Liz Saville Roberts
MP for Dwyfor Meirionnydd · Plaid Cymru · United Kingdom
“I speak as the chair of the new justice unions all-party parliamentary group, which hears from six trade unions representing workers across prisons, probation, policing and the courts.”
“Q9. Yr Heliwr in Nefyn is a community-owned pub, and it is buzzing with events fuelled by local beers and food. I have to declare an interest; I have shares in Yr Heliwr, and it makes my husband very happy indeed.”
“It is welcome that the UK is finally banning trade with illegal settlements in Palestine and it is right that we no longer condone economic tolerance for these settlements, which fly in the face of international law and the sovereignty of Palestine.”
“If this is a Union of equals, let me turn to the wildfires that we suffered in Wales and England this summer. The Rhinogydd mountains of Eryri national park are the last true upland wilderness in Wales. They burned for over two weeks in July, causing immeasurable damage to peatlands and wildlife.”
“I appreciate the tone of the Secretary of State’s answer. I note that the Prime Minister said yesterday that change begins with honesty, so let us be honest: harping on about the strength of the Union in the same breath as calling for change is a distraction.”
“Q5. Our new Plaid Cymru Government have laid the foundations for change, showing what Wales can achieve with the powers we have. The Prime Minister says that devolving powers means better public services, and I agree with him, but policing in Wales is still controlled from afar here in Westminster.”
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“I am also talking about Glyder Fach and Glyder Fawr. Such deaths are so difficult for the people involved with the search and rescue teams, but my heart goes out to the families of people who have lost loved ones. This area is very important; it is full of leisure activity and is part of our economy in north Wales. The emergency services and the volunteer rescue services both play their part in making the places that I have mentioned as safe as possible. There are 11 mountain rescue teams in Wales. Six of them are in my constituency: Llanberis, Aberglaslyn, South Snowdonia, Aberdyfi, North East Wales, the North Wales Cave Rescue Organisation, and Ogwen, which is in the Bangor Aberconwy constituency, but serves the same mountain massif.”
“In February, there were two very young men—they were aged 19 and 20 —from Norfolk who tragically died on Yr Wyddfa, the Snowdon range, after a really huge winter search and rescue operation that involved multiple rescue teams, in conditions that involved snow and ice, and severe exposure. We have to recognise the diligence and the commitment of the people who go out in such difficult circumstances. There are also falls from ridges and from scrambles, particularly in the areas that are risky in Snowdonia, or Eryri. I will put those areas on the record, because it is important that people are alert to the risks there. I am talking about places such as Crib Goch and Tryfan, where there is no marked path. I am also talking about the Watkin Path pools, where—sadly—two young women died last June.”
“I congratulate the hon. Member for Hazel Grove (Lisa Smart) on securing this debate, because it has been very interesting. There have been speakers from every nation and region of the United Kingdom. This issue is significant to us all. I beg your patience, Ms Lewell, but I will, of course refer to Eryri, which is the mountain region that I represent much of. It is one of the busiest and most hazardous mountain regions within the United Kingdom. In 2025, we had around 600,000 visitors. Sadly, however, there are fatal incidents every year, due to falls, exposure and incidents in water. Of course, it is the mountain rescue volunteers who play such a key role in interacting with the emergency services, in rescuing people and in dealing with dangerous incidents, many of which are tragic. I will refer to just two of them today.”
“The hon. Gentleman makes an argument that I have heard before—that, to maintain certain rescue services, they must not be vulnerable to policy decisions making cuts to public services. There is a “but” though, as those services must have sufficient funding to survive. The RNLI is a very well loved and established charity, but it is much more difficult for some of the smaller charities. It is important that we move forward knowing that we need to maintain these services, even though we may have different funding models.”
“Families in Wales under Labour are struggling, with inflation in bills, wages flatlining and childcare costs higher than anywhere else in the UK. Plaid Cymru’s universal childcare offer would be a game changer. With full roll-out, that universal offer will be worth more than £30,000 a child, and it has been independently assessed as affordable and deliverable. Does the Secretary of State recognise how Labour’s chronic lack of ambition is keeping families in Wales in poverty?”
“The Secretary of State’s tight-lipped quibbling is just an excuse—a shadow of an apology for what her party has failed to do, having been in power for the past 27 years. It is no surprise to anybody that voters are ready for a change. Last night’s YouGov poll shows that Plaid Cymru and Reform UK are neck and neck in Wales, with Labour trailing far behind. Will she accept that a vote for Labour on 7 May risks handing power to Reform UK, which will wreck our NHS? Will she recognise that only Plaid Cymru can stop that?”
“Does the hon. Member realise that to people outside, this argument—these fine details of process—morphs into a defence of ignorance and then into a defence of incompetency? That is actually doing the Prime Minister as much harm as all these arguments about his honesty.”
“In closing, the facts were known, the associations were known and the public record was clear. This was a public decision. It was a wrong decision of such magnitude that the only conclusion will be to end the Starmer Administration, and that will happen when the Labour party decides to do so, because it is the Labour party’s responsibility.”
“How can the Prime Minister now express sympathy for the victims of crimes committed by a man whose closest associate he chose to elevate? How can he claim to share their pain when he made the very decision that caused them such distress? Just this morning, Sir Olly Robbins told the Foreign Affairs Committee that Downing Street asked the Foreign Office to find a senior diplomatic role for the Prime Minister’s then communications chief, Matt Doyle, even though Doyle had campaigned for a friend charged with possessing indecent images of children. This is the Government who promised to turn the page on Tory sleaze and restore trust and integrity to British politics; instead, the Prime Minister pressured the civil service not once but twice to appoint friends of known sex offenders to senior diplomatic roles.”
“Her sister-in-law, Amanda Roberts, said this of Mandelson’s sacking last year: “Our governments have allowed these people to hold their status and their title without shame…It’s unfair we continuously pull these skeletons out, that survivors have to continuously point the finger for us to do the right thing.” These were women and children who were trafficked and abused by a network of men who acted with the confidence that they were untouchable—too powerful to be challenged and too protected ever to be brought down. It truly raises the uncomfortable question of whether Peter Mandelson’s familiarity with that world was treated as a skillset rather than a red flag. Was he chosen precisely because he was comfortable rubbing shoulders with the sort of men who shared private jets with Epstein, rather than in spite of it?”
“What is more, Government Members were given lines to take yesterday, prompting them to quote a victim of Epstein in defence of the Prime Minister. The suffering of Epstein’s victims was of no consequence to the Government when Mandelson was appointed; they weighed it in the scales and found which side they wanted to come down on. In truth, it is thanks to the bravery of victims such as Virginia Giuffre that Epstein’s crimes are even in the public domain.”
“Yesterday the Prime Minister apologised to the victims of Jeffrey Epstein, but where was that sense of responsibility when he made the decision to appoint Peter Mandelson? Where was that sense of responsibility when he actively chose to ignore information that was already in the public domain? This morning, the Energy Secretary said, “Prime Ministers make errors. Prime Ministers are fallible. Prime Ministers are human”, but I am struggling to understand how the gravity of the misjudgment in this political appointment can be explained away by simple human error. This was not a split-second judgment or a decision made of urgent necessity under pressure in the heat of the moment; instead, it was a deliberate, considered political appointment made in full knowledge of the political priorities involved. Morgan McSweeney even swore it through.”
“The Prime Minister is hiding behind a thicket of legalese and procedure, but he has a track record of appointing Labour’s most favoured sons and daughters to plum Government jobs and into the House of Lords. In Wales, we know all about Labour’s crony culture—who could forget UK Labour’s favourite First Minister, Vaughan Gething, who was propped up by No. 10 in spite of dodgy donations and is now tipped for a peerage? On the timing, how will the Prime Minister explain to his party his role in bringing down Labour’s century of dominance in Wales in the forthcoming elections?”
“The Minister’s comments about the potential of energy production in north Wales are to be welcomed because we have been waiting for a very long time. He will also know that energy markets have a direct impact on agriculture, and farmers are facing agflation at 7.6%. That hits Welsh farmers hard because many have to hold back on buying fertiliser until livestock can be turned out, and that is happening now—those prices are hitting them now. They face fertiliser price increases of up to 80% as a direct result of Trump’s warmongering. NFU Cymru leaders met the Secretary of State’s Wales Office colleagues in London this week. Could he tell me whether there was a solid result that farmers can see a benefit from following that meeting?”
“I am very interested in hearing the hon. Member’s evident experience. I would like to put on record that I am the chair of the justice unions parliamentary group. It is extremely important that police officers have representation. In only the last three years, we have heard about tragic cases of suicides and hundreds of attempted suicides. It is also evident that the governance of the Police Federation has to be adapted and improved immensely.”
“National security depends on more than conventional defence spend, because our democracies can be brought down by methods other than weapons. There are concerns that the public are not yet sufficiently aware of the risk and reality of foreign information manipulation and interference. How does tackling this aspect of hybrid warfare feature in a cross-departmental way within the Government?”
“Protection at work for prison officers means more than just the right personal protective equipment; it also means the legal protections that almost every other worker enjoys, and specifically the right to take industrial action as a last resort. The last Government treated prison officers as expendable. I urge this Government not to make the same mistake.”
“The roll-out of stab-proof vests in the high security estate is of course to be welcomed, but it needs to be the norm. The POA is calling for that vital equipment to be mandated across the entire closed male estate. I urge the Minister to take seriously other demands, such as replacing the cumbersome and impractical utility belts, which are weighed down with equipment, with lightweight slash-proof vests, which redistribute weight and can prevent injuries, especially for female officers. According to the POA, the last Government objected to utility vests because they look too militaristic and intimidating, but surely that is yet another example of the low priority given to prison officer health and safety. In the circumstances, those were not credible objections.”
“The European Committee of Social Rights recently ruled that the UK is in breach of its obligations under the European social charter because of that very ban. It said that “the blanket ban on prisoner officers striking cannot be deemed proportionate and thus goes beyond the limits permitted by Article G of the Charter.” The committee concluded that “the situation is not in conformity with Article 6§4 of the Charter on the ground that that there is an absolute prohibition on the right to strike for the prison officers.” That is an important ruling, and I urge the Minister to consider its implications seriously, especially in the light of the POA’s current case before the European Court of Human Rights. Let me go from one aspect of safety to another: back to body armour.”
“I wish I could say that the direction under the Labour Government was significantly different, but evidence suggests that we must question that. When officers at HMP Liverpool took issue last year with the governor’s changes to the prison regime—changes that he himself admitted to the Justice Committee carried an expectation of leading to a potential increase in violence—he cut off direct contact with the local POA committee and restricted facility time, threatening members with disciplinary action and dismissal simply for exercising their health and safety rights. It is clear to me from talking to the POA many times that the blanket ban on its members from taking any form of industrial action is one of the key factors in prison officers’ discontent. They sense that they are impotent and unable to change their circumstances.”
“The POA was dragged back to the High Court again the following year, also for standing up for the health and safety of its members. Because of the permanent injunction that the Government have against the union from taking any form of industrial action, the POA was fined a six-figure sum for what the court called the illegal inducement of members to take action. Even more outrageous were the threats made in court by Government lawyers to imprison the POA’s leadership for simply protecting their members, meaning that prison officers were threatened with jail for protecting other prison officers. That is the context in which we are talking about the steady increase in violence and the feeling in the profession that there is a lack of response.”
“One of those attacks saw a prison officer strangled to the point of unconsciousness, but when officers at the prison told the governor that the prison was unsafe and demanded immediate changes, this was put into effect with the operation of a controlled lockdown to restrict the regime, and the MOJ responded by dragging them into court. Something is very wrong when the response to such extreme workplace violence is to punish those very workers at the sharp end of the assaults. At the High Court, what shocked me most about the POA’s evidence is that the Government barrister, according to media reports at the time, made the argument that although the violence at Lindholme was “deeply regrettable”, it was—once again— “business as usual in a prison”.”
“In any other workplace, this would be all over the news as a national emergency, but because this is about prison staff, who are effectively hidden in their work behind high walls, the POA tells me—and I have seen this—that it is treated as just business as usual by the Ministry of Justice, as if this is what people should expect in this workplace. The POA gave evidence to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee in the other place last year, in which it described being taken to the High Court by the previous Government after two horrific attacks on staff at HMP Lindholme in South Yorkshire.”
“It is important to highlight how significantly violence in prisons has increased over the last 15 years. We have heard already how the rate of prisoner-on-prisoner violence has risen from around 130 assaults per 1,000 prisoners in 2013 to 240 last year, nearly doubling. The rate of prisoner-on-staff violence has also soared from roughly 40 assaults per 1,000 prisoners to just under 120, tripling in just over a decade. I also have a snapshot from Wales. In 2024, assaults on prison staff rose 22% on the previous year, with a total of 536 attacks. At HMP Berwyn, the nearest prison to my constituency in north-west Wales, there was an increase in that year of 42%. Unsurprisingly, recruitment at that prison in Wrexham has long been challenging.”
“We must now find a way to change that, but that has been their experience, and some aspects of their experience have yet to be addressed in any meaningful way. Six years ago, I helped to launch the first Safe Inside Prisons Charter, developed by the Joint Unions in Prisons Alliance, a coalition of 10 national trade unions representing the majority of prison staff, including the POA. The third updated version of that charter was published last year, but the Prison Service has yet to adopt its common-sense recommendations. I press the Minister to tell us why it has not done so. A vast majority of unions that are present in prisons have adopted it and saying, “Every union needs to adopt it,” as a reason not to take it on board is not a reasonable rationale.”
“It is an honour to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Betts. I congratulate the right hon. Member for New Forest East (Sir Julian Lewis) on securing today’s debate. For more than a decade, I have had the honour of being the co-chair of the Justice Unions Parliamentary Group, during which time I have heard first-hand accounts, some of them grim, visited many prisons and heard from prison officers, the Prison Officers Association and others about the violence and how deeply it affects people. The Prison Officers Association has been warning for years that its members’ health and safety is in practice a low priority for the Prison Service—that is the reality of what they experience. It has been difficult for the union, for a long period, to improve the safety of prison officers.”
“The hon. Member for Easington (Grahame Morris) raised how key performance indicators for safety would be one particular driver that the Government could bring in immediately, which would enhance all the factors that the Minister is mentioning. Does he agree that another critical KPI could be staff retention? That is the canary in the mine, because where staff are happy, they stay—and they stay with all their expertise.”
“The key point is what is measured publicly. I appreciate that Ministers will have the information, and I am delighted that they do, but the sense of what is measured and the standards by which our prisons are held to account—that the public are aware of—are key drivers in creating change within a culture that we know has needed to change for 12 years or more.”
“The family of Mathew Hardy have set up a petition calling for the immediate forfeiture of driving licences upon a positive drink or drug test. They do this in circumstances where they lost their son just before Christmas. His partner is expecting a baby who will be born bereaved of a father. Does the Minister agree that the individual’s right to drive does not come before another individual’s right to life?”
“Donald Trump may have paused his escalation of aggressive attacks, but we know that the conflict is not over. The Secretary of State said that US access to British bases is restrained by the principle that such use is defensive only. The public have the right to know what safeguards exist. What follow-up checks are made to verify that this use is indeed defensive only?”
“My thoughts are with the Jewish community in north London. There is something particularly abhorrent about the destruction of ambulances, and actions motivated by extreme hatred must be condemned. No one anywhere should be made to feel at risk because of their race or religion. How are risks to the wider Jewish community, particularly those communities that are perhaps scattered or individual families or even individuals, being assessed at present—this is of course relevant to Wales—because so many people feel at risk?”
“It is reported that the UK’s national security adviser was in the room at Iran-US nuclear talks last month, just before the war began, and it appears that diplomatic options were still viable and there was no solid evidence of an imminent missile threat to Europe, or of Iran obtaining a nuclear weapon. Does the Foreign Secretary therefore believe that a negotiated path between Iran and the US was still possible at that time? If so, surely that means that the initial US-Israeli strikes were premature and therefore illegal.”
“On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Has the Speaker received any notice of a statement from the Government following the question from my hon. Friend the Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry (Stephen Gethins) to the Prime Minister this morning regarding the contents of a memo from the Prime Minister to Cabinet members advising them to disregard opposition from devolved Governments to direct interventions by Westminster Ministers. Can you advise me how the long-standing Sewel convention, which enshrines the protocol that Westminster Governments do not intervene in devolved matters in Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland, has been respected in this matter, and can you direct me to which bin this has been filed by the Government?”
“We need a pilot scheme with a sunset clause, rather than changes that will break the system everywhere to address an urban English problem. It is undeniable that there is a crisis in the court system, and that we need changes to address it, but we need different solutions to address different problems in different areas. We must not break something in which there is so much trust at a time when we should be doing everything in our power to protect trust in politics—and, I fear, trust in the law, too.”
“Some of those things are pretty boring, but we will not make a difference until we address them. We fear that the Bill could make things worse in Wales. Although there were 2,663 outstanding cases at the Crown court in Wales as of December 2024, there were nearly 12,000 outstanding cases in magistrates courts; they have serious capacity challenges that look set to increase as a direct result of the Bill. We also have serious challenges in Wales in recruiting magistrates, especially Welsh-speaking magistrates. The hon. Member for Hornsey and Friern Barnet (Catherine West) mentioned a pilot scheme. It seems to me that, rather than making a huge, untested change of this gravity, a pilot scheme is exactly what we should be looking at, if we are to make changes to jury trials, because then we would actually know the effect.”
“Indeed, the Lady Chief Justice said that Wales is disposing of—wait for it— “more Crown Court cases than it receives”. That suggests that our Crown court backlog is actually going down. The legal reform charity JUSTICE points to Welsh Crown court measures that were taken to increase efficiency when those courts faced covid-era backlogs as examples of practical steps that have helped to keep clearance rates high. Rather than us restricting a fundamental public right in order to tackle a problem, what would be useful in Wales is action to tackle the operational issues that our courts face, which we all know about. We need better data tracking, modern systems, improved pay, measures to address the Tory court closures, and proper building maintenance.”
“They go beyond what Sir Brian Leveson recommended that the Government do to address court backlogs, and they increase the risk of bias and miscarriages of justice, increase the risk to the safety of judges, and increase pressure on legal aid services. Although nobody denies that action is necessary, we have to bear in mind that the Institute for Government estimates that the Bill will save only between 7% and 10% of total court time, and that judge-only trials will save only 1.5% to 2.5%. There is little concrete evidence that these are the right sorts of changes to make, and we fear that they will not achieve what we want. I turn to Wales, because the problems are not the same everywhere across the England and Wales jurisdiction. Welsh Crown courts make up only a small proportion of the overall court backlog.”
“It is only through the state that the citizen can get justice, so there is an undeniable need for reform. The second part of the Bill makes immensely important interventions that will make a real difference to victims. They include the repeal of the presumption of parental involvement, and measures relating to the admissibility of evidence and special measures in court, and they are to be welcomed. The question that we are debating, however, is the degree to which clauses 1 to 7 are the major reforms needed to speed up the process. Removing the right to jury trial for offences that are triable either way and imposing a single-judge model are serious changes to individual rights, as we have heard.”
“We all know that years of underfunding and under-investment have caused a crisis across our legal and justice systems. I commend some of the people who spoke earlier about their experiences, particularly the hon. Members for Bolsover (Natalie Fleet) and for Warrington North (Charlotte Nichols). It takes immense courage to stand up in the Chamber and put those experiences on record. They came at this from a different point of view. I have immense respect for them. Of course, they are doing what we should be doing here. Victims and survivors—their voices, stories and needs—should be at the heart of the justice system, and they are, as we know, facing unacceptable delays to justice. The Government, of course, must speed up the process. Only the state can do that.”
“Yesterday we marked International Women’s Day with the statistic that women hold fewer than two thirds of the rights enjoyed by men globally. Afghan women are already barred from secondary and higher education, and they now face further violence and discrimination under the Taliban’s new criminal regulations. What is the Secretary of State doing? She is stopping them from applying to study at our universities. Does the Minister not agree that the aim of ending violence against women and girls extends beyond borders, and that his Government have a moral duty to help women fulfil their potential in safety?”
“Protecting livelihoods and limiting the cost of living hit both depend on President Trump ending his war of choice. I doubt he cares a jot about the damage he is doing to our economy, but he does care about his poll numbers. Does the Secretary of State agree, therefore, that it is a matter of national security that every method is used to make it clear to the President that his reputation prior to the midterms is best served by bringing this crisis to a speedy conclusion?”
“I appreciate what the Minister has just said about heating oil, because 55% of households in Dwyfor Meirionnydd are off the gas grid. Many rely on alternative heating fuels, and they are not protected by the energy price cap. We also pay the highest standing charges of any region in the United Kingdom and are exposed to global market shocks, in the sense that deliveries can be late and prices are passed straight on. In the energy crisis triggered by Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, off-grid households had to wait months longer for any support, but they did get a one-off alternative fuel payment of £200. Will the Secretary of State consider something similar to the alternative fuel payment at this time?”
“I was fortunate to visit Nuuk in Greenland with the APPG for Greenland—of course, we discussed NATO and Trump. It is important for us to remember that the 1951 agreement between the USA and the Kingdom of Denmark gave the US rights of access to military defence. When it comes to what the United Kingdom could be doing for Greenland to develop what will none the less be geo-significant in the future, surely it is time that we should call for a consulate for the United Kingdom in Greenland.”
“Of course, we are at risk in our democracy of looking at things in the very short term. With climate change, 30 years from now the access to key rare earth minerals, and possibly shipping lanes, in the far north may have changed considerably.”
“The spring forecast, which revised economic growth downwards, was produced before the outbreak of war in Iran. Now, the price of energy has spiked, with gas up almost 100%. If the war continues for even a few weeks, those costs will directly hit the pockets of people and businesses in Wales. Is the Secretary of State not astounded that Reform Members are cheerleaders for prolonging Trump’s aggression in the Gulf, and does she agree that Wales cannot afford the cost of Reform?”
“I appreciate that the Minister is talking about defence spend, but in my earlier intervention I raised a point about having a consulate. Many of our European neighbours are ensuring that they have a presence in the area, alongside China and the United States. Surely that would be an effective way of spending Government money at a time when we are looking to spend effectively for the future of the UK’s best interests.”
“I expected something a little more thoughtful from the Secretary of State, especially when we consider the Welsh economy. The Industrial Communities Alliance warns that the Government’s 70:30 capital-to-revenue split for the local growth fund will have dire consequences. It will pull the rug out from under business support, training and employability services, and it will cost hundreds, if not thousands, of jobs across Wales, including at the fantastic Porthi Dre in Caernarfon, which tackles hunger, food waste and loneliness, but faces the loss of key staff members because of the Labour Government. Will the Secretary of State therefore commit to allowing greater spending flexibility, to safeguard the very jobs that we need to boost employment?”
“It is a source of concern that two of the three men were arrested in Wales, and that they have close associations with the Labour party. Given that the Senedd goes to the polls in just over two months—in the shadow, of course, of the Nathan Gill scandal—what support will be given to the Electoral Commission to ensure that there are sufficient resources to safeguard those elections against the growing threat of foreign interference?”
“No one here is an apologist for the cruel Iranian regime, but the escalation initiated by the US Administration and the Israeli Government is illegal, and I am certain that the Prime Minister knows this. Hundreds of thousands of UK citizens are directly affected and at risk, and they include people from Dwyfor Meirionnydd. While there must be questions anon about a vote in this House as we fear that these defensive actions will slide into offensive ones, but we do not know how we will track that process. None the less, the question for today that people want us to ask is this: when will people be coming home, especially from Doha and Dubai?”
“The Minister mentions the need to recognise innovations. At the same time, we have to recognise that organisations such as banks, and also the Post Office, are very much inclined to be self-interested. In my own constituency a year ago, we lost 21 out of 25 locations for vans. The Government surely need to intervene to make sure that remote and left-behind communities are not left even further behind because these large financial organisations are looking after their own interests.”