Liz Saville Roberts
MP for Dwyfor Meirionnydd · Plaid Cymru · United Kingdom
“I speak as the chair of the new justice unions all-party parliamentary group, which hears from six trade unions representing workers across prisons, probation, policing and the courts.”
“Q9. Yr Heliwr in Nefyn is a community-owned pub, and it is buzzing with events fuelled by local beers and food. I have to declare an interest; I have shares in Yr Heliwr, and it makes my husband very happy indeed.”
“It is welcome that the UK is finally banning trade with illegal settlements in Palestine and it is right that we no longer condone economic tolerance for these settlements, which fly in the face of international law and the sovereignty of Palestine.”
“If this is a Union of equals, let me turn to the wildfires that we suffered in Wales and England this summer. The Rhinogydd mountains of Eryri national park are the last true upland wilderness in Wales. They burned for over two weeks in July, causing immeasurable damage to peatlands and wildlife.”
“I appreciate the tone of the Secretary of State’s answer. I note that the Prime Minister said yesterday that change begins with honesty, so let us be honest: harping on about the strength of the Union in the same breath as calling for change is a distraction.”
“Q5. Our new Plaid Cymru Government have laid the foundations for change, showing what Wales can achieve with the powers we have. The Prime Minister says that devolving powers means better public services, and I agree with him, but policing in Wales is still controlled from afar here in Westminster.”
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“I do not know whether the Minister will touch on the Crown Estate, so I am taking the opportunity now. On the point about electricity demand doubling, there is such potential in areas such as Wales and Cornwall, if it so wishes. The concept that the Crown Estate should be so centralised in the United Kingdom works badly in the interests of not only Wales but areas such as Cornwall. What does the Minister tell his Welsh Labour colleagues about why that issue cannot be devolved, when it would make such a difference to our local economies?”
“We live in hope of a ceasefire and the release of the hostages. However, we cannot forget everything that has come before: the mass atrocities on 7 October were followed by 15 months of destruction waged against Gaza’s civilians by the Israeli Government. The Foreign Secretary mentioned how we eradicate extremism. Extremism is also eradicated by justice. Only justice can redress crime. What steps is he taking to support the International Court of Justice and the ICC to hold all perpetrators of war crimes to account? Will he publish the full record of the UK’s political and military involvement in the conflict so far?”
“Member South Holland and the Deepings (Sir John Hayes) for securing this debate. We have it in our power to have Opposition day debates—there are 20 in a parliamentary Session—and that would be a means of bringing a vote to the Floor of the House; I urge those parties that have it within their gift to bring forward an Opposition day debate to do so, to hear those voices and to have it recorded.”
“It is particularly unjustifiable because the ombudsman makes clear in its final report that “finite resources should not be…an excuse for failing to provide a fair remedy.” The level of compensation set out by the ombudsman does not go far enough in the first place. It does little to account for the impact, both financial and otherwise, on affected 1950s-born women. Plaid Cymru has consistently supported compensation of at least level 5 on the ombudsman scale: between £3,000 and £9,950. These were women whose voices were not heard during their careers. That is the experience of many of them and many of us. It is a shameful thing that with a Labour Government in power, their voices remain unheard. The impact on 1950s women deserves more than a meagre apology. I am grateful to the right hon.”
“In Wales different groups, including 1950s Women of Wales and WASPI, have been working tirelessly to force Government action on pension inequality over many, many years. Unlike Labour in government, Plaid Cymru’s support for 1950s-born women has not swayed with the tide. We believe it is inexcusable that the Labour Government have refused the recommendation of their own regulator, the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman, to provide compensation, and justified that by saying what we have always heard: that the cost would not “be a fair or proportionate use of taxpayers’ money.” Paper justice—justice without compensation or redress —is an insult to a system that bothers to pretend that the ombudsman’s offices can protect the citizen from the incompetence or failures of the state. As things stand, this is not even a tissue of justice.”
“The Labour Welsh Government are responsible for child safeguarding in Wales, and the Home Secretary said that none of the independent inquiry’s 20 recommendations was implemented by the previous Tory Government. Six recommendations applied to Wales, but no new actions were taken there either. Given that her statement rightly puts victims and survivors first, will she tell me how victims and survivors in Wales will now be able to demand a culture of real change?”
“The Secretary of State celebrates funding for Wales yet fails to mention that, outside of the NHS, the Welsh Government Budget is 10% lower in real terms compared with—wait for it—2010. This falls far short of fixing the foundations of collapsing public services. Does she believe that a Budget that leaves Wales with less compared with 14 years ago is really a Budget worth celebrating?”
“I am glad that the Secretary of State has mentioned HS2, because her Government’s Budget confirmed that HS2 will run to Euston, and that stretch alone will cost £9.4 billion. HS2 construction work also means that passengers from Wales will face disruption, as trains will be diverted away from Paddington for seven years. She previously said that HS2 is “no longer in existence.” Does she stand by this statement, given that Welsh passengers will bear the huge costs of this project?”
“Four schoolgirls suffered sexual abuse by their headteacher, Neil Foden, who was sentenced in July to 17 years with a two-thirds tariff. The Crown Prosecution Service now tells me that Foden will instead spend half his sentence in prison, because the most serious of his crimes can only be sentenced to 14 years. Will the Minister meet me to discuss how to safeguard the victims, whose abuser was in a position of trust, because they live in fear of his early release?”
“I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion Preseli (Ben Lake) for securing the urgent question. Electricity supplies have yet to be restored to some Gwynedd communities, more than 72 hours after the red weather warning. The switch from copper to digital technology means that all landline telephones will need electricity to work in the future, as do mobile phone masts. These matters are reserved to Westminster—they are not devolved—so will the Minister speak to her colleagues in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, and commit to a Government assessment of the resilience of mobile and landline communication in Wales and the adequacy of the support given by BT and EE to elderly and vulnerable people during the switchover process?”
“WealthTek was placed into administration by the Financial Conduct Authority after losing £80 million of its clients’ money. FCA-appointed administrators are now deducting fees from victims’ compensation. My constituents Dominic Knights and his wife have between them lost thousands of pounds. What is the Treasury doing to safeguard the £85,000 compensation limit?”
“Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lefarydd. I welcome the measures announced today. I also want to take the opportunity to pay tribute to Rhianon Bragg, who I understand the Minister has met. She has been a tireless campaigner, in spite of extraordinary and horrific experiences. I also pay tribute to the Suzy Lamplugh Trust and its work. I welcome what the Minister said about Cheshire constabulary; I visited the unit there. Specifically in Wales, for us to be able to establish multi-agency units within police forces, we will have to recognise that part of the membership, such as the psychologists, will be funded at a devolved level through health. Can she assure me that that will be possible for the four forces in Wales?”
“Today, she is on respite in a hospice in Holyhead, which is 50 miles away from her home. That is the reality of people’s lives as things stand. We need a change in the law.”
“Surely this House can ensure that there is both cross-party and small-party representation on the Committee, rather than conventional party proportionality—of course, today we have a free vote. The implications for Wales, where health is devolved, cry out for proper consideration. I support the hon. Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi) in her concerns about the Sewel convention and the need for a legislative consent motion in the Senedd. These concerns are equally true not just for Wales but for remote and deprived communities where ill and dying people already suffer disproportionately inadequate health services. To close, I credit Iola Dorkins of Morfa Nefyn whom I have known for over 30 years and who is presently dying of motor neurone disease. She wears a brace that her husband has adapted to make more comfortable.”
“We know, in the aftermath of covid, how little has changed. Death as an institutional convenience has never been, and never will be, right. It is our duty to demand good palliative care and address the institutional and resource barriers to it, but that is not a licence to sidestep today’s moral question. The people of England and Wales now expect us as legislators to provide an answer in principle. It is our duty to provide that answer not only in principle, but in process. With that in mind, I will support the Bill on Second Reading if there is a guarantee of sufficient scrutiny to stitch together a complete garment out of what is presently threads and patches that could, as we have heard, be rent asunder in court. If Committee scrutiny cannot make the Bill robust, I will reconsider my support in future votes.”
“Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Llefarydd. I think the starting point for many of us today is how to resolve the dilemma of what we want for ourselves against the fear of enabling potentially terrible consequences for others. There is a rational fear of the reality of coercion, what drives decisions within families and what individuals feel is best for their family. There is a rational fear of how institutional pressures, lack of resources and, appallingly, the culture in the NHS might ramp up the convenience of death as an affordable option. This is not a new fear. The hon. Member for York Central (Rachael Maskell) mentioned Baroness Neuberger’s review of the Liverpool care pathway, which said: “In order that everyone dying in the acute sector can do so with dignity, the present situation has to change.” That was in 2013.”
“Act 1974 already places a duty on employers to ensure the health, safety and welfare of employees at work, but it is 50 years old and does not explicitly mention gender-based violence. Harnessing the toughest mechanism we have in the workplace would establish a structured approach to safeguarding women at work and make a tangible difference. I should be very grateful if the Minister would respond at the close of this debate to that proposed Bill.”
“My presentation Bill would address a gap in the law after the UK ratified the International Labour Organisation’s convention 190 in 2022. It introduces clear, actionable duties for employers to protect workers from violence and harassment through risk assessments, policy development and training. It brings sexual harassment and violence into protections already in place for health and safety at work and under, importantly, the regulatory oversight of the Health And Safety Executive, which will be mandated to create an enforceable framework, holding employers to account. All means should be at our disposal to both mitigate and ultimately stop gender-based harm. The Health and Safety at Work etc.”
“It is a fact that sexual harassment and violence happen in the workplace, yet protections for workers are limited. The Worker Protection (Amendment of Equality Act 2010) 2023 is a laudable effort in creating a preventable duty for employers to take reasonable steps to prevent sexual harassment in the workplace, but as enforcement can only take place after an experience of sexual harassment, the Act is limited in its protection of workers from different forms of violence. We need more robust measures and better employer accountability. The brilliant teams at the Suzy Lamplugh Trust and Rights of Women agree, and together we are presenting a Bill that seeks to do just that—the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 (Amendment) Bill.”
“The ICC has issued arrest warrants for crimes including direct attacks on civilians. Open-source information shows that, on average, Royal Air Force reconnaissance flights are going over Gaza nearly four times a day. Although we all seek the information necessary to gain the release of the hostages, how confident is the Minister that the information gathered from those flights and shared with Israel has not been used to facilitate any attacks on civilians?”
“Q3. I know how much professional care work means to the Deputy Prime Minister. Cariad Care Homes in Porthmadog tells me that it will not be able to absorb the additional exorbitant costs imposed by her Government’s Budget. It tells me that they pose a threat worse than covid to the business. Will she therefore personally intervene, so that her Government at least make care providers exempt from the rise in employers’ national insurance contributions?”
“Earlier this year, Avanti West Coast services on the north Wales main line had on-the-day cancellations of more than 20%. Its timetable is yet to return to pre-covid standards, and there were no direct connections with London on Saturday. Given that the Avanti West Coast contract runs to 2026, what is the Secretary of State doing to ensure a reliable mainline service for the people of north Wales?”
“Will the right hon. Lady join me in asking the Secretary of State, who did not allow me to intervene, whether the confirmation that agricultural funding for Wales is to be Barnettised means that the allocation will drop from 9.4% to 5.6%? According to the Farmers Union of Wales, that is a drop of £146 million and more. This will also affect Scotland and Northern Ireland, so we need clarity on this issue for Welsh farmers.”
“The Secretary of State talks about respecting the devolution settlement. Mark Drakeford wrote to the Chancellor before the Budget asking for a review of Wales’s Barnett formula for transport funding, which had fallen from 81% in 2015 to 36% in 2021. However, the Budget revealed a further cut in the Welsh transport comparability factor, which is now down to 33%. How come strengthening the Union under Labour means that every major rail project in England results in Wales losing out?”
“The British Medical Association in Wales says that GP funding has decreased as a percentage of the Welsh Government’s budget by over 2.6% since 2005. Treflan surgery in Pwllheli cannot afford to fill key staff roles, and Budget measures will cost it an extra £19,000. The Secretary of State for Wales knows the state of the NHS in Wales, so why is she instrumental in Labour at both ends of the M4 threatening GP surgeries?”
“All Welsh women in prison are held in England, and being far from home adds to the emotional torture of separation from children, but we cannot assess the extent of the separation without public access to Wales-specific disaggregated data. Will the Secretary of State commit to making this information public so that we can ensure that pregnant women and mothers and children have the proper support they need?”
“There are no public flights from north Wales to London, so we depend on trains. Travellers on Avanti West Coast’s north Wales service endure chronic overcrowding, reduced direct services to London since covid, rolling stock breakdowns and on-the-day cancellations three to four times higher than the rest of the Avanti network. That franchise runs to 2026. What are the Government doing to make sure that Avanti offers the people of north Wales and their economy a decent—”
“We should not therefore think that resentencing is just around the corner, even when we consider the Prime Minister’s background in criminal justice and the comments from Lord Blunkett recently, but please do not give up hope now. Hope is a precious thing, and pressure from campaigners pays off. For example, we have licence changes coming into effect on Friday that will mark the end of a living nightmare for at least one person, who I thank for sharing his story with me earlier. I do not need to remind Members that it was a Labour Government who introduced this sentence, which is tantamount to torture, and a Tory Government who abolished it, albeit in a botched way. We have a golden opportunity to end this living nightmare for so many prisoners and their families once and for all.”
“On the left and the right, on the Front and Back Benches, they have politicians in Parliament who will not give up until the problem that Parliament created back in 2003 has been fixed. I do not want them to lose hope, but I do not want to give them false hope either. I do not want them to think that Lord Woodley’s Bill—I know that he will not mind me saying this—will in itself make resentencing a reality. No—the reality is that the power lies with Government, not with Backbench MPs, nor with Lords or Ladies or anyone who is not in government. It is up to the Government to change the law. I am not sure it really looks like the Government presently have the political appetite for resentencing, shameful though that may be.”
“I most certainly agree with commentators such as Peter Stefanovic that this is a matter of conscience, and that all parties should therefore allow a free vote on IPP reform. Finally, I will say something through the Chair but directly to people serving on IPP in prison or in the community, and to their friends and families. I know that many of them are watching and listening to this debate, and I know that there are some in the Gallery now. When I speak to them, I want them to know that there are many of us here in Parliament who will not stop calling out this injustice. In both the Commons and the Lords, cross-party parliamentarians will stand up for them.”
“I therefore urge the Minister to listen to the UN and not to ignore such international opinions, as his predecessors were sometimes prone to do. I also put on record my support for the private Member’s Bill introduced in the other place by Lord Woodley, the Imprisonment for Public Protection (Re-sentencing) Bill, which is listed for Second Reading next month. The Bill, which mirrors the amendment moved by Sir Bob Neill to the Victims and Prisoners Bill in the last Session, calls on the Government to set up an expert committee to advise on resentencing and then enact its advice. I urge the Government to back this important Bill or, if they find the full-fat version of resentencing too much to take, to move an amendment in Committee to make it palatable.”
“That is why the Minister has nothing to fear from a resentencing exercise along those lines, as suggested by the Justice Committee. It is no wonder that the United Nations special rapporteur on torture, Dr Alice Jill Edwards, who I had the pleasure of meeting last year with the justice unions, has called for “adequate and appropriate reparations” for IPP prisoners and their families to compensate them for an “inhumane” punishment that “often amounts to psychological torture”. She also warned that “citing public safety as the reason not to immediately resentence IPP prisoners…is misleading”, because “the UK, like any society with a strong rule of law, has measures to protect the community after prisoners are released.” That is fundamental to a society that believes, as I am sure we all do, that that is how justice should be served.”
“As explained by the Centre for Crime and Justice Studies, which I thank for its briefing, the expert committee “could recommend, for example, a staggered release schedule to give probation adequate time to prepare, or prioritisation for those with the shortest tariffs or longest time served over-tariff, or even partial resentencing starting with those previously considered safe for release by the Parole Board.” That last option would of course include prisoners who had previously been released but since recalled, often for no further offence. The expert panel might recommend any of those models or something else entirely, but—this is important—the Government would be free to pick and choose the option that is most palatable politically and manageable in the present crisis of prisons and probation.”
“If we are to be honest, we must first admit it beggars belief that we are still having to discuss this matter today. I will not reiterate the 2022 Justice Committee report recommendations, but it should be noted that the Committee recommended that the Government convene an “expert committee” to advise on any resentencing exercise. That point needs to be repeated—it has possibly been lost in recent debate—because it would of course be up to the Government to appoint such an expert committee, which would include a judge to explore resentencing, and to decide whether to follow its recommendations.”
“Diolch yn fawr iawn. I congratulate the hon. Member for Southgate and Wood Green (Bambos Charalambous) on securing this debate, and it is an honour to follow the speeches so far. I rise as the co-chair of the justice unions parliamentary group, and I am obliged to speak in this debate because IPP sentences have been raised time and again at our meetings by the trade unions, especially the Prison Officers’ Association and the National Association of Probation Officers. What those unions say is that their members, prison and probation officers, have been placed in an intolerable position because of IPPs. They are made to administer that sentence, which is tantamount to torture, to many of the most vulnerable and damaged people they manage, both in and out of prison.”
“The death rate was horrific, with around 48% losing their lives. One PRU survivor was Edward Bacon of Y Felinheli near Caernarfon in my constituency. The project is keen to reach out to families to collect their stories, so that their loved ones will once again be more than just another name carved on a war memorial. Talking of memorials, the project is also campaigning for a UK memorial here in Westminster. When that comes to fruition—and it will—wreckage from a PRU aircraft will be its centrepiece. That poignant reminder of the courage and horrendous risks faced by PRU airmen was retrieved just last month from a Mosquito aircraft that crashed on Aran Fawddwy in Meirionnydd 80 years ago—”
“Organisations such as Woody’s Lodge and VC Gallery have been particularly hard-hit. That is important. While initiatives such as Op Courage, Op Restore and Op Nova have received new money in England, in Wales they do not exist and we have not seen equivalent funding either, leaving many critical services funded hand to mouth from year to year through grants. This evening, I am also proud to support the campaign for an official memorial to remember and honour the pilots and navigators of the RAF’s Photographic Reconnaissance Unit. That is being organised as we speak by the Spitfire AA810 project. The PRU flew highly dangerous, clandestine missions to take intelligence photos. Its stripped-down planes were unarmed, so as to carry as much fuel as possible. For that reason, the PRU included conscientious objectors among its crews.”
“Core state funding from both the Welsh and UK Governments is necessary to make sure veterans receive proper care in health and housing, which are devolved, as well as reserved matters such as welfare and justice. Some 50% of the veteran population in Wales is over 65 years old and 20% is over 85. Alongside health, the cost of living is a significant challenge for older veterans, and of course military compensation should not be treated as income for the purposes of benefits and pensions. An income disregard should be introduced for the war pensions and armed forced compensation scheme. This is about not just the veterans themselves, but the third sector providers on which veteran support relies so heavily in Wales. Those providers have seen a steep increase in operational costs and reduced funding.”
“In the time that I have I would like to raise a couple of matters particularly relevant to Wales and also say what a delight it is to hear all the maiden speeches this evening. The post of Veterans’ Commissioner for Wales was established two years ago and is held by Colonel James Phillips but his appointment is due to come to an end on 31 December. Please will the Minister in his closing remarks update the House on approval to extend this role? Colonel Phillips’ second annual report was published last month and it makes clear why a commissioner is crucial for veterans in Wales so they are not failed by the jagged edge of devolved and reserved powers.”
“I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for putting these names on the record, because it is essential that we have a memorial for these men who lost their lives so bravely.”
“Neil Foden is in prison for the sexual abuse of four vulnerable schoolchildren. He was the headteacher and strategic headteacher at two secondary schools in Gwynedd. Foden was convicted of 19 charges and sentenced to 17 years in July this year for his abhorrent crimes. The judge said he showed no remorse. Can the Lord Chancellor advise me how to seek assurance for his victims that Foden will not be released until he has served at least two thirds of his sentence?”
“Plaid Cymru, too, pays tribute to Alex Salmond and Sir David Amess. One in five people in Wales are on an NHS waiting list. The Secretary of State for Wales says that a new cross-border NHS plan would bring down Welsh surgery waiting lists, but the Labour First Minister of Wales contradicts her and denies that it has anything to do with bringing down waiting lists. Are they making it up as they go along?”
“I congratulate the hon. Member on securing this debate. As he will know, we are talking about fairness to communities. One of the unfair issues in terms of communities and the cost of electricity is standing charges, whereby households in north Wales and Merseyside pay £100 more a year than those in London. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the present arrangement is fundamentally unfair and that things should be shared more fairly across the nations of the United Kingdom?”
“I extend every sympathy from my party, Plaid Cymru, to Moira, to Alex’s friends and family, and to our colleagues in our sister party, the SNP. I am sure that everyone here sends them our deepest commiserations.”
“Further to those points of order, Mr Speaker. It is difficult to overstate the influence that Alex Salmond has had on the national movements, not just in Scotland but in Wales. He has always been a true friend of my party, Plaid Cymru. He is respected, and will be respected in future, for his extraordinary resilience and optimism. He made the campaign for Scotland’s independence a political reality, and he changed the course of his nation—that is undeniable. As I said, Alex was a friend to Wales, and the hon. Member for Perth and Kinross-shire (Pete Wishart) has already mentioned his many facets. Our former leader, Dafydd Wigley, was going to invite Alex Salmond to speak at a conference on the Welsh poet, R. S. Thomas—I do not know how many people would expect that—as R. S. Thomas and Welsh poetry were one of Alex’s enthusiasms.”
“Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llefarydd. I am sure the Secretary of State will join me in sending every sympathy to the friends and family of the late, great singer and comedian Dewi Pws. On-the-day cancellations on the north Wales to London lines stood at 15.4% in August. We consistently have the highest on-the-day cancellation rates for the entire Avanti network, three to four times higher than the next worst part of the network. How will the Secretary of State use her role to stop Avanti punishing Welsh travellers?”
“Sadly, it seems that between the Welsh Government and Labour in government here in the UK, that service in north Wales is not a priority—we see that in the rate of on-the-day cancellations. The truth is that the railways are broken, and Labour’s plan fails to address the chronic underfunding that is the cause, particularly in Wales. In 2022, the Secretary of State—then shadow Secretary of State—said that it was “utterly illogical” to designate HS2 as an England and Wales project, and called on the Conservatives to “cough up” the billions owed to Wales. Will she cough up now?”
“Dewi Lewis of Penrhyndeudraeth is a former sub-postmaster who endured four months of imprisonment and had to wear a tag for another four months for a crime he never committed. He has not wanted me to raise his case in the Chamber before, because he said that to have his hopes raised and then dashed would destroy him: two weeks ago, he got a letter, I am glad to say, to say that his convictions were quashed. But the damage that has been done to the reputation of the Post Office in rural Wales is now so immense that people are no longer prepared to work in post offices. I welcome that the Secretary of State says that he believes the business model is no longer fit for purpose, but how can we be sure that we will have strategic planning to serve those communities that were once served so well by people like Dewi Lewis?”
“I am very grateful that time has been given for this urgent question. Groups such as the Zaghawa are facing genocide in Sudan. As a result, many young Zaghawan men have fled to Europe and some live in makeshift camps along the French coast. They wish to come to the UK for a particular reason: because Sudan is a former colony of the British empire and they were taught English at school. The likes of Tommy Robinson demonise them for being young and male, but it is precisely because they are young men that they are most at risk of being slaughtered by the Janjaweed. Will the Government look again, because there is a particular historical duty of care towards people from Sudan, and allow safe passage to the Zaghawa who are fleeing genocide?”
“I thank the Paymaster General for his statement, which is testament to the long-fought campaign for victims, including the campaigning done by my constituents Judith Thomas and Ruth Jenkins, whose husband and brother Christopher Thomas died in 1990. The UK Government have announced that the Infected Blood Compensation Authority will work closely with the devolved Administrations to deliver payments in Wales, and the statement outlined meetings that were held with the devolved Health Ministers. In May, the Senedd heard that the UK Government will bear the costs of the scheme in full. Will the Paymaster General today reaffirm that commitment, and assure victims in Wales that they will not face any delays in compensation?”