Raymond McCartney
Foyle · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“Comhghairdeas leis an Aire. I congratulate the Minister on what is, obviously, a very challenging portfolio. I welcome the statement. I welcome the speed with which you have met the unions and, hopefully, share your optimism that you have put on the table an offer that will see an end to the industrial action.”
“This is a classic case of, sometimes, a decision being made that, people think, is the right thing to do at one time that only pushes another challenge down the road. We need a commitment from the Minister to ensure that we have a mechanism in place to safeguard us against that.”
“The Minister has alluded to the fact that the Assembly is about to dissolve, and we will all go to the doors in the coming weeks. I commend the Minister. Certainly, when we go to the doors, many issues will be raised, and it will be good for us, as Assembly Members, to be able to say to people, "No water tax".”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as na freagraí sin. I thank the Minister for his answers. We talked about the cost of division, but I ask him to talk about the reputational damage to the Assembly that has come about as a result of some disgraceful decisions that were blatantly discriminatory, sectarian in the truest sense of the word and pa…”
“That aside, it is fair to say that, over a long number of years, the expansion of the campus at Magee has been very much part of the politics of the north-west; indeed, Stephen Farry, in fairness, talked about it.”
“The university, in presenting that, gave all the pluses around that and said clearly that one of the things, particularly at postgraduate entry in medical schools and in other courses, from experiences elsewhere, is the idea of what they call the 20:20 rule — people stay within 20 miles of where they were educated for 20 years.”
The complete record
Every one of 553 lines we hold for Raymond McCartney, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 9 of 12.
“<BR /> <BR />In fairness to the Minister, he is on record as stating that the Department's initial analysis of the business case is that it is robust and strong. Only last week, in response to a question from Maeve McLaughlin, he said that he would be prepared to make a bid in the next CSR period. I am sure that he will find support right across the public representation in the city and further afield. We welcome that. That is where our focus will be as we take this forward.”
“Speaking with one voice for Magee, with the One Plan as our reference point, was one of the initial factors. All of us in the city accepted that there was a need for a robust and strong business case, which was prompted, at the time, by the Department and the Minister. That was delivered in November 2014. With that in place, it will be our reference point as we go forward. <BR /> <BR />The initiative by the deputy First Minister that brought about the establishment of the ministerial subgroup for the north-west, with the expansion of Magee as its central plank, is another key factor. The inclusion of the Minister for Employment and Learning on that subgroup highlights the fact that there will be direct conversations across the meeting table rather than an opportunity "to liaise directly", as the motion proposes.”
“There was a very strong, single-minded, single-focused way forward on a range of issues, particularly social and economic issues, and it was our mission statement for the future. Any sense of disunity or of people trying to speak about it not in the right terms was put to bed. Its inclusion in the Programme for Government is validation of the position taken. <BR /> <BR />Central to the One Plan was the need for job creation and skills, and the expansion of Magee university is very much key to that. Indeed, I think that, if asked, most people in the city and its surrounds would say that their number one preference for progress is the expansion of the university. The expansion is firmly on the political agenda now, and it is in that very advanced position by virtue of a number of factors.”
“One has only to look at Galway and Cork to see the impact that a vibrant university, assisted by government policy, has on the economy of the wider region. You can include other indicators, but that always has a massive input, and you can see it in those instances. <BR /> <BR />The need for the university to be situated in Derry has its roots in the Lockwood report. That has been an ongoing theme of the campaign, and a sense of grievance and injustice still resonates today. All of us from Derry who worked on the One Plan did so to ensure that, in putting the report together, it would be seen as Derry putting forward a united platform. There was no room for dissenting voices.”
“<BR /> <BR />I welcome the debate on the expansion. As Pat Ramsey said, this is the latest in a number of similar debates in the Assembly and elsewhere. It is fair and appropriate to say that all of us who represent Derry city in particular and the constituencies across the north-west appreciate and fully understand the need for a vibrant university at the Magee campus, with the envisaged 9,400 full-time places. I welcome the fact that my party colleagues from East Derry and West Tyrone will speak in the debate. <BR /> <BR />Beyond the obvious educational impact, the wider social and economic circumstances of the north-west would receive a welcome and dynamic boost. When people talk about expansion and the need for it as a game changer, it is not a cliché; rather, it reflects the reality.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Beidh mé ag labhairt i bhfabhar an rúin agus in éadan an leasaithe. I will speak in favour of the motion, and I certainly have a few comments to make on the amendment. <BR /> <BR />Sinn Féin will support the motion, as we feel that it truly reflects the current debate on the issue. The inclusion of the One Plan in the Programme for Government leads us to believe that the use of the word "affirm" in the motion is more appropriate than the use of the word "note" in the amendment. It is important to point that out. I say to everyone involved in the debate today that the case for expansion, particularly of Magee university, has always received its best impetus when we seek a united approach. Therefore, I would like to see a situation in which the Assembly did not divide on the issue.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phriomh LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an fhreagra sin. I thank the Minister for that answer and for the information he has supplied. I know that he has dealt with a number of issues, but is there a contingency if there is an increase in the interest rate? Will the plan be rigorous enough to offset that as well?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his answers so far. We welcome the consultation. As people bring their arguments to the table, they should do so on the basis of evidence and fact, but I ask the Minister that they should also consider a degree of compassion.”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an fhreagra sin. I thank the Minister for her answer. We all recognise the importance of the ministerial subgroup. Does she believe that a subregional approach is the best way in which to tackle regional disparity?”
“When you examine the record, examine what the Minister alleged that I was doing. The Minister, in effect, accused me of lying.”
“— and that the established protocol was to take them through the Committee. So the Minister has not dealt with this. The Minister has tried today, by points of order, to mislead this Assembly.”
“No. So much for openness and transparency. Indeed, only last week, at the Justice Committee, in response to Edwin Poots, the Justice Minister stated that he did not like taking regulations directly to the Assembly —”
“No. No explanation has been offered as to why such an error occurred; there is just reference to the need to withdraw an earlier explanatory memorandum. So that is the trail. I notice that the names of the proposers of the motion do not appear in the explanation. To date, no such corrected document has been sent to the Justice Committee.”
“— in his correspondence to the Committee. I am told that no documents, explanation or correction have since been provided to the Committee. I am told that the documents are now before the British Parliament and that they have been corrected and amended and that the Minister's name has now been removed.”
“Indeed, on Friday 29 January, the Justice Committee received a letter and a copy of the order and the memorandum that again stated that the Minister had tabled the motion at the Assembly. The Minister did not correct what was an obvious error, if that is what it was —”
“With respect, I am dealing with the facts. I received correspondence as a member of the Justice Committee, and I am reading from that correspondence. The Minister may have subsequently corrected some aspect, but I am reading from a document that I have in my possession. <BR /> <BR />I will go on. For the record, last Tuesday, 27 January, at the Assembly Business Committee, the DUP requested that its motion on human fertilisation be replaced by another motion, which is the motion that is now before us, the wording of which is the exact wording in the memorandum that was laid before the British Parliament two days later in the name of the Justice Minister. I will not dwell on the inaccuracy or competency of that order; that is a matter for Westminster.”
“Paragraph 7.3 outlines the relevant NCA provisions and states that they are:”
“The Minister finds himself guilty before I make the case.”
“No, I will not give way. You will have an opportunity and can address all the questions that I will put. <BR /> <BR />The route chosen is now the one before us, and that is the one that we will vote on today. I want to outline how this has been brought to the Assembly in, in my opinion, a clumsy and damaging manner. The British Government laid an order in their Parliament on 29 January 2015. Paragraph 7.2 of the explanatory notes, which is policy background, states:”
“Indeed, the Minister previously tried to bring an LCM to deal with the role and remit of the NCA in this jurisdiction. The route for bringing that to the House is by Executive approval. In particular, Executive approval is sought if a matter is considered significant, controversial or falling outside the Programme for Government. I contend that many people would see the remit of the NCA as significant and, indeed, controversial. It certainly is not in the Programme for Government. That process may not be to the liking of the Minister and those who rushed to have the NCA in place, irrespective of the impact that it will have on accountable policing, good governance and how the Assembly should do its business. However, that process has been circumvented by the Minister bypassing the Executive and the LCM process.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Gerry Kelly dealt with the wider issues of this particular motion. I am very mindful of the fact that Caitríona Ruane made a point of order this morning, and we accept the competency of the motion. However, I want to outline aspects of this important matter that have been brought to the Assembly for a decision that, in my party's opinion, are questionable and inappropriate. <BR /> <BR />The established mechanism, as laid out in Standing Orders and based on the principles underpinning the Good Friday Agreement, that permits Westminster legislation to take effect here is a legislative consent motion (LCM). Those structures were designed to ensure effective protections, accountability and the primacy of the Assembly.”
“Does the Minister agree that, whatever development is done at the Brandywell stadium, it is important that it is seen to be part of the Foyle valley gateway, which was a catalyst project in the One Plan?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a freagra. I hope the fact that Derry City beat Ballinamallard United 2-0 last night had nothing to do with the type of question just asked.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an fhreagra sin. Alban Maginness referred to the particular campaign. Perhaps the easiest way in which to go forward is for the Department to define what it considers to be a minor offence and for it then to seek to legislate to ensure that such offences are not taken into account and, indeed, are taken off the record. Does the Minister agree that that is a sensible way in which to go forward?”
“I am aware that the Member is a member of the Education Committee. Have you seen the official advice?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an fhreagra sin. I thank the Minister for his comprehensive answer. Does he agree with the court decision that the ability to strike an appropriate rate should be a matter for the Assembly without any external interference?”
“— in the motion. We certainly feel that decentralisation will play a key part in tackling regional disparity.”
“We should always be supportive of that. <BR /> <BR />Last week, there was a bit of disappointment when Joe Byrne seemed to unpick the idea of DARD going to Ballykelly. That was wrong. Whether it is the Forest Service going to Enniskillen, DARD Direct going to Strabane, the fisheries division going to Downpatrick or Mark Durkan's private office and some parts of planning going to Ebrington, anything that puts decentralisation in place sends a very clear signal. It is Programme for Government commitment. It is a way of tackling regional disparity and it sends a very clear message. That is why we wanted that to be part of the motion. <BR /> <BR />We support the issues outlined —”
“In my opinion, it should, and we have already seen broad support from political and civic society. It is sometimes wrong to try to frame these things or to dismiss them as programme for votes. If we believe in working collaboratively, this is an example of how we can work cooperatively and take it forward. <BR /> <BR />I want to concentrate on the decentralisation because I think that decentralisation can play a role. We see it in relation to the DARD office. Many economists have said that there will be an impact. It is not new jobs and no one will say that it is new jobs, but it can have an impact and a multiplier effect in that, if you bring jobs to an area out of Belfast, it first of all sends a very clear signal of intent and, secondly, allows people to see the site and to see it being used for other economic value.”
“<BR /> <BR />The motion lists a number of key issues. I will not rehearse them, but they include the headline projects of the One Plan, job creation, infrastructures, skills and university expansion, and that encapsulates the mood of the motion going forward. It is in that context that we welcome the idea of the ministerial subgroup. The issues are obvious and they mirror the issues of this motion. We welcome the composition of the group. The relevant Ministers are in place and, this morning, the Finance Minister seemed to be adding his support to it. I know from a press release at the weekend that Mark Durkan has asked that the Regional Development Minister be part of the ongoing conversations. So, I have absolutely no doubt that that subgroup will get the support of all MLAs in the north-west.”
“There has been a number of years of work and many contributions right across the city and district and, indeed, from other parts of the North and right across the islands. When you read the document, one of the obvious and striking things about it is that it is not based on assumption but on hard facts and concrete evidence. No sweeping assumptions are made either, because, too often, perhaps in the heat of the moment or in the heat of debate, too many people make assumptions and we hear statements like, "All our young people are despondent", and, "All our young people have no hope". I do not think that is the case. That is not to say that some young people are not despondent, but it is the responsibility of all of us to ensure that they have a pathway towards ensuring that they have prosperity in their lives. That is what we have to do.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I preface my remarks by welcoming the Minister's statement of intent today around the expansion of Magee and, crucially, his timeline for the teaching block at Magee. It will find welcome support across the north-west and, indeed, I am sure, right across the island of Ireland. <BR /> <BR />It leads to one of the main points that I was going to make in relation to this debate. We support the motion because, at its heart, it is an attempt to try to address decades of economic underdevelopment and all that results from that. If we have learnt any lesson over the last number of years, it is that, when people speak with a collective and agreed position, the chances of success are greater. For us in Foyle, the One Plan is a very good and obvious example of that inaction.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an fhreagra sin. I thank the Minister for her answer and her ongoing interest in the project. She mentioned the Brandywell football stadium. Has she had any indication of when that application process will commence?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an fhreagra sin. I thank the Minister for her answer. She said at the end that she was waiting for some sort of clearance from the European process, but has she any indication of when the application bids will open?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagra. I thank the Minister for his answer. Sometimes people put up the thesis that, where the NCA operates, there is no crime, and that, if only it were here, there would be no crime. Is the Minister aware of the recent trial where the trial judge described the NCA as "incompetent", involving itself in multiple failures, and "beyond negligence", and said that it failed to adhere to the protocol and principles of disclosure? Does the Minister agree with our concern that, where people feel that it is not accountable, it acts beyond account?”
“In conclusion, I commend the proposer of the Bill for his work and, indeed, his courtesy throughout in all his engagements with the Committee and the party on separate matters. Go raibh míle maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle.”
“Lord Morrow mentioned the Committee's work. I pay tribute to the staff and the Committee Chair, who he said was now leaving. From a Sinn Féin point of view, throughout the Committee Stage, opinion was divided on many issues and aspects of the Bill but no barriers were ever put in front of members who wanted to tease out questions. <BR /> <BR />As a result, there were some long sessions. The Chair is to be commended for that approach. There is sometimes a tendency for people to want meetings to be over quickly, but we can say that that did not happen in the Justice Committee. That approach allows people to exhaust whatever avenue they want in interrogating or testing any piece of evidence. That was similar for this Bill. <BR /> <BR />We will certainly be supporting the Bill.”
“The way that it was carried out certainly helped people to do that. It was not seen as people being opposed to something for the sake of it; there were genuinely held concerns. The sponsor of the Bill did well in acknowledging, accepting and realising that and then working very hard to change people's minds. <BR /> <BR />Lord Morrow said that — we sort of know that the Bill will be voted through later this afternoon — it is now about testing its effect. If we set out to tackle exploitation in whatever form, we have to ensure that the Bill has an effect. We were guided by the answers to many of the questions that we asked about the Bill's intention, outcome and effect. We now wait for that effect as we go forward.”
“Our visit to the Oireachtas Committee and its detailed report also informed us. Lord Morrow mentioned Jim Wells. Jim Wells's favourite person in life at that time was Pádraig Mac Lochlainn, so I think that Pádraig Mac Lochlainn goes away from this very heartened. One degree of disappointment in all this is that, at Further Consideration Stage, I said that I hoped that he would be invited to the DUP conference. That has come and gone, and he did not get an invite. However, I am sure that he lives in hope that he will be invited next year. <BR /> <BR />Lord Morrow talked about this when he was concluding. At the core of the Bill is an attempt to deal with exploitation; that is what we were all focused on. He said that there were issues on which people needed to be convinced and brought along on a journey.”
“Lord Morrow has already said this, but we have to put on record the professionalism that the Committee staff and the Department brought to this at all times. <BR /> <BR />It was obviously a longer and more intense journey for the proposer of the Bill, Lord Morrow, but for us, as a Committee, it was also very detailed work. Many of the briefings were very informative. Lord Morrow said that, if you compared an initial copy of the Bill with what will be voted on this afternoon, you would see the differences that have been made. That, in itself, is a positive. One person had an intention, and then, when they engaged with other people, including the Department, that helped to shape the Bill and to make it better as it went through. <BR /> <BR />From our point of view, there was a number of very important aspects.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I want to begin at Final Stage by commending the proposer of the Bill for his work. He talked about it being a three-year journey: with half remission, that would be a six-year sentence. In that respect, I think that he knows that it has been a long journey. From a party point of view, on behalf of the Sinn Féin members of the Committee, I commend him for the work that he carried out and all the briefings that he provided as he took the Bill through the process, particularly on what was formerly clause 6 and became clause 15. He has rightly mentioned the many people who supported him in what he called his team. Some of those people met us as a party, and they gave evidence to the Committee. We, too, appreciate that work.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an ráiteas seo agus a chuid freagraí go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for his statement and his answers to date. Following on from Dominic Bradley's question, there is no doubt that the legislation in the Twenty-six Counties has practically wiped out the sales of legal highs on the high street. How can the Department be innovative and proactive in its approach to the British Home Office so that we can speed up the introduction of similar legislation in the North?”
“<BR /> <BR />Given all those considerations and, indeed, that individual parties were then able to take up positions on the Human Trafficking and Exploitation Bill, the Committee subsequently agreed, at the meeting on 19 November, that it was content to support the legislative consent motion. I commend the motion to the Assembly. <BR /> <BR />Speaking in my capacity as an individual MLA, I would have raised the point that we believe that Lord Morrow's Bill would have been strengthened by a local rapporteur, but those points are now on the record.”
“More recently, on 5 November 2014, the Committee was briefed by departmental officials on the LCM and on how the Anti-slavery Commissioner would consider the interests of the North, including a requirement for the British Home Secretary to consult devolved Ministers, including the Minister of Justice, on the appointment of the commissioner; a duty on the British Home Secretary to consult devolved Ministers before agreeing any strategic plan or annual report; and a power for the Justice Minister to be able to request ad hoc reports on any matters. Reports by the commissioner will be jointly submitted to the British Home Secretary and devolved Ministers, and there is a statutory duty on the Minister here to lay the reports in front of the Committee.”
“In the absence of further information on how the commissioner would operate and on the extent to which the post would meet the particular needs of the North, it agreed to support the provision in the Human Trafficking Bill for a local rapporteur. The Committee also agreed to consider the matter further once clarity on the remit and responsibilities of the Anti-slavery Commissioner was available.”
“A local rapporteur would not be able to do that, and a commissioner might not have considered the specific needs of the North and its particular challenges, including the land border, as it is called, with the Twenty-six Counties. <BR /> <BR />There was also concern, as initially drafted in the Modern Slavery Bill, that the commissioner would consider only law enforcement and not areas such as victim support, which it was intended that the rapporteur in the North would consider. At that stage, the Committee agreed that it supported the principle of having an independent body to monitor and report on the response to human trafficking.”
“<BR /> <BR />When the Committee considered the clause at Committee Stage, there was clear support for the concept of an independent oversight mechanism to provide effective monitoring and accountability arrangements. The key issue was whether having a local rapporteur or an independent anti-slavery commissioner was more appropriate. The commissioner was seen to be beneficial, given the clear international nature of, and dimension to, human trafficking and the fact that such a commissioner could look comprehensively at the actions of all the organisations and agencies involved in tackling trafficking in the North and could link to the British Home Office, the Human Trafficking Centre and the Gangmasters Licensing Authority.”
“Departmental officials advised that they had had initial engagement at official level with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment and the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development on the proposal. The Committee noted that the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment indicated that it is content in principle with the proposal to extend the provision, and the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development is satisfied that the provisions would not raise any departmental issues for them. <BR /> <BR />The third issue covered by the LCM relates to the extension of the office of the Independent Anti-slavery Commissioner to the North. It is an issue that the Committee has given extensive consideration to, and the Chair covered it during the various stages of the Human Trafficking Bill.”
“The first area will introduce new enforcement powers for ships in order to tackle human trafficking and slavery where it occurs at sea. The Committee noted that the Minister had consulted the Chief Constable and the Policing Board on the proposed powers, and both agreed that they would be beneficial and would enhance our capacity to respond to human trafficking and slavery crimes and assist in bringing perpetrators to justice. <BR /> <BR />The second issue covered by the LCM aims to fill the current information gap around the overall corporate response to tackling slavery in supply chains and to encourage companies to take meaningful action.”
“Victims are often unwilling to come forward to law enforcement or public protection agencies, not seeing themselves as victims or fearing reprisals from their traffickers, and those who come into contact with them do not always recognise them as being victims of trafficking. <BR /> <BR />As we are all aware from the Assembly’s consideration of the Human Trafficking and Exploitation Bill, modern slavery is a particularly brutal form of organised crime, in which people are treated as commodities and exploited for criminal gain. The Committee heard about such experiences at first hand from a number of victims, and, in particular, from one victim of human trafficking for sexual exploitation. <BR /> <BR />The Minister outlined the provisions in the Bill that are covered by the LCM.”