Jamie Stone
MP for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross · Liberal Democrat · United Kingdom
“While I am very fond of the hon. Member for Moray West, Nairn and Strathspey (Graham Leadbitter), the House will not be surprised to hear that I do not hang on his every word.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dr Murrison. I congratulate the hon. Member for Lichfield (Dave Robertson), my good friend and colleague on the Petitions Committee, on his excellent introduction to this debate.”
“It is not really pertinent to the Minister, but those fledgling and now grown-up companies would not have come into being had it not been for a key decision taken by Harold Wilson’s Labour Government in the 1960s, which was to put in place the Highlands and Islands Development Board.”
“My point is that these companies actually teach vital local skills that would not otherwise be taught, create jobs in some of the remotest areas of the United Kingdom and provide a tourist product, which is absolutely crucial when it comes to visitors. When people, including right hon. and hon.”
“Just to be absolutely tidy, could I make a plea on behalf of those families where the member is deceased but the estate still has a claim? There is sometimes, possibly wrongly, an impression that these people are put to the back of the queue. Could I have an assurance that that would not be the case?”
“I want to raise the case of Hughie Stirling from Ullapool. He was on board a flotilla proceeding to Gaza with aid when the Israelis intercepted them in international waters and took them into custody. His partner tells me that he and others were shockingly mistreated—we are talking about physical abuse and even being beaten up.”
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“However, in many religions—including my own, Christianity—there are variations in the interpretation of religious laws. Leaders of more liberal branches may be more open to interpreting religious law in the light of modern customs and welfare standards. However, it has to be said that more orthodox factions may still consider changes to traditional methods as a serious offence.”
“My hon. Friend makes her point with some passion; I will touch on that point in a second. Such provisions include post-cut stunning for ruminants, minimum-stun parameters for poultry and mandatory slaughter labelling. Conversely, it is crucial that we properly and thoughtfully consider the other side of the debate: namely, the religious communities that require this method of slaughter for halal and kosher practices. Proponents of those practices argue that banning non-stun slaughter would violate their freedoms. The teachings of the Jewish and Muslim religions state that an animal must be fully alive before it is slaughtered. Accordingly, the stunning of an animal before slaughter may be interpreted as not being compliant with such religious teachings.”
“However, other fellow neighbours, including France and Germany, still allow for non-stun slaughter on religious grounds. All of this is to say that this debate requires nuance—careful nuance—and sensibility to all the views in the room, regardless of the beliefs that one holds.”
“As an aside, it is important to note that the petition follows the European Court of Human Rights ruling that a ban on the ritual slaughter of animals without prior stunning does not violate the European convention on human rights. This is because the Court accepts that “the protection of animal welfare can be linked to…‘public morality’, which constitutes a legitimate aim” for which the state might justifiably restrict freedom of religion. In this case, the Court accepted that it was consistent with these standards to legislate that animals should be stunned before being ritually slaughtered. As I am sure many of us know, several European countries have already introduced a ban, including Denmark, Slovenia, Sweden, Finland and Norway.”
“In the case of animal-welfare advocates, one could suggest that our current laws are already examples of the way religious practices have adapted in accordance with modern ethical standards, and that it is therefore entirely just for these practices to further adhere to society’s standards as those continue to strengthen. Conversely, to be balanced about this, proponents of traditional religious practice could argue that the current regulations typify compromises that have already been made between religion and law in a society like ours, which—I think this is crucial to the way we go about doing things in this country—actively supports and protects religious freedom or belief. That is a crucial factor.”
“Thirdly, and importantly, the slaughter must be done in a way that follows Jewish or Islamic religious practice when intended for consumption by Jewish or Muslim people. Now, this is the gory bit: the animal’s throat must be cut by a rapid, uninterrupted movement, with both carotid arteries and jugular veins severed by a knife of sufficient size and sharpness. There is to be no sawing. These measures are required to minimise animal suffering. I am sorry if that is shocking, but I think we need to be quite clear about the practice as it is. These existing regulations prompt deliberations on both sides of the argument.”
“I am prepared to be informed on that point. In my discussions with both the Jewish and Muslim communities, I actually learned a very great deal myself. I found particularly fascinating the fact that the method used is scripture-based, and I think that is important to remember. After all that has been said so far, if we thought that the slaughtering of animals according to religious practice went unregulated in this country, we would be very wrong, because there are certain requirements. First, the killing must take place in a slaughterhouse—an abattoir, if people want to call it that—approved by the Food Standards Agency. Secondly, it must be done by someone who has a certificate of competence, known as the COC.”
“However, I want to end where I began, by thanking Mr Martin Osborne for the sincere way in which he put forward the petition. I also thank those I have spoken with, who have had the patience to explain the halal and the Jewish kosher points of view. I am grateful to have learned a lot over the past few days.”
“From my discussions with the Islamic and Jewish communities, I think that the concept of labelling—if I interpret what the hon. Gentleman said correctly—could be quite acceptable to them, if that would give people choice. I come from the highlands of Scotland, where, to be honest, the 1715 and 1745 rebellions were based on the religious division between Catholics and Protestants, and where there have been huge arguments even within the Church of Scotland in relation to the Free Church. I am therefore very clear that tolerance among religions is crucial to a civilised society. I have probably said enough. I can see many hon. Members who, I am sure, will make the most interesting contributions, and I look forward to the Minister’s.”
“I thank everyone who has spoken. People all over Britain who care about animals will be going online and watching this debate. The Muslim and Jewish communities will have been watching—we know that these debates have huge viewing figures. We have conducted this debate in a civilised fashion, and I think that will give people such as the petitioner and others the reassurance that when a petition comes here for debate, it will not just be put in a bag behind the Speaker’s Chair or put on a dusty shelf; it will be properly looked at. I hope I am not over-egging it when I say that that is quite good for British democracy. Question put and agreed to. Resolved, That this House has considered e-petition 700557 relating to the non-stun slaughter of animals.”
“In terms of encouraging public participation in democracy and in politics, I have found that school visits are constructive, even in the far north of Scotland, and that is on a strictly non-party political basis. What thoughts might the Government have about encouraging other MPs to engage in that way? It is informative and constructive.”
“The hon. Member is making an excellent speech. He refers to the pollution of watercourses; in my constituency, the salmon fishing industry is hugely important to tourism and the local economy, so that could be a disaster waiting to happen.”
“It does feel as if the technology is racing way ahead of the statutory authorities of the Scottish and UK Governments and that we are playing catch up. We are being left behind in a cloud of dust, and that worries me enormously. We have heard about the dangers of a battery fire—of thermal runaway. In the north of Scotland, where I represent, we are no strangers to extremely cold weather. Alnaharra in my constituency is always the coldest place in the winter. Cold temperatures can affect the batteries; they can change their lifespan and their mix.”
“As you can see, Madam Deputy Speaker, I have come to the Chamber with a pre-prepared speech, but really everything has already been said. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Horsham (John Milne) for securing this debate. I also want to thank everyone who has contributed—this sounds like a winding-up speech, but it is not. Whereas normally I would email my speech to people who have approached me on an issue, in this case I will just email the whole debate as it is published in Hansard , because so many of the concerns have been addressed, fleshed out and aired. There are proposals in my constituency, way up in the north of Scotland, to have power lines from Spittal in Caithness to Lochbuie and Beauly in Inverness—it is massive—and there are lots of applications for battery storage systems.”
“I would be very grateful if the Minister would take a look at what comes out of that meeting, because I think it will be helpful to both the UK Government and the Scottish Government. Let us have renewable energy, but let us get it right.”
“She has been bravely standing up saying, “I think we need to have a way of structuring this that takes the communities with us, that does not seem that we are imposing something from on high.” She is referring to batteries, grid improvements and so on. Nobody is saying that they do not believe in getting to net zero, but let us take people with us when we do it. I drop a little hint to the Minister and the colleagues of the hon. Member for Aberdeen North in Edinburgh that there will be a meeting of a large group of community councils on 14 June in Inverness-shire. They are reasonable people, and under Scottish law, a community council is a statutory consultee on planning matters.”
“I totally endorse what is being said about the Health and Safety Executive. In Scotland it should be HSE, the Scottish Environmental Protection Agency, and the Fire and Rescue Service. I take great heart from what the hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Kirsty Blackman) has been saying—thank goodness that this is being taken seriously. In conclusion, we should not simply forge ahead with this sort of stuff until we know exactly what we are doing. To be helpful, I shall namecheck one person. She is a councillor in the highlands. She is not a member of my party—Members can google her later and find out of which party she is a member. She is called Helen Crawford.”
“I, like others, am left in awe by the diligence of the research that has been carried out by the right hon. Member. Yes, that is absolutely correct; we just do not quite know what happens. We have heard that if one battery catches fire, it can ignite fires in other batteries, but I will not go over that again. Where possibly high-risk infrastructure is proposed for a community, we must surely have mitigation. And yes, we should have a complete consultation with the authorities and those responsible. In Caithness, we have only five fire stations, and they do not have enough personnel, let alone faintly enough water, to tackle such a fire. The authorities want to build a battery near the Castle of Mey where the King sometimes stays, but they ain’t got the troops to sort that one out, absolutely not.”
“Fire services are devolved to the Scottish Government. I do not think that the hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Kirsty Blackman) would disagree that co-ordination on this matter between the devolved Administrations and the UK Government, so that we are singing off the same hymn sheet, is crucial.”
“The hon. Gentleman is making an excellent speech. I learned to swim as a boy at Tain Royal Academy in my hometown of Tain. A new school is being built, and the old school, complete with its pool, will be shut shortly. Alas, plans have fallen through to build a new pool, so my hometown could be without a swimming pool for at least a year. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that in Scotland as much as in England and Wales, it is crucial that local authorities get to grips with this? For my community to be without a swimming pool for that length of time is a joke, and it has upset people massively.”
“I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will share my dismay that death by drowning is twice as common per head of population in Scotland as it is in England. Does that not say something about the under-provision that we currently have north of the border?”
“People living in the north of Scotland are forced to pay extortionate delivery charges for goods they order from further south—charges that are far higher than people in Glasgow, Edinburgh or Birmingham have to pay. This is a fundamental injustice. Could we have a debate in Government time on something that is very wrong indeed?”
“I was a little startled to be described as sitting on the “other Government Bench”, but perhaps that is the shape of things to come—who knows? I do not have my crystal ball with me. There has been a predictably negative barrage from the Opposition, which does not surprise me because that is how we work in this place, but thinking of businesses, there are businesses that from this year will get better in my constituency and, indeed, in that of the hon. Member for Angus and Perthshire Glens (Dave Doogan). I am talking about the seed potato industry. We have been crying out to get the best Scottish seed potatoes into European markets, and I therefore do thank the Government. It means a lot to farmers, and I have had very positive comments about it. I am being absolutely fair-minded about that.”
“Scottish councils now have the power to introduce a tourism levy. That has gone down extremely badly with the hospitality sector. In particular, they fear a tax on a tax—that would be VAT. Will the Government look at zero rating that in the event that a tourism levy is introduced?”
“It may or may not come as a surprise to the House that I was once a Royal Navy cadet. I believe that the cadet force is hugely important to retention and recruitment. The trouble is getting people to step forward to help run cadet forces. I wonder whether the Government will consider some form of inducement scheme to encourage veterans—we know that every community has them—to step forward and help organise the cadets.”
“That is not the case, because books are selling more now than ever before. Books are part of the way that we do things as human beings, whatever language and whatever form they are in. Like others, I see libraries as crucial to the happiness of society. Finally, rather than posing another pub quiz question to the Minister, I will say that I very much look forward to hearing his response to the debate; I am sure that it will contain a lot about best practice and proposals. Would he be kind enough to share his thoughts with the Scottish Government at an appropriate point? I am sad that there are no representatives of the Scottish Government here, but we see a worrying number of closures north of the border. I completely understand that this is a devolved matter, but I am duty bound to take up my constituents’ concerns.”
“In 1909, one of my predecessors as the MP for the north of Scotland, Sir Arthur Bignold, presented a stuffed crocodile to Wick’s Carnegie library, and it is still there. I have no intention of following in Sir Arthur Bignold’s footsteps; I do not have any stuffed crocodiles handy at the moment. I will cite a couple of facts. A recent survey showed that 16% of the Scottish population visit a library once a week, and slightly over a third visit a library once every month. I will not try to elaborate on the excellent points that have already been made about how important libraries are to civil society. As others have said, old people use them. I remember the demise of bookshops being predicted some years ago; some people thought that the internet would get rid of them.”
“So, we can say that in the world there are two Carnegie Halls. The great-grandson of Andrew Carnegie, Mr William Thomson, tried in recent times to get Dolly Parton to come and sing in Sutherland’s Carnegie Hall, but sadly she demurred. Like the hon. Member for Stirling and Strathallan, when I was a boy I visited the Carnegie library in my home town of Tain. I did rather worse than running up a fine; I actually lost a book. It was Enid Blyton’s “Five Get Into A Fix” and losing it put me in a hell of a fix. I avoided going to the library for the next two years because I was petrified of the librarian, Mr Sellar. It was only later, when I was at secondary school, that I took up the habit of using a lending library. Today I am still a member of my lending library in Tain and use it regularly.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Dowd. I have a pub quiz question for the Minister: which historic figure has the greatest number of busts in the United States? People might say George Washington or Abraham Lincoln, but the truth is that it is Robbie Burns. That is because, as the hon. Member for Stirling and Strathallan (Chris Kane) referred to, Andrew Carnegie paid for a huge number of libraries in the States and one of the conditions was that each library had to have a bust of Scotland’s national bard. Another interesting fact—I am obviously on form today—is that Andrew Carnegie also built many libraries across Scotland and all over the UK, and indeed all over the world. He put one in particular in the village near his castle of Skibo in Sutherland—in the village hall, the building of which he also paid for.”
“The hon. Gentleman is making a valid point about mental health. Does he agree that for many people in their old age, visiting a library is one way of combating loneliness, which is one of the tragedies for them?”
“I think the reason so many people signed the petition is that the plight of some of the poorest and most vulnerable in our society is on our collective conscience. I may have a helpful suggestion. I should declare an interest right away: my wife is disabled and I am her carer. I know of people who are carers and live in terror of an unexpected cost coming their way, such as the boiler breaking down in the north of Scotland or some horrifying bill throwing the finances out completely. I wonder whether it would be a kindly and humane step for the Government, or any Government, to provide for a mechanism whereby, when a nasty, surprise bill comes the way of a person caring for someone who is long-term sick or disabled, that bill could be offset against the tax payable by that person, or the married couple together.”
“The reason I was here on that Saturday when Parliament was recalled is because some of the mightiest structures in the North sea were made from British steel at the Nigg yard. On the question of renewables, may I ask the Secretary of State what we are doing about getting out the skills to fabricate floating offshore wind structures in the United Kingdom?”
“I called him Gug because I could not pronounce Gus—mostly because, my mum said, I had a cold most of the time, as it was a very cold place. Believe it or not, Gus—this vast dog—used to let me share his dog biscuits. I can remember quite enjoying dog biscuits—I had better not go further lest my late mother be accused of bad parenting or rural deprivation. I was delighted to join this debate to remember an old friend who was part of my earliest years and is still remembered by me as a sweet and lovely dog.”
“That is why my party is calling for significant and sustained funding for research into alternative methods that are both more humane and scientifically advanced. We have heard some interesting ideas on how that can be taken forward, and I thank Members from across the House for their thoughtful and constructive contributions. I want to close by referring to an old friend of mine. I was a scrawny wee boy. I was an only kid until I was 10, living on a small dairy farm in the north of Scotland, and my best friend was Gus, an African lion hound. That sounds like a very grand name, and Gus was an enormous dog. I was just a lonely wee boy on a farm and Gus was my best chum. We did everything together, Gus and me.”
“Most recently, at my party’s conference this year, we reaffirmed our commitment by passing a substantial new policy motion calling on the Government to introduce a comprehensive animal health and welfare Bill as part of a proper national strategy to secure Britain’s place as a world leader in animal welfare. This is not just about policy, though. It is essential that we recognise in British law that animals are sentient beings. That is not just a symbolic gesture; it places a binding duty on Governments now and in the future to uphold our country’s high welfare standards. Let us be clear: testing on dogs must be minimised wherever possible, rigorously justified, tightly regulated and, above all, actively reduced day by day, week by week and month by month.”
“Throughout our history, we have championed the rights and wellbeing of animals, and this debate is a contribution to that commitment. As he pointed out, let us not forget that, during the coalition Government we introduced a ban on animal testing of household products—a significant step that reflected the public’s desire for greater compassion in our laws. In passing, I must say that we were strongly opposed to the unnecessary deaths of animals caused by what they call “duplicated testing” following this country’s departure from the European Union. That was a tragic consequence that could and should have been avoided.”
“Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Irene Campbell) on her really thoughtful and compassionate leading of this debate. I also congratulate all the other Members who contributed so wisely, constructively and with such care and conviction. And I pay tribute to the petitioners who have brought this vital issue to Parliament’s attention. It is clear that there is consensus across the House. The use of dogs in scientific testing raises profound ethical, scientific and societal questions, and public concern about the welfare of animals used in experiments is growing, and rightly so. As my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Dr Chambers) referred to, those in our party are proud and staunch supporters of high animal welfare standards.”
“It is a real pleasure to serve under your authority, Ms Jardine. For the avoidance of doubt, I would like to make it clear that, although I am the Chair of the Petitions Committee, I speak in this debate on behalf of my party, and it is a winding-up role. It has been a very thoughtful and impassioned debate. If you ever wonder, “Do dogs have feelings? Do they have memories? Are they sentient beings?”, you only have to go to Edinburgh to find out—you know what I am talking about, Ms Jardine. If you go to the corner of Candlemaker Row and George IV Bridge, there is a statue of Greyfriars Bobby, who was either a Skye Terrier or a Dandie Dinmont; I am not quite sure which. For 14 whole years, wee Bobby the dog sat by his master’s grave, because Bobby was mourning. Dogs do have feelings. I too congratulate the hon.”
“The hon. Member is making a very good speech, and I congratulate her on it. She talked about fabrication skills. We have those skills in my constituency, but they are ageing. There will come a time when these people retire, and then those skills could be lost.”
“Every single job in oil and gas is crucial to remote highland communities. It is the people coming back from working three on, three off, or whatever, who keep the lights on in the straths and glens of some of the remotest parts of the highlands.”
“Yes, we are putting them together and putting them into the North sea—the Beatrice field off my constituency is an example—but there is much more to do. In the minute and a half that I have left, let me echo the hon. Member for Aberdeen North in saying that the world has changed since Putin and Trump. Oil is a strategic asset. We are lucky enough to have it. We should not talk it down all the time. We should look on the new discoveries as cash in the bank for the future. Oil is not just about burning hydrocarbons, but about pharmaceuticals and many other uses. We should always remember how fortunate we are that the good Lord gave us this strategic asset. I will conclude where I began. So many of my class went away. In more recent decades it has been different: people have stayed.”
“Safeguarding the industry is hugely important to me, which is why I made the journey there and back to vote in support. However, as the hon. Member for Brent West pointed out, far too many wind turbines are made of steel that is not made in this country. Far too many parts of those turbines are not made in this country either. Our great, shining hope is that one day we will be using the skills to which I referred to train young people to start building turbines, cells and blades here in the UK. We are not doing nearly enough as we should, yet at Nigg we have one the finest graving docks in Europe. It is a perfect site. Kishorn has been revived, yet we are still not making the bits and pieces that we should.”
“Since then, as others have alluded to, the situation has changed. Today, like the hon. Member for Aberdeen North, I have many constituents who work offshore. However, the same opportunity or perhaps necessity is there for those who are considering moving abroad. It is the same story. Very often they move south because it is easier to get to wherever they want to work, which could be in Kuwait or wherever. We face that old dread demon of highland depopulation—people leaving again. We have an ageing population, and we do not have as many younger carers as we would like. Families are beginning to go, and that is part of the tragedy. The reason I came down on the Saturday when Parliament was recalled is that British steel means everything in constructing oil platforms, and possibly floating offshore wind structures.”
“My father said to me, “When you leave school, you’ll find your best employment chances down south, not up here in the highlands.” Then North sea oil came and everything changed massively. The Nigg oil fabrication yard was constructed near my hometown of Tain. There was one at Kishorn in Wester Ross, there was one at Ardersier near Inverness, and there were many other sites in Scotland and England. It meant that local people could find high-quality employment; they had not had that opportunity before. There were highly paid and skilled jobs. People learned skills such as rigging and welding, as the hon. Member for Aberdeen North referred to. I worked at the yard at Nigg. At the height of it all, no less than 5,000 people worked there, constructing the mighty Conoco Hutton production platform. Those were the great old days.”
“What a pleasure it is to see a fellow St Andrean in your august position, Sir Desmond. I am sure that the hon. Member for Brent West (Barry Gardiner) agrees. I congratulate the hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Kirsty Blackman) on her comprehensive speech. It is greatly encouraging that one of our colleagues understands the situation as thoroughly as she clearly does—well done her. I want to look at the historical perspective. I am of such great age that I can remember the time before North sea oil. Far too many in my class at Tain academy went south when they left school. They disappeared: they were part of the highland clearances, if you like, in latter years.”
“My hon. Friend talks, quite correctly, about a beautiful part of England. I, too, represent a very beautiful part of the world. Here is an unbelievable fact for him—I have written it on my hand: in 2023, there were no fewer than 1,439 sewage spills in the highlands. What a disgrace that none of the Scottish nationalists, the governing party of Scotland, are here today.”
“I suggest to the Secretary of State that the problem may be more deep-seated than we realise. He mentioned algal blooms in the Lake district. Not only do those blooms turn the water a strange colour; they suck the oxygen out of the water, leading to the death of wildlife in the water. Furthermore, sewage contains heavy metals and other toxic substances that can kill fish or affect their ability to reproduce, so we may find ecosystems that have been damaged over a much longer term than we realise.”
“The hon. Member is making a very good speech. With her permission, I might just broaden the concept of a political donation, because, in many ways, it is not always quite as simple as a cheque hitting a given political party’s bank account. Whatever one thought of him—he was a great man in Scottish politics, and is no longer with us—it is a fact that Alex Salmond, for a number of years, hosted a show in his own name on RT, a Russian television channel, on which he, on a regular basis, put forward views that were not always particularly helpful to the concept of a United Kingdom. That seems to me to be a subtle way of foreign Governments influencing decisions and trying to interfere.”
“The very fact that the Committee, which I have the honour of chairing, gets the honour of a Government reply each time we have a petitions debate strikes me as a very good thing indeed. I will leave my comments there. As I said in my intervention, there are more subtle ways of influencing politics in any country than a cheque or cash in the bank. We need to be constantly vigilant.”
“Thank you, Mrs Harris. I do not want to add much to what I said in my intervention. This is a very dangerous principle. I have people saying to me in the street, “It’s getting like America—you can buy political results, politicians and policies.” This strikes me as fundamentally dangerous. We call ourselves the mother of Parliaments, and we pride ourselves on the way we do democracy in this country. Every time such things are said to me, I feel that another little brick has been taken out of the edifice of what we do. As the Chair of the Petitions Committee, I thank the petitioners for bringing forward the petition, which expresses what an awful lot of people out there think.”