Liz Saville Roberts
MP for Dwyfor Meirionnydd · Plaid Cymru · United Kingdom
“I speak as the chair of the new justice unions all-party parliamentary group, which hears from six trade unions representing workers across prisons, probation, policing and the courts.”
“Q9. Yr Heliwr in Nefyn is a community-owned pub, and it is buzzing with events fuelled by local beers and food. I have to declare an interest; I have shares in Yr Heliwr, and it makes my husband very happy indeed.”
“It is welcome that the UK is finally banning trade with illegal settlements in Palestine and it is right that we no longer condone economic tolerance for these settlements, which fly in the face of international law and the sovereignty of Palestine.”
“If this is a Union of equals, let me turn to the wildfires that we suffered in Wales and England this summer. The Rhinogydd mountains of Eryri national park are the last true upland wilderness in Wales. They burned for over two weeks in July, causing immeasurable damage to peatlands and wildlife.”
“I appreciate the tone of the Secretary of State’s answer. I note that the Prime Minister said yesterday that change begins with honesty, so let us be honest: harping on about the strength of the Union in the same breath as calling for change is a distraction.”
“Q5. Our new Plaid Cymru Government have laid the foundations for change, showing what Wales can achieve with the powers we have. The Prime Minister says that devolving powers means better public services, and I agree with him, but policing in Wales is still controlled from afar here in Westminster.”
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“Direct action at military bases is nothing new, and we remember with respect the women who marched from Wales to Greenham Common and the thousands of women who joined them. They did not just march; they pulled down fences and criminally damaged infrastructure. So does the Minister recognise the risk implicit in proscribing as terrorist organisations protest groups calling out war?”
“The cost of HS2 has now spiralled to over £100 billion. Welsh taxpayers are paying dearly for this appalling mess, even though we get no benefits whatsoever. Wales is now owed at least £5 billion. This is not going to go away—so when will we get our fair share?”
“It was reported that the Israeli Government planned to kill the leader of Iran over the weekend. As history shows, attempts to collapse a regime with nothing to put in its place risk creating a power vacuum and state collapse. They also risk creating further waves of refugees and instability in the energy market. What assessment has the Foreign Secretary made of those reports and the wider implications that such a strategy would have on the UK?”
“Bear in mind that if that consent is refused in Wales, the Bill, if enacted, can be brought in only in the private sector. That decision lies with the Senedd.”
“Although I appreciate what the hon. Members for Cardiff West (Mr Barros-Curtis) and for Monmouthshire (Catherine Fookes) said about the devolution settlement, and I am glad that we have clarity, there is also a question of respect for decisions already made in the Senedd. As things stand, what does the Senedd have to do? It will be required to pass a legislative consent motion, as required by the Sewel convention, but that can be ignored by the UK Parliament. This legislation effects action in Wales, but the Sewel convention can be overridden, as can an LCM. The second thing that can happen in the Senedd—and this will be expected—is in those areas that are within the power of the Senedd. On commencement, a decision is required on the provisions of the Bill that have devolved competencies: specifically, the NHS in Wales.”
“I welcome new clause 20, which provides clarity on the responsibility of Ministers in the Welsh Government and the UK Government, but there are two issues here: the clarity of powers, and respect across legislatures. I have concerns about amendments 94 and 95, tabled by the hon. Member for Spen Valley, which would amend the amendments moved by the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Sarah Olney) in Committee. What did those amendments do? They ensured a vote in the Senedd to decide when the Bill will come into force in its entirety in Wales. The Scottish Parliament passed stage two of the Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill on 13 May. Such a Bill could not be brought forward in Wales, because Wales has no powers over criminal law. The Bill that we are discussing today could not be brought forward in Wales.”
“I must step back to the reality of how Welsh language speakers can use Welsh in the justice system, which is where the assisted dying review panel comes in. In the justice system, an individual has the right to speak Welsh. If they use Welsh in a court, an interpreter will be used to interpret their words to the people to whom they are speaking. That is not acceptable in this context. This is the most serious and most desperately difficult conversation that people will have, and they must be able not just to speak Welsh, but to be heard in their own language, if all the subtleties and what they really want to express are to be heard. I will not press my amendments 39 to 41, and will support new clause 21 wholeheartedly. I turn to the Senedd powers, particularly those in clause 54.”
“I would dearly like it to be more than “all reasonable steps”, but the reality is that we have to deal with the staff who are available and the language skills that they have. I thank the hon. Member for Spen Valley for tabling new clause 21. It recognises that it is really important for a Welsh-speaking individual to be able to communicate in the language in which they can best express themselves when it comes to the assisting dying review panel, because that is the final stage at which we will recognise whether there are questions of coercion and capacity. I welcome the fact that there are different clinical specialists on the panel; I believe that having an expert psychiatrist and a social worker will help to identify potential questions of coercion and capacity, because they will have different approaches to those questions.”
“Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lefarydd. I rise to speak to amendments 39 to 41, which stand in my name; clause 47, on the provision of information in Welsh and English; and new clause 21, which was tabled by the hon. Member for Spen Valley (Kim Leadbeater). Others have touched on the Welsh language, and I will touch on the settlement in Wales as well. In relation to the Welsh language, we are talking about something that is quite conventional: forms and guidance should be available in written Welsh. However, of much more significance is the opportunity for people to use Welsh—it may well be their first language—in dealing with the provisions in this Bill. My amendments would ensure that “all reasonable steps” are taken to find a co-ordinating doctor and an independent doctor who can question people in Welsh where necessary.”
“There is no long-term vision. Torfaen council has voted unanimously to devolve the Crown Estate to Wales, which means that every local authority in Wales, including every Labour-run council, supports the policy. Does the Secretary of State really believe that the UK Labour Government know better than the entirety of Welsh local government? When Wales speaks with one voice, isn’t it time that Wales’s voice in the Cabinet says the same thing?”
“Was that the answer? It is hardly even looking at the question. In opposition, the Secretary of State for Wales joined Plaid Cymru in condemning the Conservatives for denying Wales £4.6 billion in rail funding. Now in government, she is waxing lyrical about 10% of that, and she was recently content to move the goalposts and deny Wales a further £300 million by classifying the Oxford-Cambridge line as benefiting Wales. I don’t know how they make this up. Does she oppose that new injustice, or was she ignored? Or is it her mission to see Wales short-changed?”
“Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lefarydd. The announcement of just £44.5 million a year for the next 10 years for Welsh rail is Labour’s flimsy fig leaf of an excuse for the multibillion and multi-decade scandal that is HS2. The money announced today is only significant if it matches what Wales will continue to lose from all England-only rail projects, up to now and in the future. Can the Chancellor guarantee that from now on, Wales will receive the full £4 billion HS2 consequential funding, or will she admit that her announcement on Welsh rail funding is nothing but smoke and mirrors?”
“What steps should I take when I have been accused of misleading the House yet Treasury documents suggest that it is the Secretary of State who has done so?”
“On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. During Question Time today, the Secretary of State for Wales—I have endeavoured to contact her about this—accused me of unintentionally misleading the House when I raised concerns about the reclassification of the east-west Oxford to Cambridge rail line as an England and Wales project, thereby denying Wales its full share of consequential funding. She claimed that the previous classification of England-only was merely a Conservative publishing error and insisted that all heavy rail projects would now be classified in such a way—so as to deny funding to Wales. To my surprise, however, the 2025 statement of funding policy still lists the Oxford to Cambridge line as England-only. That contradicts the Secretary of State’s assertion and raises questions about the accuracy of her comments in the House.”
“Penblwydd hapus i chi, Mr Llefarydd—happy birthday to you, Mr Speaker. The nuclear community at Trawsfynydd remains disappointed not to be on GBN’s SMR site and will continue to push for that and also for alternative uses. Security of supply of medical radioisotopes is critical to avoid the ethical nightmare of rationing diagnoses and treatments for a range of diseases including cancer. The Welsh Government’s Project Arthur will see north Wales become the home of a public sector national laboratory to produce medical radioisotopes. What is the Secretary of State’s Department doing to help the Welsh Government to realise Project Arthur at Trawsfynydd?”
“On behalf of the justice unions parliamentary group, I welcome the independent review’s recognition of probation officers and join the call from the National Association of Probation Officers for extra direct investment in staff now. Stable accommodation on release is also key to offender rehabilitation. There are presently no approved premises for women in Wales and women centres struggle for funding, so how will the Justice Secretary improve rehabilitation and life chances for Welsh women in the criminal justice system?”
“On the matter of the radio teleswitch service, there are 790 meters in my constituency still running off RTS, which operates Economy 7 meters, and across Wales there are 11,000. The Government do not know how many households depend on those meters for their heating. In many areas, particularly rural areas, that are off-grid and without any signal, smart meters will not work. How will we ensure that these often very vulnerable people are kept safe?”
“I congratulate the Minister’s BDUK officers, who are really useful. The radio teleswitch service switch-off will affect people, and it is starting to happen on 30 June—just over a month from now. There are 11,000 households in Wales that are presently dependent on it, and if they do not have access to signal, as many off-grid homes do not, it will have an immediate effect on them. I beg the Minister to discuss with his colleagues in the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero how to resolve that for vulnerable people.”
“These incremental improvements are welcome as we begin to move on from some of the illusions of Brexit, although we had all this and far, far more 10 years ago. The Prime Minister once argued that “we should retain the benefits of the single market”. —[ Official Report , 1 May 2017; Vol. 630, c. 879.] Given his recent tendency to dismiss the views of others, what would he say to his younger self?”
“Of course, devolving the entire criminal justice system in Wales, as recommended by three independent commissions, would be the best way to ensure a well-focused approach to victim support. In the meantime, a victims’ commissioner for Wales would ensure that the particular voices and experiences of victims in Wales are properly represented. We need only look to the fantastic work done by the London Victims’ Commissioner, Claire Waxman, to see what is possible when we have a focused approach. The Victims and Courts Bill is a good basis on which to build. There are ways in which it could go further to better support victims, particularly in Wales, and I look forward to seeing how it develops with amendments in Committee.”
“Victims should always feel secure that the commissioner can and will do everything in their power to tackle shortcomings where the victims live. That is why I continue my call for a victims’ commissioner for Wales, to represent victims of crimes in the specific context of Wales, where many victim support services and important policy levers, such as those relating to health and social care, are devolved and held to account by the Senedd. At this point I will mention another aspect of the Bill: the Crown prosecution recruitment. We need personnel in the criminal justice system in Wales who can operate in Welsh and English, so I call on the Government to seek such personnel.”
“I truly welcome those measures, which the UK Government say will cost an extra £0.2 million for HM Prison and Probation Service each year, with updating the victim contact scheme costing £20,000 and the victim helpline costing between £100,000 and £200,000. I am concerned about whether those costings will be sufficient. As co-chair of the justice unions parliamentary group, I call on the Government to commit to delivering the additional resources necessary for the Probation Service to deal with the inevitable increase in demand, both initially and as victims become more aware that they have these rights. There is a risk of overextending a service that is already in a workload and staffing crisis, at the expense of victims. Extending the powers of the Victims’ Commissioner is also welcome.”
“I, too, pay tribute to the hon. Member for Knowsley (Anneliese Midgley) for speaking so movingly about Olivia and her family. I rise primarily to speak about the victim-centred measures in the Bill and would like to take this opportunity to thank the Minister for her engagement with me on this matter and with my constituent Rhianon Bragg, a formidable activist who has done so much work to improve support and services for victims. The expanded victim contact scheme should see more victims able to get adequate information about their offenders’ sentences and make representations about licence conditions or supervision requirements as they relate to them. Similarly, the victim helpline will give more victims the information they need.”
“I am sure the hon. Lady will know that when setting out last month’s Supreme Court judgment, Lord Hodge counselled against reading the judgment “as a triumph of one or more groups in our society at the expense of another”. None the less, it has caused immense distress to the trans community. Does she agree that now is the time for the Government to commit to a clear timetable for allowing transgender people to self-identify their legal gender, so that they can live with dignity and respect, which is a basic human right?”
“I am sure that the House will be interested to note that the jurisdiction of Scotland, as well as the Crown dependencies of the Isle of Man and Jersey, have variations that are different from what has been discussed. Will the hon. Member join me in commiserating with the family of Iola Dorkins, a campaigner I mentioned back in November? She died of motor neurone disease on her birthday last week. Let us remember that we are doing this for real people who are undergoing real suffering at the end of life.”
“Victims of domestic abuse, sexual abuse and stalking are now in fear, particularly those who live in rural areas, where tagging does not always work. What particular measures will the Minister put in place to support victims in rural areas who are distant from probation officers and the police?”
“Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llefarydd. This Prime Minister once spoke of compassion and dignity for migrants and of defending free movement. Now he talks of islands of strangers and taking back control. Somebody here has to call this out. It seems that the only principle he consistently defends is whichever he last heard in a focus group. So I ask him: is there any belief he holds that survives a week in Downing Street?”
“The UN says that Israel’s denial of aid is evidence of “the systematic dismantling of Palestinian life”. There is therefore a risk that we are witnesses to genocide. The Minister’s Government can reinstate airlifts of aid along the lines of those arranged last year, which would send a powerful message. Will the Minister act now and enable aid airlifts?”
“Sir Roy found that out, and nothing would do but for Fflur to bring in said harp to play for him. It has been an honour to know him, and people’s recollections of him today tell me that he had immense influence on all of us here.”
“Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. I first knew Sir Roy Stone when I became leader of my group after the 2017 general election. He did, in fact, pass views on the Chief Whips of the time, but I think they are probably best kept to myself for now, because some of them are in the Chamber. He was immensely supportive, and as the leader of a very small group, I learned so much from him. It was the first time that the group had had meetings with the Chief Whip. I speak on behalf of a small party, and Sir Roy’s respect for Parliament, and for the presence of small parties in it, was evident. He felt that we had a role to play, and he enabled us to play that role very effectively. My lasting memory of Sir Roy was from just after he left. A member of staff, Fflur Elin, could play the harp.”
“As co-chair of the justice unions parliamentary group, I know that unions have been raising the problem of safety and violence against staff in prisons for years under the previous Government, which underfunded them and let them down. Will the Minister commit to meet unions at the launch in July of the newly updated “Safe Inside” prisons charter developed by the Joint Unions in Prisons Alliance, a coalition of nine unions representing workers in prisons, and that His Majesty’s Prison and Probation Service will accept the recommendations in the charter?”
“Given that nuclear is so significant for north-west Wales as a whole, this begs the question of what the future use of Trawsfynydd will be. I would like the Minister to update us on what discussions he has had with the Welsh Government in relation to Cwmni Egino and the potential use of this public-owned nuclear licensed site for an advanced modular reactor or radioisotopes, for example. What future does it have?”
“I would be grateful if the Minister could provide an assurance on continuous decommissioning at both Trawsfynydd and Wylfa. At Trawsfynydd, decommissioning is currently providing 276 very well-paid jobs. Trawsfynydd is the United Kingdom’s “lead and learn” site and could well be the first fully decommissioned nuclear site in Europe. However, we need an assurance that decommissioning will be continuous and that there will be sufficient funding, beyond this year and into the future, to ensure effective decommissioning, which will also give the public confidence in nuclear power into the future.”
“Will the Minister provide any information on whether there will be updates on sitings for SMRs? We understand that the siting is being reconsidered, and businesses that are engaged with a design are very keen to know where the likely sites will be.”
“Reports of a new UK-EU strategic partnership to reduce trade barriers will, at last, be a welcome boost to Wales’s food and drinks producers, given that 75% of the sector’s exports go to the EU. All producers from farm to fork of our wonderful Welsh produce make a vital contribution to Wales’s economy. Will the Secretary of State join me in celebrating all Wales’s food producers and farmers, especially those at Sioe Nefyn—Nefyn Show—on Monday, and even more so those from Sir Gâr, or Carmarthenshire, here today?”
“On another note, Policy in Practice shows that nearly half of the 10 UK local authority areas worst hit by Labour’s welfare cuts are in Wales—that is 190,000 people affected in Wales, hitting our post-industrial quarrying and coalmining communities hard. How does the Secretary of State explain to Welsh colleagues why the communities where Labour used to be strongest should now suffer so much because of her Government’s cruel welfare cuts?”
“An apology to the families of David Amess and Jo Cox was the only slim chance for redemption. The use of inciting language is to be condemned when it becomes apparent, just as violence against elected representatives is always to be condemned. Politics is about being alert to the right to use words powerfully and the risks and responsibilities of doing so. Does the Minister agree, therefore, that it is right and necessary to condemn incendiary language and to ensure freedom of speech right across the political spectrum?”
“We look at English creators as being vulnerable, but Welsh creators are even more so. I urge the Minister to respond by stating what impact assessment has been carried out in relation to the creative industries in Wales, and specifically the Welsh language, given its vulnerabilities.”
“Film, drama, literature and music all sustain and produce a unique Welsh way of life, through the medium of both Welsh and English. In February this year, newspapers and news organisations across Wales devoted their leading articles to this issue, warning that what is threatening their industry could have potentially catastrophic consequences for Welsh journalism. Creative groups in Wales, such as Teledwyr Annibynnol Cymru, say that they do not support an opt-out process. Instead, they suggest that any new regime should require creators to opt in, meaning that web crawlers cannot simply scrape content unless permitted to do so. I wanted to bring the Wales-specific issues to the fore because the risk is that we always assume that the Welsh language works in the same context as that of the English language. It does not.”
“Diolch yn fawr iawn, Cadeirydd. I congratulate the hon. Member for Bury North (Mr Frith), who spoke excellently, and there have been many excellent speeches today. I will speak briefly, but I want to raise some specific points. First, I thank Valerie Dunmore, who is the chair of the Society of Women Writers and Journalists, which was established in 1894. She came to see me specifically to raise these issues, and this gives us an idea of what is at stake. Turning to the creative industries in Wales, we have heard how much the creative industries contribute in other areas, and in Wales itself, the figure was £1.5 billion. There are over 3,500 creative businesses in Wales; that number is increasing and the freelance workforce is growing. These industries all play an important part in preserving and spreading the Welsh language and culture.”
“Q4. Last week, former steelworkers in Port Talbot watched in dismay as this Government deemed their livelihoods worth less than those in Scunthorpe. Freedom of information requests reveal that the UK Government do not know how their funding for reskilling workers in Wales is being used or even how many people are being retrained, and we know that concerns have been raised by the transition board. If the Government cannot explain how they are helping Port Talbot’s laid-off workers to build a future through reskilling, why should those workers not come to the logical conclusion that Labour has abandoned them?”
“While the Supreme Court ruling brings clarity to some, it brings undeniable fear and uncertainty to others. The Minister’s statement today still leaves vulnerable trans people lost in a maze of complex equalities law. She talks about dignity and respect. Let us look at our prison system, which is just one setting for which her Government are responsible. It is dangerously dysfunctional. What safeguards will now be strengthened so that no trans person is placed in greater danger as a direct result of this ruling?”
“When the blast furnaces in Port Talbot closed down last September, this Government could have taken exactly the same legislative action as they have chosen to take today. We will endeavour to amend the Bill to include Wales, because there is still the opportunity for this Government to make a real difference to the community of Port Talbot and the 2,800 jobs that have been lost there.”
“Plaid Cymru has called consistently for nationalisation, but the Labour First Minister of Wales rejected our calls and described nationalisation as “pipe dreams”. Labour in Wales was quick to mock our proposal, which we made 21 times—over and over again—in Cardiff and here in Westminster. Now it is UK Labour policy. The Government must set out how much of the £2.5 billion steel fund will be allocated to securing Scunthorpe, and how that compares with the amount given to support laid-off workers in Wales.”
“Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lefarydd. Today’s legislation to safeguard the UK’s last bastion of primary steelmaking capacity is of course to be supported, but what my party cannot support is this Government’s approach to steel in the UK, which deems that steel in Scunthorpe is worth saving but steel in Wales is not. Today is a bitter day for the people of Port Talbot, where the blast furnaces have been extinguished because Labour let that happen. Job losses there will take an estimated £200 million from the local economy in lost wages. People in south Wales have been loyally voting for Labour for decades. Do this Labour Government feel proud that those votes have been paid back by Tory-style deindustrialisation in Port Talbot?”
“So far, Labour in Westminster and Labour in Cardiff have worked in partnership to dispatch thousands of Welsh workers to uncertainty and hopelessness. People in Wales will not forget today. It is a day of bitter disappointment for Port Talbot.”
“I will take no interventions. His Government did not intervene in Wales. Under his Government, Scunthorpe gets security; Port Talbot gets a pittance. Plaid Cymru believes that Port Talbot should and could have received equal treatment alongside Scunthorpe. That is why we have tabled an amendment to include Wales in the terms of the Bill, and to highlight that the measures we are debating today could have been used to save the blast furnaces at Tata Steel in Wales. We will not let Labour hide from the fact that it owns the decision not to intervene to save Welsh steel when it had the opportunity to do so. Workers and communities must be at the heart of any long-term solution for the steel industry.”
“Previous Labour and Conservative Governments did little when Welsh livelihoods were swept away by global market forces at places such as the Ford plant in Bridgend and the steelworks in Port Talbot. Wales’s car sector is facing 25% tariffs thanks to President Trump. That threatens an industry that employs 30,000 people. The Welsh Automotive Forum has said that the Government’s commitments are not enough; it is calling for direct support. Recycled fines are hardly direct support. Are the Government prepared to step up and provide that?”
“Diolch yn fawr, Mr Llefarydd. The House should know that, unlike in England, Welsh public services are not fully protected from the cost of increased employers national insurance contributions. That is because compensation from the Treasury does not take into account Wales’s bigger public sector, and it means Wales is losing out on £65 million. Can we have a debate about why it is fair that the NHS in England gets more money proportionately than the NHS in Wales?”
“Diolch yn fawr, Madam Dirprwy Lefarydd. Some commentators are fawning over a 10% tariff simply because our nearest neighbours have been hit worse. Let’s get real: the 25% tariff on steel and aluminium will hit Wales’s biggest export to the US—machinery and transport equipment. The EU is Wales’s greatest trading partner, with Welsh exports valued at £11.2 billion. In the face of the American President’s obsession with international economic revenge, does the Secretary of State recognise that it is economic common sense to accelerate the scrapping of trade barriers with Europe?”