Wera Hobhouse
MP for Bath · Liberal Democrat · United Kingdom
“Q4. Community energy is a fantastic way of empowering communities and helping with both energy security and the cost of living. The Energy Security and Net Zero Committee recently published a report in which we identified that people living around a community energy project still cannot buy that electricity because of complex market regul…”
“The 20% rate cut for music venues and pubs is of course very welcome, but what my high street in Bath really needs is an overhaul of the business rates system, which the Labour Government promised.”
“First, it would help us properly understand the scale of the problem. Without consistent recording, misogyny remains largely invisible in official data, despite being a common factor in many forms of abuse. Secondly, it would improve accountability.”
“That means that misogynistic content is not just present; it is incentivised and rewarded. For victims, the impact is devastating. They are ridiculed and humiliated, they face reputational damage, and they are left fearing for their safety in public.”
“The Government’s amendment to the Crime and Policing Act to recognise misogyny as an aggravating factor in some crimes is a welcome step in the right direction, but they must go further. That means amending the Sentencing Act 2020 so that all crimes motivated by misogyny are classed as hate crimes.”
“It is a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Sir Edward. I congratulate the hon. and learned Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Tony Vaughan) on introducing the debate so thoughtfully. For months, I have been campaigning for legislation to combat the alarming trend of nightlife filming.”
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“T3. I recently visited a local GP surgery which is short of a third of the staff that it needs. Surgeries are finding it increasingly difficult to retain staff owing to stress and burnout. Do the Government recognise that it is stress and burnout that make it so difficult for us to retain GPs in their profession, and for them to retain their staff? If so, what on earth are they going to do about it?”
“May I also welcome the right hon. Lady back to her place? A bit of continuity is very welcome. Voices, a local charity in my constituency, has highlighted the devastating impact that the cost of living is having on women suffering from domestic abuse. A third of respondents to a Women’s Aid survey said that they found it impossible or very hard to leave their abuser. Could we have a debate in Government time on this unique problem that the cost of living crisis is posing for women suffering domestic abuse? I know the Leader of the House will say that I should apply for a Backbench Business debate, but showing Government support on this important issue would be very welcome.”
“May I ask again: is a simple apology now enough for anybody who breaches the ministerial code and gets reinstated after six days without any inquiry?”
“Please ban section 21 evictions now, Prime Minister.”
“We must unfreeze the local housing allowance to ensure that benefits are closely aligned with rent rates, and we need to introduce mandatory licensing to stop rogue landlords once and for all. The Liberal Democrats would introduce a new regulator for all private renters and require all private landlords with more than 25 homes to register with it. I personally would go further; everybody should register, so that we can make sure that we have only good rented accommodation for renters in this country, who will increase in number. More and more people live in rented homes. People are worrying about whether they will have a roof over their head. We have a new Government; where is the promised reform? I call on the new Prime Minister to end section 21 evictions. Today would be a good day, or maybe tomorrow or next week.”
“Nearly 20,000 households in England faced homelessness last year as a result of section 21. The number is set to rise in the cost of living crisis. Our renting laws provide little security. They make it very difficult to plan for eviction. Renters have been living with huge uncertainty during the recent economic shocks. Research by Shelter found that last year nearly 40% of private renters felt anxious and experienced increased mental health issues because of housing problems. People are being placed under horrific stress by rising bills and prices. We must do all we can to ensure that tenants have a safe place to live. Ending section 21 evictions should be just the start. We must promote longer tenancies to give renters more security.”
“Shorthold tenancies leave renters at risk of significant rent increases and unfair no-fault evictions. The English housing survey found that a quarter of private renting households in England were finding it difficult to pay rent. The south-west is particularly struggling. Rent prices are soaring in my constituency of Bath. I see constituent after constituent who is at the end of what they can do; they are in a desperate situation. Renters are already experiencing excruciating pressure. The support has not kept up with the real cost of living and the real cost of renting. That leaves people with a choice of either paying rent or buying food. Numerous organisations have warned that the current crisis will increase homelessness. Section 21, which is already a leading cause of homelessness, will make that even worse.”
“Private renters may complain to their landlord about problems that the landlord should fix, including damp and mould, but in the case of rogue landlords, that sometimes makes it even more likely that they will face eviction. Indeed, private renters who complain about such issues are almost twice as likely to be evicted within six months than those who say nothing. We are creating an atmosphere of fear: people do not say to their landlord directly what needs sorting out, although they are living in unsuitable accommodation. As a landlord, I do not want that. I want people to have good housing, and I do not want other private landlords to get away with providing unsuitable accommodation. People should never be forced to live in poor conditions because they are frightened of an unreasonable landlord.”
“Severe shortages of social housing mean that more people depend on the private rental market, which can be expensive and insecure. Section 21 evictions make these issues worse. They tie renters into insecure situations and leave landlords with total control. Earlier this year, Shelter found that since the Government’s original commitment to the ban, more than 200,000 private renters were served with a section 21 eviction notice. That gives private renters just two months to find another home, uprooting their entire life, as we have heard. Section 21 evictions create a culture of fear among private renters. They give landlords the leverage to exert undue power.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Ms Nokes. I refer the House to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. I, too, think that we need reform for renters. I disagree with the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) that all landlords think that that would be detrimental to them. There has to be a partnership between landlords and renters, and in most cases that goes very well, but we need to protect renters more. That is my firm conviction as a landlord and as a Liberal Democrat Member of Parliament. As the cost of living rises, people in my constituency facing a choice between paying unsustainable rent or becoming homeless. People have been put in a desperate situation, one that is shameful for the fifth richest country in the world.”
“Is it not true that family members often do what they do out of love and that, in many ways, they find it difficult to come forward and claim the financial support they need for the hours they put in looking after their loved ones?”
“Our current laws mean that employers do not know how to respond to cases appropriately, which leaves people who have encountered traumatic experiences unsupported. Introducing a standalone preventive duty for employers will shift the responsibility from individuals to the institution. It will prevent harassment and protect victims, and it will drive a change in the culture around victim blaming. I urge that this House supports my Bill, enshrining in law historic measures to protect employees from harassment in the workplace. I thank everybody across the House who has given support to this Bill and already committed to serving on the Committee that will ensure that the Bill progresses through the House.”
“Let me finish by turning away from the technical details of the Bill, and return to the wider set of circumstances that makes it important for us to pass this legislation. An unacceptable number of nurses, paramedics, bar staff, people who were key workers during the pandemic and everyone in between are being subject to a form of harassment that causes a variety of harms, including psychological, physical and economic harm. Employers should be required both morally and legally to take all reasonable steps to stop sexual harassment from occurring. The fact that the law of this country does not compel them to do so is a concern. For too long the onus for challenging sexual harassment has been on individuals.”
“To ensure that employers are as informed as possible about the proposed changes, which will come into force 12 months after Royal Assent, the Government Equalities Office will support the Equality and Human Rights Commission in creating a statutory code of practice on sexual harassment and harassment in the workplace. This will be based on the technical guidance that the Equality and Human Rights Commission published in 2020 and will be introduced as the new legislation comes into force. The Equality and Human Rights Commission will have a duty to consult on this code of practice in advance. In the meantime, the Government Equalities Office has produced guidance for employers on how to prevent sexual harassment, which I understand it is looking to publish in due course.”
“Compensation will be assessed in the usual way for Equality Act claims, with the same uplift outlined earlier available in cases where a breach of duty has also been established following a successful third-party sexual harassment case. A claim for third-party harassment could be brought after a single incident of harassment. This replaces the previous “three strikes” formulation, whereby employers needed to know of two previous incidents of third-party harassment before they could be considered liable, but employers will be able to rely on the “all reasonable steps” defence in the usual way.”
“Clause 1 would make employers liable for the harassment of their staff by third parties, such as customers and clients, where they have failed to take all responsible steps to prevent such harassment from happening. These protections will apply to all acts of third-party harassment in the workplace, including racial as well as sexual harassment. Once again, there will be a system of dual enforcement. Individuals will be able to bring claims to an employment tribunal in the usual way for work-related cases under the Equality Act 2010. The Equality and Human Rights Commission will have strategic enforcement powers.”
“This means that women would be able to inform the Equality and Human Rights Commission of any concerns without necessarily having to take forward legal action against their employer. In addition, the employer’s duty will be enforceable by the employment tribunal in individual cases. Where the employment tribunal has found in favour of an individual claim of sexual harassment and has ordered compensation to be paid, the tribunal will examine whether and to what extent the duty has been breached. Where a breach is found, tribunal judges will have the power to order an uplift of up to 25% of the compensation awarded. The Bill will also introduce explicit protections against third-party harassment in the workplace.”
“That will not require employers to do anything substantially more than what they currently must do to avoid legal liability for acts of harassment carried out by their employees, but it would mean that employers could potentially be further held to account if they have failed to take those actions, first by an uplift in the compensation awarded at an employment tribunal, and secondly through the EHRC’s strategic enforcement. That will, I hope, push employers to prioritise prevention of sexual harassment, including through improving workplace practices and culture. The new duty would operate through dual enforcement. The EHRC may take enforcement action for a breach or suspected breach of the duty under its strategic enforcement policy.”
“Currently the question of whether employers have taken adequate steps to prevent sexual harassment arises only as a defence if an incident of sexual harassment has already occurred. That means that employers are not required to take actions that prevent sexual harassment. Indeed, the EHRC found in 2018 that only a minority of employers had effective processes in place to prevent and address sexual harassment. The Bill would provide the shift in focus that is so desperately needed. Clause 2 would ensure that employers prioritise prevention by imposing a new duty on them to take “all reasonable steps” to prevent their employees from experiencing workplace sexual harassment.”
“Statistics show that only 45% of managers felt supported by their organisation when reports were made to them. Ultimately, the current laws leave people who have encountered traumatic experiences unsupported. We can and must do better. The Government agree that more needs to be done to tackle sexual harassment in the workplace. In their 2021 response to a consultation on workplace sexual harassment, the Government committed to introduce a new preventative duty for employers, to provide more explicit protections from harassment by third parties, and to support the EHRC to develop a new statutory code of practice on workplace harassments. For things to improve, we need a shift in focus from redress to prevention.”
“It therefore goes without saying that any reporting could have direct career implications for those involved. Whether sexual harassment is by a third party or not, employers have not done enough to prevent and punish it. The Equality and Human Rights Commission found that in nearly half of cases reported, the employer took no action, minimised the incident or placed the responsibility on the employee to avoid the harasser. It seems that the risks of reporting sexual harassment can outweigh the merits. That is disgraceful in modern Britain. The problem is that the current laws on sexual harassment mean that employers often adopt individual responses to institutional problems. That creates space for employers to minimise what is going on and leads to confusion about how to respond appropriately.”
“Some 1.5 million people have been harassed by a third party, meaning that clients or customers were allowed to harass 1.5 million workers. Workplace sexual harassment is widespread and widely under-reported. A TUC survey suggested that 79% of women do not report their experience of sexual harassment, for many reasons including fear of repercussions, lack of awareness regarding their rights and fear of not being taken seriously. Those concerns are heightened for people of colour, people in the LGBT+ community and people with disabilities, who already face greater discrimination in the workplace. It is understandable why people do not come forward. For one, it is not just third parties who harass people, with 20% of surveyed women suggesting that their direct manager or someone else with direct authority over them was the perpetrator.”
“Even for those who are not compelled by the moral reasoning behind increased protection from workplace harassment, it is hard to ignore the economic arguments. The 2018 Presidents Club scandal highlighted the extent to which people are currently unprotected by the law. In that instance, young female hostesses were allegedly sexually harassed by businessmen at a notorious men-only dinner, being instructed to wear “black, sexy shoes” and black underwear. Those women, who faced violations of their dignity, would not have had recourse to the law as it stands. Sexual harassment by third parties is a major problem in the UK. A 2017 survey suggested that 18% of those who had experienced workplace sexual harassment said that the perpetrators were clients or customers.”
“My thanks also go to the Women and Equalities Committee, whose inquiry into workplace harassment led to a 2018 report that was influential in driving the proposed changes in the law. For too long, women and girls have been unsafe in the workplace. An Opinium survey suggests that 20% of the UK population have experienced some form of sexual harassment in the workplace. That is more than 10 million people—a shocking number. It is therefore right and imperative that the law changes to protect people in work. In these testing times, such legislation is more important than ever. Harassment is both morally unacceptable and bad for the economy. Evidence suggests that disrespectful and abusive work practices lead to lower performance and productivity and increased staff turnover.”
“I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. I was very excited to be placed 15th out of 20 in the private Members’ Bills ballot earlier this year. My number was 461 because in 2017 I was the 461st woman ever to be elected to Parliament. I owed it to my winning number to introduce a Bill that would improve women’s equalities, rights and protections. The Bill will protect not only women but all employees from sexual harassment in the workplace, but the great majority of people affected by the new legislation will be women. I thank the Fawcett Society and the Government Equalities Office for their tireless work on drafting the Bill and for many prior years of campaigning.”
“I thank everybody for their support for the Bill. As has been said, this issue does not affect only women; it affects anybody who is in work and should be protected from harassment. It should particularly introduce a culture change so that harassment in the workplace is a thing of the past. I thank hon. Members across the House, and look forward to the progress of the Bill. Question put and agreed to. Bill accordingly read a Second time; to stand committed to a Public Bill Committee (Standing Order No. 63).”
“MPs should be allowed to vote according to their judgment and without being harassed or bullied. Can the Leader of the House clarify what happened in the No Lobby, according to her observations? Does she agree that yesterday’s events cast a very bad light on the professionalism of our Parliament?”
“Although it has been worsened by the pandemic, the emergency is not new. Most importantly—I am repeating what many have said this afternoon—the Government must reform the NHS dental contracts, which create absurd disincentives for dentists taking on new NHS patients. A review was promised earlier this year. Where is it? Oral health cannot be treated as an afterthought and my constituents cannot wait any longer.”
“The Government admit that they do not know how many dental practices applied to access the extra £50 million of funding announced earlier this year. To me, that means that they are asleep at the wheel. The Government must make sure that we have enough dentists if support for the sector is to be effective. We need increased numbers of dentist training places in the UK and continued recognition of EU trained dentists’ qualifications. Dentists must be incentivised to take NHS payments and there needs to be more funding for the sector to meet patient demand. Everyone in the UK should be able to access a dental health check-up on the NHS. Proper workforce planning for health and social care must be written into law, including projections for dentists and dental staff. The crisis facing NHS dentistry is on an unprecedented scale.”
“People should not be facing a choice between being left in pain and paying for private care as we head into this difficult winter. We must do all we can to make sure that they can access the right services and that we address these profound health inequalities. One of the major reasons for the backlog is staff shortages in the NHS. The number of NHS dentists is falling: one in eight is approaching retirement and 14% are close to leaving the profession. My constituents have been particularly affected: nearly 15% of dentists have been lost from Bath clinical commissioning group since 2016. At a time when demand for NHS services is increasing, we urgently need a strategy to plug these very big staffing gaps.”
“Our public services are so starved of funding that people are being forced to stop trying, or to pay for private treatment. The British Dental Association says that we are facing an “existential threat”. People’s health is at risk if they do not have access to dentistry. Tooth decay is the No. 1 reason for hospital admissions among young children. Oral cancer is one of the fastest-rising types of cancer, and claims more lives than car accidents in the UK: we should remember that. People in deprived communities are the most likely to suffer. Healthwatch research shows that those on lower incomes are worst hit by appointments shortages. The problem has been made worse by the pandemic, which increased the backlog, but the problem was there before. Limited access to such primary care means that problems cannot be caught early.”
“I have been horrified—honestly horrified—to hear reports of people pulling out their own teeth because they are unable to see a dentist. Unfortunately, that is now a reality as a result of Government underfunding of dentistry over many years. In my constituency, only three in 10 patients have seen an NHS dentist in the past two years and only six in 10 children have been able to see a dentist in the past 12 months, although the NHS continues to recommend that all under-18s see a dentist at least once a year. The way in which the Government have let the NHS dentistry system collapse is a national scandal. Nearly a quarter of all British people have failed to secure a local NHS dentist appointment in the last year. Of those, one in five have resorted to what we now call DIY dentistry, which is terrible.”
“The hon. Gentleman makes a very good point that, basically, private patients have been cross-financing NHS patients, but that model is no longer sustainable.”
“I was pleased to hear that the mother of the hon. Member for Salisbury (John Glen) has had excellent NHS dental care in Bath, and of course dentists are excellent practitioners and professionals. The thing is that his mother will have been a long-term NHS patient and the problem is that dentists do not take on new NHS patients, because the dental contract completely disincentivises them to do so.”
“Does the Minister recognise that because of the abnormalities of the dental contract, and dentists not knowing which patients they are getting, NHS dentists would rather take a patient whom they already know, and whose history of dental problems or otherwise they know, rather than taking somebody they have never seen? There is a disincentive to take on new patients, but there is a continuity for those who are already with an NHS dentist.”
“2030, the year in which polluting vehicles will no longer be produced or sold, is fast approaching. The Government must act to reform road tax if they are to avoid yet another huge black hole opening up in their finances. No form of change will be easy, but the sooner change is made the easier it will be. The main form of vehicle tax in the UK is fuel duty, which is nearly 53% added to every litre of fuel paid for at the petrol pump. Fuel duty raises approximately £28 billion a year for the Treasury. That is alongside the 28% VAT that is paid on fuel sales.”
“I beg to move, That this House has considered reform of the vehicle taxation system. I am delighted to bring this matter to Westminster Hall for debate. There is an urgent need for reform of our vehicle taxation system, for both fiscal and environmental reasons. The public understand that change must come; they look to the Government for clarity on the path to be followed. I hope that the Minister will be able to aid that process today. She will recognise that the future of travel is changing every year; Britain’s transport networks and habits are moving into the net zero era. Electric vehicle ownership is rising, as people try to help the planet and their wallets. Battery electric vehicles, or EVs, made up 14% of the new cars sold so far this year, and more electric vehicles were sold last year than in the previous five years combined.”
“The conversion of older cars would help lower-income families who are struggling with the cost of living crisis, while also being part of the movement to less carbon-intensive transport options. If we are to transition to net zero sustainably, the Government must find a way to fill the taxation income gap caused by declining fuel duty. The Government’s own net zero strategy from 2021 states that the taxation of motoring must keep pace with electric vehicles. I understand that the Treasury has said in the past that the level of income from motorists should stay about the same in future, but how can that be achieved?”
“If the Government are serious about encouraging the uptake of electric vehicles, they must ensure that the infrastructure is there. That would be of great benefit to my constituents in Bath and to the wider south-west, as our region is the second largest in the country for electric vehicle uptake. Other incentives could include providing grants for electric car conversion. The conversion of old cars has significant benefits. For example, the carbon footprint of producing a new car is far higher than that created by continuing to use an old car. Currently, buying a new electric car is not an easy option for many people who do not have off-road parking or their own charging facilities.”
“Absolutely. We see that people are facing great problems in rural communities and it is important to make short-term interventions to help them. However, I am really talking today about what vehicle taxation will look like in the long term, once we transition to net zero. Nevertheless, I fully take the point made by my hon. Friend. On the other hand, drivers of electric vehicles pay no fuel duty. The Government need to continue incentivising the use of electric vehicles for environmental reasons. However, there are many ways in which that can be done without subsidising fuel duty. One option is to increase the number of public electric vehicle charging points. So far, the UK has only 31 electric vehicle charging points and only six rapid charging points per 100,000 people.”
“Reforming the system towards pay-as-you-go would also bring transparency to vehicle taxation. Many drivers are unaware of the level of fuel duty that exists within the price that they pay for fuel. It is important that we bring clarity and openness to the vehicle taxation system when we reform it. We must do everything possible to reach our net zero targets. However, that transition needs to be sustainable and accessible. Pay-as-you-drive is a progressive way of solving the problem of declining fuel duty revenue. In particular, it would encourage much more sustainable transport habits. Clearly, pay-as-you-drive schemes must be combined with more investment in public transport and environmentally friendly infrastructure. I look forward to the Minister’s response.”
“Those reforms cannot exist in a vacuum and must be part of a wider conversation on how we move people away from private cars and on to environmentally friendly public transport. In the Campaign for Better Transport survey, 69% of respondents stated that a key element of making the entire system fairer for drivers was to make public transport cheaper. The Liberal Democrats would seek to give new powers to local authorities and communities to improve transport in their areas. That would include the ability to introduce network-wide ticketing, like that in London, and greater powers to franchise bus services and simplify the franchise application system. We would also reverse the ban on local authorities setting up their own bus companies, which should give councils the tools to make transport accessible for everyone.”
“Cars make up 55% of that figure, while lorries and vans make up 32%. Buses, coaches, and rail collectively account for just less than 5%, according to Government figures. A system based on rewarding those who drive less, rather than a flat rate, could lead many members of the public to use their cars less and use public transport more. The idea that drivers who drive more should pay more in tax, and that those who drive less should pay less, was popular in the survey and it is clearly the right direction to take. There is no doubt that ensuring investment in public transport, including reforms to the integration of bus and rail ticketing systems, is critical to a functioning pay-as-you-drive system.”
“That would keep fuel duties as they are for existing petrol and diesel vehicles, and those duties would wither away as those cars disappear from our roads. Another option is replacing fuel duty and vehicle excise duty, with a set per-mile charge based on the emissions level of the vehicle. That could be estimated at the annual MOT mileage check. Lastly, we could replace fuel and excise duty with a smart per-mile charge that varies with vehicle type, emissions, location and time of day. The main argument in favour of pay-as-you-drive comes from the need to reduce the number of people driving to lower congestion and reduce air pollution and carbon emissions. The transport sector is now the biggest source of domestic greenhouse gas emissions and accounts for 28% of all emissions.”
“The Climate Change Committee report to Parliament this year noted that road pricing “will be necessary” in the longer term. It recommended that the Government implement it “later this decade”. The Select Committee on Transport has recommended smart pricing, as has the Policy Exchange, the AA, and the Social Market Foundation. For the first time in a long time, consensus is beginning to emerge. When pay-as-you-drive was initially pitched in the Campaign for Better Transport survey, 42% of respondents supported the idea, with 21% saying “No”. After the concept had been explained and questions answered, the percentage in favour rose to 49%, with opposition dropping to just 18%. Pay-as-you-drive can come in many forms, but there are three options worth considering. One is a flat per-mile charge for electric vehicles.”
“In the Campaign for Better Transport report, 60% of respondents agreed that there was a need to reform the vehicle taxation system. What options are available to Government and are these options fair in the eyes of constituents? Pay-as-you-go, or pay-as-you-drive, is worthy of consideration. It is widely regarded by experts as a progressive step forward. A pay-as-you-drive system could charge drivers directly per mile driven with a set distance charge. Another alternative could be smart road pricing, whereby the charge per mile varies depending on different factors. The Treasury would have the option of applying this equally to all vehicles. Alternatively, it could create a series of levels based on emitting status and/or the location where the person is driving.”
“That is in contrast to wealthier households with newer, more fuel-efficient vehicles. According to Policy Exchange research, someone with a new car could pay half the amount of fuel duty compared with the owner of an older car. Other findings from the report show that 65% of those surveyed believe that electric vehicle owners need to pay tax to use the road system. Drivers felt that people with electric vehicles are effectively driving tax free, while those who are unable to switch—largely for financial reasons—must pay. We must encourage the take-up of electric vehicles to reach net zero. However, the public are acutely aware that Britain’s finances are under pressure after the recent economic shocks. Money must be found somewhere. There is evidence that the current vehicle taxation system is not fit for purpose, and the public agree.”
“The motivation then was to cut pollution and reduce congestion, particularly in larger cities. Our most urgent need now is getting to net zero and, while doing that, looking at the immediate financial implications that I have mentioned. I want to draw the Minister’s attention to an excellent report released just a few days ago by the Campaign for Better Transport. The report tested options for a national road pricing system with a large cross-section of the public. The good news is that the public appear to be open to the idea of road pricing, otherwise known as pay-as-you-drive. In the survey, nearly 50% of respondents felt that fuel duties were unfair. That is unsurprising. Low-income households are more likely to have older, more polluting and less fuel-efficient cars and to pay more fuel duty per mile travelled.”
“I totally agree. We need some clarity and something that motorists across the country can see as a coherent strategy, rather than the patchwork that the hon. Gentleman spoke about. One approach would be a scheme based on mileage. Other factors, such as emission levels or road type, could be added into the mix. Road pricing, as it is often referred to, is not a new idea. The Liberal Democrats proposed a version of it in our 2010 manifesto. It has been explored in depth many times. So far, no noticeable progress has been made towards its adoption and the hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that we need to act and find ways forward quickly. Nearly 20 years ago, the then Transport Secretary said that road pricing was 10 years away, but we do not have another 10 years to waste.”
“Does the Minister agree that the principle of all new taxation has to be that we disincentivise people from using their cars and incentivise more use of public transport? Ultimately, that is the most sustainable way to go forward.”