Sir Roger Gale
MP for Herne Bay and Sandwich · Conservative · United Kingdom
“In welcoming the Prime Minister to his place, let me say that I noticed his criticism of the water companies—a justified criticism, in many cases. May I direct his attention to the predatory activities of another private company?”
“The Secretary of State appears to think it is scaremongering to suggest that, with effect from this weekend, passenger and freight traffic using the channel tunnel and the port of Dover will be disrupted as a result of the European entry and exit system.”
“Before I call Esther McVey to move the motion, and then the Minister to respond, I remind Members that they may make a speech only with the prior permission of the Member in charge of the debate. No such notice has been given.”
“As the Minister has indicated, over the spring bank holiday there was chaos at Dover, at St Pancras and at the channel tunnel because of the failure of the EES. The French authorities were quite simply not prepared or able to implement the facilities properly.”
“This House has the capacity to criticise, but it also has the capacity to be fair. The Minister probably finds himself between a rock and a cliff face in a situation that he did not make himself. That does not absolve the MCA from the criticism that has rightly been levelled at it earlier today.”
“To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, what measures the Government have put in place to ensure that in the coming holiday season, travellers and business freight are not delayed at our ports, our international railway stations and our airports as a result of the imposition of the European entry and exit system.”
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“Order. I understand that the hon. Lady wishes to raise a point of order arising directly from matters that have been raised at business questions. For that reason and that reason alone, I am prepared to take it now in order to ensure that the Leader of the House is here.”
“As the hon. Lady has indicated, although that is a point of order, it is not strictly one for the Chair. Given that the Leader of the House wishes to respond, I am quite prepared to permit that as well.”
“Again, that is not strictly a matter of order for the Chair, but it is now a matter of record, and I thank the right hon. Gentleman. I also thank the Leader of the House and the Opposition Front Benchers for their attendance.”
“We now move on to the Select Committee statement on behalf of the Procedure Committee. Dame Karen Bradley will speak for up to 10 minutes, during which no interventions may be taken. At the conclusion of the statement, I will call Members to ask questions on the subject of the statement. These should be brief questions, not speeches. I also emphasise that questions should be directed to the Select Committee Chair, not to the relevant Minister. Front Benchers therefore may take part in questioning.”
“I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for the point of order and for giving notice of it, but he has heard the statement and the exchanges on the Select Committee report, including the responses by the right hon. Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Dame Karen Bradley), and I am afraid that there is nothing I can add to them from the Chair. I thank the right hon. Lady for her statement and for answering seven questions.”
“Mr O’Hara, that is not a point of order for the Chair; it is an endeavour to extend the questions on the statement. If the Minister wishes to respond, I will allow him to do so.”
“On Members’ behalf, I thank the Minister of State and those on the Opposition Front Bench for remaining for well over an hour and taking the relevant questions.”
“I thank both hon. Gentlemen for their points of order, and I thank the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) for giving notice of his. While the House Administration does take the lead—”
“Order. I am on my feet. While the House Administration does take the lead in the appointment process, it is not a matter for the Chair of the House. The hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent has put his point on the record, and I am sure that the House authorities will be able to advise him on how to pursue the matter further.”
“I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is outrageously out of order— [ Laughter. ] But I am equally sure that the whole House will want to associate themselves with his remarks about his mum and dad. I add my personal congratulations as well.”
“I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving at least some notice of his point of order, although I have to say that he has gone rather wider than the information with which I was originally provided. I hope that he informed the Minister that he intended to refer to him in the House.”
“Thank you. That is not actually a matter for the Chair, but the right hon. Member has put his case on the record. Bill Presented Telecommunications Infrastructure (Requirement to Share Apparatus) Bill Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Emma Hardy presented a Bill to require providers of electronic communications networks to grant access to their apparatus to other such providers in certain circumstances; to prohibit the installation of new electronic communications apparatus where services can be provided by sharing apparatus; and for connected purposes. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time Friday 21 June and to be printed (Bill 196).”
“I remind Members that, in Committee, Members should not address the Chair as “Deputy Speaker”. Please use our names when addressing the Chair. “Chair”, “Madam Chairman”, “Madam Chair” and “Mr Chairman” are also acceptable. Clause 1 Power to regulate pedicabs”
“(2) The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision that is consequential on this section. (3) Regulations under this section must be made by statutory instrument and may not be made until they are approved by both Houses of Parliament. (4) Regulations under this section may amend, repeal or revoke provision made by or under any legislation passed before this Act.” This new clause enables TfL to include DBS checks as a condition of licensing for pedicab drivers or operators in any licensing provision made by Transport for London. It also permits the Secretary of State to make regulations to make any consequential provision .”
“(2) The guidance must include a requirement for enhanced Disclosure and Barring Service checks to be a condition of licensing. (3) The Secretary of State must arrange for any guidance issued under this section, and any revision of it, to be published.” This new clause is linked to NC1. It would require the Secretary of State to issue guidance to TfL as to how its licensing functions under pedicab regulations may be exercised so as to protect children and vulnerable adults from harm, including compulsory DBS checks. New clause 3— Conditions of licensing: Disclosure and Barring Service check — “(1) Any provision related to conditions of licences under section (1)(a) may include a requirement for pedicab drivers or operators to have enhanced Disclosure and Barring Service checks.”
“(2) In section 177, in subsection (6), at end insert— (g) the Pedicabs (London) Act 2024” This new clause includes this Bill in the definition of “taxi and private hire vehicle legislation” for the purposes of section 177 of the Policing and Crime Act 2017. This permits the Secretary of State to issue guidance to public authorities exercising licensing functions so as to protect children and vulnerable adults. New clause 2— Licensing functions under pedicab regulations: protection of children and vulnerable adults— “(1) The Secretary of State must issue guidance to Transport for London under the provisions of section 177 of the Policing and Crime Act 2017 as to how its licensing functions under pedicab regulations may be exercised so as to protect children, and vulnerable individuals who are 18 or over, from harm.”
“Amendment 16, in clause 8, page 5, line 8, at end insert— “‘civil enforcement officer’ has the meaning given by section 76 of the Traffic Management Act 2004;”. This amendment is linked to Amendment 15. Amendment 13, page 5, line 17, at end insert— “‘traffic authority’ has the same meaning as in section 121A(1A) and (2) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984.” This amendment is linked to Amendment 12. Clause 8 stand part. Clause 9 stand part. Clause 10 stand part. Government amendment 20. Clause 11 stand part. New clause 1— Protection of children and vulnerable adults— “(1) The Policing and Crime Act 2017 is amended as follows.”
“Amendment 5, page 5, line 6, leave out “whoever” and insert “the London Pedicab Operators Association, Cycling UK and whoever else”. This amendment would require the Secretary of State to consult the London Pedicab Operators Association and Cycling UK as well as anyone the Secretary of State considers appropriate before issuing guidance. Amendment 7, page 5, line 6, leave out “whoever” and insert “with local authorities, elected representatives, and whoever else”. This amendment would require the Secretary of State to consult with local authorities and elected representatives as well as anyone the Secretary of State considers appropriate before issuing guidance. Clause 7 stand part.”
“Amendment 11, page 4, line 37, at end insert— “(3A) In preparing guidance to be issued under this section, the Secretary of State must have regard to the following objectives— (a) the benefits to the environment, economic vitality and the health and quality of life that properly regulated pedicab services can provide; (b) the safety of pedicab drivers and passengers; (c) the need to minimise danger, disruption and disturbance to the public; (d) the reasonableness of pedicab fares for the passengers, riders and operators of pedicabs; (e) the designation of places where pedicabs may stand for hire; (f) the need for licensing and other charges or requirements imposed on pedicab riders and operators, and the penalties for contraventions of offences created by pedicab regulations, to be reasonable and proportionate to the risks that pedicabs pose to their riders, passengers and the wider public.” This amendment defines the objectives that the Secretary of State must have regard to when drawing up guidance on pedicab regulations, including to take into account the benefits that properly regulated pedicabs can provide.”
“This amendment requires the Secretary of State to issue guidance to Transport for London about the exercise of their functions under pedicab regulations within six months of the passage of this Act. Amendment 10, page 4, line 32, leave out “the exercise of” and insert “making pedicab regulations and exercising”. This amendment clarifies that the Secretary of State’s guidance to TfL encompasses the making of pedicab regulations, as well as the exercise of its functions under those regulations.”
“Clause 3 stand part. Clause 4 stand part. Amendment 18, in clause 5, page 4, line 17, leave out from “means” to the end of line 21 and insert “a pedicab, as defined in section 1(2), which conforms to the Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles Regulations 1983;”. This amendment defines “power-assisted pedicab” as a pedicab which conforms to the Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles Regulations 1983. Clause 5 stand part. Clause 6 stand part. Amendment 3, in clause 7, page 4, line 32, leave out “may” and insert “must”. This amendment would require the Secretary of State to issue guidance to Transport for London about the exercise of their functions under pedicab regulations. Amendment 19, page 4, line 32, leave out “may” and insert “must, within six months of the passage of this Act,”.”
“Amendment 15, page 3, line 22, leave out from “immobilisation” to end of line 24 and insert “and seizure by a constable in uniform or by a civil enforcement officer of any pedicab that— (a) is being used in a manner that is causing alarm or distress to members of the public, or (b) is being driven in a manner that— (i) contravenes section 35 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861, (ii) contravenes sections 29 to 32 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, or (iii) in the case of a mechanically propelled pedicab, would amount to a contravention of sections 29 to 32 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 if committed on a pedal cycle without mechanical propulsion, if the driver has been given warning on a prior occasion by a constable in uniform or a civil enforcement officer that the driver is using or driving the pedicab in a manner described in this paragraph or paragraph (a).” This amendment ensures that the powers to immobilise and seize pedicabs are assigned to police constables in uniform or to traffic officers duly authorised by local authorities, and that they are proportionate to the powers to immobilise and seize motor vehicles in section 59 of the Police Reform Act 2002.”
“Amendment 14, page 3, line 20, at end insert “, provided that equivalent conduct committed by the driver or rider of a motor vehicle is subject to a civil penalty.” This amendment provides that civil penalties relating to pedicab drivers may only be used if equivalent conduct committed by a driver or rider of a motor vehicle would be subject to a civil penalty.”
“Amendment 17, in clause 3, page 3, line 11, at end insert— “(2A) The regulations may only create offences relating to the use of a pedicab for any of the following purposes— (a) carrying passengers for hire or reward; (b) travelling to carry a passenger or passengers for hire or reward; (c) returning from carrying a passenger or passengers for hire or reward; or (d) plying for hire.” This amendment ensures that offences created by pedicab regulations only apply when the pedicab is being used to carry passengers, when travelling to or from carrying passengers, or when plying for hire.”
“This amendment would allow pedicab licence fees to be set at a level that enables investment in pedicab infrastructure in Greater London. Amendment 6, page 2, line 29, at end insert — “(d) designate sites to be used as pedicab ranks.” This amendment would allow Transport for London to use pedicab regulations to designate sites as pedicab ranks. Amendment 12, page 2, line 29, at end insert— “(d) make provision for the designation by traffic authorities of places where pedicabs may stand for hire.” This amendment allows for the regulations to make provision for the designation by traffic authorities of pedicab stands. Clause 2 stand part.”
“This amendment would require Transport for London to consult with local authorities and elected representatives as well as anyone else it considers appropriate before making pedicab regulations. Amendment 4, page 1, line 10, at end insert— “(4) Transport for London shall not make provision for regulating pedicabs in public places in Greater London until the Secretary of State has issued guidance under the provisions of section 7.” This amendment would ensure that no regulation could be introduced by Transport for London until the Secretary of State for Transport had issued guidance to Transport for London about the exercise of their functions under pedicab regulations. Clause stand part. Amendment 8, in clause 2, page 2, line 4, at end insert “or at a level that enables investment in pedicab infrastructure in Greater London”.”
“With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment 1, page 1, line 9, after “must” insert “carry out a public consultation including details of the proposed licensing framework and”. This amendment would require Transport for London to carry out a public consultation before making pedicab regulations and would require that consultation to include details of the proposed licensing framework. Amendment 2, page 1, line 10, leave out “whoever” and insert “the London Pedicab Operators Association, Cycling UK and whoever else”. This amendment would ensure that the London Pedicab Operators Association and Cycling UK would be consulted by Transport for London before TfL makes pedicab regulations. Amendment 21, page 1, line 10, leave out “whoever” and insert “local authorities, elected representatives, and whoever else”.”
“Order. I thank the Leader of the House and the shadow Leader of the House for their presence throughout what has been a very lengthy session.”
“57) Alex Sobel, supported by Caroline Lucas, Ed Davey, Colum Eastwood, Brendan O’Hara, Olivia Blake, Sir Peter Bottomley, Daisy Cooper, Clive Lewis, Stephen Farry, Alison Thewliss and Derek Thomas, presented a Bill to require the United Kingdom to achieve climate and nature targets; to give the Secretary of State a duty to implement a strategy to achieve those targets; to establish a Climate and Nature Assembly to advise the Secretary of State in creating that strategy; to give duties to the Committee on Climate Change and the Joint Nature Conservation Committee regarding the strategy and targets; and for connected purposes. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 17 May, and to be printed (Bill 192).”
“I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving notice of the thrust of his question. First, the Chair has had no notice of an imminent statement. However, the hon. Gentleman will have heard the Leader of the House in answer to, I think, five questions on the subject this morning indicate very clearly that a statement will be made as soon as possible. I am sure the whole House will welcome that reassurance. Bill Presented Climate and Nature Bill Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No.”
“Before we start the debate, I should inform the House that while the Chair has no power to impose a time limit on opening speeches, Mr Speaker has made it plain that he expects those speeches to be kept to a maximum—not a minimum —of 15 minutes. In order to assist the opening speakers, I will now put the clock on at 15 minutes.”
“Order. Although there are not that many hon. Members present in the Chamber, it is immediately clear that there is a considerable amount of defence expertise present. That means we are likely to have a well-informed debate, which is not always the case. That being so, I will impose a 13-minute limit on speeches. That should enable all Members to have their say, and allow time for a full and proper response from the Front Benches. I hope that will satisfy all Members. It will be a formal time limit, which means the usual injury rules will apply. If Members take interventions, time will be added.”
“Order. The Government and Opposition Front Benchers have, perhaps understandably, taken a certain amount of leeway in a broad-brush approach to the debate. Before we proceed, I remind Back Benchers that we are now debating Lords amendments; this is not a Second Reading debate. I call Sir Jeremy Wright.”
“Order. Before the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry) resumes her speech, I remind her that we are beginning to go very wide again. I would be grateful if she could come back directly to the amendments, although I understand the context in which she is trying to make her remarks. While I am on my feet, may I say that, although I appreciate that she is being very careful, we are getting on to fairly thin ice when we start talking about a JCHR report that has not been published yet? We need to be a little careful.”
“Order. I said that we were skating on fairly thin ice because other, equally impressive legal advice suggests that there are three members of the Joint Committee in the Chamber who have come fairly close to quoting reports that have not yet been published. I hope that the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry) will accept the admonition in the terms in which it was offered. I call Dr Caroline Johnson.”
“Order. Before we proceed, I am informed that a Member swore at one of the Doorkeepers this evening, who on my instruction locked the doors. If that person is identified, the consequences will be very severe. We now come to Lords amendment 8. After Clause 5 Removals to Rwanda under the Illegal Migration Act 2023 Motion made, and Question put , That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 8. —(Michael Tomlinson.)”
“Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)), Sanctions That the Russia (Sanctions) (EU Exit) (Amendment) Regulations 2024 (SI, 2024, No. 218), dated 26 February, a copy of which was laid before this House on 28 February, be approved.— (Suzanne Webb.) Question agreed to. Committee of Public Accounts Ordered, That Sir Jeremy Quin be discharged from the Committee of Public Accounts and Matt Warman be added. —(Sir Bill Wiggin, on behalf of the Committee of Selection.) Petition”
“118(6)), That the draft Energy-Intensive Industry Electricity Support Payments and Levy Regulations 2024, which were laid before this House on 22 January, be approved.— (Suzanne Webb.) Question agreed to. Companies Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)), That the draft Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Act 2023 (Consequential, Supplementary and Incidental Provisions) Regulations 2024, which were laid before this House on 1 February, be approved.— (Suzanne Webb.) Question agreed to. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)), That the draft Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Act 2023 (Financial Penalty) Regulations 2024, which were laid before this House on 19 February, be approved.— (Suzanne Webb.) Question agreed to.”
“118(6)), That the draft Electricity Supplier Obligations (Excluded Electricity) (Amendment) Regulations 2024, which were laid before this House on 22 January, be approved.— (Suzanne Webb.) Question agreed to. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)), That the draft Renewables Obligation (Amendment) (Energy Intensive Industries) Order 2024, which was laid before this House on 23 January, be approved.— (Suzanne Webb.) Question agreed to. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)), That the draft Electricity Capacity (Supplier Payment etc.) (Amendment and Excluded Electricity) Regulations 2024, which were laid before this House on 22 January, be approved.— (Suzanne Webb.) Question agreed to. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No.”
“—( Suzanne Webb .) Question agreed to. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)), Education That the draft Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Act 2022 (Consequential Amendments) Order 2024, which was laid before this House on 22 January, be approved. —( Suzanne Webb .) Question agreed to. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)), Pensions That the draft Occupational Pension Schemes (Funding and Investment Strategy and Amendment) Regulations 2024, which were laid before this House on 26 February, be approved. —( Suzanne Webb .) Question agreed to. Electricity Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No.”
“Before I come to motions 4 to 13 on the Order Paper, I should draw the attention of the House to an error under item 11 in the printed version—it has been corrected online. The version of the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Act 2023 (Consequential, Supplementary and Incidental Provisions) Regulations 2024 that is before us today and that was considered by the Delegated Legislation Committee is the draft laid on 1 February 2024, not the draft laid on 10 January 2024, which has been withdrawn and replaced. Delegated Legislation Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)), Local Government That the draft Combined Authorities (Overview and Scrutiny Committees, Access to Information and Audit Committees) (Amendment) Regulations 2024, which were laid before this House on 19 February, be approved.”
“Order. Before the right hon. Lady intervenes and the hon. Lady goes further down this route, let me say that I have a personal, passionate interest this subject. I am paying great attention to what the hon. Lady is saying, and she has rather moved away from the context of the Bill.”
“Order. I am sorry to have to interrupt the hon. Lady. There is a great deal of meat in this Bill, which she and I both understand very well indeed, but she really is going very wide of the subject. Could I please bring her back to the subject of the Bill under discussion this morning?”
“Order. I have to impress on hon. Members that the Bill under discussion is concerned with the legal importing of puppies, kittens and ferrets. Will the hon. Gentleman please stick to the subject under debate?”
“The hon. Gentleman has been here long enough to know that that is not a point of order for the Chair. It is abundantly plain to anyone watching the debate that the hon. Member for Llanelli (Dame Nia Griffith) is on her feet, speaking from the Opposition Front Bench.”
“Order. I fully appreciate the orchestration, but it would be quite a good idea if one intervention was responded to before the next one was made.”
“The hon. Lady will appreciate that that is not a strictly a matter for the Chair, but it is now a matter of record, and she can therefore take it that the record has been set straight.”
“I do apologise to the hon. Gentleman. He did indicate to me that he wished to speak, but the business was moving so fast that I overlooked him. Question put and agreed to.”
“Order. A significant number of Members wish to participate, so I gently suggest that if every Member speaks for half an hour, not everybody will get in.”
“Order. I have no notice that the hon. Gentleman has asked permission to take part in the debate. Do the owner of the debate and the Minister agree that Mr Howell should speak?”