Gerry Kelly
North Belfast · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for his statement. Accountability and implementation have been mentioned a number of times. The test in all of this will be the speed of implementation. I declare an interest, in that my sister Peggy, who was next in the family to me, spent time in Muckamore many years ago.”
“I will finish in one second. When I asked her how she was doing, she said that she wanted me to go and help others. That is what she spent our time together talking about. <BR /> <BR />We are talking not just about closing Muckamore but about resettling people.”
“I understand that the amendment is not a panacea. Ultimately, however, it will improve the tools at the police's disposal. <BR /> <BR />There is a further issue regarding what happens to the vehicles once they are seized.”
“Sinn Féin supports all three of the amendments in group five. As we know, amendment Nos 74 and 75 will introduce new powers to allow the police do drug testing at checkpoints and road traffic collisions, which will bring drug testing in line with existing alcohol breath testing. It is a necessary step to ensure public safety.”
“We talked about regulations earlier, and a number of Members said that we may have to return to the issue. I understand that we are dealing with one particular issue in the Bill, but the Minister may agree that it is something that we should come back to as our experience of what is happening grows.”
“<BR /> <BR />In West Belfast just last week, at least two children were hospitalised as a result of collisions involving e-scooters and e-bikes, including one in which a young person's head went through the back window of a car. They are very lucky to be alive.”
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“I am coming to it. Will the Minister give us details of other recent minor works projects that have been completed?”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagra go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for his answers up to now and for the investment in St Bernard's. The money will be used for five new classrooms and to renovate and remodel seven other existing rooms. That shows that there is a growing population in the area.”
“I understand that this is not just about built heritage and that there is a long history there. Its use by the community, once the work is done, is very important.”
“Mo bhuíochas leis an Aire as a freagraí go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for her answers up to now. Can she give us any idea of whether there might be scope for sharing services with the local community and, indeed, the university, which is in the same area?”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire. I thank the Minister for her answer and I agree that it is very serious. While there may be a difference in terms of the emissions, I understand that questions about it are already being raised in Europe. I am simply asking the Minister whether it could be raised on behalf of the Assembly and the people who are affected by it in the North. The smart chips that the cars are using could easily be used in other vehicles and by other manufacturers as well. This scandal could be much bigger than it already is. Can we make some effort to make an intervention to see what the story is?”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a cuid freagraí go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for her answers up to now. Does she agree, on the basis of what she said, with Transparency International, which compiles an annual list of corruption with Governments throughout the world to root out robustly embezzlement, fraud etc, so that we do not have our international investment attacked in the way in which, I believe, it is being at the moment?”
“Ceist a ceathair, le do thoil. Question 4, please. Sorry, question 5. I do beg your pardon.”
“We have also been clear that the biggest threat to the stability of the political institutions remains the ongoing Tory austerity cuts to the Executive's Budget, which is impacting on our ability to deliver front-line public services. What is required now from everyone involved in these talks, including the British and Irish Governments, is leadership and a commitment to come to an agreement, as a matter of urgency. I commend the motion to the Assembly.”
“They should avoid lecturing republicans, especially when they share platforms with the leaders of loyalist paramilitary groups, despite the shooting of east Belfast woman Jemma McGrath, the murder of Bobby Moffett, the killing of Brian McIlhagga earlier this year, and the nailing of a man's hands to a table in the Shankill area last month. <BR /> <BR />Sinn Féin will enter these talks on our electoral mandate and our commitment to democracy and peace, which is clearly demonstrated by our record in the House and outside. We want to achieve the full implementation of the Stormont House Agreement and on the issues of welfare protections, and to address the legacy of all parties to the conflict, including state forces.”
“There are major budgetary difficulties and an ongoing effort by London to impose austerity policies on the Assembly. There are also the ongoing and unanswered questions about the sell-off of NAMA's loan book in the North and the allegation that some politicians and associates have benefited from that. Despite that building scandal, there is no speculation of the kind that is now in full flow around Sinn Féin's worthiness as a political party. <BR /> <BR />Over the last few weeks, there has been huge hypocrisy from some sitting on the Benches.”
“Sinn Féin will not allow ourselves or, more importantly, our electorate to be demonised or marginalised over matters that have nothing to do with us. <BR /> <BR />Last year, the people of Ireland, in free votes in the European and local government elections, gave Sinn Féin the largest vote of any party on the island. They voted for Sinn Féin because we provide a real alternative to the politics of austerity now being forced on the people of this island by the present British and Irish Governments. <BR /> <BR />I think that that is what really worries the political parties, North and South, who rush to attack Sinn Féin. The political institutions here are already in considerable difficulty. Important elements of the Stormont House Agreement have not been implemented.”
“Even in one of his latest utterances, Mike Nesbitt has said that he will join the talks process only if he is satisfied with those who are involved. Who appointed him as an arbiter? <BR /> <BR />Sinn Féin and republicans, including the IRA, have taken a series of historic initiatives to create the opportunity for peace, to sustain the process in difficult times and to overcome obstacles. The Sinn Féin leadership has worked hard to find imaginative and innovative ways to resolve problems, but this problem is not of our making. Sinn Féin has no responsibility whatsoever for those who killed Kevin McGuigan or Gerard 'Jock' Davison. The response of the other political parties to those killings has been self-serving and short-sighted. There is no basis for the charges made against Sinn Féin by our political opponents.”
“Last year, when all the parties were, again, around the table trying to come to agreement, unionism walked out, over a single short section of an Orange Order parade, to stand shoulder to shoulder with representatives of loyalist paramilitaries, who are involved in continuous criminality, including murder. <BR /> <BR />In the Stormont House Agreement, the UUP has had one foot in and one foot out of the talks. At some of the regular implementation meetings, they have declared that they are there only to observe or to ask questions. While the victims and survivors' community wait hopefully for the legacy architecture to be legislated for, the UUP commit themselves to nothing but stroke politics.”
“Whoever was involved in these killings, whatever connection they may claim to Irish republicanism, they are criminals who have been involved in murder, and everyone and anyone with information must bring it to the police so that the perpetrators will be brought to justice through the courts. <BR /> <BR />It is my contention that this so-called crisis is, in fact, a crisis manufactured by political unionism. At its core, is party political electioneering. It was not until they saw the political opportunity presented by the press conference that they pursued this issue with any energy at all. Mike Nesbitt, in particular, has been living on sound bites from at least as far back as the Haass talks, when unionism refused to close the deal.”
“ACC Will Kerr reinforced the Chief Constable's position by telling the Policing Board that the IRA's active service units do not now exist. <BR /> <BR />So, what is the difference in the assessments of the PSNI and Sinn Féin? Essentially, one says that the IRA has gone and is therefore not active and the other states that it still exists but is not active in any negative way. It is important to point out this difference of opinion because any non-partisan observer must surely wonder where there can be a crisis between these two positions. <BR /> <BR />We are told that one line of enquiry of the PSNI investigation is that members or ex-members of the IRA may have been involved in the murders. Let me deal directly with that.”
“He went on to further describe Action Against Drugs as:”
“He went on to state that, while he believes that the IRA exists, the PSNI:”
“The IRA left the stage in 2005 and it is not coming back. Other political parties and agencies agree with the PSNI claim, and that is their prerogative. <BR /> <BR />However, it is worth examining what the Chief Constable actually said in his press conference and later repeated to the Policing Board on Thursday last. He said that the PSNI was:”
“Before the Assembly gets into the process of disagreement, let me start the debate on what I believe is absolutely agreed by all, and that is the entirety of the motion. At the centre of the debate today, there are two grieving families who will be listening carefully and hoping that the Assembly will assist them in seeking justice and bring them to a path of some closure. <BR /> <BR />While those who carried out these brutal killings are the only ones to blame for the huge grief and suffering brought to the families, it was politicians cherry-picking phrases from the PSNI press conference who first triggered the political crisis, or pseudo-crisis, which all of us now face in this institution. Sinn Féin does not agree with the Chief Constable's assessment that the IRA exists, even in the benign way that he states.”
“Go raibh maith agat. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagraí go dtí seo. The Minister will also be aware that many families are waiting for inquests to come through, so this is a matter of urgency. If he talked about a time frame, I was not quite sure of his answer. This is an urgent issue for all of us and is certainly so for those families. Will he give some idea of the time frame involved?”
“that the truth comes out no matter from where.”
“The motion states that the legacy — just let me finish with this because Mr Poots and Mr Dickson have linked this. They say that they are up for the whole truth coming out —”
“<BR /> <BR />Secondly, although it is on record that a number of state agents were involved in his murder, not one member of any state force who handled those agents has ever been charged, even though it is not disputed, I would argue, on any side of the House. <BR /> <BR />Another case from north Belfast was one of the biggest losses of life, that is the McGurk's Bar bombings. It is documented that state forces knew that loyalists were involved in the bombings that killed so many people and that those same forces set about blaming republicans for the deaths, knowing not only that loyalists were involved but that state agents were involved.”
“Colluding in the cover-up makes those who do it as guilty as those who participated in the deaths and injuries of the collusion that we are discussing here during the very long conflict. <BR /> <BR />Victims of state collusion are so numerous that it is difficult to single out any one above the others, but let me speak just for a moment about the death of Pat Finucane because he stands out for two other reasons. An inquiry was agreed at Weston Park by the British and Irish Governments, yet that inquiry never took place. What the British did instead was to bring in legislation in the Inquiries Act to prevent an open and independent inquiry. That was their way of dealing with the truth: to prevent it.”
“<BR /> <BR />That culture of the impunity of state actors still prevails today, even amongst those in government and state agencies, who may not themselves have been involved in collusion leading to those deaths. It is perhaps one of the things that is most difficult for victims, survivors and their families to understand that people — even those across the Benches here — are defending things that they might not have had anything to do with. That is hard for victims to understand in their grief and in their search. <BR /> <BR />Let us be clear: holding back information, lack of disclosure, refusals to investigate, obstructing inquiries, destroying or losing evidence is the new collusion.”
“The first laid out the strategy, and the second gave examples of its implementation in many other places where the British had their colonies before here. <BR /> <BR />It is also important to say that the policy and practice did not work and was never going to work. Instead, it welded the nationalist community together in the face of such an onslaught. It certainly welded the families of victims together, and we all owe them a debt of gratitude for their tenacity and determination, sometimes into a second and third generation in searching out the truth from behind a maze of obstruction and obstacles put in front of them — also as a policy to prevent the truth coming out.”
“Not to you, Jim. <BR /> <BR />Whether you read the various reports by Stevens, Judge Cory, de Silva, or Nuala O'Loan or whether you read Anne Cadwallader's book, 'Lethal Allies', it is obvious that collusion was not random; it was part of a policy by British Government forces. We do not know how far up it went, although there is at least some evidence that, over many years, it went as far as the British Cabinet. Its purpose was to intimidate, demoralise and terrorise the nationalist community. <BR /> <BR />It is important to state that Ireland was not the only, or, indeed, the first, place where such a policy was enacted. If you want to read it from the British point of view, you will find it in General Kitson's book 'Low Intensity Operations' and also in his second book, which was called, I believe, 'Bunch of Five'.”
“That is what the truth process that Sinn Féin has been arguing for for at least 15 years has been about and has been resisted, up till now, by those opposite.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. The revelations in the 'Spotlight' and 'Panorama' programmes triggered this important debate today. What is, perhaps, surprising for those who have long known that state collusion took place, and it did take place on a systematic basis, is that we are still calling them revelations. <BR /> <BR />There is now a volume of evidence out in open view, not done by the media, that can surely leave no one in doubt — even those who, ostrich-like, do not want to see what the British Government did through their forces in the military, the police, the intelligence services, their state agents and informants — that state killings caused the death of hundreds of innocent citizens. That is the truth, if we are talking about the truth, and I am for the truth coming out all over.”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagraí go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for his answer up to now. He said that he will do a review. Can he give us some indication of when he plans the update? I notice that you said 2015-16 in terms of the noise control regulations. Do you have a date for that? Will it be done in this mandate?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a freagraí go dtí seo. <BR /> <BR />The junior Minister went through a number of projects. Can she tell me, even by rule of thumb, when the physical work might start? I am interested to know that for any of the urban village projects, but particularly that in north Belfast.”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagraí go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for his answer. I know that he has been talking a lot today, as has everyone, about resources, but, since it has been such a success, can he outline what guidance is available to other schools that might want to follow the same route and become eco-schools?”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagraí go dtí seo. Does any aspect of the training that the Minister has talked about involve financial responsibilities?”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Chomhalta as an fhreagra sin. I thank the Member for his answer. As he knows, Pride is also an internationally celebrated day, especially in Belfast. Is any consideration being given to externally lighting the Building on Pride day?”
“In making recommendations of preferred outcomes, the Committee is content that those outcomes are in keeping with the key principles that it agreed at the start. It is also confident that the mechanisms that have been recommended protect the integrity of the institutions and individuals involved. I am therefore content to commend the report to the Assembly.”
“The Committee recognised similar reputational risks attached to plenary appearances as before. However, it believed that some benefit existed in creating a Standing Order to facilitate the AGNI attending a nominated Committee when the report is laid. This should be only at the Committee's request but would allow an opportunity for the AGNI to make a statement and/or answer questions on the content of the report. The Committee recommends that the nominated Committee should be the Committee for Justice. <BR /> <BR />Obviously, I could go into a lot more detail, and I am sure that Members are delighted that I am not going to. However, I will bring my remarks to a close by stressing again the detailed consideration that has been given to all the options identified.”
“Therefore, it recommends that no change to Standing Orders be made on that. The Committee gave brief consideration to whether any benefit was to be gained by codifying a role for the AGNI in giving views on Bills prior to Final Stage. However, it was agreed that the AGNI's role in advising the Executive created a conflict of interests, and the matter was set aside. <BR /> <BR />The last area covered in that section of the report is the AGNI's annual report. The AGNI is required by law to produce an annual report. It must be submitted to the First Minister and deputy First Minister, who are required to lay it in the Assembly. That means that a copy of the report is placed in the Assembly Business Office, where it is available to all Members. It is lodged in the public domain only when the AGNI publishes it on his website.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Committee then considered the power given to the AGNI in legislation to consider and refer Bills after Final Stage for a decision on legislative competence. In that category, too, the Committee identified a reputational risk in calling the AGNI to plenary. For example, if the AGNI was asked inappropriate questions, it could be perceived as the Assembly questioning the AGNI's statutory right to refer Bills. Mitigating that risk from the Chair would be very difficult in practice, therefore the option was discounted. <BR /> <BR />The Committee also looked at what benefit was derived from codifying the AGNI's attendance at Committee in that regard. However, it agreed that such a Standing Order would merely formalise a process that was already permissible.”
“The AGNI then either could not or would not answer. That could be perceived as an Assembly being powerless to hold the AGNI to account or that the AGNI was being unhelpful or lacking transparency. <BR /> <BR />The Committee finally agreed that the risk outweighed any perceived benefit and decided to recommend against setting up an oral Question Time for the AGNI. It considered the option of questions for written answer, but it recognised that, as no memorandum of understanding was in place, setting response times and rules would be difficult. The Committee also recognised that, as nothing prevented the AGNI answering questions that were sent directly to him at present, there was nothing to be gained by making provision in Standing Orders in that regard.”
“The AGNI would be required to register and declare interests in the same way as a Member. He would be prohibited from advocating on any matter on behalf of anyone else for payment or benefit. If an alleged breach were to occur, the Assembly's Commissioner for Standards would investigate it. The report from such an investigation would be passed to the Committee on Standards and Privileges, which would decide whether to uphold the complaint and impose appropriate sanction if required. <BR /> <BR />The second work area concerns answering Assembly questions. The Committee identified several options but discarded a number that did not comply with underpinning principles or that posed significant reputational risk. For example, if the AGNI attended plenary, he could be asked questions on matters that were sub judice.”
“No discussion of that would be complete without mentioning the work of the Committee on Standards and Privileges on it. The Standards and Privileges Committee considered the matter in detail during the last mandate. It revisited its findings in this mandate and confirmed to the Committee on Procedures that they were still valid. After consideration of its conclusions, the Committee on Procedures was content to endorse the findings and, therefore, has recommended that a distinct Standing Order be drafted to cover the matter. <BR /> <BR />No doubt the Chairperson of the Committee on Standards and Privileges will wish to speak to that aspect of the report in more detail, so I will restrict my remarks to a brief outline of the proposed requirements of the Standing Order.”
“The five work areas considered are detailed in the report, but, briefly, they cover the impartiality of the office and the registration of interests; answering Assembly questions; the referral of Bills after Final Stage; the scrutiny of the AGNI's annual report; and scrutiny of statutory rules brought by the AGNI. The first four are the basis of the report before the House today. The last is still being considered and will be brought to the Assembly as part 2 of the report in due course. For today, though, I will restrict further remarks to a brief outline of the areas covered in the report and the reasons for its recommendations. <BR /> <BR />The first area is titled "impartiality of the office and registration of interests".”
“To achieve this, the Committee discussed a set of key principles, which, it agreed, would be used to underpin its evaluation of options. <BR /> <BR />As these principles are detailed in the report, I will mention only one as an example. This is the first and suggests that, as the AGNI is not a duly elected Member of the Assembly, he should not automatically be afforded the privileges of that office. Applying that principle meant that a number of options that afforded the AGNI an automatic right to appear in plenary or Committee could be discounted. Applying the agreed principles as a baseline reduced the matrix to a more manageable size, and the Committee moved on to more detailed evaluation.”
“<BR /> <BR />Having recognised this, the Committee began to examine the role and devise a model from scratch. Its first step was to identify aspects of the role where participation in Assembly proceedings might be of benefit, either by providing enhanced scrutiny or added value to proceedings, both Committee and plenary. If any such areas were identified, the Committee went on to examine whether such participation needed to be codified in Standing Orders. <BR /> <BR />Five main areas of work were identified as worthy of further consideration; however, a number of options for participation in each area were found, and this resulted in an extensive matrix that needed to be evaluated. The Committee agreed that a strategic approach to assessing them was required.”
“However, no resolution was reached by the end of that mandate, and the matter passed into the legacy report and then to the present Committee on Procedures. <BR /> <BR />At first glance, this seemed a fairly straightforward matter. Closer examination of models used for law officers in other jurisdictions showed that it was not. Some parts of the models were defined in legislation; others arose from constitutional convention, custom and practice; but they had all been adapted to suit specific devolution settlements and/or unique legal arrangements in the different areas. Although the Committee looked at modifying existing models, it soon became clear that this would not work, the reason being the statutory requirement that the role of AGNI be non-political. This is not true of any other legislatures examined.”
“This report is slightly unusual, because it covers only part of a Committee inquiry. This is necessary because of the complexity of the issues being considered and the care and diligence with which the Committee has approached the inquiry. <BR /> <BR />The inquiry is on section 25 of the Justice Act 2002. This permits the Attorney General to participate in proceedings of the Assembly, but only to the extent permitted by Standing Orders and it expressly forbids him from voting. The provision has been in existence for some time. However, there has been no interpretation of the legislation in practice, despite predecessor Committees having wrestled with the matter. During the 2007 to 2011 mandate, both the Procedures Committee and the Committee on Standards and Privileges examined the matter.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I beg to move”
“I am not challenging the Chair; I am merely pointing out that I am asking a question.”
“I have asked a question, with respect. I am quoting this, and I want to ask whether the Minister stands over it. If I could finish —”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for his answer. Since he is talking about truth and is quoting from other people, does he agree with this quote from himself? He said on 12 January:”