James Lawless
Kildare North · Fianna Fáil · Ireland
“I am always open to feedback. The academics and authors of that report are entitled to their views, as are others. I just do not share all of their conclusions. As the Deputy said, the consultant spending was before my time. A lot of it was before the Department even existed.”
“More broadly, and this is something I think there is great potential to do more on, we are also promoting modern methods of construction, MMC, so we can embrace 2D or 3D models where they are either partially assembled off site and then brought to the location or almost fully assembled and the finished kit is brought into place.”
“In the energy space, that includes a commitment of €10 billion to enhance the grid capacity, because we need to be able to transit the energy as well as generate it, the workforce and the talent to do that - everything from retrofitting to green energy technicians and renewable energy engineers.”
“The capital funding envelop available to me is the mechanism through which I fund these projects, which is significant with €4.55 billion allocated across my Department for capital projects. SETU is the relevant institute in the south east, and it has multiple campuses, including a presence in the Xcelerate Centre at St.”
“I will recap on some of the measures I have introduced already because it is important to put them on the record again. In the previous budget, I was pleased to introduce the first ever permeant fee cut for students since free fees were introduced almost 30 years ago with a €500 permanent reduction.”
“Exactly. That is why we have a record €4.5 billion commitment across the sector. Regarding student facilities, there is the likes of the bundle 2 PPP programme which enhances student facilities on university campuses across the country.”
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“Almost all speakers discussed the income disregard for holiday earnings. As somebody who worked every weekend, every Christmas and every summer up to my own student days, I am very alive to that issue. I would not like to see any student taking an extra shift or working an extra Sunday over the winter suddenly becoming frozen out of a grant system. The original logic for that was not financial but to do with the idea - dare I say a little paternalistic, perhaps - that a student should not be working and should be focusing on their studies. We must accept economic reality and economic necessity and the modern world. With full employment, there are many jobs to be had for students who want to contribute, hone their skills and get greater life experience. No decision has been made yet. All of these decisions are subject to budgetary process.”
“More students will avail of SUSI funding supports towards the student contribution. Following the most recent SUSI revisions, which will be in the year ahead, households with an income of up to €115,000 per annum will qualify for at least some subvention towards the student contribution fee and other measures. That is reasonable. A sum of €115,000 is not a low income. Notwithstanding that, I understand there are challenges and the squeezed middle is an area that I am conscious of. A few Senators referred to gross versus net and the cost of childcare, mortgages and other things that come into play. We must note and recognise that the direction of travel has been upwards. We continue to increase those thresholds, supports, grants and rates. That is how it should be. I will continue to examine that.”
“Senator Tully spoke about reforms to the SUSI system. Again, I entirely agree. I am looking at the SUSI system in the round. There are a lot of moving parts but I am examining the system across the board. We know already that almost all students, barring international students and a couple of exemptions for second-time around students, have their tuition fees paid in full by the State. That is already the case and I think €300 million-odd is provided for that each year. That is already spent. That has already gone to a contribution made towards every student, barring some minority circumstances. In addition, almost half of all students have the student contribution fee paid in full or in part by the State. We are increasing the SUSI grant thresholds by 15% this year.”
“Starting with the student contribution and student grants, I am acutely conscious of the fiscal challenges facing students - the cost of education, put simply - and the need to have a progressive system to give most support to those who most need it while ensuring that nobody is excluded from the education system for financial means reasons. A number of speakers addressed that. Senator Kennelly spoke about people who should not be deprived of education because of cost being a barrier. I entirely agree. Senator Ní Chuilinn talked about struggling students and Senator Kennelly said that education should not be just for the privileged few. I entirely agree. Progressive measures target supports for those who most need them, those who are really struggling. They are the people e need to keep to the forefront of our minds in these debates.”
“I am committed to ensuring that our research and further and higher education systems and innovations systems across the board are fully resourced so we can continue to build the knowledge and capability that underpin our prosperity. The programme for Government is clear in its ambition to provide world-class third level education and research in a way that is sustainable, inclusive and impactful. I will speak to some of the issues that arose during the debate. I will work through the motion text but will refer to contributions as they were made as well.”
“Everything that we do in it drives the wheels of our economy, which in turn drives the wheels of social progress. We are facing many challenges. We have global trade uncertainty, as a number of speakers pointed out. We have digital disruption. I think disruption is actually a good thing. Change is the only constant in life; we just have to embrace it and adapt to it. In respect of AI, yesterday I secured approval at Cabinet for Ireland to join the EU quantum pact. Quantum computing is the next AI, people are telling us already. There are digital leaps forward all the time. We need to be ready to embrace and understand them and for our population to be equipped to deal with and leverage them in a positive, productive way. That is what further and higher education is all about.”
“This has been made possible by all the economic success predicated upon that skills base and investment in education, resources and research that we have done. A few speakers used the phrase "knowledge economy". It is exactly what we are today, and long may that continue. The Department that I now lead was created by an Taoiseach, Deputy Micheál Martin, when he took office in 2020. One of his primary goals, as Senator Dee Ryan mentioned, it was in the Fianna Fáil manifesto coming into that election, and then the Taoiseach made it happen and indeed continued it into the current Government. It is a core driver for national policy and economic and societal progress. It is an educational Ministry, first and foremost, but it is also an economic Ministry.”
“It is clear from the motion and contributions that we agree on the pivotal role our third level education and research systems play as a critical engine of economic growth, while being an opportunity across the island. At the core of my approach is a simple but powerful belief, one that has been our industrial policy for the last 50 years, that Ireland's greatest natural resource is our people. Our talent, skills and population are the secret sauce that has propelled us from being effectively an agrarian, pre-industrial nation to the advanced economy we are today. All the resources that have been created as a result in turn fuel the public good and support the services we all need in areas like education, housing and healthcare.”
“I was just taking stock and this has been a good debate. I thank the Senators who brought forward the motion, and all who contributed. I am delighted to see the topic is getting air time in this House and the other House, because it is of such fundamental importance to our economy, our society and everything we do and have done as a nation. I am delighted this opportunity for all to have their say arose. I have listened intently. I will try to respond to most if not all remarks now. This debate will inform my views going forward. My door is open and I want to hear from all Senators at any stage their views and thoughts on the sector and how we can improve and what needs to be done.”
“If the Deputy wants to raise a particular case or cases, I would be happy to take a detailed note on that. Perhaps I can engage with the Deputy off-line to see whether we can progress a particular issue for him.”
“I thank the Deputy for his advocacy. I appreciate that there can be short notice - I understand it is typically seven days from a letter of offer to a response. If an apprentice is not in a position to take up the offer that time, it is given to the next person on the list. There are two competing goals. One is to keep the system moving and keep apprentices on the waiting list moving forward through the queue while at the same time accommodating people's preferences in terms of region or location in order that they can continue their studies. As I said, it may not always be the closest location but it is the next on the list at that particular time. Timeliness and location are the two competing issues. There can be anomalies, which I have seen in cases raised with me.”
“There are targets and supports in place, such as the rent-a-room relief. People can avail of €14,000 tax free while providing dig type accommodation. Other measures are provided. There is an accommodation allowance for craft apprentices who have to travel outside of their home region to avail of accommodation elsewhere. I acknowledge there is a difficulty. There is no easy answer for the Deputy. There are three refusals allowed, but it is not a guarantee that the next will be in a preferable location. I will respond further on that.”
“They are delivered in Kerry, the Deputy's county. The training of farriers is again a specialist niche area delivered in my constituency of Kildare because it is the home of the horse. It has a particular and narrow number of places, and there is a reason for that. Such places will not be available nationwide. However, many other courses are available nationwide. The difficulty is finding a course on a schedule that suits a particular apprentice that is becoming available at that time. If the apprentice is not able to take up that course, the next best offer may not be guaranteed to be in the closest location and may in fact be further away. There is a degree of lottery that kicks in at that stage. The Department is very aware of the burden that travel and accommodation can impose on an apprentice who is asked to travel away from home.”
“That person is a key contact point for guidance, problem solving and practical support throughout the training journey. Apprentices and their employers - it is a two-way pact - can decline up to three offers if the timing or location does not suit their needs and can be rescheduled. There are three goes at this. Three offers can be made, and there can be three refusals and three attempts to reschedule and rebalance. It is not a perfect system but it aims to balance fairness, urgency and regional capacity constraints. Just like university or college courses, not every apprenticeship course is available in every region. There are reasons for that. For example, stone cutting and stone masonry is a very specialist niche area, and a very difficult and highly skilled one, but there are only 30 places available nationwide.”
“There are national programmes delivered through ETBs at local level and technological universities, with SOLAS being the co-ordinating body. It is important, as I said the outset, that the goal of every apprenticeship programme is to match capacity with demand and to match the needs of apprentices and their employer. The objective is to get the apprentice into training as quickly, efficiently and productively as possible, and ideally always at the nearest available training centre. If it is not available at the nearest centre, the next closest is offered. There can be challenges when a placement is offered that is not local. Every registered apprentice is assigned a dedicated training adviser in the ETB as the go-to point when issues arise.”
“As the Deputy has acknowledged, the resources that have matched that include millions of euro, in particular in the last budget, to cement that track. Apprenticeships play a vital role in our education and skills ecosystem, combining on-the-job training with off-the-job learning. It is sometimes put as earn as you learn and delivers real career opportunities in every part of the country in a vital range of skills. There are 77 apprenticeship programmes, ranging from traditional craft apprenticeships to non-traditional things like cybersecurity, accounting technicians, digital marketing and many other areas that may not have been part of the apprenticeship spectrum in the past. The Government is continuing to expand training capacity for apprenticeships, with budget 2024 providing €144 million for apprenticeship training.”
“I thank Deputy Cahill for raising this important matter. I acknowledge the Deputy's continued advocacy for his constituency of Kerry and his interest in this topic. He has raised this issue with me via parliamentary questions as well as elsewhere. I am aware of the issue the Deputy has raised. It is an important and frustrating issue. It has been raised with me in a number of different situations. In my response I want to set out the reasons why this can arise, how it arises and how it may be best managed. As the Deputy acknowledged in his remarks, the Government is fully committed to making apprenticeships a strong, productive and positive journey for learners and employers. That is set out in the Action Plan for Apprenticeship 2021-25.”
“I thank the Senator. That is helpful. I was not aware there was an issue in Macroom. We will look into that in a little more detail. There are variances across the sector, as I said, and certain historical practices have developed over and above what was perhaps the design or intention of those facilities. Perhaps that needs to be looked at as well, as to whether it is appropriate or right that certain courses be developed in certain centres at different levels. I will certainly take that away. I know Macroom, and perhaps the Senator will write to me and pass on more details. I will certainly look into it. I reiterate my commitment to Youthreach and the good work it does, and that the tutors do at every level across the board.”
“The principal issue is that Youthreach is mainly focused on levels 3 and 4 of the national framework so it would be unusual for Youthreach teachers to be eligible for the LDA fees. This is a reflection of the structure of the overall FET system. In essence, there may be something of a mismatch in the situation arising in the Senator's question in that, historically, it has arisen in some FETs whereas the goal and intention of the programme is to deliver levels 3 and 4 courses, with learners usually moving on to different facilities for level 5 and beyond. I am committed to the critical role that Youthreach plays and I want to support it. Most of all, I would like to better understand the Senator’s question so that I might give a more comprehensive answer in due course.”
“Therefore, as LDA rates relate mainly to levels 5 and 6, the guidelines do not cover LDA fees in this part of the sector. I am aware that some Youthreach centres have started to deliver level 5 courses, but this was not generally envisaged for Youthreach. It was expected and anticipated that learners who wished to progress further would move on to levels 5 and 6 courses in other parts of the FET system, for example, via post-leaving certificate, PLC, courses. I am aware that questions have arisen about the payment of LDA rates to Youthreach staff involved in the delivery of level 5 courses. The LDA rates do not exclude any teacher from receiving a payment if they are involved in assessing a relevant module. My officials are in contact with SOLAS and the relevant ETBs and are working on communications that will address such questions.”
“For historical reasons, there are also 31 level 4 modules for which rates are paid where they form part of the QQI major award at level 5. Guidance on LDA rates would not exclude any teacher from receiving a payment if they are involved in assessing such modules. To deal specifically with the Senator's query, it would be helpful if in her reply she identified in which centre she met the individual as it would help me get to the bottom of the issue afterwards. Youthreach is an important programme, as she acknowledged, designed to support young people who have left school early. According to the 2015 operator guidelines for Youthreach centres, the primary focus of Youthreach is on the delivery of QQI modules at levels 3 and 4.”
“LDA fees are paid to assessors in respect of their work in devising and assessing QQI modules on full-time programmes at levels 5 and 6 of the national framework of qualifications. Rates are dependent on the type of assessments, for example, whether they are written, practical, or portfolio-based assessments or other forms. The rates payable are set out in a circular from 2011 and, since then, some modifications have been made. In 2017, the circular was brought in line with the new common awards and it was agreed between the then Department of Education and Skills and SOLAS that a revised set of locally devised assessment rates would be developed with fees paid for a fixed list of modules. The updated rates remain principally payable for full-time QQI modules at levels 5 and 6.”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Seanadóir Ryan and thank her for raising this issue with me today. I will set out the context around the query before answering as Members may not be familiar with the issue that arises and the surrounding circumstances, so it might be helpful to the debate. A locally devised assessment, LDA, refers to an assessment created by a further education and training, FET, provider to evaluate learners’ skills and competencies in a specific course or module. These assessments align with the learning outcomes set by Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI, or potentially other awarding bodies and are designed locally to suit the needs of learners and courses. Many FET courses focus on skills-based learning, so LDAs often involve practical tasks, projects, or portfolios rather than just written exams.”
“As its own recently resigned member, David McGinn, said recently, it is a fundamentally unserious party. Those are not my words, but his. This is a serious crisis and we need serious players. The Government provides that seriousness.”
“-----a party that was rooted in principle but ran away from government. At the first opportunity before an RTÉ microphone when the last votes were still being counted, the Labour Party declared it wanted nothing to do with government.”
“-----because, in 2020, they went on a world tour proclaiming that they had actually won the election despite the fact that they did not command a majority of the House. They lost the next election in 2024. The "most effective Opposition history the State" - it was certainly the most hyped Opposition history of State - also had the greatest drop in support in the history the State of any Opposition party when it fell by 5.5 percentage points, the greatest in half a century.”
“Across the floor, we see three groups. We see the "Shout 'em down Shinners", yet again agitating, barracking anybody or anything that stands in their way. I fundamentally believe they cannot accept the outcome of the election. They could not accept the outcome of the one before that either-----”
“Tomorrow, we will see the threats becoming real. In this House, we watched aghast as Boris Johnson and the Brexiteers prorogued parliament, when they suspended the people's assembly, denying that parliamentary procedure could take place. We watched in horror on 6 January 2021 when the Capitol rioters stormed Washington DC to stop the election results being ratified. We never thought we would see it in this House. We never thought we would see it in our own democracy. How apt it is that, on April Fools' Day, the people who say they want to have a serious debate waste yet another opportunity by spending an afternoon dealing with this sort of farce when serious issues consume us.”
“We stand on a precipice. The world is burning and the barbarians are at the gate. We face multiple existential crises. We have instability in the Middle East, war in Ukraine and climate change. Trade wars will start tomorrow, with tariffs posing threats to the global economy.”
“Donogh O'Malley or many others could be referenced in this debate. My party has always prized education and put it to the fore. Education is the bridge to all that we do as an economy and subsequently as a society because it is the private enterprise, created by a successful education system, that creates the public good and the resources that we then use to support the public good. Deputy Kenny touched on the many competing challenges and the many potential alternative pathways through this in his supplementary question. That is what I want to explore in the coming weeks. We are very early into the budget cycle, and I look forward to those discussions.”
“If we could even progress the measures that support those most in need and address access to education in a financially sustainable way, we will have these conversations. I am holding an event next week to start that conversation.”
“Yes, the programme for Government will be honoured. The programme for Government commits to a reduction in the student contribution fee in a financially sustainable way, which I will do, of course. I am not going to renege on a programme for Government commitment. I am going to follow it fully but how do we do that? Is it abolition, as Deputy Boyd Barrett argues for? That is €1.5 billion every Government term. How many student accommodation beds could we build for €1.5 billion? How many courses could we provide, and how many more SUSI grants could we provide? What other ways could we usefully deploy that money? Would every recipient of that €1.5 billion be categorised as somebody in need? In a universal scheme, I think probably not. These are the conversations that we have to have.”
“I thank the Deputy. We are in a new Government; I am a new Minister. We have had an election. The outworking of that election is a coalition Government. Not every policy of every party is going to be fulfilled. No party won a majority.”
“I understand the desire to continue to broaden that pool. My view is that we should do so in a targeted fashion that provides support and respects those most in need, as opposed to a blunt instrument which may not be the best use of those funds. I am open to discussion on it.”
“In that regard, I am holding an event next week where I will engage with student bodies, the universities, access officers and the representatives of different associations, including students' unions, taking their views on board in terms of understanding what the barriers are to access to education, what the costs associated with education are, and with regard to existing supports. We heard earlier that 143,000 students already benefit from the free fees initiative - almost every undergraduate, bar perhaps those in some private colleges and some repeat courses for people taking a second degree course. Some 66,600 students additionally benefit from that student contribution fee being paid in full or part. A very significant cohort of people is already receiving significant State support.”
“There are competing demands such as student accommodation, course provision, quality of education and the core training fund, or the core gap we have spoken about in other parliamentary questions. I would welcome any engagement on this topic around what priorities should be pursued and what the opportunity costs would be of prioritising some measures above others. That is a really important point. My intention in dealing with this issue is to consult. No decisions have been made yet, and we are still in the early cycle of the budgetary process but it is important to have that debate.”
“I thank Deputy Kenny, and I will treat with the programme for Government commitments and the rest later. I would be interested to know whether the Deputy agreed with the rest of my comments in that article because I did talk about targeted supports. I talked about addressing the cost of education and improving access to education. I talked about the existing support schemes and whether they should be widened or revisited to ensure the net is cast exactly where it needs to be. Are they even progressive supports, targeted at those most in need? I am not convinced that a universal measure, blanket-applied without any regard for means or indeed surplus means in some cases, is appropriate and a good use of public moneys.”
“I think we can because my own sister is a doctor who qualified in Australia and returned to Ireland and is now practising. It is evidently happening, from personal experience. On the wider arrangement, I recently spent time in India on a St. Patrick's Day trade mission. I was engaged on the reciprocal arrangements there, of which there are many. We have a reciprocal arrangement with multiple states around the world. If there are particular gaps, I am open to hearing about them. It was not in the original question so I do not have a full brief on that but I am happy to take a look at it.”
“On the Deputy's Teaching Council case, I will take the details away but it is not uncommon, unfortunately, that people have different levels of accreditation or recognition within the system, notwithstanding the Teaching Council registration. I am not going to make any comment on the individual's situation. I do not know but if it is of any assistance, I have come across a case in my own constituency work in the past and that is not uncommon at all. Often it depends on the actual original qualifications pursued, or the particular subject choices pursued by the student, whether they meet the requirements or not. As is the case in supplementaries, the Deputy's supplementary spans a number of areas. I think she was talking about returning from Australia.”
“I wanted to flag that; it may be of interest or assistance to the Deputy's constituent. There is provision within the CTA, the existing agreement, and some professional sectors such as veterinary, architects, legal and others can come to an agreement which would, I suppose, be arrived at between the two professional bodies and the sectors. That would effectively reinstate the EU professional qualifications directive for that sector. That could be implemented by the competent authority on request and will form part of future developments.”
“I thank the Deputy. On her last point about the constituent's query, if she wants to send that to my office I will happily take a look at the details of it. I will say, based on prior knowledge before I was ever a Minister in this Department, the Teaching Council has a particular set of requirements. Somebody even within the State may come a cropper - the Deputy mentioned, I think, philosophy or some of the courses. There is a very specific set of requirements around undergraduate subject choice and then usually a postgraduate qualification in teaching methodology. Those two must be combined or follow in sequence to be recognised by the Teaching Council. I do not know the details of the Deputy's constituent. I am happy to take a look at it but it may be less to do with the UK qualification and more to do with the qualification itself.”
“Inevitably, as divergence occurs over time following Brexit, it may be the case that mutual recognition becomes more difficult in certain areas if standards and requirements begin to change. My Department continues to engage with the UK Department for Business and Trade on this matter. At our most recent meeting, in January 2025, both Departments agreed to monitor developments at EU and UK level to assess impacts arising from any further initiatives.”
“Anyone wishing to practise in a regulated profession must meet the professional qualifications required by law. People should contact the relevant competent authority or regulator if they have queries or wish to advance that process. There is no requirement to have a qualification recognised in order to seek employment in unregulated professions. Of course, as the Deputy will understand, certain professions are regulated for a reason, with a high standard being necessary. There must be some rigour in that regard. There is a small number of professions where it is not possible to provide for continued recognition of UK qualifications in Ireland due to provisions in Irish law based on EU directives or regulations. Some of them relate to a requirement for establishment or residence in an EU member state.”
“As the Deputy correctly noted, the European directive on the mutual recognition of professional qualifications ceased to have general applicability to UK award holders post Brexit, that is, after December 2020. Qualifications from the UK were automatically recognised during the transitional period, which ran from 1 February to 31 December 2020. If a qualification was recognised during that time, the professional can continue to practise in Ireland or the EU. While this overall formal framework no longer applies to the recognition of qualifications from the UK, there is ongoing extensive experience within the various competent authorities, which, in consultation with my Department and other Departments, have developed revised pathways for recognition for applicants with UK professional qualifications.”
“As I said, I have had an informal meeting with the president of DkIT. I have studied the situation and am very familiar with it. DkIT is something of an outlier in that most of the ITs have been assimilated at this stage. The direction of travel is to have stronger collaborations in order to achieve a sum that is greater than the parts. That is already being done very successfully in many of the TUs around the country. DkIT is working away with Maynooth University and that collaboration is progressing well. The Deputy is very supportive, as am I, of all they are doing. I look forward to working together to progress that.”
“It makes sense for lots of reasons, including alignment of courses and programmes and geographical factors. The two institutions will very much complement each other. It is already showing itself to be a very productive engagement. Without wanting to commit, and respecting the autonomy of the institutions, I expect closer and more formal collaboration into the future.”
“Regarding the policy framework, I do not foresee any blockage. However, there is a technical difficulty, which is why DkIT has not already been subsumed. The Technological Universities Act 2018 provided that two or more institutes of technology could jointly seek technological university designation through a process. At that time, a number of applications were invited. DkIT's governing body did not pursue that option at the time. We have to respect the autonomy of institutions and decisions made by their governing board. The situation has now moved on. I understand a new governing board is in place at DkIT and there is a renewed engagement, which I welcome and support. There is great potential in the collaboration that is already progressing with Maynooth University.”
“I am aware and very much supportive of the fact that DkIT signed a formal agreement with Maynooth University in January 2024 setting out the intention of both institutions to explore joint strategic engagement on future collaborations over the coming years. Without wishing to predict or set out the path they may follow, that collaboration, which I expect will deepen, is welcome. The collaboration with Maynooth University provides a pathway into the future for DkIT. I am very supportive of that, as is the HEA. I will have the opportunity in the near future to visit the college more formally. I will continue to engage on the matter.”
“As with all higher education institutions, its positioning within the overall higher education landscape is a matter for its governing body in the first instance, within the context of national policy and the relevant legislation. My Department and the HEA have engaged, and continue to engage, with DkIT. Support continues to be provided in the context of the overarching national strategy on higher education landscape restructuring. Most recently, DkIT was allocated €3.85 million through the technological sector advancement fund. The institution's strategic plan for the period 2024 to 2028 sets out an ambition to achieve university status through the development of a strategic collaborative partnership with an existing university.”
“I am aware of the Deputy's ongoing advocacy for all things Dundalk, and, indeed, for Louth. We have discussed her interest in this matter previously, most recently when I attended the opening of the new FET centre in Dundalk, which involved a very significant Government commitment of almost €30 million in the education space for the region. I was delighted to open the centre, along with Deputy McGreehan and other colleagues. I am familiar with Dundalk Institute of Technology. I had the opportunity very recently to meet its president, albeit informally. I will be meeting him more formally and visiting the college in the near future. It is a critical institution both for the region and nationally.”