Liz Saville Roberts
MP for Dwyfor Meirionnydd · Plaid Cymru · United Kingdom
“I speak as the chair of the new justice unions all-party parliamentary group, which hears from six trade unions representing workers across prisons, probation, policing and the courts.”
“Q9. Yr Heliwr in Nefyn is a community-owned pub, and it is buzzing with events fuelled by local beers and food. I have to declare an interest; I have shares in Yr Heliwr, and it makes my husband very happy indeed.”
“It is welcome that the UK is finally banning trade with illegal settlements in Palestine and it is right that we no longer condone economic tolerance for these settlements, which fly in the face of international law and the sovereignty of Palestine.”
“If this is a Union of equals, let me turn to the wildfires that we suffered in Wales and England this summer. The Rhinogydd mountains of Eryri national park are the last true upland wilderness in Wales. They burned for over two weeks in July, causing immeasurable damage to peatlands and wildlife.”
“I appreciate the tone of the Secretary of State’s answer. I note that the Prime Minister said yesterday that change begins with honesty, so let us be honest: harping on about the strength of the Union in the same breath as calling for change is a distraction.”
“Q5. Our new Plaid Cymru Government have laid the foundations for change, showing what Wales can achieve with the powers we have. The Prime Minister says that devolving powers means better public services, and I agree with him, but policing in Wales is still controlled from afar here in Westminster.”
The complete record
Every one of 602 lines we hold for Liz Saville Roberts, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 11 of 13.
“I welcome that the Prime Minister says that there is an appetite for a reset in our relationship with our European neighbours. A core element of collective European security is collective economic security. He knows that being outside the single market and the customs union has cost the UK economy almost £140 billion. How will he remedy this toxic Tory legacy by continuing to refuse even to consider rejoining those economic structures?”
“Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. The Secretary of State is entirely correct to say that prisons are in crisis: they have been in crisis for years, and reform is urgently necessary. It is evident that there are many people in prison who should not be there, but that is the only place that they can be—people for whom community-based prevention and rehabilitation would be way better. The last Government promised us a women’s residential centre based in Swansea, but according to an answer to my written parliamentary question earlier this year, delays and uncertainty over planning saw that proposal sidelined. Will the new Labour Government commit to succeed where the last Government so obviously and appallingly failed and facilitate the establishment of a women’s residential centre in Wales, where we have no women’s prison?”
“We will also be raising the issue of the disaster that is unfolding in Gaza and the response of this place, and how we seek justice for the people of Palestine and make sure that in future they are properly treated and recognised as a nation in the world. Again, we will be using this theatre to make sure that our voice is heard. We will therefore continue to push the UK Labour Government to be more ambitious. I heard the Prime Minister talk about the “lobby of good intentions”. Yes, there are good intentions; there are also good intentions to work together where we can, and Plaid Cymru will hold this place to account for the people of Wales.”
“We also need to heed the recommendations of experts and expand devolved powers, particularly in policing and justice, but in broadcasting too. If we are to tackle the question of the expansion of far-right populism, we need to have the means to do so through broadcasting. We also need to expand devolved powers in rail services and the Crown Estate, to name just some. Plaid Cymru will use the clear role that we have in this new Parliament to demand that Wales is treated fairly. We will, of course, also be raising with colleagues in this place the question of our relationship with our nearest neighbours. When I am standing in Pen Llŷn, the nearest capital city is not London but Dublin, and our relationship with the rest of the EU is absolutely critical since the economic damage that Brexit caused.”
“That has already been considered, because it is the policy of the Labour party in Wales, but it has not been brought forward. Given the state of our prisons as bequeathed to us by the previous Government, with their policy of 14 years of austerity, we need radical ideas to tackle that blight and the question of how we rehabilitate people and deal with justice. In Wales, of course, the key measures involved with rehabilitation and making our communities safer—namely health and housing—are already in the hands of the Senedd. We need all this in place. In recent years, Welsh devolution has been constantly undermined. It is high time to go further and pass legislation to put legal safeguards in place to protect devolved powers.”
“Investing in our children’s futures would be a real, powerful change in the here and now. Labour has committed to the idea of a taskforce, and I have to welcome that, because it is a step in the right direction. It is very interesting that that has happened today; is this the first indication of a U-turn on the part of Labour? If so, I would welcome it, and I look forward to hearing more on that. Today, Labour also committed to strengthening devolution in England. It is of course important that communities have a real say in decisions that affect them, yet similar promises were not made to Wales. Labour’s manifesto committed to strengthening the Sewel convention and to “considering”—that weasel word—the devolution of justice and policing to Wales.”
“Labour officials have repeatedly refused to make that so-called unfunded commitment, but the point—this matters—is that the decision not to fund that commitment is a political decision. Plaid Cymru has championed real change: alternative means of taxation that would enable the funding of progressive policies, such as equalising capital gains tax with income tax, which would raise £15 billion a year. Some £2.5 billion is needed to fund the abolishment of the two-child benefit cap, less than a fifth of all that potential income. Just imagine how much we could do with the remaining contribution to the public purse. Scrapping that cap alone would help lift 65,000 affected children out of poverty in Wales—that is 11% of children in Wales. Child poverty levels are unacceptably high, and this policy only increases those levels further.”
“Having had a quarter of a century of devolution in Wales under the model devised by Labour and under a Labour Government, it would be very interesting to strengthen the economy in Wales as well. Plaid Cymru’s amendment sets out that vision in plain terms. It calls for measures to reform Wales’s fiscal framework to provide consistency, transparency and fairness—replacing the Barnett formula with a needs-based formula, introducing multi-year funding settlements, and restoring the Welsh budget to 2021 spending review levels. That is how Labour could bring about real change in Wales. Indeed, what is missing from this King’s Speech is just as important as what is in it. The decision not to scrap the two-child benefit cap shows Labour’s choice not to prioritise the immediate needs of nearly a third of children in Wales who live in poverty.”
“This is an important point: when we talk about fairness, it is not a matter of begging for money from Westminster. On the one hand, it is about demanding the money that is rightly owed to Wales. People who argue for the strength of the Union—possibly from the Government Benches; it is not something that my party does—should be looking for that giving the nation of Wales fair funding. However, it is equally significant to me and my party that we have the necessary levers—the tools that we need to drive up our own economic development in Wales. We do not want to have our hands out with a begging bowl; we want the means to grow our own economy, and for that to be answerable in Wales. Interestingly, that point was raised in the King’s Speech today in relation to devolution in England.”
“That means a fairer funding deal so that we can properly invest in our public services; it means the billions owed to us from HS2 so that we can connect our communities north to south; and it means powers over our natural resources so that we can ensure energy profits are directed into Welsh communities, helping us to build an economy fit for the future and creating well-paid green jobs. Of course, we face the immediate challenge to the economy in Wales of the situation of Port Talbot. I think everybody in this House will be very much aware that we need security of supply when it comes to virgin steel for all the other projects that we hope to bring forward with net zero. The UK Government need to be working closely on finding some solution to what is happening in Port Talbot.”
“I would also like to mention Elfyn Llwyd, my predecessor, and the work that he did on stalking legislation, which I hope we will be able to strengthen. However, considering Labour’s message of change, I was disappointed not to hear about legislation to address the inadequate funding framework which leaves us short-changed in Wales. We have heard, of course, about the situation in the north of Ireland, where I believe further steps have been taken than have been taken in Wales. While Labour’s Government in Wales have been distracted by internal party politics, Plaid Cymru has reiterated our clear and credible call for fairness and ambition for Wales.”
“This morning’s King’s Speech was a different sort of Gracious Speech from that to which some of us in this House are accustomed. It was heartening to hear some positive proposals that I look forward to debating, such as measures to address the need for long-overdue improvements to employment rights, reforms to the archaic House of Lords, and the extension of VAT to private schools. I particularly look forward to working together on the issues related to violence against women and girls, and was very interested to hear the Prime Minister name some activists in this area. I put on record the name of Rhianon Bragg of Rhosgadfan in my constituency, and the work she has been doing after the experiences she suffered at the hands of her offender.”
“That principle should be cherished and defended for the sake of all our constituents. I repeat to the House what I said upon your election all those years ago: all those constituents are equal and they all deserve respect. We begin the work of representing and championing our constituents, and I have every confidence, Mr Speaker-Elect, that you will continue to ensure that representatives here are treated fairly, because our constituents should be treated fairly, too. Diolch yn fawr iawn.”
“Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llefarydd. I, too, rise to congratulate you on your re-election as Speaker of this House, and to wish you well in presiding over this historic Session of the new Parliament. I am heartened that, for the first time in history, the proportion of women elected here is over 40%. More than half of those are new to this House. It is fantastic to see steady progress towards proper representation. I would also like to take this opportunity to congratulate not just the incoming Government on their victory, but the smaller parties in this place. All of us here, whether we belong to the largest parties, the smallest parties or no parties at all, were elected in the same way. Whatever the size of our parliamentary grouping, the principle of one vote, one value is the foundation of our democracy.”
“My constituent Beverley Scott, who has cancer, suffered from poor work carried out under the Government’s ECO4 scheme. This included leaving her without heating and damaging her internet. She eventually had to go to the small claims court to get redress for shoddy work, and I know of other people who have had to follow the same route. Given that provider companies, enabled by Government strategy, leave vulnerable householders with no option but to go to court, does the Minister not agree that there should be better oversight and a simpler remedy for people like Beverley Scott?”
“Christopher Thomas of Pen Llyn was one of the first patients with haemophilia to be treated by Professor Arthur Bloom of Cardiff. Christopher died in 1990 aged 46. His wife Judith described the family’s feeling that the haematologist was a friend, because they often visited him in hospital for treatment, yet Professor Bloom is mentioned repeatedly in Sir Brian Langstaff’s report as somebody who “disastrously…over-influenced” the Department of Health and Social Security in the ’70s and ’80s. The Minister has mentioned a range of institutional failures. Surely he must agree that today we should hear more details of how legislation relating to duty of candour will be brought forward. If he cannot give us details today—I appreciate that it is not his Department that we are talking about—can he let us know when he will?”
“The hon. Lady is absolutely right to raise the situation of migratory birds. There is one tiny glimmer of hope: in Ynys Enlli on Bardsey Island, which is in my constituency, we have had Europe’s first and only dark sky sanctuary since last year. One of the key actions was to replace the bright white light of the lighthouse with a red light, thereby saving thousands of birds’ lives—previously, in one night 2,000 birds had died. We must acknowledge those little glimmers of hope, while also recognising the larger picture and its seriousness.”
“My party, Plaid Cymru, has secured a crucial win for our farmers as Labour in Wales is forced to pause the sustainable farming scheme. We have done our bit for farmers; now it is time the Prime Minister did his. Harmful trade deals and Brexit checks are hitting our world-famous Welsh lamb and beef. Will he therefore guarantee to Welsh farmers that he will never again sign a deal that threatens their interests?”
“The hon. Member is being very generous with her time. While she is mentioning the people affected, could I just raise the case of my constituent, Emily Fares, who has multiple family members in the region? They were in Rafah, but half of them have now disappeared because they were afraid in anticipation of the likely Israeli military campaign there. She tells me that these are people who have degrees and skills, who could offer so much here if only the door was not so resolutely closed against them. It begs the question: how is the humanitarian question being answered here in the UK, and why are we refusing the skills of these people?”
“The nine deaths at HMP Parc in less than three months highlight how prisoner welfare in Wales is fragmented, with responsibilities split between the Welsh Government and the MOJ. Ultimately, of course, devolution of justice will streamline responsibility, but given that health is devolved, does the Minister agree that deaths in prisons in Wales should be subject to scrutiny both here and at the Senedd’s Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee?”
“More than one in four children in Wales lives in poverty. Devolution has the capacity to transform people’s lives, but the current First Minister is distracted by questions about his integrity, deleting messages and taking dodgy donations. After 25 years since the start of devolution, does the Secretary of State agree that Governments at both ends of the M4 need to recommit to integrity and transparency?”
“My party seeks to make a difference to the lives of the people of Wales, but the Secretary of State and I are in agreement for once when it comes to his judgments in relation to the First Minister. It screams hypocrisy, however, because the Tories in the Senedd voted against a Plaid Cymru motion to set a cap on political donations, and his party has still not returned a £10 million donation from a man who made racist and misogynistic remarks. In that spirit of open democracy, will he support a cap on donations to political parties?”
“Diolch yn fawr iawn, Mr Llefarydd. This announcement comes after nine prisoners have recently lost their lives in HMP Parc in Bridgend. The Ministry of Justice says it will not step in. A private prison in Wales is an unaccountable anomaly that fails everyone—victims and prisoners alike. While we await the long anticipated devolution of justice, will the Minister tell me why, after 25 years, there is still no clarity over which ombudsman is responsible for health in Parc?”
“My constituent Emily Fares has family in Gaza. Here is her message: “We heard from our family yesterday, half of them have now fled Rafah after threatening evacuation orders fell from the sky. When we spoke to them they did not know where they were going—they mentioned al-Mawasi, but there is no building for them to stay, it is not safe there. There are no food provisions there. There is nowhere to go to the toilet, nowhere to wash. They are now utterly destitute.” Forced displacement is a war crime. The Minister’s Government have it in their power to set up a scheme for people desperate to join family in the UK. If not now, when?”
“Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llefarydd. In the Netherlands, political pressure has resulted in Tata investing in an electric arc furnace and direct reduced iron technology, all while protecting jobs and keeping blast furnaces open. The German Government are spending €2.2 billion—over four times more than the UK is spending—on transitioning the country’s steel industry towards hydrogen. Why is the UK so uniquely incapable of effective investment in our strategic steel future?”
“Food prices are 30% higher than they were three years ago, and independent estimates reckon that new border checks are equivalent to adding a 10% tariff to imports. What assessment has the Minister made of the impact that border checks will have on living standards in Welsh households, in which one in every four adults has been skipping meals to make ends meet?”
“I note what the Minister said about last Friday but, if Rwanda is truly safe, why are Rwandans excluded from being returned under this legislation? Can he give us the reasons why he and the Prime Minister refuse to accept the need to prove the safety of Rwanda as a requirement?”
“Those indicators also reveal how little effect that worthy, familiar, perhaps misused 2019 election slogan of levelling up has actually had. I know the Tories will delight in telling us that Wales has had more than our per head of population share of levelling up since then.”
“London wage earners will benefit the most, at £621 on average, while those in Wales will get only slightly more than £1 a day —£380 on average. This is not a matter of begrudging gains for some people in some communities, but what needs to be called out is the disregard for how the national insurance cuts, as a policy, will entrench inequality in different parts of the United Kingdom. There is nothing in the spring Budget to address the deep economic challenges facing Wales, such as flagging productivity. In Wales, gross value added per hour worked is 84% of that of the UK—the lowest productivity of any of the four UK nations, although it varies within Wales and in the English midlands. It plays out in different places in different ways.”
“Diolch yn fawr, Mr Dowd. I congratulate the hon. Member for Newport West (Ruth Jones) on securing this debate. The Government have tried to spin the Budget as the deliverer of long-term growth for Wales, but people’s response is at odds with the spin. The lack of faith in the Government’s rhetoric is rooted in what they experience day in, day out, and how little faith they now have in attention-seeking announcements. The real story is one of stagnating living standards, higher taxes on poorer people, cuts to public services on top of years of austerity, and food banks providing meals to working families. The Budget’s headline announcement of a 2p cut in national insurance plays out in different ways in different places.”
“After covid and in the face of a future of global unrest and accelerated climate change, the Chancellor should have prioritised long-term investment in our public services, infrastructure and communities, yet the Budget and its aftermath seem to have produced a consensus between the Tories and Labour on spending cuts, with the Institute for Fiscal Studies calling support for spending cuts a “conspiracy of silence” between the two main parties. The message should come loud and clear: as things stand, Wales gets crumbs from the table, and we can do so much better. Diolch yn fawr.”
“Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves), who drops heavy hints that Labour will go ahead with public spending cuts if it forms the next Government. My party believes that the people of Wales should have the ability to grasp the means to build our own economic destiny. Why should we not take control of our natural resources through the devolution of the Crown Estate? Why should we not create a funding system that addresses our needs and makes best use of our fair share of money from HS2 and other projects?”
“The Chancellor announced departmental spending cuts of up to £20 billion in the spring Budget. Let us be clear that those cuts will make a wasteland of our public services, and they will do so in a country, our country—Wales—where we place a high value on how a community works for everyone. I fear for the future of Welsh public services. We have already seen the Welsh Government’s refusal to step in when they defended cuts to Wales’s National Museum. I am sad that, rather than demonstrating the political courage to protect our cultural institutions, First Minister Vaughan Gething tells us to wait patiently for a future Labour Chancellor to start properly funding Wales. I fear that he is referring to the same shadow Chancellor, the right hon.”
“It has done it by providing money without sufficient time even to use it to best effect. And it has done it by ensuring that there is scant effective evaluation of money used, so that we do not even know whether it is levelling anything up for anybody. Of course, that is not the point. Levelling up was never about ensuring that Wales got not a penny less than it did under European funds. We know that we are getting £1.3 billion less. Levelling up has become a byword for cynical short-termism, lollipops for a Government to hand out with an eye to the next election—pork barrel politics. That is clear from the fact that the Budget included Canary Wharf in the £242 million of London levelling-up cash. Canary Wharf, of all places! That is hardly somewhere that needs further investment and levelling up when compared with other places in the UK.”
“They must be content with the crumbs that we get from the table with levelling up, frankly. Is the per head of population distribution really a good measure of success? Under the European funding schemes, Wales also got the highest per head of population contribution for a reason, and the reason was recognised deprivation—proven need. How has the Tory levelling-up agenda grasped the challenge of replacing the European money previously distributed specifically to lift the poorest communities out of poverty? I will tell hon. Members how it has done that. It has done it by invoking the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 to undermine the Senedd and any pretence at strategic working. It has done it by setting cash-strapped local authorities in direct competition with one another, like supplicants begging for pennies.”
“Who will be responsible if public money is not spent on levelling up because it was provided late to Welsh local authorities by the UK Government?”
“This Government pledged £1 billion to electrify the north Wales main line. We all know that that £1 billion is an uncosted number pulled out of the air. We also now know that phase 1 goes no further than Llandudno. How can the Secretary of State explain that to the people living in Ynys Môn and Gwynedd? Talk of rail electrification just means more of the same for us: slow trains, cancelled services and empty election promises.”
“The Tory leader in the Senedd opposes moves to tackle the effects of excessive numbers of holiday homes in our communities. He goes on about “anti-tourism, and anti-English policies being imposed on the Welsh tourism industry”. Now that the Tory Westminster Government are abolishing tax breaks for holiday lets, would the Secretary of State claim that his Chancellor is anti-tourism?”
“Q3. The National Theatre’s production “Nye”, which stars Michael Sheen, celebrates at its end the transformational increase in life expectancy since the founding of the NHS. However, University College London findings indicate that austerity policies between 2010 and 2019 are responsible for a three-year setback in life expectancy progress. Does the Prime Minister, or the Leader of the Opposition for that matter, think that public services can withstand an extra £20 billion of cuts?”
“The right hon. Member is giving a really interesting introduction. I am glad that he mentioned the work done by prison staff, because their work is so critical. He must agree that we have an anomaly in the justice system in Wales whereby so many of the critical support services for prisoners coming out of prison are run by the Welsh Government. That situation is not reflected anywhere else in the England and Wales legal system, and, sooner or later, that must come to a close, because it is insufficient.”
“Looking ahead to the spring Budget, I hope that the Government will show, somehow or other, that they intend to tackle the deep structural problems that Wales faces, but I will not hold my breath. For 14 years, Wales has had a UK Government who ignore and belittle our needs, wants and values, and use devolution—our democracy and our Senedd—as a political punchbag. That is bad for our democracy in the UK and in Wales, and we need to find a better way to deal with the UK as it stands.”
“First, it does not address our needs; it has not for decades. Wales’s funding floor is not based on Wales’s current assessed need, but on estimates made by the Holtham commission in 2010, which drew on—wait for it—2001 census data. Secondly, the formula is not clear or transparent. When funding is announced in England, it may take weeks or months to find out if Wales will receive Barnett consequential funding, and if so, how much. Thirdly, we all know the formula is open to political manipulation, with Wales being robbed of at least £3.9 billion through HS2 funding. Northern Ireland recently received a funding package of £3.3 billion from the UK Government to address its funding problems. If Wales were to receive an equivalent per capita funding package, it would get £5.4 billion.”
“It would allow us to have our own green industrial strategy and save bill payers over £300 million each year through offshore wind, all while generating public funds for the Welsh Government to help better people’s lives. We need only look at what is evolving in Scotland, where the Crown Estate is devolved, to see what is possible. Twenty projects approved through offshore leasing are projected to raise £28.8 billion of investment, and £700 million would be passed to the Scottish Government for public spending. So many of the problems that we experience could be solved by fair funding. That requires reviewing and replacing the outdated Barnett formula with a system that delivers equitable funding for all parts of Wales. There are several reasons why the formula must be replaced.”
“Of course we will have heard, because we are in the run-up to an election, of plans to spend HS2 money in the midlands and the north of England being detailed. A second thing that would make a real material difference to Wales would be to devolve the Crown Estate, whose asset value in Wales was £853 million, with its marine portfolio amounting to £603 million, two years ago. In 2020-21, the estate made £8.7 million, with £8.6 million from the marine portfolio. That goes directly to Treasury coffers, and 25% goes to the monarch via the sovereign grant. Imagine what we could achieve in Wales with that money. Devolving the Crown Estate would also give us rights to offshore leasing.”
“What Governments can do is invest in what will make a material difference, and of course I would propose that investing in fair consequentials for the funding allocated for HS2 would indeed make a material difference. Not only are we owed about £3.9 billion from that fiasco, but the Prime Minister, in his autumn conference speech last year, promised us the electrification of the north Wales main line route for £1 billion. He did so despite that figure being based on a 2015 case and the Welsh Government saying that no development work has been done on the project in the intervening nine years, and so I imagine that prices have changed. This was like the previous promises that were made of an electrified south Wales main line—things have also gone quiet on that front, with Transport Ministers reluctant to give a timeline.”
“It is an honour to be here again on St David’s Day, Dydd gŵyl Dewi, to discuss our separate set of circumstances, issues and problems, and to celebrate what makes Wales unique, even if we each have only five minutes to do so today. Calls for a longer period of time in future would be very welcome. This debate is particularly important this week because we are standing on the threshold of the spring Budget and we all have a duty to recognise how what we do here reverberates directly and indirectly in Wales. As each of us is a representative of the fairest constituency of Wales, we have a duty to aspire to and to seek to bring about fairness and ambition for our country. That bring us to the question of what is in the gift of the UK Government specifically to do to make a real difference.”
“I am sure the hon. Gentleman will join me in wondering about the fact that nobody would come forward to recommend the status quo and the commission did not do so, because there are evidently no advantages to the status quo in the present devolution settlement.”
“Plaid Cymru has signed Full Fact’s pledge for an honest general election campaign. One of Full Fact’s four asks is to renounce deceptive campaigning tactics. There is evidence of egregious, misleading campaigning in Wales and elsewhere by the Conservatives in recent weeks. We all have a responsibility to campaign honestly, because the alternative is to be complicit in dismantling democracy. Therefore, will the Prime Minister sign Full Fact’s pledge for an honest election?”
“The Foreign Secretary has called for a stop to the fighting now, but the Ministry of Defence signed a contract with arms manufacturer Elbit Systems on 17 January. That company reportedly supplies up to 85% of Israel’s drones and land-based military equipment. The Minister called for advice in looking at how arms are exported. Does he not agree that in light of that, the UK’s approach appears to be deeply hypocritical? What advice does he need to stop the sales of arms?”
“The hon. Gentleman is advancing a powerful argument. If we are to persuade people that SMRs are suitable for use outside conventional nuclear sites, siting them in places such as Dungeness and Trawsfynydd which do not fit under the 2011 list conveys an important message. We have to be able to persuade people that small modular reactors can be used in other areas, as well as not misusing sites that might be better used for larger nuclear projects.”