Sir Roger Gale
MP for Herne Bay and Sandwich · Conservative · United Kingdom
“In welcoming the Prime Minister to his place, let me say that I noticed his criticism of the water companies—a justified criticism, in many cases. May I direct his attention to the predatory activities of another private company?”
“The Secretary of State appears to think it is scaremongering to suggest that, with effect from this weekend, passenger and freight traffic using the channel tunnel and the port of Dover will be disrupted as a result of the European entry and exit system.”
“Before I call Esther McVey to move the motion, and then the Minister to respond, I remind Members that they may make a speech only with the prior permission of the Member in charge of the debate. No such notice has been given.”
“As the Minister has indicated, over the spring bank holiday there was chaos at Dover, at St Pancras and at the channel tunnel because of the failure of the EES. The French authorities were quite simply not prepared or able to implement the facilities properly.”
“This House has the capacity to criticise, but it also has the capacity to be fair. The Minister probably finds himself between a rock and a cliff face in a situation that he did not make himself. That does not absolve the MCA from the criticism that has rightly been levelled at it earlier today.”
“To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, what measures the Government have put in place to ensure that in the coming holiday season, travellers and business freight are not delayed at our ports, our international railway stations and our airports as a result of the imposition of the European entry and exit system.”
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“There has been no significant animal welfare gain under this Administration since they took office, and their very first measure is one that seeks to dimmish the welfare of animals. That cannot be right. I therefore urge the Committee to reject this measure this afternoon. This instrument has to have a full and proper debate on the Floor of the House of Commons. That is a debate in which I would like to participate and then be able to vote. In conclusion, I am and always have been wholly wedded to the validation of alternative methods. That is what is needed, not this half-baked measure.”
“It therefore saddens me that, having made a commitment to animal welfare, this Government should, as their first practical measure of any kind, seek to diminish animal welfare, rather than enhance it, by trying to include in national infrastructure an item that has no place in that legislation at all. By the way, I do not share the view of the Liberal Democrat spokesman, the hon. Member for Cheltenham, about the 2023 Act; it was a good and necessary piece of legislation. There are arguments to be had about its scope; nevertheless, the fundamental principle was correct. What the Committee is being asked to do this afternoon is not correct. The road map has been referred to—great, we apparently have a road map, when the engine has not even started.”
“Having said that, we also recognised that we do not solve a problem by moving it from A to B. As some would have done then—indeed, as some would do now—simply shutting down animal experimentation in this country might give people a warm glow, but it would only move the problem from the United Kingdom to other countries, where the research would be carried out under worse conditions. There would be no animal welfare gain. The commitment has to be to validate alternatives, and to move as swiftly as possible to in vitro and other methods of research, rather than in vivo. That is what we should be heading for.”
“The Minister said in her opening remarks that life sciences are vital to the future of this country, and she is absolutely right. I have no desire to impede the work of our life sciences sector—far from it; I would like to enhance it, particularly at Discovery Park in Sandwich. Some 40 years ago, I was the founding chairman of the all-party parliamentary group for FRAME—the Fund for the Replacement of Animals in Medical Experiments. I had the huge privilege at that time of working with Professor Michael Balls, to whom the hon. Member for Bristol East referred. who then led the European Centre for the Validation of Alternative Methods. Our commitment and desire was to seek—bear in mind that this was 40 years ago—validated alternatives to the use of animals. It has always been my view that animals have no place in a laboratory.”
“Thank you for calling me, Sir Alec. As you are aware, I am not a member of the Committee and I therefore have no right to vote, but I do have the right to speak, which I am now exercising. My interest in this topic, in parliamentary terms, goes back a very long time. I am not and never have been an animal rights activist; I am an animal welfarist, and in my mind there is a fundamental difference between the two. I do not, and never will, condone any illegal activity, including violent demonstration of any kind—I want to place that firmly on the record. In my constituency, I have Discovery Park, the former Pfizer establishment at Sandwich. It is an absolutely excellent life sciences establishment, embracing some 100 to 150 small and medium-sized life sciences businesses.”
“We do not have green belt in east Kent. We used to have something called farmland; it is now called blighted land, because it has been zoned for housing, but it is not being built on. House building in east Kent has virtually come to a grinding halt, and houses are not selling as a direct result of this Government’s policies. How many unbuilt-out housing consents have already been granted? Should we not be using those before we start taking further agricultural land for building?”
“Order. The hon. Lady arrived after the start of the debate. I will allow her to intervene on the strict understanding that she remains for the entirety of the debate. That goes for any other Members who arrived after the start of the debate.”
“Order. The hon. Gentleman was generous in giving way, but he has eaten into the time available. Eight Members who wish to speak have submitted names: by my miserable mathematics, that works out at about four minutes a head. Anybody who has not put in their name ahead of the debate is unlikely to get called. I call Ayoub Khan.”
“I now call Alison Hume to move the motion and I shall then call the Minister to respond. I have been given no notice of any other speeches with prior permission, so no other Member will be permitted to participate other than through an intervention. There will not be an opportunity for the Member in charge to wind up, as is the convention in 30-minute debates.”
“Order. I will place this on the record: Mr Speaker deprecates prepared interventions. Interventions are supposed to be a comment on what is being said at the time. I understand that even Members from areas as far from Yorkshire and Derbyshire as Northern Ireland have constituency interests in this topic, but what you say really must relate to the debate.”
“On Saturday last, I was in Herne Bay on Mortimer Street, where there is an absolutely fabulous toy shop called Kids Korner. It was empty. I said to them, “How are you doing?” They said, “The shop is empty, the street is empty. Nobody is spending any money.” The hospitality industry is on its knees. The hon. Member for Canterbury (Rosie Duffield) and I attended a roundtable recently, where every single person present said that they were having a hard time, and some were in danger of going into liquidation. I raised this example in the House earlier this week: one chain of 25 cafés, which employs young people, had a profit of £12 over the last 12 months. That is due entirely to this Government’s policies.”
“In east Kent, an entrepreneurial chain of 25 coffee bars employs young people who otherwise would probably be unemployable. The profit margin on those 25 coffee bars for the last year was £12. The hospitality industry is on its knees. Will the Chancellor recognise the need to cut VAT on hospitality to 10%?”
“I believe that new clause 22, in the name of the hon. Member for Llanelli, would do the job. I hope that further and very serious consideration will be given to adopting that resolution.”
“I find it quite appalling that companies of size and international importance that have been named today—including Pfizer in my own constituency, which is a good employer—should have put themselves in the position that they are in when in some cases, for up to 25 years, pensioners have not been rewarded in the manner to which I believe them to be entitled. As I say, for my money, Pfizer is an excellent company. It does good work and is a good employer, but somewhere along the line, in the back office—probably in the United States—a decision was taken not to uprate pensions. That is quite simply wrong. While I understand that the Minister comes to this issue with a reasonably open mind and a good heart, I do not think that his proposal does the job and I am not certain that the Opposition Front-Bench amendment does the job.”
“It seems to me that the Government’s proposals are hugely complicated—unnecessarily so—and do not actually do the job. New clause 24, tabled by Opposition Front Benchers, who I know have put a lot of effort into trying to get this right, gives a get-out in the form of a lack of surplus, which I believe would enable those companies that have neglected their duties until now to carry on neglecting their duties. For that reason, my personal preference is for new clause 22. I represent the remains of the Pfizer empire in Sandwich. Not entirely surprisingly, I have therefore a significant number—one is a significant number, by the way—of constituents who were affected by the pre-1997 section in the 1995 Act.”
“That it has taken this long to get to grips with it is wrong, but we now have the opportunity to set things right. The hon. Member for Llanelli (Dame Nia Griffith), in an excellent speech, set out the stall very clearly indeed. I have huge sympathy with her new clause. Were it to be called, I would vote for it without any question. The right hon. Lady made it very plain—it is indeed very plain—that there is no suggestion that any redress should be retrospective; there is no question of any vast back payments to those whose pensions have been affected. I listened carefully to what the Minister said about retrospection—by the way, I agree that retrospective legislation normally ends in tears—but the proposed measure is not retrospective in that sense. We come to how to get this right.”
“There is clearly a great deal of good in the Pension Schemes Bill; that is why it went through Committee relatively easily. I do not wish to be a dog in the manger about that, but instead to recognise the good in the Bill. I shall focus on the issues raised in new clauses 22 and 24. I do not pretend to be expert in these matters, but I do know injustice when I see it. As you know, Madam Deputy Speaker, I fought for many years for the uprating of frozen pensions for ex-pat citizens overseas. That is a shame from which the reputation of this country will take a long time to recover, and I fear that we are about to endorse yet another such shame. There is absolutely no doubt in most people’s minds that the Pensions Act 1995 was flawed. This issue is an unintended consequence that was not foreseen.”
“T6. I think I must have missed something in the answers the Secretary of State gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight East (Joe Robertson) and the shadow Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Laura Trott). Schools in my constituency do not have enough money to pay for SEND pupils. It is no good the Secretary of State talking about capital expenditure with more on this and more on that—we need to know where the money is coming from to pay the revenue costs incurred by SEND pupils.”
“It is estimated that there are some 200 highly qualified Ukrainian dentists resident as refugees in the United Kingdom. They could be working for the health service, but, because of the moribund attitude of the General Dental Council, they are not allowed to do so. Can we try to drag the GDC into at least the 20th century so that those talents can be utilised?”
“I understand that the order of the day when dealing with Mr Trump is flattery. I am afraid that 42 years of experience in this House have not yet qualified me for that level of sycophancy. The presentation of a Kremlin wish list by the White House as a peace plan is risible, which the Prime Minister indicated rather more elegantly than I have. Will the Prime Minister seriously consider—if necessary, unilaterally—ensuring that legislation goes through so that the frozen Russian assets can be used to support the Ukrainian war effort?”
“There appear to be other attractions in the main Chamber today, and a number of Members who indicated that they wished to participate are not present. For that reason, I have no need, I think, to put any time limit on contributions.”
“As the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (Jamie Stone) said, this is the first time that an e-petition debate has been instigated by a Member of this House, so it gives me great pleasure to call the culprit, Rupert Lowe.”
“Will the Minister reassure the House that the shocking release of microplastic pellets into the seas off the channel coast is a one-off and that it has not affected and will not affect any of the beaches around the rest of the Kent coast?”
“Will the Solicitor General discuss with the Crown Prosecution Service and the Home Secretary how best the Metropolitan police may be encouraged to expedite their inquiry into the crimes of those who aided and abetted Mohamed Fayed, so that—for the sake of those who suffered violence and rape at this hands—they can be brought to book?”
“At the moment, Kent has a basket-case county council, but it is likely to have three unitary authorities and no mayor. Who is going to replace our excellent police and crime commissioner, and how will they do the job?”
“May I first pay tribute to Matthew Scott, Kent’s police and crime commissioner, who, over many years and through working closely with chief constables, has seen a successive increase year on year in the number of police officers in Kent that he has managed to fund. While I am on my feet, and as one of the few Members of this House who have actually held a warrant, may I also pay tribute to Kent constabulary, which continues to do a superb job under the existing system? The only example that we have of a mayoral system is in London, and it is a disaster. It has failed. I am sorry, but for the Minister to say that the model of the police and crime commissioner is broken, while seeking to praise the police and crime commissioners, is little short of disingenuous.”
“I therefore hope the Secretary of State will resist with all her power the calls of those on both sides of this House and outside it who would seek to destroy one of the jewels in our national crown.”
“It is a very long time since I was taught to edit tape with a chinagraph pencil and a razor blade, but the fundamental principle remains the same: you do not change the sense of what somebody has said—ever. Those who have read the transcript of Trump’s speech and then compared it with the “Panorama” edit know full well that that programme was a travesty of journalism and deeply dishonest. It also represented a desperate lack of editorial control. I now part company with some of my colleagues; I believe, and I still believe, that the overwhelming majority of journalists employed by the BBC—and, for the record, those employed by Independent Television and Sky News—work fearlessly, faithfully and honestly to deliver the truth, and, when it comes to those working overseas, as has been said, with great courage also.”
“Before we start, it has been drawn to my attention that a photograph is to be taken in the Chamber at 11 o’clock. We have no power to suspend this sitting to accommodate that, but I will try to get a message to the Speaker’s Office to say that there are Members here who would like to be in the Chamber for that and that if it could be held off until about 11.5 am, that should give Members here time to get across. Those of us taking part in the second debate will not have that luxury.”
“Order. Before we proceed, I should say that eight hon. Members have indicated that they wish to speak. I propose to call the Front Benchers at 10.30 am. We have tried to get a message to the Speaker’s Office and I have not had a response, so we do not know what the score is. If the Front Benchers curtail their remarks, I can suspend the sitting slightly early. Those who are participating in the following business will have to remain here, but other Members should be able to make it to the Chamber by 11 o’clock. I am minded to put a time limit on speeches, but for the moment, if we can work on a self-denying ordinance of five minutes, we should be able to get everybody in. I call Josh Dean.”
“The Minister is a decent man, and the House knows that the business of the House was delayed while he hurriedly had to rewrite the statement that he was expected to make, but he is stretching the bounds of credibility too far. Yesterday, the Prime Minister told the House that he had full confidence in a man who befriended the vilest of convicted paedophiles. He should not have been appointed in the first place—that was a gross error of judgment and everybody in this House knows it—and the Prime Minister has to take responsibility. Now that Lord Mandelson has gone, will there be a Cabinet Office inquiry into the manner in which Mandelson was negotiating with a convicted paedophile while he was a Minister?”
“Discovery Park in my constituency at Sandwich is the phoenix that rose from the ashes of Pfizer. It is now a cluster of over 100 enterprising and successful small companies in the life sciences field. The loss of cornerstones such as AstraZeneca and MSD could have a devastating effect upon the architecture of the pharmaceutical industry in this country. What are the Government going to do, practically, to reverse the decline in confidence in that industry?”
“The House will not be sitting when President Trump visits the United Kingdom, so we will not have an opportunity to send a clear message from this House at that time, but the Prime Minister will have an opportunity. Will the Leader of the House ask the Prime Minister to place on the agenda for discussion in the margins the withdrawal of USAID from Africa, which is having such a devastating effect?”
“I too welcome the new Leader of the House to his position. I suspect he will have rather more fun at the Dispatch Box than his successor in the Government Whips Office will. I associate myself with his kind remarks about Colin Lee, whose service as one of the Clerks of the House has been exemplary. As one of the longest-serving members of the Speaker’s Panel of Chairs, I have had the pleasure of working with Colin over very many years. He will be sorely missed, and the House owes him a huge debt of gratitude. Charities in the United Kingdom working in Africa tell me that as a result of the withdrawal of the United States Agency for International Development, women and children are dying in droves.”
“The International Court of Justice ruling is not binding. It is not in law. We did not have to abide by it. Why are we giving away British territory to Mauritius and then renting it back? There was no need for us to do so. Why are we doing it?”
“The point has been made over and over in this discussion that we are giving away something that we did not have to give away, and are renting it back—and the British taxpayer is paying for it. Last week, I asked the Leader of the House how much this was going to cost. She said, “alongside legislation we publish all the necessary documents, including the costings, which we have been transparent about.” —[ Official Report , 4 September 2025; Vol. 772, c. 453.] I regard the Minister as a friend, but to say the least, his figures have been opaque. Let me ask one simple question that my right hon. Friend might know the answer to: how much is the United States contributing to this deal?”
“We have been given an assurance from the Front Bench that no advance notice will need to be given about operational arrangements from the base. However, my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Sir Bernard Jenkin) earlier indicated that there had to be Mauritian Government approval for the construction of facilities. How can we have the operational facilities without the construction of the facilities that back them up?”
“Regardless of the fact that there is no legal requirement on the Government of the United Kingdom to transfer ownership of the British Indian Ocean Territories to Mauritius, the Government have challenged the Opposition’s figures about the cost of that exercise. Before the debate on Tuesday, will the Government place in the Library of the House of Commons detailed estimates of the cost to the British taxpayer?”
“It has now been some weeks since President Trump invited the leader of the Russian Federation to the United States of America. Since then, Putin has increased his assault on the civilian population of Ukraine and shown no sign whatsoever of reaching the ceasefire that was desired, so Trump’s initiative has failed. Will the Foreign Secretary use his visit to the United Nations next week to call again for real United States sanctions on Russia?”
“I am sure we can all say amen to that. There are 34 Members seeking to intervene in this debate, and we need to go on to the wind-ups at about 6.30. Work it out for yourselves: that is about five minutes a head. I am not going to put a time limit on at this stage, but it may mean that some people drop off the end if colleagues are over-zealous with their time.”
“Order. I think the Father of the House was reaching his peroration. I am fully aware of the friendship between the right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois) and Sir David, but he will have the opportunity to make his case shortly.”
“Order. We are beginning to play “beat the clock”. I understand that the right hon. Member for North East Cambridgeshire (Steve Barclay) has some important information about the restoration and renewal of the Palace of Westminster that I am sure Members will wish to hear, so I do not propose to impose a time limit immediately. After he has spoken, I shall impose a time limit of five minutes.”
“Order. Before I hand over to the Chairman of Ways and Means, I would like to say that this will be my last session in the Chair for the foreseeable future. I thank colleagues for the courtesy with which I have been treated, and thank you in particular for the tributes that you have paid to my friend David Amess. David and I signed on the register on the same day when we came into the House. I am very grateful to you all.”
“Before I call the Secretary of State to make his statement, I place on the record the fact that Mr Speaker and the Deputy Speakers were disappointed to see extensive coverage in the media this morning of Ministers’ responses to the Independent Water Commission, before the House has had the opportunity to consider the matter. It would be nice to think that the normal courtesies will be resumed.”
“Order. It is apparent that a very considerable number of Back-Bench Members wish to participate in this statement. There are two further statements to follow before we come to the main business of the day, which is also very important, so I urge colleagues on both sides of the House to ask brief questions and not make statements.”
“That concludes the statement. I thank the Secretary of State and the shadow Secretary of State for their presence throughout a lengthy session.”
“Order. Once again, a very large number of hon. Members wish to take part in this discussion. The intention is to try to accommodate everybody, but that will mean Members exercising a degree of self-restraint that was not entirely evident during the previous statement. I leave it to you, but if you want everybody to be called, then please, we need questions, not statements. If I may say so, Foreign Secretary, we also need relatively brief answers.”
“Order. It has become apparent already that if we are to get everybody in, we will have to set a formal time limit. After the next speaker, I will put in place a six-minute time limit. If there are a lot of interventions, which will of course add time, it will be reduced smartly to five minutes and possibly even to four minutes.”
“Order. The winding-up speeches will have to start at 5.30 pm. There are 37 Members standing on both sides of the House. I am not allowed to impose a time limit, but were I to do so, it would be about four minutes. It is for Members to decide whether to allow their colleagues to speak or to take up more of the time, in which case it is quite clear that not everybody will be called to speak. I call John McDonnell.”
“Order. First, I am not. Secondly, the Secretary of State came very close to unparliamentary language in accusing another hon. Member of hypocrisy; I am sure she did not intend that.”