Raymond McCartney
Foyle · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“Comhghairdeas leis an Aire. I congratulate the Minister on what is, obviously, a very challenging portfolio. I welcome the statement. I welcome the speed with which you have met the unions and, hopefully, share your optimism that you have put on the table an offer that will see an end to the industrial action.”
“This is a classic case of, sometimes, a decision being made that, people think, is the right thing to do at one time that only pushes another challenge down the road. We need a commitment from the Minister to ensure that we have a mechanism in place to safeguard us against that.”
“The Minister has alluded to the fact that the Assembly is about to dissolve, and we will all go to the doors in the coming weeks. I commend the Minister. Certainly, when we go to the doors, many issues will be raised, and it will be good for us, as Assembly Members, to be able to say to people, "No water tax".”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as na freagraí sin. I thank the Minister for his answers. We talked about the cost of division, but I ask him to talk about the reputational damage to the Assembly that has come about as a result of some disgraceful decisions that were blatantly discriminatory, sectarian in the truest sense of the word and pa…”
“That aside, it is fair to say that, over a long number of years, the expansion of the campus at Magee has been very much part of the politics of the north-west; indeed, Stephen Farry, in fairness, talked about it.”
“The university, in presenting that, gave all the pluses around that and said clearly that one of the things, particularly at postgraduate entry in medical schools and in other courses, from experiences elsewhere, is the idea of what they call the 20:20 rule — people stay within 20 miles of where they were educated for 20 years.”
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“I suppose that now when the Minister has been asked to reflect on the point of order, he will reflect on whether he actually agrees with what I said despite the fact that he said that I misquoted him. It is very simple. People can call it a fig leaf. They can call it whatever they want. We will not sign up to any body that does not have the same accountability mechanisms as the PSNI. We will not allow the failings of the past to be repeated and revisited here. That is our job. That is our task. That is what we are elected to do. We make no apology for that, nor will we allow inferences or snide remarks to deflect us from what we do. We are here to represent the people who put us here. There will be proper accountability for all policing structures in the North while Sinn Féin has the powers to do anything about it.”
“Perhaps Hansard will record what was said and also what was said when I asked that question during last week's Question Time. I asked the Minister whether the NCA was subject to the same accountability mechanisms as the PSNI and he told me that it was not. Maybe, sometimes, when people speak, the metamorphosis comes out and you hear it in a different way. That is what I heard this afternoon and it is what I heard last week. That is what I am saying. If the Minister wants to contradict that, he can. Are those who are operating in the field, in operations and carrying out investigations, subject to the exact same accountability mechanisms as all PSNI officers? Is it or is it not the case? Silence, as Father Ted once said —”
“No. I have already said that I have five minutes and I will not get any extra time. It is limited as it is. That, to us, is the core matter. Indeed, even when the Minister was speaking, I think that he accepted that the standards of accountability have made the PSNI a police service that now enjoys the support of people in the North of Ireland. He accepts that the NCA will not be subject to the same level of accountability.”
“<BR /> <BR />I noticed that, when Tom Elliott was speaking, he made some reference to the sort of idea that because it is called "National", the opposition that is coming from Sinn Féin and indeed, as he said, the SDLP was for that result, but I think that he forgot to accept that, if the secret is in the title, it is also in the title of the Assembly that we are in. This is a legislative Assembly. We make legislation for the people whom we represent. That is what we will do. We will make legislation that is relevant to the experience of the people whom we represent. Other people can ignore that. Other people can look to other places to get their lead. We will not. We will be consistent in everything that we do. I notice that Stewart —”
“At the core of the debate is accountability, and it is very interesting that most of the Members who spoke today ignored it or tried to suggest that the demand for accountability was not realistic. I think that the Minister said that it was not realistic. It is realistic, and the reason is that, as we know from history and now from current practice, one of the fundamental building blocks of the positive changes made to policing in order to ensure that we did not repeat the mistakes of the past was proper and effective accountability.”
“Gerry Kelly did not apologise to you, perhaps because he did not have the chance to do so, but I noticed that you drew no inference from the fact that Alex Attwood was not here, nor did you say that he had apologised to you. I find you very defensive on this issue. At the core —”
“I have five minutes, and I am not giving way.”
“Beidh mé ag labhairt in aghaidh an rúin agus ag tabhairt tacaíochta don leasú. I support the amendment and opposed the motion. Let me say first that Gerry Kelly was called away on an urgent matter. I notice that others who made contributions also left the Chamber, but the Minister did not draw any inference from the fact that Alex Attwood was not here.”
“Indeed, there are other suggestions that people's lives were manipulated in a particular way, and all of that must come out as well. Being mindful that the abuse that was visited upon the people in Kincora has to be at the core of the inquiry, there are other implications that will not do a service unless they are all resolved. That is why this motion is a good one. <BR /> <BR />The truth around Kincora has to be exposed, but that truth will have many, many layers, and unless we get the proper vehicle to do it, we will be back saying that there is a need for another inquiry into Kincora Boys' Home.”
“At its core, yes, it has to be about the abuse that was carried out, but there are important questions to be asked about who knew, when they knew, who should have been responsible for ensuring that it did not continue and who failed in their responsibilities at the time, because it is on public record that the RUC said that an appropriate and thorough investigation was carried out and that there were no issues apart from the fact that three people were charged. We have to try to resolve that. <BR /> <BR />In this inquiry, many allegations have been made about who was entrapped and what responsibilities they had in wider society, and there may be implications around that because there may be suggestions that other people's lives could have been disrupted.”
“Whereas the 1921 Act is not the perfect vehicle to get round the Official Secrets Act, we saw, in some other instances, particularly the Saville inquiry, how at least some of the rush to try to prevent evidence coming forward was tackled. That is why I make the point about the Hillsborough panel. Despite the cover-up that resulted from Hillsborough, there was no role for the British secret services, which have a long history of not only not wanting to come into the public domain in these type of cases but of suppressing and destroying evidence. Alex Attwood spoke about the most recent example where evidence has been destroyed as an inquiry was just about to take place. <BR /> <BR />I also agreed with Mike Nesbitt when he spoke about what the inquiry should do.”
“From reading some of the documentation around the Woolf inquiry, it seems that she will have access to papers, but there will be no power to compel witnesses. Most people know that, in this type of situation, open proceedings and cross-examination provides better details and a better insight into what has happened. I know that there is reference to the fact that it will be similar to the Hillsborough panel, which I believe carried out an excellent piece of work. It had full access to papers and resulted in bringing the next stage of justice for the Hillsborough victims —”
“There is absolutely no doubt that there is a wide acceptance that what happened in Kincora Boys' Home should be the subject of scrutiny. I do not think that anyone has anything but the belief that there was a cover-up on a massive scale, and that is one of the reasons why I have some concern around how this will unfold. I do not think that anyone can doubt the integrity of or the need for the inquiry that has been laid out by Fiona Woolf, but I think that the powers that she has might be limited and, in that case, we will not get to the full truth around these matters. <BR /> <BR />In my opinion, the best vehicle to carry this forward would have been an inquiry under the 1921 Act because that has the power to compel not only papers but witnesses.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Beidh mé ag tabhairt tacaíochta don rún seo sa Tionól inniu. I also will be speaking in support of the motion. Indeed, I welcome the motion. I think that, whatever we say or do or whatever results as this inquiry is taken forward, we should always be very mindful that at the core of this are the young people who were abused. I think that it was referred to today that the needs of the victims and survivors should be very much on our minds.”
“In relation to amendment No 2 and the points that the Minister made, during the previous stage, we were satisfied that there was a statutory provision that would prevent interference in the classification of cases. Your amendment does not add to that. I think that Alban Maginness referred to this as a belt and braces exercise, so, in some sense, it is not necessary. Do you agree with that, given what we have heard again this morning?”
“It is in terms of clarity. Tom Elliott's amendment only makes it clear that there is statutory provision that prohibits a Minister from interfering in the classification of cases. It only makes it clear.”
“On the issue of flexibility, would a reserve list not satisfy the need for a smooth transition if someone were to leave for health or career reasons?”
“I hope that I will not add to the headline of saying that it is a power grab. The issue was raised at Committee Stage, and Tom Elliott and Alban Maginness made the point at Consideration Stage, and there is a concern. I am sure, however, that the Minister will want to be protected from the suggestion that perhaps a Minister could interfere to deny a particular category. <BR /> <BR />Alban Maginness referred to inquests, whereby a Minister could say that there will be no legal aid for all inquests. We feel that that would be inappropriate but that the statutory provision laid out in the legislation would protect us from that situation and prevent any future Minister from allowing that situation to occur. We await the Minister's contribution.”
“<BR /> <BR />Similarly, with amendment No 2, at Consideration Stage, Alban Maginness raised a number of concerns about the power of direction and the Minister's ability to provide direction — Tom Elliott described it this morning as a power grab — which will go across a category of cases that we feel should be protected and not be in the gift of the Minister to change. The statutory provision in the legislation is clear that the Minister cannot change the categories, so unless we hear a different explanation this morning, we are wholly satisfied.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. I will take the amendments as they are listed. We are sympathetic to the intent of the amendments, and, throughout Committee Stage, the issue of how the process would go forward and how the person would be selected was raised. At Consideration Stage, Tom Elliott outlined that, and when the Minister responded, we were satisfied that the competition would be based on merit and be open and fair. The appointment process as laid out covers that, but, as outlined by the Chair, we are interested to hear what the Minister says about Tom Elliott's points this morning. We are satisfied with the explanation given at Consideration Stage, but we are open to Tom Elliott's points this morning.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an fhreagra sin. I thank the Minister for his answers to date. Even today, he said nothing to explain why he believes that all members of the NCA should not be subject to the exact same accountability mechanisms as all members of the PSNI.”
“However, the rest of us cannot sit back and say that that did not come about as a consequence of wars that perhaps we supported and should not have.”
“I am trying very hard to not politicise this debate, because the focus should be on the persecution of the Christians involved, but it is wrong to say that the information was incorrect. The inquiry was very clear that the information was made-up to ensure that there would be military intervention. So, whatever we do and whatever actions we take, we have to think through the consequences. <BR /> <BR />In that region, many actions are taken by Governments that have very narrow self-interests and do not think about the consequences. That is why I am saying very clearly that the persecution of these people is wrong and that the people who are responsible for that persecution are the people who are carrying it out.”
“<BR /> <BR />In ensuring that we bring an end to that type of persecution, we also have to send a very clear message that narrow self-interest, military intervention and the making up of excuses for invading other countries only opens up Pandora's box. Jim Wells said that this particular community, particularly in Iraq, was not being persecuted. The consequence of military action is that it is. So, people need to have very clear views on why they are taking particular actions.”
“<BR /> <BR />It is important that we send a clear message that sometimes Governments, based on narrow self-interest, intervene and try to use the rationale that they are doing so to resolve a particular set of issues. In many ways, such action makes the space for other people to use it as an excuse for persecution. The situation in Syria and Iraq was predicted by many people because of the folly of military intervention. However, it is important that we send out a very clear message that those who are responsible for the persecution of the Christians in Syria and Iraq and many others who have other religious beliefs in the Middle East and elsewhere are the people who carry out that persecution.”
“Many commentators are saying that, rather than resolving the issues in the Middle East and further afield, that will only serve to compound them. <BR /> <BR />It is very important that we state that everyone should have the right to live their lives and be free to choose who, how and when they worship. To ensure that that message is as clear and strong as it can and should be, we need to see that as a universal principle. Everyone has the right to worship free from persecution. The motion will send a very clear signal from here that we, in our own place, will not allow any persecution of anyone because of their particular religious beliefs.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Príomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Cuirim fáilte roimh an díospóireacht seo inniu, agus tá mé iontach sásta tacaíocht Shinn Féin a thabhairt don rún. We welcome the motion, support it and understand very well its sentiment. <BR /> <BR />From the outset, it must be said that no one should be persecuted because of their religious beliefs. This debate is about the persecution of Christian communities in Syria and Iraq. Jim Wells laid out in very tragic detail the extent and nature of that persecution. The international community, and this is part of the tone of the motion, has a responsibility to do all in its power, and we include ourselves in that, to bring that type of persecution to an end. The irony, and Jim Wells touched on this, is that, as we speak, yet another chapter of military intervention is beginning.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagra. I thank the Minister for that answer. I welcome the fact that he talks about equality and mutual respect being the core principles and that we have to do away with prejudice and intolerance. Does the Minister agree that that strategy is severely undermined, if not weakened, by the fact that there continues to be a nonsensical ban on gay men giving blood?”
“However, we know that, historically, we have been left behind, so our job is to make sure that we catch up in the future.”
“Certainly, there has to be honesty at all times, but it can be easy to say what will suffer, which leads to the most negative reaction. That is what you got from people in Derry, Minister. They said very clearly, "This is not what we want, and we will bring it to your door." They said that because all that we do should be based on evidence, and I think that the business case and the figures that I presented provide that evidence. I will not go into the figures for the economic impact of universities on cities as I accept that you are well acquainted with those —”
“Then came the need for a business case to be delivered. As Pat Ramsey said, we have all received a copy of the outline business case. We know that the Minister has also a received a copy and that the timeline is that he should have the full business case by October. <BR /> <BR />In August, when the Minister announced that the expansion of Magee was on the shelf, it came, as Pat said, as a bit of a shock to all of us because, until then, the commentary had always been positive. I refer to the previous debate. There is no doubt that, in the heat of argument or debate, it is easy to say, "If my Department's budget is being cut, this is what will go to the wall or on the shelf." I think that we have to avoid that.”
“Maeve McLaughlin outlined some of the meetings that have taken place, and I have no doubt that the Minister has shown support and, in many ways, played a vital role. From a Derry perspective, we felt that the case was made in the most rigorous way possible. At one or two meetings, the Minister said that the absence of a business case was not exactly showing us in the best light. Perhaps because there was just an outline business plan, or a sense of what we needed, that was not hitting the mark with the Department, and the Minister said that very clearly. <BR /> <BR />Perhaps the fact that it was in the One Plan provided the strategic imperative for us to take it forward. In recent times, however, the strategy board, and the University of Ulster, which accepted the expansion, played a crucial role.”
“When people look at unemployment figures in Derry, I do not think that it can escape any of us, including the Minister, that the lack of university places has an impact, as do other issues. Collective responsibility, as much as this should be a collective responsibility, should feature in that as well.”
“I will say it again: Dublin has 53,000 students; Belfast has 32,000; Cork has 19,000; Galway has 17,000; Limerick has 12,000; Coleraine has 8,000; and Derry has 4,000. When the Minister is addressing this type of issue or reflecting on this debate, I think that it is worth him asking himself why he thinks that has been the case and continues to be. Given the economic impact that a university has on the other places that I have named, why does Derry not have a higher proportion of students? That, in many ways, would have addressed many of the problems that Derry has faced down through the years. <BR /> <BR />The expansion of the university will be and should be a key element in addressing the many, many issues of regional imbalance and regional disadvantage, which has always featured in the Programme for Government.”
“— Mr Swann's presence as well, no doubt supporting the expansion of the university. That is maybe for another day. <BR /> <BR />In fairness to the Minister, he has met on a number of occasions delegations from the city and from the wider interest. I think that he will acknowledge how important an issue this is, particularly for people who represent the constituency of Foyle and Derry city. It has been on the political agenda for a long, long time. <BR /> <BR />The last time that we debated this, I reflected on the numbers of students in other cities throughout Ireland. Indeed, this week, it was particularly interesting during the Scottish debate to hear of the impact of universities, particularly on the economy of Scotland.”
“No. I heard you say that you are the only unionist here, but I want to acknowledge —”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh an díospóireacht seo inniu. I welcome the fact that we are once more debating this issue. I suppose that it is welcome, because sometimes Adjournment debates can be very constituency-based. I welcome the fact that Ross Hussey is here and representing, if you like, the wider Ulster Unionist interest and the wider north-west.”
“— but your comments may have put doubts into people's minds about whether a post in Altnagelvin is a good post to apply for. I think that that is the mistake that you have made.”
“I have no issue with recruiting the best. However, when people hear about £32 million bonuses on top of good wages, that is where the issue is, and perhaps you have to explain that. The run to microphones to close things down rather than to say "I am going to tackle other inefficiencies" — that is the point I am making, and that is the point that has to be taken up. Pat Ramsey has shown you the Journal. It may be unintended —”
“You will come to realise, like Michael McGimpsey, that it was a mistake to use the radiotherapy unit in that way. <BR /> <BR />Maeve McLaughlin has said on a number of occasions in the Assembly and in the local media that we have not heard any interrogation of the fact that £32 million in bonuses is being paid to consultants. Many, many people out there are asking, "Why is it that, when it comes to this type of debate, it is automatically the radiotherapy unit, or the cardiac unit, or hips or all the good things that the health service does, but we never ever seem to talk about the fact that £32 million is paid out in bonuses? Why not seek some way to address that as we go forward?"”
“It featured greatly in the election campaign, and all the people who stood for election in the area were in favour of the radiotherapy unit. Indeed, the First Minister and the deputy First Minister publicly stated that, if they got the mandate, one of the first things that they would do would be to ensure that the decision was reversed. Credit to the Minister, he delivered on that promise. <BR /> <BR />However, therein lies the problem for the Minister. The radiotherapy unit is on schedule, it is near completion, the equipment has been ordered and recruitment is going to take place. It is not tenable to have a scenario where the unit is built and not staffed. To use it as one of the areas of contention in the particular stresses and strains that you find your Department under — and you are entitled to fight your corner — was not proper.”
“I have limited time and have already given way. <BR /> <BR />That is what we have to watch, because even in the debate on this issue we have heard people in the DUP talk about "the aura of a crisis". So, we have to define the problem. <BR /> <BR />Jo-Anne Dobson gave a particular commentary about the radiotherapy unit in Derry, which was challenged by Gregory Campbell. In my opinion, Michael McGimpsey made a mistake. He may have had particular pressures and he may have had particular concerns about his budget and how it was being deployed, but he picked on something because he felt it was the most vulnerable and would get the most reaction. However, he got the wrong reaction. There was total unanimity, particularly in the north-west and Derry.”
“That is where good management, good leadership and good direction can come in by sometimes bringing efficiencies into the system and alleviating some of the issues that we are addressing. <BR /> <BR />Too often, and this can be a comfortable way of doing things, the situation is labelled as a "crisis". "Crisis" is the first word that comes to people's lips, which creates a reaction in itself and sometimes we lose sight of the debate.”
“I did not say that to challenge anyone. Some Members spoke about particular aspects of the debate and did not centre on Altnagelvin. I am not saying that anyone is questioning the importance of Altnagelvin hospital if that is the point that the Member is trying to make. <BR /> <BR />I made the point about Christie O'Donnell, and we should wish him well. The Speaker will know the benefits of Altnagelvin hospital because that is where he is currently housed, and I am sure that he is getting the best of treatment. <BR /> <BR />I do not think that any of us would argue, particularly in terms of health and the health budget, that there are not always pressures and strains on the system.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Príomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Beidh mé ag labhairt i bhfabhar an rúin seo. I support the motion. Given the tone and the way it has been presented, most speakers have accepted the crucial importance of Altnagelvin hospital to Derry and the greater north-west region. People have rightly praised the staff and the dedicated professionals who staff that hospital and other aspects of the health service, not just in the north-west but across the North. That is welcome. Christie O'Donnell must be the most recognised taxi man in Derry because of his situation and how it was remedied.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an fhreagra sin. I thank the Minister for her answer and welcome her continuing commitment to and delivery for Derry in relation to those projects. Will the Minister give me an outline of the current status of the development of sports facilities in the north-west? In particular, will she welcome the fact that planning permission is now being sought for the development of the Brandywell stadium?”
“Alban Maginness made a point in relation to the class of cases. You are stating clearly that for any class of case to be changed — judicial reviews were mentioned, along with Coroners' Courts — that would have to come through the Assembly for approval.”
“In the interests of clarity, is the Minister saying that there can be an appointment external to the Civil Service by an open competition?”
“When it comes to policy and so on, the Minister is guided by legislation and other regulation, so we are satisfied with that. What we need to do — I think that there is provision for this — is ensure that whatever guidance or direction comes from the Department and the Minister is open to consultation with and scrutiny by the Committee. Should we feel that there is any encroachment into an area of policy that the Department is trying to skew in a particular way — I am not suggesting that there would be — there are mechanisms in place to protect from that. <BR /> <BR />We will listen to how the Minister addresses those issues, but, in the main, we were satisfied enough with the Bill after scrutinising it. We are certainly willing to hear what the Minister has to say.”
“I suppose that you could say that it was not as explicit as you and others, including us, would perhaps have liked, but there have obviously been situations in which someone external was recruited to a position. The fact that such individuals had to be covered by being members of the Civil Service has been brought through. I think that, again, it is a matter of listening to the Minister and satisfying ourselves. If we then feel that the Minister is saying that it will only be internal, your amendments will better come into play. <BR /> <BR />Similarly, concerns about clauses 3 and 4 were laid out this morning. We have to ensure the independence of decision-making in relation to legal aid and the granting of legal aid. It is very clear that the Minister has no role whatsoever in individual cases, and quite rightly.”