Leslie Cree
North Down · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I also thank the Minister for her very full paper this afternoon. I was going to ask about cost, but that has been covered. Obviously, from the point of view of using signing and having available an Irish version and a British version, there could be complications.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Budget also anticipates 30 projects being taken forward that will involve cross-cutting reform and provide overarching governance. Can the Minister elaborate on that work and advise what savings are expected in the Budget year against the cost of £4·5 million?”
“<BR /> <BR />I will illustrate some more points about the current Budget. We know that, under the Budget exchange scheme, there are limits to what can be carried forward from the current year. Is it still 0·6% for resource DEL and 1·5% for capital DEL?”
“Again, I ask the Minister whether he can confirm that that is correct. <BR /> <BR />Finally, we need to be more definite about which projects we fund in the Budget. They need to be clear and time-bound. Some of the strategies that the Executive decided upon in 2007 have not yet been finalised.”
“The fact that spend is usually lower than anticipated has meant that overcommitment has been a feature until this current year. That is not good enough and would not be countenanced by the private sector.”
“We often hear Members complaining that those who query a Budget should suggest where any additional moneys should come from to fund other activities. That approach is greatly flawed and is an oversimplification of the matter. The issue is much more basic: a different approach is required.”
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“I believe that the reduction of tax credits could increase hardship and undermine the importance of making work pay. <BR /> <BR />I turn to some of the comments that we heard this evening. First, in bringing forward the motion, Mr Flanagan referred to the £105 million in reductions by 2019, which is an average of £918 per annum for each family. He supports the living wage, but said there should be no cuts to tax credits. He said that people in Northern Ireland are eight times more likely to be below the living wage than those in London. He welcomed the Ulster Unionist amendment. <BR /> <BR />In moving the amendment, Mr Roy Beggs referred to the Sinn Féin motion, which he said really only whinged and noted various things; no action was called for.”
“<BR /> <BR />We are told that approximately 20% of our population is living in relative poverty; therefore a reduction in tax credit will have a significant impact on their lives. Several Members touched on that. The Chancellor said that the new national living wage and the raising of the income tax threshold will offset the loss of tax credits, but there is little clarity on how the phasing of the changes will work out. <BR /> <BR />The Institute of Fiscal Studies advised in a recent assessment that, while there may be strong arguments for introducing the new living wage, it should not be considered a direct substitute for benefits and tax credits aimed at lower-income households. A higher living wage will certainly help those in employment, although there is some doubt about whether it will increase the UK's GDP.”
“I will be very quick, because I realise that I do not have much time. In his summer Budget on 8 July this year, the Chancellor announced a range of measures to be taken in order to achieve the £12 billion per annum reduction in UK benefit spend by 2019-2020. Included in the measures was a package of reforms to tax credits, including reducing entitlements for many households. <BR /> <BR />Tax credits are reserved matters, and changes could be introduced in Northern Ireland without the approval of the Assembly. Tax credits are calculated on the basis of hours and gross income. A household needs to work for a set number of hours in order to qualify for working tax credit, and their gross household income is then used to calculate how much tax credit a household is entitled to.”
“<BR /> <BR />It seems to me that action needs to be taken to control the numbers and costs involved, and, therefore, on behalf of the Ulster Unionist Party, I am satisfied to allow the Bill to proceed to the next stage.”
“There is a contrast between the salaries that can be commanded in the private sector and those in the public sector. My view is that this is a red herring, as individuals decide their career structure, and the qualifications and job specifications for special advisers set out the terms for the respective posts. <BR /> <BR />In 2011, the First Minister — I learn now that it was only the First Minister, though I have written down that it was the First Minister and deputy First Minister — increased the salaries of special advisers from £80,000 to £90,000 during a period of pay freeze, which is certainly not a very good example.”
“Wales has only eight SpAds — the same number as employed in OFMDFM — costing £58,000. Scotland has 14 SpAds, whose average earnings are £73,000. The question is this: why do we in Northern Ireland need so many special advisers? The eight SpAds in OFMDFM certainly have not improved the performance of that Department. <BR /> <BR />The third objective of the Bill is to set a salary scale and a cap to control the cost of special advisers. Mr Allister pointed out that this is necessary, and I believe that, too, particularly in these difficult financial times. Unilateral action was taken by the Minister to upgrade the salaries, but that should not be at the whim of a Minister. <BR /> <BR />Much has been made of the necessary qualifications of advisers. We discussed at the Committee what were the necessary qualifications, if any.”
“<BR /> <BR />Mr Allister referred to the Red Sky investigation. Following that, a special adviser was subject to a fact-finding independent investigation by the Department of Finance and Personnel. The Department recommended the instigation of a disciplinary investigation. As Mr Allister pointed out, the relevant Minister was able to override that, and I think that that was wrong. Special advisers are civil servants and, therefore, should be amenable to the existing disciplinary code. <BR /> <BR />We heard a lot about the number of special advisers, a subject fairly well trotted over. There are 19 in Northern Ireland, costing £2 million at the last count, which is an average salary of £103,500, as I have it, though I heard figures of up to £106,000 mentioned.”
“At this stage, the difficulty is always that nearly everything has been said, but, seeing that I have written it out, I will say it anyway. <BR /> <BR />Mr Allister's Bill is really straightforward and very simple, as referred to by many Members. There are three distinct clauses. The first deals with special advisers — this is my order of priority — and stipulates that these advisers should be subject to the processes and procedures of the disciplinary code that applies to the Civil Service in Northern Ireland. The second is remuneration, a subject well ventilated today. There is logic in having a cap and a scale, and, therefore, I do not see any difficulty with that. The third clause deals with the reduction of the number of advisers in the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister.”
“Thank you very much, Minister. I do not know whether you are aware of this, but the Social Security Agency had pay delegation as well, but it got the full terms of the settlement.”
“I believe that the issue remains in the Executive with no decision made. There is a high moral argument to resolve the outstanding matter without further delay. I trust that the House will support the motion and that the Executive will make a decision without any more delay. <BR /> <BR />The Sinn Féin amendment attempts to lay the blame on the British Government, but, as the posts were devolved and had pay delegation, I cannot see the logic in the amendment and therefore do not accept it.”
“However, whilst the judge found that there was no legal duty to pay, he had some sympathy with the moral issue, which was deemed to be for others to decide. The then Finance Minister, Mr Simon Hamilton, appeared to share that view and estimated that a figure of between £32·5 million and £50 million would need to be set aside. He stated that he would put a recommendation to Executive Ministers on that basis early last year and said:”
“These people are entitled to the extra pay that their colleagues enjoy. We know that £26 million had been ring-fenced for that purpose within the PSNI alone. Some will say that the money was reserved just in case the judgement went the other way, but clearly a case had been made on the quantum. <BR /> <BR />I do not wish to apportion blame to anyone, but the fact remains that there are concerns about why adequate business cases were not provided and why the unions did not press their respective employers to ensure that all their members received equal pay for equal work. Back in 1996, there was some assurance about rights for the members of staff involved from the then head of the Civil Service, but the court decided that that was not contractually binding.”
“I am pleased to move the motion today in yet another attempt to resolve the inequality and unfairness of the situation with the equal pay settlement for police support staff in the PSNI and those seconded from the former Northern Ireland Office, now the Department of Justice. The matter has been dragging on since 2009 and was the subject of a debate in the House in June 2013. Many questions about the equal pay issue have been asked in the House, and it was the subject of a County Court judgement on 7 March 2013. The judgement held that there had been pay delegation in these cases and that the staff involved fell outside the equal pay settlement as the Department of Finance and Personnel was not responsible for their pay. That is the legal position, but there remains the issue of fairness and, I believe, the moral position.”
“Would the Minister's efforts to address the funding difficulties be made much easier if many of his Executive colleagues did not adopt a head-in-the-sand attitude, particularly in their approach to finance, including welfare reform? Does he now regret not voting for the current year's Budget?”
“Will you please clarify whether you are for it or against it?”
“although you had already agreed that, in fact, the fair employment issue was one for OFMDFM, and I agree with you there. However, in April, you told my colleague, Mrs Overend, here beside me, that you had written to OFMDFM on the matter.”
“I thank the Minister for that short response. He knows that this matter has been going on for some time. In fact, on 25 May 2015, Minister, you told me:”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. I wonder what lessons have been learned from this calamity. What steps have been taken to ensure that it cannot happen again?”
“Certainly, the world will be a worse place now that he has gone. I add my condolences to those sent to his wife and family circle.”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. I wish to be associated with previous comments. I did not bring a poem, but it was good to hear the deputy First Minister reading that poem very well. The poem is interesting, as is much of Brian Friel's work. He really was a playwright extraordinaire. Whilst I do not think that I ever met him, his work is certainly highly respected and enjoyed at home and internationally. He was a remarkable man, and his passing leaves us all the shorter of that sort of people, such as Seamus Heaney, who has been mentioned. We are lucky to have had people like that, and I hope that we can still produce people like them in the future. <BR /> <BR />Brian had many interesting twists in his nature. I read in the paper that he was very into punctuality, and, apparently, his funeral yesterday was virtually timed to a T.”
“So, there are only two days, which is not a lot of time. We need something to happen with the Executive to get this matter moving. I support the motion.”
“Sport is a global language that embraces all socio-economic backgrounds, ages, genders, colours and creeds. Hosting the event in 2021 would certainly put Northern Ireland on the world map. In this time of unease and uncertainty, it would bring back some faith in this place if the youth games organisers were given positive funding news from Stormont to proceed with their plans. With only one of the bidders — Botswana — remaining, the Executive need urgently to prioritise their decision to enable Northern Ireland to be in with a fair chance of winning the bid to host the games in 2021. <BR /> <BR />Finally, I refer to the Culture Minister's letter to the Acting First Minister/Minister of Finance and Personnel, dated 25 September, just last week. It states:”
“<BR /> <BR />In light of Northern Ireland's recent successes in attracting major sporting events, such as the World Police and Fire Games, the Giro d'Italia and the Carl Frampton boxing tournament, it would be a great shame if the Executive could not muster £3·861 million to fund the Commonwealth Youth Games in 2021, given the potential return in investment that it would produce for the Northern Ireland economy and right across the financial spectrum. <BR /> <BR />Locally, the youth games attract around 1,000 young athletes, whose ages range between 14 and 18, and they compete against 70 other nations. In the bigger scheme of things, the potential footfall means that £3·8 million seems a very small price to pay over a five-year spending plan. <BR /> <BR />I urge all Members to think outside the box in this case.”
“I hope that that remains the case and that the Minister will find funding for it. To date, the Executive have not called a meeting to discuss the issue, which is required to free up funding to enable the planning of the event to move forward. <BR /> <BR />Last year, at the Commonwealth Youth Games in Glasgow, Northern Ireland athletes proved their competitiveness and succeeded in bringing home some 12 medals, which was mentioned by others, ranking Northern Ireland fifteenth of 71 on the medals table.”
“<BR /> <BR />Hosting the games would, as other Members said, cost around £3·75 million. I notice that it is £3·861 million in the Minister's letter of last week. As recently as August this year, the Executive had not met to discuss the event, even though the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure and the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment had met Northern Ireland Commonwealth Games Council officials. The Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure stated last year that her Department:”
“I am pleased to stand before the House as a Committee member and spokesman for the Ulster Unionist Party to discuss this important issue today. It is with great annoyance that we have to bring the debate to the Assembly under such negative circumstances, considering that, in November 2014 — only nine months ago — Northern Ireland's potential involvement in hosting the 2021 Commonwealth Youth Games was being hailed as one of the good news stories for sport. <BR /> <BR />My, my, what a difference several months can make, and guess what the problem is yet again? The dysfunctional Stormont Executive and the trailing indecision of the DUP and Sinn Féin to agree a Budget mean that the in principle Stormont backing indicated to the Northern Ireland Commonwealth Games Council last year is becoming less certain.”
“It is a pity that that is the case. I thought that, even out of general interest, the Minister would be talking to his colleagues. Reading the 'Belfast Telegraph' today will give an example. I will ask the Minister — although I probably know what the answer is going to be — is he satisfied that enough has been done to apply sentences that deter offenders engaged in those crimes, which have such a traumatic effect on the victims?”
“In relation to the Foras na Gaeilge project report, will the Minister give more detail on the staffing and costs of the six lead organisations in the seven locations?”
“I am sorry; I could not hear the Minister. She was speaking away from the microphone. In the same area, what progress has been made on that part of the canal, and is there some idea of the cost of the greenway?”
“The junior Ministers were tasked with bringing forward a strategy to help the voluntary and community sector. Is the Minister aware of the status of that work, and was he involved in it?”
“I thank the Minister for her full response. Is she not concerned that the design group that was selected had a direct connection to the contractors that were appointed to carry out the work at Casement?”
“If we are seriously talking about moving away from this, we need to be very clear about what measures we propose to remove and ensure that the alternatives that we propose are capable of standing up to robust scrutiny. <BR /> <BR />We support the motion and point out the dangers of deviating from common practice in the rest of the UK.”
“We also believe that reform and re-evaluation should be constantly ongoing in virtually every walk of life so that lessons can be learned and improvements made. Therefore, we would not be opposed to looking at alternatives that might deliver a more accurate or equitable outcome. However, we must take care to ensure that any changes we might propose are not only an improvement on what is there already but that they hold up to rigorous academic scrutiny. <BR /> <BR />The Northern Ireland multiple deprivation measures 2010 are based on the same methodology developed by the social disadvantage research centre at the University of Oxford and used in the surveys of 2001 and 2005, as well as for multiple deprivation measures in England, Scotland and Wales.”
“The other 10 that did see an improvement are still in the bottom 20, which tells a tale of how effective the Executive have been in alleviating deprivation. <BR /> <BR />The situation is even worse for urban super output areas. Of the bottom 20 urban areas in 2010, 19 were in Belfast and one was in Londonderry. Fifteen of the areas that were in the bottom 20 in 2005 were still there in 2010. From the NISRA statistics, it would appear that the Executive's ability to alleviate urban deprivation is as ineffective in urban areas as it is in rural areas. <BR /> <BR />What alternatives exist to the measures that would be more accurate? We recognise that the indicators are five years old and are based on information that is even older.”
“Although special output areas were designed to have special population sizes of approximately 2,000 to aid comparison across Northern Ireland, due to the smaller geographical size and similar socio-economic characteristics of the population in urban areas compared with rural areas, small area concentrations of deprivation are more readily identifiable in urban than rural areas. <BR /> <BR />In the geographically larger rural areas, the socio-economic characteristics of the population vary to a great extent. Clusters of deprived households or concentrations of deprivation are, therefore, identified less often in rural special output areas. When one looks at the most deprived rural super output areas and compares the difference between 2005 and 2010, one sees that 10 of the areas have either worsened or seen a very minor improvement.”
“The deprivation measures will identify areas with large concentrations of deprived people, but those deprived people living in areas where only a small proportion of the population is deprived will be excluded from a solely spatially based policy. <BR /> <BR />What is wrong with the measures in their operation in rural areas for measuring poverty and deprivation? In the past, NISRA acknowledged and addressed concerns from representatives from the rural community in the 2005 and 2010 research.”
“<BR /> <BR />Many of them appear to be obvious ways to measure deprivation, such as adults and children in income support, jobseeker's allowance households, incapacity benefit claimants, and the proportion of working-age adults aged 22 to 59 with no or low levels of qualifications. Information was aggregated and broken down into small geographical areas known as output areas and special output areas. <BR /> <BR />There are 5,022 output areas, each with a population of approximately 350 people. There are 890 special output areas, each with a population of approximately 2,000. Approximately one third of the special output areas were classified as rural, with the other two thirds classified as urban. It is important to remember that not all deprived people live in deprived areas.”
“Several key questions are raised by the motion. First of all, what exactly are the current multiple deprivation indicators? Secondly, what is wrong with them in their operation in rural areas for measuring poverty and deprivation? Thirdly, what alternatives to them exist that would be more accurate? <BR /> <BR />The Northern Ireland multiple deprivation measures 2010 are made up of a total of 52 indicators relating mostly to the period 2007 to 2009. They are grouped into seven types or domains of deprivation and relate to income; employment; health; education, skills and training; proximity to services; living environment and crime and disorder.”
“That being so, I wonder why they object to the Ulster Unionist Party going into opposition.”
“<BR /> <BR />I commend the report. It is a great pity that it was not undertaken before now. The Executive need to up their game to ensure that Northern Ireland is prepared to succeed in a difficult global economy and to operate in a very changing world.”
“<BR /> <BR />The current fiasco of the Stormont House Agreement sends the wrong message to investors and undermines business confidence in Northern Ireland. It was intended that the legislation would be implemented by April 2017. Sinn Féin's stalling on the agreement has the potential to destroy years of hard work and will damage our economy. <BR /> <BR />Access to finance has been a problem for businesses in Northern Ireland. Banking is not a devolved matter, and bank lending has been a major difficulty for businesses here. I am aware that the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment has created some financial facilities to assist SMEs over the years. That is to be commended, but more needs to be done. The report recognises this and has undertaken significant surveys and taken much evidence on the subject.”
“I recognise the uncertainty about the United Kingdom's membership of the European Union and its potential for the economy. If we get the right deal, fine, if not, we must be competitive in the changed circumstances. Either way, we need the power to decide corporation tax. The Executive have to address the issue and consider the impact on the Northern Ireland economy, should the United Kingdom exit the European Union. The report highlights this issue, and the work has to start without further delay. There will, of course, be a cost to the block grant, but that can be phased in after a date has been set. Companies wishing to expand their businesses will base decisions on the planned future tax rates. There is always a planning period ahead of investments by local or foreign companies.”
“We need to correct this matter urgently if we are serious about developing our economy and creating a future for our young people.”
“That illustrates how important the tax was to foreign direct investors and, indeed, to indigenous businesses. We recognised that fact as important then and have been pushing for the power to administer corporation tax in Northern Ireland since then. <BR /> <BR />At Stormont House last year, we had agreement to have the tax devolved. Sinn Féin agreed to it and supported the principle completely. Unfortunately, following pressure from its colleagues in the Republic of Ireland, it reneged on the whole deal on welfare reform and on the devolution of corporation tax. That is myopic and is a lost opportunity, especially as the Westminster Government, in honouring their part of the agreement, have arranged for the necessary legislation to be put in place.”
“<BR /> <BR />I also support the vision of a strategy that is driven by a regional economic development framework, with integrated strategies for the economy and employment — Members referred to that — education and skills, infrastructure, society and community. I believe that that is the way to go. <BR /> <BR />The Ulster Unionist Party was first to push for the devolution of corporation tax. In my time on the Committee for Enterprise, Trade and Investment, which started in 2007 — I was very young then — we were very aware of the Republic of Ireland's success in attracting business because of a low rate of corporation tax. Even during the bailout, following the Irish Government's financial crash, they were determined to hold on to a low tax regime at all costs.”
“This has been debated over the years, but the prevailing view was that a short Programme for Government was the right thing to do. <BR /> <BR />No business can work successfully without a strategic plan, which has to cover the short- and medium-term. The plan must also be reviewed and updated through each Programme for Government, and the strategy must be fully integrated. It is essential that the Executive change their current, comparably passive approach to one that is proactive and has a can-do attitude to developing Northern Ireland's economy and infrastructure. That will be a new and more challenging issue for the Executive, but it must happen. For too long, the Executive have been slow to react and shown little original thinking or innovation.”
“I support the Committee's report into growing the economy and creating jobs with lower corporation tax. Clearly, a lot of work has gone into the Committee's inquiry. I note its key recommendation:”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I would love to discuss further with him the 36th (Ulster) Division, the 16th (Irish) Division or indeed the 10th (Irish) Division. It is unfair to compare the people who were in command there with the people in Westminster. That is an unfair comparison, so I will leave that thought with you. <BR /> <BR />The Member referred to the International Monetary Fund document. Obviously he has read all of it, so he will have read the bit that I referred to earlier, which talks about debt being a burden on the economy that reduces both its investment potential and its growth prospects. That is the other side of the coin. Before I sit down, I ask Mr Ó Muilleoir what tax increases he would advocate at this time.”
“Being an optimist, I sincerely hope that that will be the case.”
“We find ourselves in a very tight fiscal framework, facing a fairly bleak prospect of further cuts in the immediate future. It is essential that priorities are clearly identified and that all wasteful expenditure is eliminated. We await a further comprehensive spending review, and we must plan strategically to ensure that our growth is protected. The Budget does not look very far ahead and, understandably, attempts to deal with the rest of this year. <BR /> <BR />The current mandate for the Assembly ends in a few months, but I believe that solid cross-party planning for the future should begin now so that we may move ahead. We do not wish to repeat this current shambles, where money is wasted in the payment of fines and the Assembly is held in ridicule for failure to operate as a cohesive unit. Hopefully, we have learned from this fiasco.”