Raymond McCartney
Foyle · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“Comhghairdeas leis an Aire. I congratulate the Minister on what is, obviously, a very challenging portfolio. I welcome the statement. I welcome the speed with which you have met the unions and, hopefully, share your optimism that you have put on the table an offer that will see an end to the industrial action.”
“This is a classic case of, sometimes, a decision being made that, people think, is the right thing to do at one time that only pushes another challenge down the road. We need a commitment from the Minister to ensure that we have a mechanism in place to safeguard us against that.”
“The Minister has alluded to the fact that the Assembly is about to dissolve, and we will all go to the doors in the coming weeks. I commend the Minister. Certainly, when we go to the doors, many issues will be raised, and it will be good for us, as Assembly Members, to be able to say to people, "No water tax".”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as na freagraí sin. I thank the Minister for his answers. We talked about the cost of division, but I ask him to talk about the reputational damage to the Assembly that has come about as a result of some disgraceful decisions that were blatantly discriminatory, sectarian in the truest sense of the word and pa…”
“That aside, it is fair to say that, over a long number of years, the expansion of the campus at Magee has been very much part of the politics of the north-west; indeed, Stephen Farry, in fairness, talked about it.”
“The university, in presenting that, gave all the pluses around that and said clearly that one of the things, particularly at postgraduate entry in medical schools and in other courses, from experiences elsewhere, is the idea of what they call the 20:20 rule — people stay within 20 miles of where they were educated for 20 years.”
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“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as na freagraí go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for his answers. In his answer on bringing about the scheme, he talked about the disadvantage that newly qualified teachers have. Does he agree that the scheme is something like social clauses on capital build, where we insist on advantage being built in to ensure that the long-term unemployed get good, proper advancement as well?”
“I think that he took it in the spirit in which we engaged and the spirit in which we said that. Similarly, the Committee staff took us through the Committee Stage and provided us with excellent research. I think that we are all in a better place to examine how, based on A Fresh Start, the Procedures Committee should progress the issue around the need or an aspiration for opposition. Once the opportunity is presented, we will see how many people take it up.”
“It was pointed out to us that we have one system, consociationalism, that was designed for a particular purpose and that, when you try to move away from that or fuse it with another system, you could create Frankenstein's monster. We do not want to be part of any such process. We have said in debates that the sponsor of the Bill may be well intentioned, but, sometimes, as the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. That is why we were cautious and stood opposed. I do not think that some of those elements around cross-community weighted majorities will feature as we go forward. <BR /> <BR />In conclusion, I thank John McCallister for the way that he conducted this at all stages. In fairness, when we said that we would not support this, there was no political point-scoring.”
“Standing Orders can be drawn up only by going through the Committee on Procedures. That is the convention, the process and the legislation, so it is now up to the Procedures Committee to provide Standing Orders on how we take forward A Fresh Start. Indeed, if your Bill is passed, it will be up to the Procedures Committee to shape whatever comes out of it and what you are trying to bring about. Throughout the process, I have been trying to make the point — I hope, successfully — that we feel that A Fresh Start provided the model for opposition, and that is why we stood in opposition to each and every clause. <BR /> <BR />As we said to the sponsor of the Bill, the evidence from one of the academics was very striking to us as a party.”
“Since Second Stage, we have been very clear that, when you say that, it gives rise to the Assembly being able to do it without legislation. A Fresh Start, in my opinion, provides the model and the context and is perhaps the right fit for what should proceed. That is why we said to John McCallister, being consistent in our approach, that if you sign up to the Fresh Start Agreement you are signing up that you can do it without legislation. If you come in here and start to have legislation, you might say that we might have the spectacle of someone signing up to something and then not doing what they said they were going to do. At least we are consistent from that point of view.”
“All I am trying to point out, perhaps not very successfully, is that people have a perception that democracy equals opposition, and that is not necessarily true. The opposition model can be abused or used by Governments to steamroller through legislation, saying, "Sure you have an opposition and all the rights", which are sometimes not there. <BR /> <BR />The main point I am trying to make is that, in the context of the Assembly as it now sits, Fresh Start gives hope and aspiration to those who want to go into opposition. John McCallister has presented his Bill very well. He consulted and discussed with various parties, but most of the clauses state that Standing Orders must do something.”
“The proposition was made that maybe this was the time to do away with the nonsense that an opposition is effectively cut out by the Government: it is opposition in name but with not many speaking rights, and it is not this great paragon of virtue. <BR /> <BR />The pundits said that it was similar to Westminster, where the Opposition are there in name, but the Government, if they have the majority, steamroller through legislation. Indeed, one said that this might be the time to give the Committees in Leinster House some substance by following the model of the Assembly in the North. We found that out during Committee Stage —”
“Lo and behold, when you go to Westminster, you find that the Chairs of most scrutiny Committees are from the same party as the Government. Sometimes this model of opposition is portrayed as the paragon of virtue, and, when you examine it, that is very much not the case. <BR /> <BR />Over the weekend, because of the nature and length of the count in the Twenty-six Counties election, the pundits in the studios got plenty of time to talk about things that were not relevant to the election process. It was interesting in a discussion yesterday that the net result of the outcome of the election was that a lot of smaller parties and independents did well.”
“As a matter of fact, most opposition models come about by convention, changing Standing Orders and a democracy maturing to the stage at which it can be trusted not to have one idea dominating another. <BR /> <BR />Another illuminating fact that emerged during Committee Stage was that, when the Research and Information Service examined 21 parliamentary systems, it found only four in which the chair of the Public Accounts Committee was in the opposition. So, there are myths. <BR /> <BR />I have been on the Assembly and Executive Review Committee for a long time. At one time, perhaps in my naivety, I thought that it would be good convention, good practice and a better way to bring about democratic accountability to have the Chairs of the scrutiny Committees coming from parties that did not have a Minister.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I think that Mr Lunn described Sinn Féin opposing all the clauses at Second Stage as a spectacle. That is one description of it, but our position was clear from the outset, and we told the Bill's sponsor about it at the first opportunity. The Fresh Start Agreement created the basis for an opposition without having to legislate; it could be done administratively and by convention. <BR /> <BR />One of the most illuminating parts of Committee Stage was that, despite the myth that people propagate about opposition, as if it is somewhere enshrined by legislation in the great annals of democracy, we very much find that not to be the case.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an fhreagra sin. I thank the Minister for her answer and welcome the consultation and the interest. As we take this forward, will there be some sort of regional programme, particularly for GAA and rugby? In light of the 2023 World Cup, will there be some sort of joint ventures to ensure that we can bring that to Ireland?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Like the Chair, we welcome the use of the LCM in this instance because of the work of the commission. I want to place on record our support for the work that the commission does. It has been useful in allowing people an avenue to explore whether there were miscarriages of justice. I think that there was a legislative oversight that has revealed that there is a gap in its ability to get relevant documentation to support a case. Therefore, we will support the motion.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagraí go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for his answers. There seems to be a lack of clarity about the savings that will be made when the courthouses close. Some people say that, although there will be a saving, the Department will have to pay some money towards what is called "warm storage". Will he outline the exact amount of money that will be saved each year in each courthouse?”
“The last amendment that we have tabled in the group is amendment No 119 to clause 110. In response to the comments made by the Minister and, indeed, by the Chair of the Committee, we accept that the Committee's opposition to clause 110 no longer necessitates amendment No 119, which we will not move.”
“In those cases, when a person has been convicted of fraud, we need some protection. We are not saying that it should be automatic, because we do not believe in debarring somebody simply because of a conviction. If, however, the fraud is directly related to the person concerned, there should be some measure to assess the suitability of the person acting as attorney.”
“<BR /> <BR />Amendment No 117 is about preventing an attorney from giving himself or herself a gift from an estate or carrying out work. In fairness, the Minister accepted that there could be a perceived conflict of interest. That is what we are trying to address. I accept that, as the Minister said, if the attorney happened to be a relative, that in itself is a complication. Perhaps we could tighten that at Further Consideration Stage, but we note the Minister's comments. <BR /> <BR />I note the Minister's comments, and the Chair speaking as an individual and on behalf of his party, on amendment No 118. We tabled that amendment in case the appointment of an attorney was contested by other family members, or that the attorney later had a power but that the other person was incapable of changing or altering the decision.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I will speak on the amendments tabled in our names in group 3. We will support the amendments tabled by the Minister and the Committee amendments as outlined by the Chair. <BR /> <BR />A petition of concern has been lodged on amendment No 116. The Minister outlined two reasons why he opposed the amendment. The second reason is to do with a process that is taking place in DFP, and we want to allow that to go forward. The amendment has its origins in concerns raised by the Children's Commissioner and the Children's Law Centre. The issue might come back at Further Consideration Stage or at some other time. There are 16- and 17-year olds who should be allowed to make those types of decisions for themselves, but, given what the Minister said about DFP, we will not move the amendment today.”
“I am not saying that this is one of those issues that comes at you out of the blue, but there was certainly not much discussion. Following what Dolores Kelly said the last time, there is an acceptance that this is an issue that we need to examine and something that we need to do. The Minister's intent, today, is to have a look at this. New laws have been passed elsewhere. We have to look at the impact of those and at whether they are doing what they were designed to do. That should be in the in tray for the new Minister after the election, come May. We will wait to hear what Paul Frew has to say in relation to the amendment's intention. He outlined it last week at the Committee, but we will hear his response to the Minister.”
“Amendment No 57 relates to the blue-light services. All of us are supportive; indeed, we all would say that people in public service, particularly those in the blue-light services, deserve protection from attack. The refinement of the amendment is welcome. There was a discussion, and I think the Health Minister's letter and, indeed, issues from the Department and the PPS showed us that we need to be careful that we do not over-define it and that it does not creep into other aspects that are not necessary. Again, I welcome the Minister's comments. He is right: there are laws and sentencing guidelines around aggravation, but I think everybody is broadly supportive of the terms of this. <BR /> <BR />The last amendment is amendment No 56.”
“The Minister accepts the amendments and has agreed to take on work to deal with other aspects of this as we go forward. That is important because the many people who are subjected to this feel vulnerable and isolated. Then, there are the people who use it for the purposes of control, bullying and coercion, and they need a very clear signal that that will not be tolerated. The Chair mentioned the intervention by Nexus and referred to people in legal circles, including those dealing particularly with young people, who work on this and have other impacts. We have seen in recent media reports that young people who have been subjected to this have gone on to self-harm, and, worse than that, some have taken their own life, so the amendments are to be welcomed.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I will speak briefly on each of the six amendments in group 4. The Minister and, indeed, the Chair outlined the animal cruelty issues and explained that amendment No 52 is just a tightening up and a coming together of the two Departments to ensure that a gap in legislation about which there is public concern is filled. We are fairly supportive of that. <BR /> <BR />The Chair correctly outlined the broad view of the Committee on amendment Nos 53, 54 and 55. The Chair mentioned the conference in W5, which is what opened up this area to all of us. We had been aware of pieces of it, but the conference not only brought everything together but showed us that there were gaps in legislation on issues to do with the Internet, particularly on what people call "revenge porn".”
“We have had this discussion on numerous occasions, because when people ask the question: "What is Britain's national interest?" they are told, "We can't tell you, and why we cannot tell you is because it is in Britain's national interest to not tell you." We cannot have that circular argument going on. This is why, if the ombudsman is quoted, as he has been quoted by you today, as saying that it has never been used and does not need to be used, then, in our opinion, it should be legislated for. Go raibh míle maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle.”
“If you have to have regard to that, it is difficult for you to sit and say that a judge in a court would not interpret that in a way that would instruct the ombudsman not to carry out an investigation because of British national security interests. We cannot have a situation, whether it pertains to death in custody or anything else, in which anyone would have the power to say to anyone that they should not be investigating in those circumstances.”
“I was not giving the Reservoirs Act as it is legislated. I said that you can understand a case being made why, if you were asking someone to do something, "shall" would enter into it literally. Neither you nor I, nor anybody in the Assembly, can ever say that we are going to second-guess what a judge would say. You may have a view what guidance means. I might have a view, but I have absolutely no doubt that, if guidance were to be given to the ombudsman that says, "You should not carry out this investigation", you cannot say that that is not guidance. I could give guidance to you that says, "You should not cross the road without looking left and right". That is a clear instruction.”
“I am not over the detail of the Reservoirs Act, but you can understand that if, when drawing a map, someone asks you not to include a particular installation. You can see a logic to that. <BR /> <BR />I am making the point that, in relation to this issue, the British Secretary of State would have the power, perhaps, to go to court outside the purpose of this legislation. However, we are legislating, therefore we have the right to question whether or not this is necessary. We are told that it is not, but, if guidance was offered to the ombudsman that said, "Do not investigate this because there are British national security interests involved", and that went to court and a judge read that "you must have regard to", to me there is only one interpretation of what that regard would be, namely that you do not carry out that investigation.”
“None of us can second-guess what would happen if that was taken to court. I could make the case that, if guidance was issued not to carry out a particular investigation, the ombudsman said no and the Secretary of State challenged that and took it to court, a judge would be in a good and proper position to say, "You must have regard". That you must have regard is clear.”
“Interestingly, when opposition was initially raised in Committee — by Alban Maginness, I think — we were struck by the fact that Tom McGonigle said that it was not an issue and had not been an issue. Therefore, you are saying that, if it has not been an issue, why does it have to be put into legislation? The Chair mentioned this when he spoke, and I do not want to misquote Mr McGonigle, but he certainly gave us the impression that he was more or less saying that, even if he was given guidance, it would have no substance or bearing and nor would it prevent him from carrying out an investigation. <BR /> <BR />The Bill states:”
“It is interesting that, when we have questioned the ombudsman and prison officials about this in the past, they have always found it very difficult to spell out exactly what the powers are and what they will do.”
“It would say very clearly that you are legislating that, if a person in post is convicted, it has to be something that would prevent that person from doing the job, rather than a blanket approach. If you are convicted of an offence that has no relevance to the job that you do and does not impede or in any way call into question your ability to do that job, that should not be a reason to lose your job. I accept that the Minister says that that is not the intention of the way that this is framed, but I just think that this not only makes it tighter but sends a clear message on desistance. <BR /> <BR />Clause 38 is on guidance on matters connected with national security, as it is written here.”
“Perhaps that is something that we can clear up at Further Consideration Stage. Before you can indict someone, you have to have the power to call them forward. You cannot convict someone of not assisting if you have not got the power to bring them forward in the first instance. That is the lead-in from amendment No 47 to amendment No 48. That is why we feel that it is necessary. <BR /> <BR />I want to turn to amendment No 80 before I go to clause 38. I know that the Minister has said that amendment No 80 is not necessary. I will say to him what I said in the earlier part of the debate: if it is not necessary, why stand in its way? It would send a clear message on the wider departmental policy on desistance.”
“I accept that you cannot compel anyone to cooperate, but you can compel them to be part of the investigation process. Say, for talk's sake, it is a prison officer. If a prison officer refuses and is fined, I am sure that there will be disciplinary procedures that might affect his or her career. At least there is some sort of incentive or weight put on them so that they do not just feel, "I do not want to cooperate, so I do not have to do it". That is why this is important as we go forward. The power may never have to be used, but, if you are carrying out an investigation and there are people who do not want to come forward, it is good that you can say, "I want you to come forward. I need you to answer these questions, and, if you do not, you might be charged and subsequently fined, and it will have an impact on your career".”
“If someone is of a mind that they are not going to cooperate, that is fine. I have heard Alban Maginness talk previously about normative behaviour; in other words, a person who does not have to cooperate now might not come forward. They might feel that they have information and, if they are asked to come forward, they will come forward, but, if they are not asked, they might just sit back and allow things to happen. If there are 12 people and only six come forward, the ombudsman will invite the other six to come forward, but they may say, "We do not have to, so we are not going to do it". If you compel them, you at least create a situation that allows him to come to conclusions, and we have heard before about conspiracies of silence.”
“It will be interesting to hear the Minister reflect on those issues. For me, this is the opportunity to give the ombudsman the capability to carry out investigations, to deal with complaints and to ensure that there are good accountability mechanisms in our prisons. <BR /> <BR />I turn to the idea of compelling someone to give evidence. I heard Tom McGonigle's evidence. He said that there were no issues, and that is fine; I would not question that in any way. It is a good state of affairs when people are cooperating with all investigations. However, the powers of investigation will widen, even under the Minister's terms, and none of us can predict the future. That is why it is best that we provide for the ombudsman to have that power to use if he or she sees fit. All other similar types of ombudsmen in other situations —”
“<BR /> <BR />A good way of showing why it is necessary for the ombudsman to have this power is the recent fire in Erne House. There would have been no investigation carried out, had the Criminal Justice Inspection not done an unannounced inspection. Obviously, the investigation is ongoing, but the report will highlight other issues relating to the current state of relationships in Maghaberry. The Department did not see fit to call an investigation; nor did the Prison Service or the management of Maghaberry. In my opinion, that is where this power would be of great significance, and it is not just about the ability to call an investigation. Many issues will come into the public domain as a result of the independent investigation, and we would have been better served if the ombudsman had had the power to do that.”
“The incumbent was in front of the Committee and talked about it being satisfactory in his experience, but I think that when we frame legislation we should not do so on the basis of the experience of a particular person at a particular time. We have to look to the future. That is why I believe that some of the amendments that we propose will tighten the office and make it better as we take it forward. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 38 is obviously similar to amendment Nos 37 and 45 tabled by the Minister. I believe — this is where there is a slight parting of the ways — that the ombudsman should have the power to initiate their own investigations. I do not think that we should limit the scope of that power. The Minister, in amendment No 45, says that the matter should be within the previous 12 months; I do not see why it should be time-bound.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. First, I welcome the fact, as I think everybody does, that the Minister has taken the opportunity to put the Prison Ombudsman on a statutory footing. We all recall that, in times past, a Prisoner Ombudsman left his post, and one of the reasons he cited for no longer being able to continue was the fact that it was not on a statutory footing, which, he felt, limited his ability to carry out a particular piece of work. The two subsequent ombudsmen have both reiterated that the office should be put on a statutory basis. I do not think that anybody will question the integrity of any of the people who have carried out the role.”
“That is the precise point: if there is no prospect of it happening, why oppose the amendment?”
“As a general principle, when any Minister, be they liberal or otherwise, says that something is not necessary, there is no cost to put it into legislation. That is the general principle. The Minister might be right, but if you write it into legislation very clearly that this cannot be outsourced, it is clear and unequivocal.”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an fhreagra sin. I thank the Minister for his frank answer and welcome his continuing support for the expansion of Magee. As we take the business case forward, can he indicate what the timeline will be? Can a centre of excellence, perhaps based at the Magee campus, assist in the process of ensuring its expansion?”
“Thank you for that point. I suppose that the discussion about the petition of concern is for the next stage. <BR /> <BR />I want to finish on this point: if, on behalf of Sinn Féin, I was making the case that this idea was like "Frankenstein's monster", I would understand why you said that. However, we did not say that; it was said by someone who had cast a cold eye on the Bill. They warned you, and cautioned us, not to do this because it tries to blend two different models, and one model, the one that we have here, was set up for particular reasons. Those reasons still exist, and any tampering with that model could lead to a slide. That is why we oppose this aspect of the Bill. We fully support opposition as designated by the Fresh Start Agreement.”
“It is the same with weighted majorities. <BR /> <BR />On the issue of — I know that this is for the next set of amendments — petitions of concern and an Ad Hoc Committee, there was an Ad Hoc Committee on welfare reform. It was very clearly down on one particular position, but then there was a vote and the vote overturned the working out of the Committee. So the idea that you have a Committee that might scrutinise something, but if it comes down to weighted majorities, sometimes you can have the wrong result because people vote along party lines, political lines and ideological lines. That is why you have a weighted majority and the mechanisms to ensure that minorities are protected. In my opinion, anything that undermines that principle is —”
“We are not going to allow this House to slip or sleepwalk into the idea of majority rule being better or Westminster being better so let us try to creep towards that. That is not going to happen. <BR /> <BR />Jim Allister obviously misquoted Caitríona Ruane when he tried to give the idea that she said that what you are proposing is somehow "Frankenstein's monster". That came from one of the academics who very clearly said that, in his opinion, grafting one system onto the other is "Frankenstein's monster". I think that he has good credibility to say that. You can see the desire, and you can see where people are trying to do it with community designation, that it is well intentioned, but the reason why it is in is firmly rooted in the reason why the type of democratic institution that we have here is necessary.”
“<BR /> <BR />Jim Allister — I notice that he is not in his place — gave us a lecture about going into a classroom full of 12-year-olds who would tell you, "Here are the basic tenets of democracy: a democratic institution has to have the following or else they will not recognise it as a democratic institution." I do not know if that is true, but you could ask the same 12-year-olds this: is it right to have a one-party state; is it right to have gerrymandering; and is it right to skew elections and not give people equal franchise? I think that all those 12-year-olds would say no. That is one of the reasons why we have this model, why we are very guarded and why, in all our discussions here, at Committee and in private conversations with you, we have always pointed that out.”
“On the idea of opposition equalling perfection, equalling all our ills being cured, I think that, if you went to England, for example, people there would say the exact same thing: all that lot up there are useless. Sometimes, they will not make the distinction between people in Government and people in opposition. As a matter of fact, you have heard people talk time and again about the change in Government — Tweedledum to Tweedledee. So, again, this idea of the perfection of opposition can be overstated.”
“The way John McCallister has come at this has been informative. From his discussions with the Committee and with our party when we met him a number of times, nobody doubts the genuineness of what he is trying to do. However, when he talked today about other things, there was this idea that, if we had an opposition, all else would flow. I do not think that that is the case: that, all of a sudden, whatever criticisms people have of the Assembly, whether it is dysfunctional or whether it does not work as well as it should, will be addressed. I think that Danny Kennedy was right when he pointed out that there are big differences across the Executive. It is right that those should come out and that, every now and again, there should be blocks to progress because there is an ideological difference.”
“From 1998 up to a few years ago, there was not much talk about opposition. You often wondered and asked yourself why that was case, and I think that people have to be honest about that.”
“<BR /> <BR />Many Members have talked about the need for an opposition. In fairness to Alex Attwood, he talked about the SDLP talking about it as far back as 2012, I think he said. However, there was not much talk about it in 1998.”
“I have heard, maybe here in the Chamber but certainly in the public airwaves, the idea that it is somehow not democratic that the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee is from a party that is in the Executive and that the Chair must be a Member from a non-government party or, indeed, an opposition party. When the academics presented to the Committee, they took 21 examples from across the world. Personally, I was waiting for them to say it was 21 out of 21, because, let us face it, everybody told us that that the perfect model was that the PAC Chair had to be in opposition. It was actually the opposite; it was only three out of 21. The idea that there is a perfect model that we have to follow blindly is, in my opinion, wrong. This Assembly came out of a particular set of circumstances, therefore we have to be mindful of that.”
“I understand the point that the Member is making, but what I am trying to say is that Fresh Start and most of the clauses in your Bill, particularly those dealing with this aspect of it, make a demand that this has to go through procedures and Standing Orders, so it shows that the Assembly can affirm it. That public debate, which obviously was part of the Committee Stage, can also take place in the Procedures Committee and allow us to do that. <BR /> <BR />I want to reflect back, because I think that we have to ask the question. We have certainly asked ourselves whether there is a need for legislation to bring about an opposition. I think that the answer is very clearly no. This can be done, and we have seen many models in many other different places.”
“One of the common features, which I accept was a bit of a surprise to me, is that a lot of oppositional models are not brought about by primary legislation. Indeed, the academic and research papers that we got at Committee Stage said that there is nearly an absence of legislation in setting up oppositional models in many parliamentary systems across the world. The route to it, in many ways, is by convention or, if you like, political maturity or political demand. I see Fresh Start as the way of doing that. Sometimes, when people speak about oppositional models, they feel that there is a perfect model. Sometimes they look to Westminster and try to create the image that somehow that is locked down in legislation and immutable.”