James Lawless
Kildare North · Fianna Fáil · Ireland
“I am always open to feedback. The academics and authors of that report are entitled to their views, as are others. I just do not share all of their conclusions. As the Deputy said, the consultant spending was before my time. A lot of it was before the Department even existed.”
“More broadly, and this is something I think there is great potential to do more on, we are also promoting modern methods of construction, MMC, so we can embrace 2D or 3D models where they are either partially assembled off site and then brought to the location or almost fully assembled and the finished kit is brought into place.”
“In the energy space, that includes a commitment of €10 billion to enhance the grid capacity, because we need to be able to transit the energy as well as generate it, the workforce and the talent to do that - everything from retrofitting to green energy technicians and renewable energy engineers.”
“The capital funding envelop available to me is the mechanism through which I fund these projects, which is significant with €4.55 billion allocated across my Department for capital projects. SETU is the relevant institute in the south east, and it has multiple campuses, including a presence in the Xcelerate Centre at St.”
“I will recap on some of the measures I have introduced already because it is important to put them on the record again. In the previous budget, I was pleased to introduce the first ever permeant fee cut for students since free fees were introduced almost 30 years ago with a €500 permanent reduction.”
“Exactly. That is why we have a record €4.5 billion commitment across the sector. Regarding student facilities, there is the likes of the bundle 2 PPP programme which enhances student facilities on university campuses across the country.”
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“I am engaged in that process at the moment. As with everything else, I welcome suggestions and inputs. Much as I would love to convene a working group for Maynooth and north Kildare, I remind Deputy Farrelly that I am Minister for the entire country.”
“I will respond in reverse order, taking Deputy Conway-Walsh's points first. I am not sure I accept that there is a line of student accommodation strategies from here to Mayo. Student accommodation was not a government function until very recently, when it came into my Department. It is an easy thing to throw out in a debate but I do not know how accurate it is. I presume the Deputy will agree that we need to reduce the cost of provision, which means we can do more with less. I presume she also agrees that we need to standardise design guidance, as we have done for secondary schools, for example. We also need to promote the efficient use of existing stock. There are good reasons for rethinking this. I am a new Minister and am currently looking at what is working and what is not working. I hope the Deputy will agree we are doing that.”
“That involved taking projects that were shovel ready and had planning permission but where a regulatory or cost issues arose and seeing if we could move them forward. That is what we have done here and in other colleges. There is also a longer term student accommodation strategy which is currently being drafted and on which I am very much focused. That strategy will introduce measures such as increasing supply of accommodation for students, reducing the cost of delivery using standardised design guidance, promoting the more efficient use of existing building stock and examining vacancy. We are trying to do more, faster and better.”
“I fully agree and share the Deputy's ambition for Maynooth. For that reason, I immediately made inquiries about progressing that project when I took office. A total of 116 student beds will come on stream this year in Maynooth. The university will be first to come out of that programme. I am also meeting the university president, Professor Eeva Leinonen, tomorrow. I will be visiting Maynooth for an event tomorrow, which the Deputy may also be attending, where I will meet the president. I have met her a number of times already and have engaged with a number of the principals of the student union at Maynooth. I am very mindful of that. We have a two-pronged strategy. There is the student bed activation project which I already mentioned.”
“Under that measure a percentage of student beds are ring-fenced for targeted groups of students. The target groups are those identified as being most disadvantaged using the SUSI, NAP and DARE schemes as the metrics. The Maynooth University student accommodation scheme is one of the projects being funded as part of this short-term activation programme. That project is currently on site, with 116 beds under construction and expected to be delivered for the 2025-26 academic year. Maynooth may be the first university to come through the programme and is leading the way in that sense. That is very welcome.”
“It is important for quality of life and the practicality of not turning up tired for lectures after a long commute. All of those things are important. As I mentioned earlier, my daughter is a commuter to college so I do understand the challenges facing students. On the overall plan, as a short-term measure to address the challenges faced by students in accessing accommodation, the Government approved funding to higher education institutions to activate projects with planning permission that had stalled due to cost and viability challenges. We took the approach in recent years, in order to turbocharge the availability of on-campus accommodation, of looking for expressions of interest for projects with planning permission that were effectively shovel ready but had stalled for various reasons. We looked to reactivate those.”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Teachta. I thank the Deputy for his kind words and equally offer him comhghairdeas on his election. It is good to see him here representing Kildare North. With regard to the student accommodation in Maynooth University, at the outset I should say again that I fully appreciate the importance, and am committed to the provision, of high-quality, affordable, multioption student accommodation because we need to enhance the student experience. That is not just a woolly goal. It means cutting commuting times and allowing students to immerse themselves in college life thanks to the practical benefits of being close to the college. It allows for late-night tuition, involvement in societies and the fulfilment of what college is about.”
“Gabh mo leithscéal as Béarla a labhairt sa supplementary but I must do so for the sake of the accuracy of the reply. My Gaeilge is not quite as líofa as an Teachta Ó Snodaigh's, although I am ag foghlaim mo Ghaeilge arís gach lá. I completely agree with the Deputy about the 5,000 students coming through and the need for provision to match that at every level of the system. Given the increased interest agus an méid suime i measc páistí in oideachas through the medium of Gaeilge, it is something that I want to support. I will endeavour to do so, working with my colleague, an tAire, an Teachta McEntee. It is something that I suspect we will return to but I want to put on record my support for the principle and assure the Deputy that we are working towards that.”
“Suíonn oifigigh mo Roinne ar an gcoiste stiúrtha don pholasaí nua don oideachas trí mheán na Gaeilge lasmuigh den Ghaeltacht, i dteagmháil le hoifigigh ón Roinn Oideachais agus páirtithe leasmhara eile chun an Ghaeilge a chomhordú ar fud an chórais oideachais. Cé go bhfuil na hinstitiúidí ardoideachais neamhspleách, cuireann mo Roinn maoiniú €900,000 ar fáil gach bliain chun tacú-----”
“Ba chóir a thabhairt faoi deara, áfach, go bhfuil na hinstitiúidí ardoideachais neamhspleách ina gcuid straitéisí Gaeilge, lena n-airítear soláthar agus leathnú na gcúrsaí ollscoile a chuirtear ar fáil trí Ghaeilge. Ní choinníonn an tÚdarás um Ard-Oideachas taifead faoi láthair ar líon na mac léinn atá ag staidéar trí mheán na Gaeilge san ardoideachas. Mar sin féin, chuaigh oifigigh i mo Roinn i dteagmháil leis an Údarás um Ard-Oideachas agus dúirt sé go ndéanfar athbhreithniú ar na sonraí atá ar fáil do mhic léinn chun an t-eolas seo a bhailiú. Nuair a bheidh sé seo socraithe, scríobhfaidh m’oifig chuig an Teachta leis an eolas cuí ar lá eile.”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Teachta Ó Snodaigh agus leis an gCathaoirleach Gníomhach as ucht na ceiste seo. Freagróidh mé i nGaeilge í, ach ós rud é nach bhfuil mo chuid Gaeilge chomh láidir le Gaeilge an Teachta Ó Snodaigh, rud a bhfuilim ag obair go dian air chun feabhas a chur air, freagróidh mé na ceisteanna forlíontacha i mBéarla agus cuirfidh mé na freagraí ar aghaidh chuig an Teachta i nGaeilge ina dhiaidh sin. Tá ról tábhachtach ag ár gcóras ardoideachais maidir le tacú le húsáid na Gaeilge agus í a chur chun cinn. Tá freagracht reachtúil ar an Údarás um Ard-Oideachas a chinntiú go gcuireann institiúidí ardoideachais an teanga chun cinn agus go n-úsáideann siad í.”
“I will not repeat myself but all the measures I introduced in terms of flexibility, financial supports, non-traditional routes to education and geographically distributed access points, including those close to the learner's home, will contribute to and support that endeavour. I hope they are already assisting learners.”
“That is another new innovation; it was introduced in recent years as part of this Department. They are all opportunities to acknowledge full-time education is not an option for everybody and attempt to meet the learner on their own terms and to widen the pool of people availing of higher education.”
“I do not disagree with any of that. That is why my Department is rolling out multiple diverse and more flexible pathways and financial supports and also non-financial supports. I spoke about the variety of other grant aids and the maintenance grant and how various social protection payments are disregarded from those grants to ensure there is no loss of income for people who take up a place. In addition, on the non-financial aspect, I spoke about Springboard+, microcredentials and tertiary programmes which are all new innovations. A lot them did not exist a couple of years ago until the Department was created and began to examine these areas in more detail. There is also the part-time fee scheme, which allows fee supports under the Student Support Act to be available to students studying part time.”
“Last year, a new part-time fee scheme for specified undergraduate courses was launched. The aim is to provide additional flexibility of course provision to students who are socioeconomically disadvantaged and may not, due to their particular circumstances, be in a position to study full time. My Department is committed to examining diverse and flexible pathways. Some include non-traditional options such as Springboard+ programmes, microcredits where you can take mini courses and stack them together to achieve particular qualifications, and tertiary programmes where you can commence study in an FET college or institute closer to home with the option of progressing to a more traditional university setting in later years. These are all attempts to make it flexible and accommodate those who may struggle more to access traditional courses.”
“I confirm that carer’s allowance and carer’s benefit are both eligible social welfare payments for that special rate of maintenance grant. In addition to carer’s allowance, the carer’s support grant and the domiciliary care allowance are classified as income disregards. These payments are not included when calculating reckonable income for the purposes of student grant eligibility. The student assistance fund is also available to students experiencing exceptional financial need. It is designed to support students from socioeconomically disadvantaged backgrounds with ongoing needs for financial support and to provide emergency financial assistance for other students. My Department also recognises the need to offer support for more flexible forms of learning.”
“This is a very serious issue, which I take on board. It is one I am keen to progress. It is governed by the national access plan for higher education 2022-28 which sets out the ambition for an inclusive and diverse higher education sector. An important component of that plan is its recognition and naming of additional priority groups which are considered marginalised or disadvantaged. This includes students who are carers. Many supports are provided that seek to address the struggles and challenges that arise. The principal financial support is the student grant scheme provided by my Department. The special rate of maintenance grant is the highest rate of maintenance grant available and is targeted at students most in need.”
“It is often a "mom and pop" operation, a householder with a spare room or an elderly person who takes someone in during the college week. It arises in those types of situations. Of course, we need to protect students and all of those entering into arrangements but that must be balanced against the risk of an overly burdensome framework discouraging those people from participating, which would lead to a shortage of supply, which also would not be a good thing.”
“My daughter also commutes to college and I would prefer if she did not have to commute such a distance. I see at first hand that it can detract from quality of life. I have met student unions, most recently the union in Maynooth, and have heard that message conveyed. I completely get it and appreciate it. On the framework being voluntary rather than mandatory, there is always a risk at a time when we are trying to increase supply and where there have been traditional arrangements in respect of digs accommodation. It is not quite the same as a tenancy or private rental arrangement. There is a degree of informality about it. There is a balance to be struck if we are to avoid scaring potential digs providers out of the market.”
“We had a discussion about SUSI grants and different supports a few moments ago but these are additional supports for students in exceptional circumstances. I will engage further in my supplementary replies.”
“That licence agreement should be of assistance to those entering into such arrangements. That framework and licence agreement are on the Government website. I can send them to the Deputy if she does not have them but they are certainly available online. They have also been shared with all higher education institutions to allow them to be included on their respective student accommodation websites. We are trying to get that message and that sample agreement document out there. My Department also offers economic support for students experiencing financial difficulties. The student assistance fund can assist students in third level institutions who are experiencing exceptional financial need. That is available to students who are unable to meet costs associated with day-to-day participation, including the payment of rent and utility bills.”
“I am conscious of students having long commutes and how that can detract from college life. Ultimately, student accommodation is needed in all its forms. It is something I am sure we will return to in these debates and something I will be focusing on. The Deputy's question is on the need to safeguard students in digs accommodation and how that might be done. In line with the Housing for All objectives to increase protections in the private rental accommodation sector, in 2023 my Department published a voluntary regulatory framework and sample licence agreement for use by students and homeowners. This identified the key issues to consider when entering a licence agreement for digs accommodation. Previously, it was somewhat ad hoc and more of a private contractual relationship. I hope that guidance has been helpful.”
“I thank the Deputy. She mentioned the audiovisual room presentations and so forth. As I have told the House this morning, I am a new Minister and am reading into the brief. If Members know of groups or interested parties who wish to engage with me, they should feel free to direct them my way. I cannot guarantee I will meet everybody every time but I will do my best to meet with stakeholder groups and take their points on board. As the Deputy will know, digs accommodation is a long-established and traditional source of student accommodation that remains popular. I will continue to encourage and support it. We need as many rooms and accommodation options as possible. I am committed to making sure that the student experience and quality of student life remain as high as possible.”
“The institutions have put their hands up and said that because these are complex courses, a regulatory approval process must be undertaken and laboratory equipment and specialist facilities are required. It is not as easy as flicking a switch to turn it on, despite their best efforts. I will have to come back to the Deputy on the position regarding the pharmaceutical course but the working date for the veterinary course is September 2026. I will come back to the Deputy on the pharmaceutical course.”
“We are also on the theme of constructive collaboration. I do not know if the Deputy was in the Chamber for my interaction with Deputy Fitzmaurice but I fully agree with both Deputies. I am very keen to see these courses proceed. The provision on high-end professional qualifications in areas such as veterinary science and pharmaceuticals will be a hallmark of the technological universities. I am a big supporter of both. On the point regarding agriculture, I have visited both colleges. Since being appointed, I have been visiting as many as possible of the higher education institutions, stakeholders and facilities that are under my remit. I have visited both colleges and spoken to both management teams. The points the Deputy and Deputy Fitzmaurice have raised have very much been on the agenda. There has been slippage.”
“The Deputy is being a little bit elastic in his supplementary question. A question on Galway and Roscommon ETB has morphed to include pharmaceutical course provision at the Waterford campus of SETU. I will run with it, however.”
“Sometimes it is better to take it in chunks and in stages and to meet funding with ambition at a moment in time, address the immediate needs and then look to build on that. There are horses for courses, and different courses can be taken in different projects. SOLAS is engaging intensively with GRETB and, as I said, that process should progress next month.”
“It would be unhelpful for me to comment on the particular facility in terms of the details of it because I am not informed on it. It would be unfair to the project. However, I take the Deputy's point that phase 2 will now follow and will undoubtedly provide important services. I think her suggestion is that it would be better to do the whole thing at once, if I understand her correctly. That is a natural, intuitive argument to make. I have seen elsewhere that sometimes projects can be overly ambitious - I am not making any comment on this particular project but am speaking in a general sense - and have had a large scope and a large vision but ultimately have failed to get off the ground or failed to get to where they need to be.”
“Based on that, all ETBs were asked to refine their business case proposals to ensure they delivered on priority infrastructure requirements within available funding parameters. ETBs were invited to submit their proposals to SOLAS for evaluation. GRETB recently submitted its business case proposal, and that is the evaluation scheduled for the first week in April, so we are not too far off a milestone. The Minister of State, Deputy Harkin, is following this with great interest as well. That is where it is at, so it is effectively next week or next fortnight.”
“For the record, as regards Galway and Roscommon ETB, I think €1.03 million in funding just in the current year is already earmarked, even aside from this project. I am aware, however, that there was a request for the square footage to be reduced. I think there was an application for 25,000 sq. m. The college was invited to submit a revised business case. There was a meeting with SOLAS and Department officials with all 12 ETBs included in this package, including Galway and Roscommon ETB, in April and May 2024 and each ETB gave a presentation on its proposals. Following those meetings, each ETB, including Galway and Roscommon ETB, was provided with feedback on affordability, value for money and relevant regional and national FET policy objectives.”
“As regards the allocation of the overall funding, the overall approach the Deputy has asked me about, I know it is kind of a multipart question but, as regards the big line items, I hope my reply gives some information.”
“The strategic infrastructure upgrade fund was established to support smaller-scale investments in existing FET infrastructure. The technological sector strategic projects fund was put in place to provide additional capacity to strengthen the role of TUs as drivers of regional development. The higher education strategic infrastructure fund was open to all higher education institutions to cofund strategic projects to a maximum of 50% to deliver high-quality infrastructure for higher education institutions. Those capital investment programmes have supported an ambitious transformation agenda across both sectors and will help ensure that our campuses are flexible and future-proofed to meet the needs of our learners and teaching staff.”
“I understand GRETB has submitted its business case proposal to SOLAS for evaluation, which is currently targeted to take place in early April. Following evaluation, business cases that meet the evaluation criteria will advance to the next stage of development: pre-tender, project design, planning and procurement strategy. The funding envelope referred to by the Deputy relates to part of my Department's overall capital NDP allocation and provides for initial funding for the establishment of four new capital programmes. The FET college of the future major projects fund was established to address existing deficits in FET infrastructure and to support projects that drive reform and facilitate consolidation and integration of further education and training.”
“I am aware of the Deputy's interest, and indeed the interest of the Minister of State, Deputy Harkin, in all items on the west coast, and this development no less. I know the Deputy is well aware that Galway and Roscommon ETB is being supported by SOLAS in developing its preliminary business case proposal under the FET college of the future major projects fund. The proposal put forward by Galway and Roscommon ETB relates to the development of a new state-of-the-art FET campus on a site adjacent to the Mervue training facility. Due to the close proximity of this training centre to Atlantic Technological University, ATU, and the University of Galway, the new development proposes to strengthen tertiary provision in Galway city and in the wider region.”
“I have no reason to doubt that. It is probably helpful that they are being candid rather than just spinning a wheel for this September if they know at this stage they will not make that. They are being realistic about their target date but I will hold them to it.”
“I completely agree with the Deputy. My constituency is in neither catchment but is an agricultural constituency. It is an equine constituency. County Kildare is the home of the horses. I know many people who are interested in these courses and who tell me about the ongoing demand, the need for placements and the need for vets, including large animal vets. Small practice is its own area, of course, but we need people out on the farm and in large animal practice. As regards these programmes, with Kildalton SETU and Mountbellew in ATU, the Minister of State, Deputy Harkin, is a very strong supporter of the programme as well. We have met on it and discussed it, including on site in ATU when we both visited there recently. I give the Deputy my commitment that this will be followed through. The colleges are now saying September 2026.”
“The veterinary college in UCD has 90 students. That is inadequate. We need these additional 80 places but I am told by the colleges it will not be happening this year and they are saying it will be September 2026. I advise the Deputy of that.”
“We can train vets but they need to have their granted accreditation to go out into the field. That programme validation is important as well. The original estimated timeline for the ATU bachelor of veterinary medicine programme was estimated by the university to extend until September 2025. It recently released a statement that additional time would be necessary for them to validate the programme and to complete infrastructural development before the programme could open for application. I have visited ATU and discussed this with its executive. The Deputy's question is on ATU but I have also visited SETU and had the same conservation with its executive because I am very keen that the veterinary programme should occur quickly. We need it. A significant number of students are studying in Poland and outside the State.”
“The HEA recommended the proposed programmes in Atlantic Technological University, ATU, and South East Technological University, SETU, be advanced. It is expected these programmes will have an annual intake of 80 additional veterinary students, which nearly doubles the current intake. My predecessor, and the then Minister for agriculture, Deputy McConalogue, accepted that recommendation at the time and jointly announced the planned expansion at the ploughing championships last year. Until that point, UCD was the sole provider of veterinary education in the State. The delivery of a veterinary medicine programme is complex. It involves specialist academic staff, appropriate facilities, laboratory equipment, curriculum development and accreditation is key as well.”
“I thank the Deputy for his kinds words to me and to the Minister of State, Deputy Harkin. We both look forward to serving this Department as a team and bettering the sector. With regard to the Deputy's question, I am very interested in this area myself. I have made inquiries on it since I assumed the post. As the Deputy is probably aware, the HEA ran an expression of interest process in October 2022 to assess the capacity for expansion in key disciplines including veterinary medicine. Following the completion of the report and consultation with the Department of agriculture at the time, my Department directed the HEA to provide recommendations for the expansion of veterinary medicine education, having regard to competition, balanced regional provision and diversity of approaches in delivery.”
“There was a pay agreement entered into between Government and the Irish Congress of Trade Unions last year and in the Revised Estimates, an amount of €24.9 million was provided in the base for the higher education sector in anticipation of that pay deal being agreed. That is a slightly separate track. I appreciate there are competing priorities, as always. That highlights the difficulty of any report, be it Cassells or Funding the Future, in anticipating and planning for higher education growth and for core funding to increase because there are always other competing demands and there are emerging issues such as pay disputes and pay awards that can follow. There is then a question of whether that comes from core funding, whether it is additional funding or supplementary funding or how we make that jigsaw complete.”
“The Deputy mentioned more funding does not necessarily lead to greater outcomes. That is why it is all the more important it is delivered in a strategic way and, as I said in my first response, the Funding the Future framework does have that at its core - to align funding with enhanced performance, strategic reforms and quality of outcomes. I agree with the Deputy and that is why we are doing it in a targeted, measured, managed fashion. With regard to the pay awards, that is a slightly separate issue. Funding in respect of the public sector pay awards is separately provided for as part of the annual budgetary process.”
“There has been €164 million of investment to date, with a further €100 million to follow in this Government term. That is a programme for Government commitment. That is one I absolutely intend to honour and I will have those discussions as part of the budget Estimates process. Indeed, I would like the Deputy's support on that because I presume she will be participating in the relevant committee at the time. That is something that is very much a goal of this Government.”
“On the Deputy's comment about the two other Ministers since, there have been three Ministers in the past five years since this Department was created. The Tánaiste served for four of those years, the then Minister, Deputy O'Donovan, served for six months and I have been here for two months. Give us a chance and let us see where we are. I will certainly make my best efforts, as the Deputy acknowledged. The figure has been met. The gap of €307 million was identified and there was the Cassells report which I was there for. I met the author of it at the time. I contributed to that report as a then Opposition TD and the Funding the Future framework brings that up to date. That figure of €307 million has been identified but that has been incrementally brought down.”
“That additional €58.7 million will create space for higher education institutions to increase staffing and capacity, enable a greater alignment of provision with priority skills needs and facilitate the further development of tertiary programmes. With Government colleagues and elsewhere, I will continue to advocate for continued Exchequer investment in future Estimates processes to deliver on priority commitments, including priorities such as healthcare places, therapy places and tertiary programmes.”
“The enhanced higher education system performance to be delivered in return for increased investment is to be aligned to strategic priorities defined in that framework, alongside parallel efforts to address the cost of education as a barrier to participation, which we discussed in the last question. Over the three budgets since the publication of that strategy, an additional €164.4 million has been secured in Exchequer and employer funding, with a commitment to deliver a further €100 million by 2030 from the National Training Fund. The €164.4 million includes €58.7 million that was secured in the last budget - budget 2025 - for Funding the Future.”
“The Cassells report was published a number of years ago and that was superseded by the Funding the Future framework. That was published in May 2022 and outlines the vision for how higher education will be funded and how this will support students, employees and wider society. The framework identified a figure of €307 million as representing the quantum of increase in core funding required to deliver enhanced performance, strategic reforms and strengthened quality of outcomes. An additional €307 million was identified as optimal to progress the system. Over a number of years, additional core funding is being prioritised through the Estimates process in order to deliver on the increased level of funding identified in this framework and to provide enhanced system capacity to respond to national priorities.”
“All the other things we want to do in terms of education, housing and health are supported through that type of revenue because that is the economic model we support and subscribe to and that creates the resources. Private enterprise creates the public good, which can then be distributed to do all the things we want to do in this Chamber on a daily basis. I am a big supporter of that model.”
“I believe in the progressive policy "To each according to their needs", not "To each, everything", so we have to be prudent and progressive in how we manage the allocations. I am surprised that Deputy Boyd Barrett takes aim at the research and development tax credit. It is a really useful measure and that research and development support is exactly the kind of thing we should be encouraging. We all know about global headwinds, changing economic tides, trade tariffs and so forth. We have talent, research and development and innovation in this country and that is what has fuelled the enterprise model we have pursued since the sixties and seventies, which has successfully widened the public good by widening the resources available to the public good.”
“I thank the Deputies. Deputy Boyd Barrett should note that I am of course concerned about students dropping out. One or five is too many, never mind 5,000. I would like to understand the reasons. Some analysis would be helpful and I will look into this. I understand that meeting the cost of college has never been easy. I also understand that if the supports, which are abundant in the system and paid for by the State, are not reaching those most in need, something is going wrong. I am not convinced that flat abolition or having free frees, or whatever you want to call the arrangement, is the answer. This would represent a use of scarce resources that could perhaps be more targeted at those in need.”