Jamie Stone
MP for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross · Liberal Democrat · United Kingdom
“While I am very fond of the hon. Member for Moray West, Nairn and Strathspey (Graham Leadbitter), the House will not be surprised to hear that I do not hang on his every word.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dr Murrison. I congratulate the hon. Member for Lichfield (Dave Robertson), my good friend and colleague on the Petitions Committee, on his excellent introduction to this debate.”
“It is not really pertinent to the Minister, but those fledgling and now grown-up companies would not have come into being had it not been for a key decision taken by Harold Wilson’s Labour Government in the 1960s, which was to put in place the Highlands and Islands Development Board.”
“My point is that these companies actually teach vital local skills that would not otherwise be taught, create jobs in some of the remotest areas of the United Kingdom and provide a tourist product, which is absolutely crucial when it comes to visitors. When people, including right hon. and hon.”
“Just to be absolutely tidy, could I make a plea on behalf of those families where the member is deceased but the estate still has a claim? There is sometimes, possibly wrongly, an impression that these people are put to the back of the queue. Could I have an assurance that that would not be the case?”
“I want to raise the case of Hughie Stirling from Ullapool. He was on board a flotilla proceeding to Gaza with aid when the Israelis intercepted them in international waters and took them into custody. His partner tells me that he and others were shockingly mistreated—we are talking about physical abuse and even being beaten up.”
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“Mr Mundell, you and I both know that the European structural funds were fundamental to some of the remotest parts of the UK for investment in harbours, roads and other infrastructure. May I just say to the hon. Member that that was a benefit that we enjoyed when we were part of the EU and, whatever happens in the future, we hope that this Government or future Governments will seek to replicate and replace it?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. Clearly we have a particularly good relationship with the countries that make up the joint expeditionary force. The Minister and I have completed the armed forces parliamentary scheme and were both plunged into the snowdrifts in Norway at Bardufoss. Some of the kit that the Norwegians had was particularly impressive, as I am sure the Minister would agree. Could I press him on what work we can do with the countries in the joint expeditionary force on procurement, design and perhaps development of equipment?”
“In getting ahead with what we are doing now, we will be in the nick of time to train up new generations based on past generations’ knowledge and ability. I welcome that. This has been a well-tempered debate—apart from the conspicuous absence of some hon. Members—which sends a good message to everybody who cares about our shipbuilding industry. Everyone is singing from the same hymn sheet, which is to be welcomed because, as others hon. Members said, it was shipbuilding that made this country great. We have the skills and the people, and we can do it again, but this time with offshore and other similar structures. If a Government Member would like to visit my constituency to see what we are going to do, they would be more than welcome—to say the least. I may be in a different party, but I extend the hand of friendship.”
“For that reason, I am grateful to the Government for the announcement in the last few days that £55 million will be given to the port of Cromarty firth to develop an alongside fabrication facility to create and put together those modular structures that can then be taken out. I thank the Government for that very welcome decision. From that investment, we can do great things in future, but I also suggest that time is of the essence. The skills mentioned by the hon. Member for Glasgow West (Patricia Ferguson) are ageing. If they are lost, they could be gone forever, because they are clever skills such as butt welding and all the different sorts of fabrication in steel, aluminium or concrete.”
“It was a shot in the arm to see, in my home town of Tain, people coming in from south-west Scotland and other parts. What that meant in terms of amateur operatic societies, and just doing things in the community, was a great change—very much for the good. I remember those days with great happiness: I married and I brought up my children because of the employment in those yards. That was why I did not move away and why I disobeyed my father’s instructions. More recently, as has been mentioned, we have seen the potential of floating offshore structures. As I have said, the Nigg yard where I worked was placed where it was because it was in one of the finest deep-water ports in the United Kingdom, where big structures could be built and moved relatively easily out to the North sea.”
“Those skills moved north to build the mighty structures that we have today in the North sea. I worked in the Kishorn yard on the Ninian Central Platform, which in its day was the biggest concrete structure ever built, and in the Nigg yard for a number of years. At the height of North sea construction and fabrication, no less than 5,000 people worked in the Nigg yard. Hon. Members can imagine what a difference that made to the local economy of that remote part of the highlands—depopulation disappeared just like that. People moved in. We made jokes about them—no offence to hon. Members from the west of Scotland—and called them Hey Jimmys, because they all came in saying, “Hey Jim!” They got my name right, because I am James, which was rather charming.”
“When I was growing up in the highlands, there was a dismal litany of depopulation. When I was at Tain Royal academy, the brightest and best—and many others— went south. Indeed, my father said to me, “Go south, young lad, to work and to prosper.” But then the oil came. I give credit to the then Labour Government for seeing the potential of North sea oil and for lifting the ball and running with it, because those crucial decisions in the early 1970s created the industry that we have today. Because of where the potential yards were situated, and the need to get them to the North sea, it made sense to build them in the Outer Hebrides, Kishorn, Ardersier and Nigg. In the early 1970s, we saw the transfer of the skills that have already been mentioned from the Clyde and other parts of the UK.”
“It is a pleasure to speak in any debate chaired by your good self, Ms Jardine. I, too, note that a certain political party from Scotland is not present today, which is a disgrace. Let us think about what it would be like to be working in Ferguson’s right now. Through no fault of the workforce—there is nothing wrong with their skills—they have been left out, which is pretty bad, and not one of those Members bothers to show up. I would not let them run a birthday party in a brewery, if I can put it that way. Nevertheless, we have had good news about the frigates that are going to be built in Scotland. I suggest that there will probably be a greater necessity to build more of them, and I imagine that that work could come to Scotland. We have the skills and we should be proud of that.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. On that point, I do not know how well I can put this. In building offshore structures, different bits can be built in different places, but they would come to Invergordon to be amalgamated, hence the £55 million Government investment. Could the same principle apply of looking at the rules, to ensure that the different bits are built in Methil or Ardersier, rather than being built abroad? Because that is our fear, that they may be made far away in somewhere such as Poland or Korea.”
“In conversation this morning with Trudy Morris, the CEO of the Caithness chamber of commerce, she outlined the sheer importance of tourism businesses to the local economy and the farmers in Scotland. The concern expressed to me is on the rate of VAT on tourism and similar businesses, and although we do not know whether the Highland council will impose a tourism levy, that could be a double whammy. I do not expect for one instant hon. Members on the Front Bench to say, “Jamie, you can have a cut in the rate of VAT”—well, I dream sometimes—but I would be grateful for a meeting to discuss the nature of the problem and how we could possibly tackle it.”
“During Business and Trade questions earlier, we heard mention of the fantastic value of the export of our food and drink to the United States, which was a sound point. The food and drink industry supports tourism all over the UK, and the whisky distilleries provide fantastic local employment in some of the remotest parts of Scotland. Mr Speaker, next time you travel on London North Eastern Railway, the biscuits you eat will have been made by Mr Gary Reid of Perthshire. I declare an interest because my brother is a cheesemaker. May we have a debate on the food and drink industry in the UK, which is one of our greatest achievements?”
“I am not sure whether I picked up what the Minister said correctly, but I suggest that we try to collate their memories, perhaps through local government culture departments, and they can be encouraged to write things down or make a recording. It might interesting to publish a book of their reminiscences and memories while they are still here, because from history we learn for the future, and their accounts will be crucial to the generations ahead of us.”
“I am sure that the same word comes to the minds of all of us who have witnessed what has happened in these past months. We pray for peace, but it has to be a peace that works with allies and, above all, it has to be a just peace. The events of 1940 were a very, very close run thing. Had Hitler come across the channel, which he might have done had he not decided to turn east and head towards Russia, we might still be in a German state today—who knows? It was miraculous that we got through and won that war. I close with a final suggestion to Ministers. There are precious few veterans, all over the UK, who still with us today.”
“I associate my party with what is being planned—it is a great idea. I crave the indulgence of the House to mention my parents, both of whom served in the second world war. My father served in the aforementioned Fourteenth Army, led by Bill Slim, and was part of the second wave through Kohima. When I asked him what it was like, all he described to me was the terrible smell of corpses—that is what stayed with him. Completely to my family’s surprise, we discovered that my mother had worked at Bletchley Park. She was shocked and horrified when that came out, and she spluttered, “But I signed the Official Secrets Act.” My mother could never do a crossword, so we do not know how earth she got there. [ Laughter. ] When we think about the period before the second world war, the word “appeasement” comes to mind.”
“Much has been said about the taxation, and I will not repeat it, but I will remark on one thing that has been said, which is that land prices in the Six Counties of Northern Ireland are much higher than in other parts of the United Kingdom, so the effect of the taxation will be rather larger there. To compound this, cuts to DEFRA’s day-to-day spending mean that many family farms and rural businesses will struggle. That is why my party is saying that we should raise the farming budget by £1 billion. If we can do that, perhaps we can help. We want to see a renegotiation of trade agreements to protect British farmers and a strengthening of the Groceries Code Adjudicator.”
“I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) on opening the debate and on the thoughtful and knowledgeable speech he made. I also compliment Members on both sides of the Chamber for what they have said. I was brought up on a farm. I was the wee boy who shooed the cows home to the faraway field. I represent the biggest constituency in the UK. I have an awful lot of farms and crofts in my constituency. Farming is part of our way of life. It is about the food we eat. It is about the fight against climate change. It is about our heritage and, in constituencies such as mine, it is about the tourism economy. The change of Government has been difficult before. Brexit did not help—we all know that argument—and botched trade deals have not helped either.”
“My hon. Friend brings knowledge from the past, which is very valuable to the debate. My right hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland is also a champion of this cause, and what he says strikes a chord among farmers in my constituency. Getting a fair deal is fundamental to making farms viable for the long term. It is not that we want to do everything, but I hope that the Government will engage constructively with my right hon. Friend on this. It is too important to let this one go, and it could be an easy win for the Government and for all of us.”
“That needs to be looked at very carefully indeed. The second thing I am duty-bound to mention is the low price of malting barley. This is the highest-quality barley and is used to make whisky. It is low priced because not so much is being bought by the whisky distillers, a reflection of the fact that they are not selling so many bottles of whisky.”
“I thank the hon. Gentleman for his contribution, and what a pity it is that our SNP colleagues are not with us at this point, because we both might have something to say about that. There has been a lack of knowledge north of the border—or a lack of understanding, I believe—of things that are fundamental to the way of life in the constituencies we represent at the different ends of Scotland. Time is short, but I want to conclude by mentioning three things that are causing my constituents some anxiety. In particular, I spoke with farmers this week and there has been recent publicity about what is known as lab-grown meat, produced from cells in a laboratory environment. It is thought that this could be upon us within two years. Yes, it is a way of producing food, but what does that mean for our livestock farmers?”
“That should be a worry not just for way farms are run presently but for finding new entrants into farming. I again commend my right hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland for his speech and for bringing this debate before us. Farming is absolutely fundamental to the country and the way we feed ourselves, and in a world that, as we have seen, is quite dangerous to say the least, the more we feed ourselves and the less we rely on imports, the better.”
“It meant we could get our seed potatoes into Northern Ireland, but I know from talking to seed potato farmers that there are markets in Europe crying out to get hold of high-quality Scottish seed potatoes. They are the best, because they are some of the safest from virus, eelworm or whatever. I will be extremely grateful to the Government if they use every measure at their disposal to try to improve sales. Finally, I want to make rather a strange point. A number of farmers have told me that people who have worked on the farm, sometimes for decades, are now moving on to other jobs. People who drove tractors or used implements to cultivate fields are sometimes taking the option of going off to drive a digger for a builder, and a labour shortage is beginning to occur on some of our farms.”
“My right hon. Friend is indeed doing his bit and never ceases to do so, but this again goes back to an earlier point: that farming is intermingled throughout the entire economy. If we can have measures from the Government to increase whisky sales and to encourage exports, such as getting good-quality Scotch whisky into the Indian market, that will in the long term benefit the growers of malting barley, which will make farms more viable again. I am sorry that the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire North and Moray East (Seamus Logan) is not with us, because, in all fairness, he did make that point. The hon. Gentleman also made a point about seed potatoes. I welcomed the Windsor framework at the time and was thanked by the then Prime Minister for doing so.”
“My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. One of the big problems that we have in my very remote constituency is the cost of delivery charges and surcharges. They are a lot higher than one would pay in cities such as Glasgow or Edinburgh. It is the same for the highlands of Scotland as it is for the rural parts of England. Does my hon. Friend agree that it would be good if the Government could look at this and try and take it down to a level playing field, so that people are not disadvantaged because of where they live?”
“Mr Speaker, you will have seen the film “Skyfall”, in which James Bond and M travel up the A9. But the A9 is a killer road, and we have had a litany of broken promises from the SNP Government. That is hardly conducive to economic growth in Scotland.”
“My daughter lives in Donegal. When her two little boys were born, she had the choice of them being born in Derry or Sligo—on either side of the border. The Republic of Ireland has introduced an initiative called shared island. That is not a united Ireland, but it works in improving services. Will the Government look at its success, and consider how Scotland might work in a similar way to Northern Ireland, for the benefit of services?”
“I thank the hon. Member for giving way; he is making an excellent contribution. The radio frequency network that, as the Minister is aware, controls what many people in remote areas pay for heating will be switched off in June. At present, the replacement infrastructure is not there, so many people could inadvertently end up paying through the nose. I find that very worrying, so will the hon. Member, and perhaps later the Minister, tell us whether they agree that the data communication company needs to speed up its roll-out of cellular coverage as quickly as possible? We are only four months away from June, and it is a deeply worrying situation for pensioners in my constituency and many other remote areas.”
“To return to my earlier intervention about the switch-off of the radio signal, on infrastructure, does the Minister agree that the data communication company must be exhorted and encouraged in every possible way to get on with the roll-out? Otherwise, people who are very vulnerable will pay more for their electricity.”
“Bought by my great-great grandfather, Donald Fraser, it was in the family from the early-to-mid-19th century—a long, long time—but due to financial circumstances, my father had to sell almost all of it. Today, my brother and I own the princely sum of two fields. Here is the point: not a day goes by that I do not look toward the fields we used to own, on the shores of the Dornoch firth, and wish that we still owned them. The farm is in my blood. It is not like selling stocks and shares, or selling a holiday home in Spain; it is in the blood, it is in the family. Unless I were to win the lottery, I will never be able to buy back those fields. I am not likely to win the lottery and even then, land goes up in value. It is emotional, and that attachment makes it very different from other things one might own.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. As Chair of the Petitions Committee, I am delighted to see such fantastic attendance at this debate. I have two simple things to say. A week ago yesterday, I attended the farmers’ rally in John O’ Groats, at the other end of the United Kingdom. I was the only politician there. It was a cold, blowy day and the farmers and their tractors were out in force. I spoke to many of them and heard their concern. Even that far away from Westminster, it was exactly the same as we are hearing expressed in this debate: their fear of losing the farm. That takes me to my second simple point. I was brought up on a dairy farm.”
“I beg to move, That this House has considered the closure of high street services in rural areas. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Furniss. I am extremely grateful to have been granted the time to shed light on the impact that the closure of high street services continues to have on our rural communities. In recent years, exacerbated by the covid-19 pandemic, more and more shops on our high streets have closed their doors, leading to less vibrant town centres, reduced footfall to other businesses, job losses and, sadly, a diminished sense of community.”
“In my home in the highlands, those trends are compounded by rural isolation and limited access to alternative services. The closure of shops, banks, post offices and other essential services has left many residents in town centres feeling abandoned.”
“We have higher living costs, limited transport options and poor broadband connectivity. Rural areas such as mine have to contend with significant disadvantages compared with urban centres. We are all here today to talk about not just the loss of shops, banks and post offices, but the erosion of a way of life and a sense of connection, and a loss of public services and access to essential services that rural communities rely on. Over recent years, our rural communities have faced unprecedented challenges. Once bustling with activity, like my hometown, they are now marked by shuttered windows and “for sale” signs. The causes are many. We know that they include the rise of online shopping, changing consumer habits, economic pressures and, of course, the rise of large out-of-town centre supermarkets.”
“I agree with my hon. Friend, and I will touch on that matter later in my contribution. I want to go back to when I was a boy—some time ago, I might say. My hometown of Tain in the highlands was a vibrant and bustling place. It was a short walk up Shore Road from where I lived, where my father had a small farm, to the high street, where we got everything we needed, from lavatory paper in piles and pyramids in Ross the chemists, via Lesley the grocer, where we could buy broken biscuits in brown paper bags, to Hamilton Cormack, the local solicitor, who played the piano beautifully but, happily, never seemed to send out a bill. We had everything. Tain was a totally self-contained, prosperous community—but, oh my goodness, how very different today. My constituency in the far north has long faced unique challenges.”
“My hon. Friend is right on the money, and I will return to that point shortly. Local businesses that once thrived now struggle to compete with online giants offering convenience and lower prices. This shift has not only impacted our economy but deprived our communities of vital gathering spaces—places where people can get together, where relationships are built and strengthened, and where we can have a good natter on the street corner.”
“But there have been some reassuring solutions to the issue of banks closing, which takes me back to those welcome words “banking hubs”. Run by the Post Office and Cash Access UK, the shared spaces have done amazing work in providing banking services in collaboration with an array of different banks.”
“We know there has been a shift towards digital banking in recent times, but for many in our rural communities, including the elderly, there is not good internet access for a start, and they cannot really use those services, let alone use them to their maximum power. I know of many old people who are totally bamboozled by them. I am not alone in these concerns. Lloyds Banking Group has recently announced the closure of 136 branches across the UK—that stopped even me in my tracks. The closures include several Bank of Scotland branches. I think that banks have a duty of public service to support local people with their financial needs, but that is a function that I fear many banks seem to have forgotten; I know not why.”
“I love the words “banking” and “hub”. I also know from my past experience what a lovely town Monmouth is; I had some much-loved cousins who lived just outside the town, and I knew it well some time ago. Coming on specifically to the closure of banks, face-to-face banking is an essential part of the community, from preventing fraud and helping people who think they have been scammed to conversations about complex financial issues, which we cannot simply pick up from a letter or online. Those are fundamental functions of banks—not privileges that should be reserved for those who live in more urban areas.”
“Indeed. The hon. Member makes a sound point. My wife hails from Northern Ireland, and I know that the problems there are very similar to those in Monmouth, the highlands of Scotland or wherever. Recently, my splendid team and I had the pleasure of visiting the Acton banking hub. We were mightily impressed by its operation and commitment to making cash accessible to the community. The good news, turning to the point made by the hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell), is that we are going to get a banking hub opened in Wick in my constituency this summer. That will be most welcome. The organisation in charge met the local people last week and the reception was very warm indeed. There is a sense of relief that banking hubs are at long last being rolled out, but the point about the speed of rolling them out is well made.”
“When these services disappear, so the jobs go. The threat of having to move south when the tourists leave at the end of the tourist season affects the highlands. I know of people who had a summer job; when the tourists go, away they go too, and they may not come back again. That casts that dark old shadow of highland and island depopulation, which the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Torcuil Crichton) will know well. It haunts all of us in the more remote areas of Scotland.”
“As I say, access to cash is not the paramount function of banking services; cash access is just the tip of the iceberg in solving the problem of closed branches. It is the other functions I mention, such as face-to-face services, that provide the local community with an invaluable service. The economic impact of these closures cannot be overstated. High streets are more than just retail hubs; they are engines of the local economy. Returning to my constituency, in the two large towns of Wick and Thurso, which are the largest population centres, high street businesses provide jobs. My two daughters have worked in shops in my hometown of Tain—one in a chemist, the other in a fruit and vegetable shop. The high street attracts visitors who contribute to the local economy—one thinks of Monmouth in that respect.”
“That point is exceptionally well made. From little acorns, mighty oaks grow, and in the old days a good bank manager would specialise in spotting a potential business that was going to grow, which in turn benefited the bank. We all know of examples over the last 30 or 40 years where that happened. Banking hubs are not a universal solution, however. In my constituency, the last bank branch in the county of Sutherland, Bank of Scotland in Golspie, is about to close. When it was looked at for a banking hub, it was deemed too small. There is not going to be a banking hub because it did not fit the stats. That means that the whole county of Sutherland—a vast county in the UK—will not have one single bank branch.”
“Money spent in the local economy stays in that local economy. A recent Visa study says that for every £10 spent at independently owned local businesses in the UK, around d £3.80 is retained within the local area. That means local banks, local solicitors and other people supplying that business.”
“That is a wise point, and I have no reason to doubt that there will be sympathetic ears on the Government Benches—at least, I very much hope so; I do not see why there would not be. The closures I talk about and the jobs going discourage investment in our towns and regions. Why would a new business choose to set up shop in a town where the high street no longer has high levels of footfall? Why would they open a shop in that street if nobody is going to be there? Those ripple effects extend beyond immediate job losses; they discourage investment in the future. With fewer businesses operating locally, supply chains are disrupted. This affects farmers, tradesmen and other small businesses who might well rely on high street outlets to sell their goods, and creates a vicious circle that is very hard to break.”
“Here in Westminster, we are calling for economic investment in our communities to boost growth. I am very grateful to the previous Government for helping to establish the Inverness and Cromarty Firth green freeport, but if we do not have the local infrastructure to support it —the banks and shops—it will be much harder. Without our high street, without our banks, post offices, hairdressers and chemists, it is harder to support the local population.”
“That value is felt by those who work for the local businesses and, as a result of feeling appreciated, they feel a sense of higher job satisfaction. Those two phenomena cannot be separated. In Scotland, 87% of independent retailers take part in some form of community engagement, so we cannot underestimate how important sustaining businesses is to all aspects of community life— [ Interruption. ] I am aware of the time, and I shall finish my speech very shortly. For example, the Tain Gala is wonderful thing that is much loved by the community, but 20 years ago the businesses would each chip in. As there are fewer businesses on the high street, it is much harder to run the Tain Gala. I am sure the same is true of Stornoway and other towns across the length and breadth of the UK.”
“I absolutely agree with that point. In my area of the highlands, employees sometimes have to travel long distances with a large amount of money to deposit it, and I wonder about their safety. For somebody of evil intent, it would be quite easy to target them as they make the bus journey or whatever. The Visa survey revealed that four in 10 people agree that small businesses local to them make the area a nicer place to live in, and 40% of local business owners said that customer interaction has a positive impact on their overall job satisfaction. My two daughters loved working in the chemist and the fruit and vegetable shop, because it meant happy chat when they saw their friends. There is a deep-rooted appreciation in our communities for such businesses, which greatly contribute to the value of the local area.”
“For example, establishing a commercial landowner levy and taxing only the land value of commercial sites, not productive investment, would remove physical capital from taxation. That would, in turn, boost business investment, increase productivity and—of attraction to us all—boost wages. By championing community action, essential services such as post offices or supermarkets could be preserved through encouraging community ownership models. By pooling resources and sharing risks, residents can feel more supported and in control of what is happening in their local area—something they do not feel at the moment.”
“I thank the hon. Gentleman. Although the challenges are significant, they are not insurmountable. We must be positive about this. To address the problem, we must adopt a multifaceted approach, which hon. Members are hinting at, involving Government intervention, community action and ownership, and private sector collaboration. We need innovation; we cannot just say, “Oh well. We’ll carry on doing things in the way they have been done in the past.” We cannot; we have to do things differently in the future. The Government must support local councils and prioritise investment in high streets through grants or subsidies for small businesses. An overhaul of the business rate system or rent caps could make it more feasible for entrepreneurs to operate in rural areas.”
“To conclude, if the private sector collaborated with the Government, and looked at ways to support the high street, real and proper progress could be made in keeping physical stores, bank branches and vital town centre businesses thriving and open in our rural communities. That is a great prize that would mean an enormous amount to our electorates in whatever part of the United Kingdom.”
“That is a wise point, and in calling me “gallant”, my hon. Friend refers to my service in the Territorial Army, but that is a different matter from the one before us today. At the heart of the debate, surely, has been the need for private sector businesses to take responsibility for the public duty that historically these corporations held. There could be an awful lot more done on that front. Let us see what we can encourage them to do. Simply upping and leaving rural communities because they place more value on footfall found in urban centres is not acceptable. We have to say that the smaller communities are worth it, and encourage these businesses to be there just as much as they might head off to Glasgow, Edinburgh or Aberdeen in my own case, which is not satisfactory.”