Raymond McCartney
Foyle · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“Comhghairdeas leis an Aire. I congratulate the Minister on what is, obviously, a very challenging portfolio. I welcome the statement. I welcome the speed with which you have met the unions and, hopefully, share your optimism that you have put on the table an offer that will see an end to the industrial action.”
“This is a classic case of, sometimes, a decision being made that, people think, is the right thing to do at one time that only pushes another challenge down the road. We need a commitment from the Minister to ensure that we have a mechanism in place to safeguard us against that.”
“The Minister has alluded to the fact that the Assembly is about to dissolve, and we will all go to the doors in the coming weeks. I commend the Minister. Certainly, when we go to the doors, many issues will be raised, and it will be good for us, as Assembly Members, to be able to say to people, "No water tax".”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as na freagraí sin. I thank the Minister for his answers. We talked about the cost of division, but I ask him to talk about the reputational damage to the Assembly that has come about as a result of some disgraceful decisions that were blatantly discriminatory, sectarian in the truest sense of the word and pa…”
“That aside, it is fair to say that, over a long number of years, the expansion of the campus at Magee has been very much part of the politics of the north-west; indeed, Stephen Farry, in fairness, talked about it.”
“The university, in presenting that, gave all the pluses around that and said clearly that one of the things, particularly at postgraduate entry in medical schools and in other courses, from experiences elsewhere, is the idea of what they call the 20:20 rule — people stay within 20 miles of where they were educated for 20 years.”
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“I think that we all accept that it will be a number of weeks before this Bill, which tries to set up an opposition, can get assent, so it not as if we need this Bill through to ensure that we have opposition next Monday or Tuesday. We are not getting that. Sometimes, the criticism of the Fresh Start is nearly because people are lukewarm about it, and that is fine. I think that most Members are suggesting that the need for an opposition is for the next mandate, and I have absolutely no doubt that it should be in place for that. <BR /> <BR />One thing that I suppose is common to a number of pieces of legislation is that, when you bring it into Committee Stage, you get a better sense of what people are trying to achieve. Other people, particularly experts and academics, come to the table and start to talk about this.”
“I would rather be here to defend a consistent position than one of inconsistency, because I can well imagine that if we had stood in opposition to all clauses except clause 20, then people would have been pointing out that inconsistency. So, that is the basis on which we have done this. <BR /> <BR />There is no doubt that the case for an opposition has been accepted. That is why it has taken root in the Fresh Start Agreement. Members have talked about the slowness of bringing those proposals to the Assembly, and, yesterday, the motion was tabled, and I suppose that we are seeing some movement on that. Bear in mind that two other aspects of the Fresh Start Agreement on changing the architecture of the Assembly have already been put in place. Those are the Departments Bill and the Assembly Members (Reduction of Numbers) Bill.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. <BR /> <BR />I would like to put our position on the Bill on the record. It is founded on the fact that the Fresh Start Agreement of last November made provision for an official opposition to be put in place by administrative means and not requiring primary legislation because it is an excepted matter. We feel that that position is the way that can deliver the need and demand for opposition in the Assembly. <BR /> <BR />Today, as part of the commentary, we were accused of being inconsistent over a number of clauses. The clause that Members talked about most was clause 20, and that somehow because we might be in favour of it, that we were being inconsistent or, perhaps, that we should be voting for it.”
“That is not the point. We are talking about the contradiction.”
“First, on the particular clauses that we oppose, I have already said that we are opposing all the clauses to be consistent in our approach. On contradictions, it is interesting that you use the 1916 rising, which was asserted in arms, because the SDLP is on record as saying that there is absolutely no justification for the use of arms. Where is the contradiction there?”
“Just to inform the Member, we are standing in opposition to all the clauses. It is not that we are singling out one over another.”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an fhreagra sin. I thank the Minister for her answer and for visiting the site. Having seen that work, does she have an update on progress on phase 3 and the sort of capital investment that will be required for it?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an fhreagra sin. I thank the Minister for that comprehensive answer. In relation to additional resources, will the Minister examine using the plastic bag levy that he has used for environmental projects in the past for preventative measures in the future?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as na freagraí sin. Mr Diver outlined the concern that there is, particularly in Derry, but it is important that, whatever the outcome of the assessment is, we do not turn our courthouses into fortresses. The idea of them being open, and people seeing them as being open, should not be reversed.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an fhreagra sin. I thank the Minister for a very comprehensive and good overview of the skills barometer. He identified that, perhaps in a strange way, the report found an oversupply and an undersupply of skills. Will he outline the steps that the Department is taking to address both scenarios?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a freagraí go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for her answer and the announcement that she made yesterday. My question is perhaps a bit out of date. It is welcome news. Perhaps, she heard the commentary this morning. I heard Cathal Ó hOisín and the Chair, Trevor Clarke, being asked about it. The date is very important. If I may, I will offer the Minister this advice: when she has the opportunity, she should give people a precise date; otherwise, all the sceptics will forever question it. It is a very welcome decision. Does she have any certainty on a starting date?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a ráiteas. I thank the Minister for bringing the statement to the Assembly and for his answers to date. I will take up one of the points made by the Chair of the Justice Committee. A sizeable amount of funding has been provided to the task force, and the Minister outlined the detail of some of the work that it will do. Does the Minister believe that a focus should be placed on preventative measures to make smuggling a bit more difficult for people who use the border as a way of escaping excise duties and for fuel laundering?”
“The Committee will continue its work to monitor the implementation of the suggested actions to ensure that tackling retail and business crime continues to be a priority. We want again to thank the Minister for his response, Members for their contributions, and the stakeholders and those who attended and took the time to provide evidence and have taken a keen interest in this. <BR />I hope that they see this report and our work in some way or measure as an acknowledgement of the great work and the great evidence that they provided to us. On behalf of the Committee, I commend the motion to the Assembly.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Minister talked about the three issues that were raised to the Committee; he gave a very detailed response, and that is to be welcomed. The fact that Assistant Chief Constable Noble has been put in as the head will give some confidence to the business community. Hopefully, we can build on that. He also talked about the need for reporting and the role of the PCSPs in ensuring confidence because the two can go hand in hand. <BR /> <BR />Partnership has been an important theme during our discussion, and the Committee encourages the PSNI, business and retail stakeholders, the councils and the policing and community safety partnerships to work together to develop and implement local and strategic solutions to tackle all forms of business crime.”
“<BR /> <BR />Paul Frew highlighted the definition of business crime and the impact of theft on small, independent businesses. He highlighted a number of initiatives in his area whereby traders feel that they are taking the initiative on ensuring that crime is reported and that they are seen to be doing something about it. That assists the PSNI in its efforts. <BR /> <BR />Sammy Douglas focused on the hospitality industry and described it as one of the largest employers in the North that creates a large number of jobs. His focus is sometimes on the difference between licences and how they can be abused or circumvented or circumnavigated, for want of better words, and how that has an impact, particularly on those who pay the higher fee for licences and undermines their trade.”
“He said that some of the crimes are not reported and that, if a crime is not reported, it is perhaps not treated as seriously as it should be. He also talked about sentencing practices, which is an issue that has been brought before the Committee. <BR /> <BR />Stewart Dickson again talked about the need for people to report crimes, as there is an acceptance that people sometimes do not report and that it has an impact. He outlined correctly the positive work that has been carried out by the PSNI, the Department and, in particular, the PCSPs, in trying to improve outcomes, particularly by getting people to report. With reporting, there should be detection. He outlined the cost to small businesses and said that a £1,000 theft can be a massive amount of money if you are running a very small business.”
“Patsy McGlone made two very telling points. The first was that this cannot be defined or assessed on monetary cost alone and that the cost to jobs must be considered because the more money that is lost, the more impact there will be on small businesses in particular. Secondly, he said that fraud is sometimes not seen as affecting businesses, and I think that it is very important that he highlighted that. <BR /> <BR />Danny Kennedy made a contribution, and I want to acknowledge what he said about Neil Somerville and wishing him well. I think that that would go for everybody, not just those on the Committee but, I am sure, the Assembly as a whole. He highlighted the issues in his constituency of Newry and Armagh, such as fuel laundering and ATM robberies.”
“I want to do a couple of headlines on the issues that Members raised. The Chair outlined the process but focused on cybercrime. He referred to the seminar at W5, which I think we all found very informative. It showed us, even beyond business crime, how the Internet can be used for other forms of crime. <BR /> <BR />Bronwyn McGahan focused on rural crime and gave the startling figure of £140,000 of theft in three months in her constituency. That is no doubt related to the detection rate, perhaps to the prioritisation of that crime and to how the farming community sometimes — I am not saying that it does not see it as a crime — nearly sees it as something that it can write off and not report. The Minister said that that would be very important as we go forward.”
“It is important to have a consistent and accurate recording system so that the extent and nature of business crime is identified, as that will assist the police in targeting resources to deal with it. I, therefore, welcome the fact that the PSNI is considering how to apply the definition of "business crime" that was agreed by the National Police Chiefs' Council in mid-2015, which appears to be very comprehensive and covers any criminal offence committed against a person or property that is associated with the connection of that person or property to a business.”
“In his opening remarks, the Chair outlined that the Committee wanted to play a constructive and advisory role in these types of issues, and I think that the Minister, in the absence of the Chair, accepted that the Committee did that. The role of the Chair, in particular, in these types of initiatives is also to be commended. <BR /> <BR />On the report, I would like to highlight the views expressed by the stakeholders regarding the disparities in the definition of what constitutes business crime and the recording of such crimes, which leads to difficulties in measuring its extent and impact. That was a common theme among many of the people who attended; indeed, it has been highlighted today by a number of Members.”
“One example is the indication from the director of Retailers Against Crime at its recent conference that partnership working with the police has improved in recent times, and that should be acknowledged. <BR /> <BR />Members covered a range of issues, and I will turn to those shortly. I just want to acknowledge — I think that the Minister said this — the methodology for the report. Although it was not an inquiry, it was a very focused and timely piece of work, and it delivered well. The issues that came to the fore were well pointed up, and the business community said that they were very obvious issues for it.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Committee event provided a very useful forum to enable the key stakeholders and the PSNI to engage with each other and the Committee on business crime, to discuss the key issues and to identify actions to deal with them. It also dispelled the myth that retail and business crime is victimless. It is not — it impacts on all of us. That was a common theme in many of the contributions today. <BR /> <BR />Following the event, the Committee wrote to the Minister and the PSNI, and I am pleased to say that both have taken on board the areas for suggested action and are proactively making improvements; indeed, the Minister outlined some of those today.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Obviously, this is an important and busy time of the year for our retailers and businesses, and the Committee's motion today, focusing on business crime, is timely and relevant. I suppose that it would be remiss of me not to mention and acknowledge the fact that many businesses, rural families and farming communities have been affected today by the adverse weather conditions. <BR /> <BR />I thank the Minister for responding to the debate. I also add my thanks to those who participated in the stakeholder event and provided written evidence, as outlined by the Chair. The Minister highlighted the need for partnership working and outlined some of the issues that will be taken forward by the Department and the PSNI, and that is to be welcomed.”
“Thank you very much. I appreciate that, Deputy Speaker. Seagate in Derry has written to, I assume, all the Foyle MLAs. Can the Minister be mindful that, to an employer like Seagate, energy costs are a big factor and that, in the wider Derry economy, Seagate plays a massive role in ensuring that people have employment and disposable incomes?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh an ráiteas agus gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an ráiteas seo. I welcome both the statement and the fact that the Minister is here to present it, particularly in relation to the eligibility criteria. I note and welcome the fact that it is also going to allow for non-affiliated clubs, particularly those that play in the Football Association of Ireland (FAI) league, which would include Derry City, in my home town. Is the Minister of the view that Derry City, perhaps, is well placed to make a bid for this, given that the club plays in the Football Association of Ireland's league, and that the siting of the national training centre there in the future would be more than appropriate?”
“Other thriving democracies have introduced quotas. We must ensure that we do not face 2021 accused of being under-representative.”
“<BR /> <BR />The recent inquiry by the Assembly and Executive Review Committee pointed out steps that could be taken. There is no doubt that there is reluctance by some parties in relation to quotas, and I am not making a party political point. Other institutions and democracies thrive when they introduce quotas. Sometimes, people here can have a narrow view of what democracy means. They look for a simple, single example of democracy and think that anything that goes against it is an attack on democratic structures.”
“That is a point well made. <BR /> <BR />I want to make the following point quickly, as I am conscious of time. One of the striking things about the sixth seat — Caitríona Ruane has already said it — is that women will suffer adversely. I have literally only 20 seconds to make that point, and we should not take that step without having some sort of sense. I have an extra minute. My apologies. Thanks, Claire Hanna. I looked up there and she gave me a puzzled look. Thank you very much. It is important that we feel that it is the appropriate time to do what we are doing. We have now signalled that we have five years, but in those five years we have to look at the idea that voices will be missing and, in particular, at the under-representation of women.”
“I suppose that, now that you have brought that to people's attention, there may be mitigation. Let us be optimistic and assume that all the parties here will want to represent the people out there, there will be a Programme for Government and we will proceed.”
“I cannot predict the outcome of the 2016 or 2021 election, but it is fair to say that people who have been good voices in the Assembly will perhaps be missing as a result.”
“I do not think that anybody would disagree with that nod of the head. There was a degree of misrepresentation. Indeed, Alex Attwood brought a context to that when he spoke. <BR /> <BR />All you have to do is look at the 2011 election results and see who took the sixth seat. You can never rerun an election by reconfiguring the figures for five Members, but it is a broad enough sheet to have a look at. You can see who was elected sixth and what that would mean in terms of representation. We have now come to an agreement, but we should be very serious about that representation. Pat Sheehan talked about how the RPA had brought in a layer of representation that was never present before. That was hard argued-for and hard won and then delivered by the Assembly.”
“Throughout the discussions at the AERC, we were never opposed in principle to the idea of reducing the number of MLAs. We always argued that it should come at an appropriate time in the history of the Assembly. <BR /> <BR />There is absolutely no doubt — Stewart Dickson talked about it — that there is an admirable cost-saving aspect to this, and we should always be mindful of that in the current climate. However, for us there is always — Pat Sheehan, in particular, outlined this — the issue of representation and, indeed, under-representation. We have to protect ourselves against that given our recent and, indeed, distant history of under-representation and misrepresentation. Despite the claim of democratic structures and "Let the people decide" etc, under-representation was always a feature.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Beidh mé ag labhairt in aghaidh an rúin. Like my two party colleagues, I am unable to support the motion. Our only issue with the motion is the timeline proposed, which is the election of 2016. When Mr Dickson was introducing it, he said, "Oh Lord, make me holy, but not just yet". In that spirit, I think that it is, "Lord, don't make me holy, but we're maybe a week too late". <BR /> <BR />We have already seen the settled will coming out of the talks that 2021 is a realistic proposition to change the number of MLAs. That will bring a degree of certainty. From some of the comments today, it is obvious that, whether or not we reduce the number of MLAs, the 2016 election campaign has certainly kicked off. People are up and ready and fighting that election in the Chamber this afternoon.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an fhreagra sin. I thank the Minister for his answer to that question and his approach to it. At the Committee meeting last week, and in the Minister's earlier answers, it was said that Anne Owers in 2011 said that one of the ways around the complexity of Maghaberry was to have three mini prisons. I have a concern that that is being postponed until a new capital build. That is why I have made the point that, if the number one governor in Maghaberry can find the means to bring about three mini-prisons, it should not be contingent on a capital build. Will the Minister agree with that approach?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. In the Minister's response to Cathal Boylan, he talked about the approach of dissidents inside. Given what the director general said on Friday about the ineffectual relationship — she accepted that there was a resistance to change amongst prison staff in Maghaberry — does "dissidents" take on a whole new meaning in that context?”
“That's the last two Ministers phoning you.”
“Would the Member agree with me that the north-west ministerial subgroup, which looks at regional disparities, would be a good vehicle to assist in the process of seeking out funding streams?”
“A British Prime Minister had to stand up and say that what happened was unjustified and unjustifiable, so at least one person changed their mind. <BR /> <BR />The families deserve support. It is crucial to note that there are many unanswered questions on the nature of the investigation, the subsequent closing of doors and the holding back of evidence at the inquest. Members have outlined their opinion on the motion, as it is framed. They have all said that there was something grievously wrong, that some great hurt was visited upon these families and that they deserve the truth. Members should support the motion. Go raibh míle maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle.”
“Absolutely. Members have referred to the processes that are in place, and people are trying to conclude on that this week. There is absolutely no doubt that those families who are seeking the truth will not be put off or deterred. In my opinion, they should be supported. Certainly, we have the responsibility to ensure that all matters relating to the truth are ventilated and that people are given proper recourse. The Ballymurphy families are an excellent example. From the outset, they have asked for nothing more and, certainly, they deserve nothing less, than the truth. People have tried to say, "This is going to be Saville mark II", and I have heard people say that Saville did not achieve anything. It is wrong to say that.”
“It is only through that that we will see that there was not only a poor or improper investigation and an arrangement between the British Army and the British military police, but —”
“<BR /> <BR />Importantly — Pat Sheehan referred to this — one of the things that came out during the Saville inquiry was the arrangement between the British military police and the RUC around investigations, which was that the military police were charged with conducting investigations into all killings carried out by the British Army at that time. Subsequently, a very senior figure within the judiciary here in the North of Ireland said that he found that questionable and dubious. Indeed, he went on to say that he could find no legal basis for that arrangement. That instance alone, and the breaching of article 2, showed beyond any shadow of a doubt that the investigations were improper. So, on that ground alone, the Ballymurphy families deserve an inquiry.”
“The fact is that they have put forward the Hillsborough stadium model as the way forward. I think that most people who watched the Hillsborough incident accept that families got to the truth and that it was done in a more time-bound way and that there was less cost as a result. <BR /> <BR />The second aspect of the proposition is that other cases have not been investigated or have not been investigated properly. If that is the case, Members are entitled, as are these families, to bring the case to public opinion, seek political support and seek redress. That is what should be done. You cannot say to some person, "Yes, you have the merit for a particular course of action, but we can't support it simply because, in other instances, other people haven't made the case". That is not only a poor but a flawed argument.”
“<BR /> <BR />Irrespective of what the incident is, people should make their judgements on the merit of the case put forward by the families, not on side arguments or other flawed arguments. We have seen a combination today. The Bloody Sunday inquiry is often used. I heard Mike Nesbitt saying that there were two inquiries. There were two inquiries because the first one was so flawed that it was unbelievable. Other people talked about the cost. Again, the cost of the inquiry could have been avoided if people had faced up to their responsibilities and told the truth in the first instance. <BR /> <BR />The Ballymurphy families have realised that perhaps some part of public opinion might think that some of the inquiries are open-ended and therefore cost too much.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I support the motion. I commend the proposers, and I know that Trevor Lunn will make a winding-up speech on it. Rosie McCorley and Pat Sheehan laid out in very detailed terms the incident that took place in Ballymurphy in August 1971. Our party has pledged its support to the families in their search for the truth. I say with a degree of confidence that, although many doors have been closed to them over many years, most people would say that, because of the quiet and dignified manner in which they have approached it, a door will eventually open and they will get their request. Apart from the fact that the British state was responsible for killing their loved ones, a big part of their demand in searching for the truth is that they were failed by the state in terms of investigation.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an fhreagra sin. I thank the junior Minister for her answer. She has given a good outline, in particular that some refugees will be coming before Christmas, which I think most people will welcome. She talked about the roles of local councils. What roles does she think that councils, in particular, will play in the integration of these Syrians into local communities?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an ráiteas go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for both his statement and his answers to questions thus far. When any Minister comes to the Assembly and accepts that there is a failure of leadership, ineffective relationships between people in management and a resistance to change, that Minister knows that he has a problem. As we go forward, the Minister has to reassure the House on the question I ask him today: is he now certain that leadership will be allowed to prevail, that ineffective relationships will not be tolerated, and that the Anne Owers prison reforms will be implemented, and implemented in full?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a ráiteas agus cuirim fáilte roimh an athbhreithniú seo. I welcome the fact that the Minister made this statement and that the report is now in place. I also welcome the Minister's very strident comment that he sees access to justice as a fundamental human right. <BR /> <BR />There is a notion in the report about resistance to change. Does the Minister envisage that the recommendations will turn into an implementation plan that we can all see and track to ensure that any resistance can be easily identified?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an fhreagra sin. I thank the Minister for her answer, including the comprehensive range of issues that have been of benefit to farming and rural communities. Will she take this opportunity to give us an update, particularly on labelling and how that has helped farmers across the island?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an fhreagra sin. I thank the Minister for his answer. I welcome many of the steps which many agencies have taken in relation to domestic violence, and the Minister has outlined a number of them. In the absence of the strategy being rolled out, would the Minister give the House an assurance that it is not a budgetary requirement or deficit that prevents him from rolling out the strategy?”
“We look forward now to the charter enjoying statutory footing and to people's journey through the process being a lot better as a result.”