.”
“On the other hand, the Committee is being invited to give significant weight to 0.2% in the consultation. Obviously it is internally contradictory to say that 0.2% is significant but 24% is not significant.”
“Mayors are entitled to appoint a deputy Mayor for policing—Sadiq Khan does that in London—but the Mayor is still ultimately responsible. For example, the Mayor personally sets the precept and exercises the power to hire and fire the chief constable. The Mayor personally exercises a number of powers, and they can appoint a deputy Mayor for policing, as Sadiq Khan has in London—he has appointed Sophie Linden. However, the Mayor ultimately takes the key decisions. The Mayor is accountable at the ballot box, and ultimately the people—the public—can kick out the Mayor if they think they are doing a bad job. Some slightly contradictory arguments have been advanced about election turnouts. On the one hand, it has been said that the 19% turnout for the PCC election and the 24% turnout for the mayoral election were low.”
“That brings me to the matter of accountability and blaming the Government, which I was going to mention. When a Mayor exercises police and crime commissioner powers, as Sadiq Khan does in London, they set the element of the precept that funds the police in the same way as a police and crime commissioner. That is a decision for the Mayor when they exercise PCC powers, in the same way that Sadiq Khan—I use that example because I am a London MP—sets the police precept in London. In Kent, of course, it will be Matthew Scott, my hon. Friend’s police and crime commissioner. If this change is agreed, the Mayor of South Yorkshire would set the police precept in South Yorkshire, the money raised from which would be strictly and legally ringfenced to be spent on policing purposes.”
“Consolidating the role, so that the Mayor can exercise a wide range of powers and co-ordinate with partners, is the right structure. That is why we have done it in London and Greater Manchester, and why we are in the process of doing it in the West Midlands, which covers Birmingham as well. Obviously the four local authorities, the current PCC and the current Mayor agree with this. Taking a sober step back, I just think that this structure is one that works, regardless of some of the problems that might exist with the current personality.”
“I know that there are some concerns about the way in which that individual has done their job, and I understand that people have strong feelings about that, but we need to legislate for the right structure—a structure that makes sense—and not vote one way or the other because there is an individual who might not be doing a very good job. Where Mayors do a good job, such as Ben Houchen or Andy Street—there might also be some Labour ones, although I cannot immediately think of one; the hon. Member for Nottingham North is free to intervene and suggest one—we know that they can be really effective. As parliamentarians, we have to legislate for the right structures—ones that are right in perpetuity, regardless of the individual—and trust the electorate to make the right choice. It is our view, and my view, that this is the right structure.”
“Friends are—and as I am, to some extent—that the turnout in PCC elections is not as high as we would like, then giving the person who holds those powers, in this case the Mayor, as many powers as possible would give them a higher public profile and motivate more people to turn out and vote. The turnout in the mayoral election in London is likely to be getting on for 50%, or maybe 40%—who knows exactly, but it will be quite high—because the Mayor of London exercises such significant powers, and I think that improves democratic accountability. My last point is that Members have been very decent in not being too personal to the current incumbent of the South Yorkshire mayoralty, and I will not be either.”
“My hon. Friend has made his point. In a sense, the fact that the turnout in the PCC election was lower than the turnout in the mayoral election by five percentage points suggests that combining the two would give the person who exercises those powers the highest possible profile and real authority over these issues, such as transport, housing and policing in London. Indeed, that is why it is done across the country, in London and Manchester, and why we are in the process of seeking to do it in the West Midlands. No one would dispute that, for example, the Mayor of London, the Mayor of the West Midlands or the Mayor of Greater Manchester, Andy Burnham, have a significant profile, because they exercise significant powers. If we are concerned, as my hon.”
“First of all, Mayors with a very high profile—particularly Andy Burnham and Sadiq Khan—do exercise PCC powers. Andy Street has asked for the PCC powers in the West Midlands. He believes, I think rightly, that exercising those powers will enable him to do a better job. We agree with Andy Street.”
“We are trying to implement those structures where there is coterminosity. That is not physically possible in all places. For example, the shadow Minister mentioned the proposed combined authority across Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire. At the moment, those are two separate police forces. Unless the police forces are merged, it is impossible to do that. We cannot have the same solution across the whole country unless we start merging police forces or changing police force boundaries. We can do the best possible given the current boundaries. If Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire want to come forward and propose a merger of their police forces, obviously they are free to do that.”
“The shadow Minister is shaking his head. I suspect there would be a lot of local opposition to doing that. It is impossible to have the combined Mayor of the east midlands exercising PCC powers, because there are two different police forces. We just physically cannot do it there, but we can do it in other places. Just because we cannot do it everywhere—”
“I am going to finish up now. We should do it where we can. Where it is done—in London and Greater Manchester—it is working. Andy Street wants it in the West Midlands. I know there are issues with the individual concerned in this case, which we do not need to talk about any further, but we should vote for the right structure and the right principle. While I completely respect the views that my colleagues are advancing, the Government think this is the structure that is right in perpetuity.”
“I beg to move, That the Committee has considered the draft West Midlands Combined Authority (Transfer of Police and Crime Commissioner Functions) Order 2024. As always, it is a huge pleasure to serve under your august and benign chairmanship, Sir Graham—I trust it will be benign, although perhaps I should not speak too soon. The draft order was laid before the House on 7 February. If approved, it will transfer the police and crime commissioner functions from the current west midlands PCC to the Mayor of the West Midlands. That would happen following the next mayoral election in the west midlands, which is scheduled for Thursday 2 May 2024, and maintain direct democratic accountability for policing and crime in the west midlands.”
“Their functions will include issuing a police and crime plan; setting the police budget, including the PCC council tax precept requirements; appointing and, if necessary, suspending or dismissing the chief constable; addressing complaints about policing services; providing and commissioning services for victims and vulnerable people; and working in partnership across the whole system, just as a number of Mayors of combined authorities do, including the Mayor of Greater Manchester, which you will be very familiar with, Sir Graham.”
“Thank you, Sir Graham. The incumbent PCC for the west midlands will continue to exercise his functions until his elected term of office ends, serving his term of office in full. The Mayor, from the point of taking office on 7 May, following the mayoral election, will act as the single, directly elected individual responsible for holding the chief constable and the police force to account, and will be directly accountable to the people of the west midlands. The Mayor of the West Midlands will be responsible for holding the chief constable to account in the way a PCC ordinarily would.”
“The question of ultra vires relates to whether the Government have a statutory power to act in a particular situation. The Government quite clearly do have a statutory power to act by bringing forward this order. The judicial review concerns the nature of the consultation, which is a separate question. I can tell the right hon. Lady that the Government believe that the consultation was properly conducted, and we will vigorously and robustly defend the judicial review.”