Liz Saville Roberts
MP for Dwyfor Meirionnydd · Plaid Cymru · United Kingdom
“I speak as the chair of the new justice unions all-party parliamentary group, which hears from six trade unions representing workers across prisons, probation, policing and the courts.”
“Q9. Yr Heliwr in Nefyn is a community-owned pub, and it is buzzing with events fuelled by local beers and food. I have to declare an interest; I have shares in Yr Heliwr, and it makes my husband very happy indeed.”
“It is welcome that the UK is finally banning trade with illegal settlements in Palestine and it is right that we no longer condone economic tolerance for these settlements, which fly in the face of international law and the sovereignty of Palestine.”
“If this is a Union of equals, let me turn to the wildfires that we suffered in Wales and England this summer. The Rhinogydd mountains of Eryri national park are the last true upland wilderness in Wales. They burned for over two weeks in July, causing immeasurable damage to peatlands and wildlife.”
“I appreciate the tone of the Secretary of State’s answer. I note that the Prime Minister said yesterday that change begins with honesty, so let us be honest: harping on about the strength of the Union in the same breath as calling for change is a distraction.”
“Q5. Our new Plaid Cymru Government have laid the foundations for change, showing what Wales can achieve with the powers we have. The Prime Minister says that devolving powers means better public services, and I agree with him, but policing in Wales is still controlled from afar here in Westminster.”
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“I find the hon. Lady’s point about the mechanism by which we are making this legislation to be very pertinent. I have been here for almost 10 years. As somebody from a small party, I suspect we are all experiencing how Bill Committees work from the outside, if you like. We need a note of humility. On the one hand, we are all here trying to make this Bill a piece of legislation that is as watertight as possible. That very much then comes over to the Government; I know we are here on a private Member’s Bill because of the nature of the ethical question with this Bill, and I am very comfortable with that, but none the less there is an immense responsibility in the next stages with the questions we raise. Perhaps it might be an idea not to push this question to a vote—although I leave that entirely to the hon.”
“Surely, if we are policing the thoughts of the individual seeking to avail themselves of the service, we are working actively against that individual’s autonomy?”
“We are discussing the balance of autonomy against considerations such as capacity and coercion. The Mental Capacity Act 2005 has been in existence for 20 years, so it has the advantage of being familiar. Would the hon. Lady agree that if we were to bring in clinical views from different professions, such as from doctors, social workers and psychiatrists, we would have different definitions in place, which would address some of the concerns about different applications?”
“I was glad to hear what the Minister said about the Government accepting the Mental Capacity Act as a basis. We should remember that in 2005, that Act widened the availability of autonomy for individuals. We are discussing that here: how to enable autonomy for individuals. I also really welcome what the hon. Member for Bradford West said about impact assessments. Can the Minister commit now to an impact assessment specifically for Wales? The context of health and social care there is very different from that in England.”
“The Minister talks of increasing the draft settlement, but extra funding for Welsh police forces only plugs the gaps left by the Labour Welsh Government reducing police community support officer funding in recent years. Plaid Cymru PCC Dafydd Llywelyn tells us that 56% of Dyfed-Powys police funding now has to come from local residents. Surely the time has come to review police funding in Wales and have devolution of policing on the table.”
“In a way, this conversation about assisted dying is actually different because it is very up front, it has to be very categorical and it has to be documented. In that sense, it is extremely patient-centric, and there would be no using euphemisms, which happens in end-of-life care, when what doctors think they have told their patients they do not hear. They have heard something else, because euphemisms change according to—well, you do not even have to go so far as to talk about different communities or cultural groups; they change from one person to another. I think this would require quite specific language. It would bring things into a much less ambiguous kind of territory.”
“We still have a long way to go in communicating to people that they are in a terminal phase, so that they can find whatever residual value is in that period of time for themselves and their family. So, no, definitely not, but that is what we are striving for. I am sure that that is what all healthcare professionals are striving for. In terms of assisted dying, it would be so explicit. It is categorically different from other kinds of conversations that are much more open-ended, like goals of care conversations at end of life. This is really quite specific, to the extent that you can actually give doctors a form of words to use, because their request for this procedure needs to be so categorical and there needs to be no ambiguity around that.”
“Q There was one thing I wanted to ask about, but it led me to another question, which is to Dr Naomi Richards. It seems that much of what we are discussing assumes that being patient-centric is intrinsic and runs day to day through medical culture. Is that actually the case in your experience? If not, is there something within the culture that needs to change to become more patient-centric in order to enable autonomy? Dr Richards : I think you probably know the answer is that it is not patient-centric. In Marie Curie’s “Better End of Life Report 2024”, which was a representational survey with bereaved relatives, a third of people did not think that their relative even knew that they were dying.”
“However, apart from that, the impact of the Bill on devolved matters, if it became law, would be substantial—on the health service in Wales, on social services in Wales and on Welsh society generally. It is important that you take account of that. Indeed, certain aspects of the Bill seem to me to require a legislative consent motion to respect the Sewel convention.”
“Q Thank you very much to Mr Kruger, and to you, Chair. Professor Lewis, I am glad to say that the Committee appreciates that scrutiny is necessary for Wales-related aspects of this private Member’s Bill. What are the risks of insufficient scrutiny? Professor Lewis: Because this is a private Member’s Bill, it will not have gone through the process, which a Government Bill would have done, of having discussion between Governments as to how this might be sorted out. That impacts on Wales. So it is really important to have a session that focuses, albeit briefly, on Wales. I am grateful to the Committee. This is an England and Wales Bill because certain criminal offences are matters on which the Senedd in Cardiff cannot legislate, and that includes offences that relate to suicide.”
“It seems to me unarguable that that is a matter both on which the Welsh Government ought to be consulted and which would require legislative consent from the Senedd. The second is a cluster of clauses that impose specific functions on Welsh Ministers and on the chief medical officer for Wales. They are clauses 31, 33 and 34. Once more, from a formal perspective, they seem to require a legislative consent motion, so it seems to me that some thought needs to be given as to how that might happen in the context of a private Member’s Bill.”
“Q Could you expand somewhat on which aspects those are? Professor Lewis: As I am sure you are aware, the Parliament here in London can legislate about anything at all—absolutely anything. However, where the power to legislate is given to the devolved legislatures, the Sewel convention states—in the Government of Wales Act, in section 176, I think—that the Parliament in London will “not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters”. That is what is said. Therefore, there are certain aspects of this Bill—I will give you brief detail on that—that, in my opinion, relate to devolved matters. The first is clause 32. This is a very broad clause that would give the Secretary of State very broad powers for the implementation of the Bill within the NHS, including within the NHS in Wales.”
“I am not saying that it will take 18 months to train someone, but we are talking about training groups of doctors and nurses, and ensuring that the pathways are correct and that the legal system can deal with the requests. That will clearly take time, and we will need a lot of systems thinking about how it all fits together. You cannot specify, and I do not know how good this country is at this, but that is what should happen. It can sometimes happen very effectively and quickly.”
“Q I have a question for Professor Esmail. We heard from the Australian witnesses this morning that there was a period of implementation after legislation of 18 months. Do you think we should have a period of implementation, and what should that comprise? Professor Esmail: I think we will need to have one, because we will need to train people up and put in place all these things. You do not want to pass a Bill that a lot of people cannot access. It will require thought about how we plan this. As with any service, it is much better to think about it and ensure that we cover all options. As I said, the worst thing would be to pass a Bill and not have the right things in place. For example, the training will take a while.”
“Q I have a question for Mr Amin. England and Wales is a single jurisdiction, but health is devolved and we have been discussing an amendment to clause 12 in relation to the court of a multidisciplinary arrangement, as opposed to the High Court. What are the implications for the Committee to understand in how this plays out, with health being devolved but the jurisdiction being single? Yogi Amin: If the legal panel is not a High Court judge, but it is a multidisciplinary panel, then it just draws upon the people in the local areas. The Court of Protection operates in England and Wales and the judges apply the law the same way. That is what the panel would do in this case. Are you more concerned about the make-up of the panel or how they apply it?”
“Q What I am trying to tease out is what is the responsibility of the Senedd and what is the responsibility of the UK Government. This is going to be challenging, given that health is devolved and has been for 25 years. Yogi Amin: Are you talking about responsibility for resourcing it?”
“Q Who has to decide who is appointed to what—which body? Yogi Amin: Oh, I see. I suppose if there is a multi-disciplinary panel, the judiciary would appoint the individuals. It would be a judicial body, essentially. I do not know if you are talking about a tribunal that is multidisciplinary, although I know people shy away from tribunals.”
“We have heard this week that it is growth for Heathrow but decline for Welsh universities. Cardiff University in the Secretary of State’s home city is axing 400 full-time jobs due to a funding crisis, with nursing, music and modern language degrees on the chopping block. This is an education disaster playing out in real time. Will the Government scrap their national insurance hikes to ease the strain on universities?”
“On Conservative policies, the Secretary of State will know that universities are also being hammered by Brexit. The number of EU students starting full-time undergraduate courses in the UK fell by 68% between 2020 and 2024 to the lowest level in 30 years. Surely she agrees that our rejoining the single market would help universities to attract more students, as well as boosting economic growth.”
“My view is that, in a sense, the principles of the Bill are no different between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, although the legislation would apply only to England and Wales were it to be passed. The operational questions we have been talking about will be either subtly or importantly different between the different jurisdictions for a variety of different reasons. I do not think that is a problem, provided it is in secondary legislation and it allows the different jurisdictions to do things in the way that best suits their own set-up. Again, as we saw during covid, different nations will choose to reach the same end state using slightly different practical routes.”
“Q I have a question for Chris Whitty. You said you are here representing the chief medical officer for Wales as well. Health has been devolved for over 25 years, of course. What conversations have you had with the chief medical officer for Wales about the differences in how the NHS operates between Wales and England? What are the implications the Bill Committee should know about? Professor Whitty: First, I have had quite a lot of conversations—not just with the chief medical officer for Wales, but all the other chief medical officers and indeed a much wider range of the medical profession; I wanted to feel that I was giving a central view of the medical profession in terms of the practicalities.”
“Q May I develop that a tiny bit? In that case, you would see the timeline possibly being different for England or Wales in order to respect and take account of those operational differences? Professor Whitty: Yes. I think in principle it would be better to be as close as possible, but if there were important practical differences why it was not going to start on the same date, the more important thing would be to get it right rather than to get simultaneous timings.”
“Q Dr Green, you mentioned the different jurisdictions within the United Kingdom and the Crown dependencies. What issues have your members raised in relation to this legislation? Dr Green: In terms of the cross-border issues?”
“Yes. Dr Green: I think the concerns are that patients, particularly those from the Crown dependencies, might be looking for some things—for example, report on life expectancy—from doctors on the mainland. I think it is clear that if a doctor travelled to the Isle of Man or Jersey to do the work there, the GMC would be happy for them to do so, but we would want a clear understanding that they would not be at risk of any other legislative problems—from the DPP, for example.”
“And of course legislation is progressing in Scotland, which has different definitions from the legislation that we are discussing here. Dr Green: Correct.”
“If a doctor wishes to remain licensed to practice on the GMC register, there is a commitment to follow our professional standards.”
“Q With the GMC, do you have any commentary on the fact that health is devolved in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, and that we have a different set of jurisdictions in some instances? Mark Swindells: There are aspects in which the law will differ, including on capacity. As a UK-wide regulator, we have managed to attend to that in our guidance, so that doctors are as clear on their responsibilities as possible when they lie either side of a devolved border. There is a nuanced point with the Crown dependencies. In law, we are a UK-wide regulator, and we know that the Crown dependencies and Gibraltar will choose to use doctors who are on the GMC register. Officially, we do not legally cover those areas, but it does give us some regulatory purchase there.”
“When I train, I always try to tell people that 85% of capacity assessments are not all that difficult —they are just made difficult because you do not have time or you are not listening—but 15% are more difficult. I think a lot of these will be in the 15% zone, and in that zone, the more people you can have thinking about it, so long as they have an agreed framework within which to think, the more reliable, transparent and accountable the outcome is going to be.”
“For instance, if you have social workers involved—if you have, say, palliative care social workers involved, assuming it is a palliative care situation—they are going to be far better informed about what options might be out there than a doctor, potentially, depending on the doctor. Social workers more generally might well have more expertise in picking up signs of coercion or influence than a doctor, but I do not necessarily want to get into, “Some disciplines are good at X” and “Some disciplines are good at Y”—I have come across brilliant examples and bad examples in both zones. It is partly about multidisciplinariness and also about the fact that you have more than one person trying to talk it through.”
“Q I have a question for Alex Ruck Keene. I noticed the concerns in your evidence about presumption of capacity, and I know that you have written in the past about concerns over different disciplines having different definitions of capacity. Later on in your evidence, you also mention multidisciplinary consideration of circumstances in assessing eligibility. How might that multidisciplinary eligibility assessment alleviate some of your concerns in relation to capacity decisions? Alex Ruck Keene: We have capacity, but we also have to make sure that it is settled, informed and voluntary, and that we do not have things like pressure or influence going on. It is important to make it clear that we are not just saying that this is about all the weight going on capacity.”
“I rise as the co-chair of the justice unions parliamentary group. The emergency extra money to tackle the squalid state of our prisons is welcome, but given the £2 billion maintenance backlog, the reality is that the extra money will not touch the sides. This shows exactly why the privatisation of prison maintenance is a failed model. Private contractors may win contracts on low bids, but billions come in as extra cost later. Does the Minister seriously think that current prison maintenance providers offer good service and value for money to the taxpayer?”
“I welcome today’s statement, but it is not just about solid wall insulation. It is not right that anybody has to take any ECO4 supplier to the small claims court to get recompense for fixing shoddy work. TrustMark as a process is intrinsically ill-designed to protect vulnerable people, because it presumes that acceptance of a supplier on to the scheme is a sufficient safeguard. Will the Minister consider—I bear in mind what she has already said—empowering local authorities to sign off work before a penny is paid?”
“The hon. Member is making an immensely powerful argument; that is a tragic tale. Does she agree that, as well as domestic abuse being taken into account, perpetrators of child sexual abuse should be taken into account in relation to parental involvement? I support the campaign of my constituent, Bethan Parkinson. Amending Jade’s law to that effect, to include domestic abuse and child sexual abuse, would be a useful step forward.”
“It will then be the duty of us all on Report and on Third Reading to ensure that the money and resources are sufficient for the legislation to be workable. With that in mind, I support this motion.”
“We have been given the role of producing workable legislation as best we can, on the advice of witnesses—there is a part of me that would like the Committee to receive more witnesses, but I am very aware that we have to move ahead with what we have been charged with doing: namely, producing that workable legislation—but we will not arrive today, next week or after we have heard from our witnesses at a complete, perfect, already-made understanding of what we need to do to make correct and workable legislation. For those things to be in place today, the House would need estimates and information that the Bill Committee has been charged with providing, which it will not be able to provide until we have heard the advice from the witnesses we are calling forward to give us a sense of what the resource needs and associated costs will be.”
“Can we just state what is really quite obvious? This House has voted for further debate in order to make workable and legally watertight legislation, and with that debate will come a full understanding of the resources needed for both England and Wales. Of course, in Wales, health is devolved and justice is reserved, and we need to understand the implications for that. What has been a bit of an eye-opener for me, as a member of the Bill Committee—it is, of course, a larger Bill Committee for a private Member’s Bill than ever before—is the sense of the way in which this place operates.”
“Diolch yn fawr iawn. I put it on record that I am very grateful that we will be able to find time for a legal adviser. It will not be a representative of the Senedd, because it has become apparent that the Senedd itself will not provide a Clerk to advise us. That seems to be a weak point in the process of making legislation: I think that as legislators we should be able to receive advice on the issue that is non-political and is perceived as non-political, so we probably need to address that in future. It will not be a representative of the Senedd, but I will seek within the time to get a legal advisor who is recognised as an expert in this field.”
“Our thoughts today are with the families of those three poor little girls and with everybody who was hurt in that terrible event last summer. It is inexcusable that state agencies missed vital opportunities to intervene in this devastating case, including at three crucial points following Prevent referrals. These failings shine a grim light on the significant cracks in our public services, following years of spending cuts and underinvestment. Will the Minister join me in calling for the public inquiry to consider the role of austerity since 2010 as a contributing factor to these terrible failings?”
“We have existing tidal stream projects there, such as the Morlais project, and we see a potential model that addresses the problem of grid connection, which might be replicated elsewhere. Morlais came about with major investment from both the European Union and the Welsh Government, with a grid substation already developed and the environmental consents already in place—that is the important point. That provides an offering to tidal stream developers in which there is a reduced cost and risk that mean that they are sure of getting their technology into the water.”
“This includes, just with regard to my own constituency, the sea off the Llŷn peninsula, where Swnt Enlli—Bardsey sound—has some of the strongest tidal races in the Irish sea. Proudly, Nova Innovation had a project there, but sadly, because of the lack of grid capacity, it eventually pulled out. It is exactly these problems with grid capacity that often hinder the bringing of projects to fruition in bringing their energy onshore from the sea. Now, of course, I turn to Ynys Môn. I am speaking in place of my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Llinos Medi), who is glad to be reopening one of the berths at Holyhead. As of today, ferries are again sailing from Holyhead, which is very good news for not just Holyhead and north Wales, but the connections with Ireland.”
“We should plan ahead and look at the futures of those communities, particularly somewhere like Milford Haven, which is so dependent on fossil fuel at present. Wales is clearly poised to play a leading role in marine renewables. However, the sector is still in the early stages of development and needs Government support so that it can truly flourish. The Welsh Government have recently announced strategic resource areas for tidal stream, and I welcome that. It is a form of marine planning to designate the future availability of these areas for potential tidal stream energy projects. Of course, in Wales, as elsewhere, it is important to work with other key users of the sea, such as fishermen. There are tourism considerations as well.”
“For the future, it is estimated that Wales has the potential to generate up to 6 GW-worth of wave and tidal stream energy. I have mentioned jobs. Development and installation of 1 GW alone could support 440 full-time jobs during generation—and those in communities that currently suffer deprivation. That is a theme for many Members of Parliament from what might be called the Celtic fringe, but it really matters to us. We have such potential to generate more energy for the United Kingdom in its entirety and to generate energy security, but at the same time this can be a real levelling-up prospect for communities that have suffered in low-wage economies. Particularly in relation to Wales, I could mention Holyhead; I could mention my own community of Dwyfor Meirionnydd; and I could mention Milford Haven.”
“Diolch yn fawr iawn, Ms Jardine. I welcome you to your first chairmanship role here. I congratulate the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) on securing this debate. With a wind-lashed coastline stretching for a grand total of 1,680 miles, Wales has an abundance of marine energy potential. This growing sector already contributes significant sums to the Welsh economy. Last financial year, the marine renewable energy sector delivered £29.9 million to the Welsh economy, and it currently sustains 429 full-time jobs. We would like the number of jobs to be way more than that, please. Tidal stream is the largest contributor to the sector at present, and developers are set to deliver 28 MW-worth of development by 2028. That number is expected to grow with each annual auction round.”
“Members have touched on it—namely, the relationship or partnership between GB Energy and the Crown Estate, which will be crucial in the development of marine energy projects, given that it owns the sea bed to 12 nautical miles from the coast, including in Wales. It is therefore vital that Wales has full control over the Crown Estate, as is the case in Scotland, so that the people of Wales, not civil servants in Whitehall, shape the development of marine renewables to fit our nation’s needs and aspirations. That comparison between Wales and Scotland will not go away, and in a moment I will show hon. Members why. We could therefore ensure real benefits to Welsh communities, including the use of local supply chains and jobs in deprived, low-wage areas that will follow on from those projects. We could shape those with Welsh needs in mind.”
“However, the Great British Energy Bill does not make any reference to tidal stream or to marine renewable technologies, and, sadly, the Welsh Government’s announcement of tidal stream SRAs does not make any reference to GB Energy—if only those things were joined up and we had that co-working between Cardiff and London that is so vaunted. In his summing up, can the Minister set out what relationship GB Energy will have with the Welsh Government’s SRAs, because at present there seems to be a lack of joined-up thinking? I also echo the sector’s call for the Government to commit £250 million of Great British Energy’s budget to accelerate the development of and embed UK content in tidal stream projects and for a 1 GW target for deployment by 2035. I turn to a particularly Welsh issue, although other hon.”
“When we find ourselves discussing any large-scale energy project, we come up against some of these pragmatic, practical questions. Until we have answers to those, it is difficult for us as local MPs to do more for our constituencies than promote. I have found myself in a similar situation with Trawsfynydd and small nuclear reactors; I have been in this place talking about that for 10 years and have not got past the pragmatic first points to actually see further developments. The UK Government could use Great British Energy to invest in and develop pre-leased and consented grid connector sites for marine energy projects in Wales and elsewhere.”
“Leaving the European emissions trading scheme has meant that the UK no longer receives sums from the related EU innovation fund. Rejoining that scheme would help unlock further sources of funding for marine developments. I welcome the discussion of the marine energy task force. Of course, skills are devolved to Wales. We need to make sure that the advantages work between the Welsh Government and what is being proposed here, and that there is discussion on that. Given the weather we have today in London, we are not going to be doing much in the way of tidal stream in the Thames, but this is the sort of day in winter—grey, no wind, renewables not otherwise generating—when we should take the opportunity to bring forward further electricity supplies.”
“I want to touch on the contracts for difference auction process and EU innovation funding. To date, the marine renewables industry has been set at £20 million, £10 million and £15 million ringfenced in the last three auctions. If we want to build a renewable energy industry with high levels of UK content, the level needs to be set—as the lead Member for this debate, the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland, has said—at £50 million for tidal stream and £5 million for wave. I am very supportive of that for this year’s renewable auction. Marine Energy Wales says that without this ringfence, Welsh tidal projects will be disadvantaged, stalling momentum and undermining the benefits already delivered by sites like Morlais. In addition to ringfenced funding domestically, we should maximise institutional flows of funds for the sector.”
“Scotland, where the Crown Estate is devolved, has successfully aligned the Crown Estate with the marine planning process and sought to make use of those local supply chains. The Scottish Government also distribute the net revenue generated by the Scottish Crown Estate marine assets to coastal local authority areas—those poor areas which we all want to seek every means we can to support. That coastal community benefit amounted to £11.1 million in 2023-24. Why are we preventing that from happening in other places? Wales should be able to do the same. The Minister will no doubt say, because this is the argument we have heard before, that devolution will fragment the market and deter investment. The success of the Scottish Crown Estate emphatically proves that not to be the case.”
“Some of the politics of Cornwall already looks to Wales for guidelines; the same question arises from Scotland regarding where the border lies with England there. None the less, from Wales’s point of view, we have suffered a long tradition of extractive industries, and that looks set to continue. There is a fair argument for the devolvement of the Crown Estate in Wales. The only argument against it is that it would cause confusion in the intervening point, but any change causes confusion. Devolution of the Crown Estate, which would give Wales, rather than the Treasury, the power to manage local supply chains is a call from many politicians in Wales—including many Welsh Labour politicians—that will not go away.”