Gerry Kelly
North Belfast · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for his statement. Accountability and implementation have been mentioned a number of times. The test in all of this will be the speed of implementation. I declare an interest, in that my sister Peggy, who was next in the family to me, spent time in Muckamore many years ago.”
“I will finish in one second. When I asked her how she was doing, she said that she wanted me to go and help others. That is what she spent our time together talking about. <BR /> <BR />We are talking not just about closing Muckamore but about resettling people.”
“I understand that the amendment is not a panacea. Ultimately, however, it will improve the tools at the police's disposal. <BR /> <BR />There is a further issue regarding what happens to the vehicles once they are seized.”
“Sinn Féin supports all three of the amendments in group five. As we know, amendment Nos 74 and 75 will introduce new powers to allow the police do drug testing at checkpoints and road traffic collisions, which will bring drug testing in line with existing alcohol breath testing. It is a necessary step to ensure public safety.”
“We talked about regulations earlier, and a number of Members said that we may have to return to the issue. I understand that we are dealing with one particular issue in the Bill, but the Minister may agree that it is something that we should come back to as our experience of what is happening grows.”
“<BR /> <BR />In West Belfast just last week, at least two children were hospitalised as a result of collisions involving e-scooters and e-bikes, including one in which a young person's head went through the back window of a car. They are very lucky to be alive.”
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“Yes, Nelson Mandela. Can I ask my question? Does he believe that he was a terrorist and therefore should not be revered in life and in death for all that he did? Can he explain the difference that he would make there? All this, including the Bill that is being brought forward by Tom Elliott, is based around this conviction for terrorism. Does he think that James Connolly should be treated as a terrorist in our history?”
“I have a question for the Member: does he believe that, for instance, Nelson Mandela —”
“<BR /> <BR />The final motion relates to Standing Order 6, which already sets out the procedure to be followed if the office of Speaker becomes vacant during an Assembly term, but does not specify who would take the Chair for the purposes of that election. The proposed amendment will insert additional text into Standing Order 6 to make it clear that an Acting Speaker takes the Chair in these circumstances. The amendments to Standing Orders 4 and 6 will address the gaps in Standing Orders and clarify the procedures for the election of a Speaker during a mandate. <BR /> <BR />In closing, a Cheann Comhairle, Mr Speaker, the three motions before the House are straightforward — famous last words — and on behalf of the Committee on Procedures, I commend them to the House.”
“<BR /> <BR />The other two motions relate to the election of a Speaker during a mandate. Standing Order 4 currently sets out the procedure for the election of a Speaker at a meeting of a new Assembly but is silent on the procedure to be followed if a Speaker indicates his intention to resign during an Assembly term. The proposed amendment will insert a new Standing Order 4A to address this, by describing how the Speaker resigns and clarifying the procedures for the election of a new Speaker during an Assembly term. The proposed amendment also commits the outgoing Speaker to take the Chair for the proceedings to elect a successor.”
“On behalf of the Committee on Procedures, I am pleased to bring these motions to amend Standing Orders to the House today. The first relates to topical questions; the other two relate to the election of a Speaker during a mandate. This may seem a strange combination, but it is purely for the sake of expediency, rather than any link between them. <BR /> <BR />The first motion relates to Standing Order 20A(4). On 9 December 2014, the Assembly approved the Committee's report on the review of topical questions. One of the recommendations in the report was that, as for listed oral questions, the first topical question may not be from a Member of the same party as the Minister. Today's motion will give effect to that recommendation by amending Standing Orders accordingly.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I beg to move”
“It is interesting that the Minister is laughing, but it is not the Minister who is bringing this forward. Maybe he can answer that when he eventually gets up. <BR /> <BR />The British Home Secretary can change the remit without agreement, and we can and should deal with civil recovery, which I did not get to deal with. Very early on, we asked for a bespoke process, and the Minister has refused to do that. <BR /> <BR />Lastly, the police say that, in the end, the only argument they have is over resource. If the argument is over resource, let us argue for more resource.”
“I understand that the SDLP has a letter from the British Home Secretary. I suppose the question is: if it can put that in a letter, why did it not just change the Order in Council? I assume that SDLP Members will answer that when they get up. If the party is sincere in what it says, why does it not do that? <BR /> <BR />Sinn Féin will vote against the motion on the basis that it is an underhand process, which another colleague will deal with shortly —”
“I know that the SDLP will be up after me, but I want to quote from its document to the Stormont House Agreement:”
“The question is this: will the NCA then become that arresting arm? At the moment, when the PSNI takes over any operation, it is accountable under all the accountability mechanisms. That is the safeguard.”
“<BR /> <BR />However, under this order, the British Home Secretary can extend the power and remit of the NCA, without reference back to or the agreement of the Executive, the Assembly or even her own Westminster Parliament — she does not have to go back to it either. At any time, and she was urged to do so, the British Home Secretary could have chosen to remove that power or diminish its application, and that she did not is a difficulty. It also opens up a second question, which is to do with the relationship of the NCA with MI5 and other security services. Unfortunately, we have to deal with empirical experience that we have of what used to be called the "secret services", not just in the North but, more recently, in Iraq and Afghanistan. However, let us deal with Ireland. At the moment, MI5 has no arresting arm.”
“Accountability is again the issue at the core of the debate, and changes have been achieved. I find it interesting that the Member who spoke previously went through a list of those changes, particularly on accountability, because unionists wanted to sign up to the NCA before any of that was agreed. Indeed, they would have signed up to it at that time and have criticised us since for trying to get more out of it. Without repeating what the Member said, the changes that have been achieved are to the Policing Board's mechanisms, the accountability of the ombudsman, Criminal Justice Inspection and, indeed, the HMIC, and we welcome all of that.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I will start with the basics: the Good Friday Agreement achieved the architecture of a new beginning to policing, and it is Sinn Féin's view that the PSNI is more than capable of policing with the community, which is the core function of policing. It has a duty to do that and to tackle all crime, including serious and organised crime. We support the police fully in that endeavour, with the only caveat being that they are accountable at all times. That was at the core of the policing issue as well. <BR /> <BR />There has been a long debate, discussion and negotiation on the issue of the NCA, which is, of course, already active in the North. There is cooperation with the gardaí and the PSNI, and NCA expertise is also available to them.”
“Mo bhuíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagraí go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for the answer up to now. It is interesting that he says that it is out for consultation and then tells us what his view of it is. It seems that the Minister has already come to a conclusion about rolling change or rolling appointments, and, of course, that is the great difficulty in it because you will have independent members. Is the Minister aware that a number of councillors have already rejected this idea? He puts it to the front himself, and he will know that this will have an impact on the independence of independent members on the basis that they will be reviewed on a yearly basis. How can they be independent and maintain that position?”
“He needs to take all that into consideration. I do not think that there is enough capacity in the area to deal with a site of this size.”
“I think that one takes 80,000 tons, and I am told that the other takes 300,000 tons. In that case, the question of the need for the site gets bigger and bigger. As Pam Cameron said, Bombardier safeguards a huge number of jobs, while this will take jobs out of the industry. <BR /> <BR />So as not to be too repetitive, I will conclude on that. It is the wrong location. I am disappointed that the Minister is not here for the Adjournment debate, so I urge him to read Hansard and to realise that this is a cross-party objection. It reflects the objections of a huge number of people in the area. I urge him to take cognisance of that before making any decision. The concerns relate to scale, visual and traffic impact, adequacy of the road network and the impact that it would have on road safety and the environment.”
“The length of the contract, which was mentioned, is significant and important. There will be 30-year contracts. If people buy in to that, they will have to supply the amount of waste as part of that contract. There is also an issue of waste management, especially with recycling and advancing technology. As far as I can see, there is no get-out clause for any advancement in recycling. It actually buys people and, indeed, councils into that very long contract and into having to provide agreed amounts. It will damage the recycling process and investment in it. <BR /> <BR />I think that need is also crucial. I have already gone through some of the issues on that, as have other Members. It is a huge question: is it needed? There is the Bombardier site, and there is the Lisburn site.”
“<BR /> <BR />The traffic situation will also change massively, with the possibility of well over 500 additional vehicles in the area daily. They will go through residential areas, and you do not have to use your imagination to realise that that will cause great danger to people in those areas. <BR /> <BR />On the visual impact, the site is in an area of landscape character and in proximity to another designated area of high scenic beauty. There will be a chimney stack that, at 95 metres, will be the highest building, if it can be called that, in the North. That is before we get to the plume of smoke, which may go 30 metres into the sky. You will be able to see it from a very long distance away.”
“<BR /> <BR />The road network is inadequate. I presume that, like me, Members have been around the site and looked at it. The vehicles that will use the road will include HGVs and other industrial vehicles, as well as street-cleaning vehicles etc. That will bring its own difficulties. <BR /> <BR />I am also told that Arc21 has already started to vest land. When I was at the site on a rainy day not so long ago, people came out of their houses to talk to me. I was going up not to see them but the site. They said that they were worried about the vesting procedure. We know, through the No-Arc21 group, that the vast majority of the farmers do not want to sell. We also know that vesting is a long and arduous process.”
“<BR /> <BR />Residents and experts in the industry have made objections about the incinerator; in fact, there has been a series of objections. It is less than a kilometre from old communities and from new and growing ones, and it will, of course, affect house prices and the health and quality of life of the people in the surrounding area. I have been at the site, which is surrounded by working farmland. As some Members said, if it is needed — that is a big question — it should have been sited in an industrial site that can handle it. I repeat that the farmland is active. <BR /> <BR />As I said, we have been told by experts that between 116,000 tons and 142,000 tons of domestic waste — it varies — are produced in the whole of the North per annum; yet, this is for 300,000 tons per annum. Where will the waste come from?”
“I have been at meetings at which there were between 350 and 400 people, so you can see that there is a huge swell of residents who are against the waste management plant being sited on the Hightown Road or Mallusk area. <BR /> <BR />Just to put it into perspective so that we know what size of a project we are looking at, the plant has been described as a Wembley Stadium-sized project that will handle some 300,000 tons. What is confusing about it is that, when you go into the statistics, you see that there is not enough domestic waste in the whole of the North for that. I wonder why they are trying to put in something of that size. Of course, a significant amount of taxpayers' money has already gone into the preparation of the site, which, in itself, is a difficultly.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Chomhalta as an ábhar a thabhairt os ár gcomhair inniu. I thank Pam Cameron for bringing this important issue to the House. <BR /> <BR />We are in danger of breaking into agreement. The issues have been well covered. I will cover some of them briefly, but I think that the arguments have been well made by the previous Members who spoke. I want to thank the No-Arc21 group, which put all the work together. I have met its members a number of times and have been at its meetings. The group gave very good briefing points for the debate, and they deserve credit for all their work. A wide range of residents is involved; you know the numbers. Some 3,000 objections have been made to the Planning Service, and that is due to rise further.”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagraí go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for his answer. I know that the question that I put to him was not new. He quoted article 50(5) and said that full regard had to be taken by the Department. Out there, the view is that planning just ignores these reports, which obviously cost a lot of money. Does he have any notion of how he could strengthen conservation officers' power through legislation or in some other way so that their reports would actually have an impact? The experience in councils, and it has been raised many times here, too, is that they are ignored.”
“The Act also prescribes the form of a solemn affirmation. However, this has not been precisely replicated in Standing Order 71, which omits the requirement for the person affirming to give their name and the words "and affirm". Today’s motion will rectify this and ensure that Standing Orders reflect the requirements of the Oaths Act. On behalf of the Committee on Procedures, I commend the motion to the House.”
“Standing Order 71 is somewhat different, as it does not require a person to object to being sworn but refers to a person who "prefers to affirm". To reflect the wording of the Oaths Act, it is proposed that the wording is amended to read:”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. On behalf of the Committee on Procedures, I am pleased to bring the motion to the House, which proposes an amendment to Standing Order 71. Standing Order 71 sets out the form of the oath administered to witnesses. However, the current wording is not consistent with the Oaths Act 1978. The Act states:”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagraí go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for his answer. Of course, I agree with him that we need the best care for the children involved. However, he will understand that people are worried, because of the transition and the passing over of services, about what services will remain in Belfast from January 2015. Can he explain that?”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagra go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for his answer up to now. After that explanation, maybe he will tell us how the post of commissioner will be funded. How will the funding be dealt with?”
“You are going to get up later, so by all means speak then. <BR /> <BR />Sinn Féin is up for asset recovery from those involved in serious and organised crime. <BR /> <BR />There is absolutely nothing to fear from accountability. I really do not understand what you are afraid of. The Member spoke about the ombudsman: the easy answer to that is that that will be involved if we can get the full suite of accountability mechanisms, which was agreed in Patten and should be brought in here. Our experience is that if you leave the loophole — there is a mass of empirical evidence — it will be abused, and that is what we are trying to avoid in this case. <BR /> <BR />I support the amendment. We should be united, not divided, in arguing for the necessary accountability measures.”
“My party and, I believe, other parties put it to him well before that power ceased last October, I think, that he could have a bespoke process of asset recovery that would take the assets of those involved in serious and organised crime who are destroying our society. He has refused and continues to refuse to go down the road of having an asset recovery process that can be used here.”
“Folks, you will have your chance to come back on all this. <BR /> <BR />What are the unionists and, indeed, the British Home Secretary afraid of? If they agree that our police officers should be accountable — they have agreed to that — what is the problem? Why not make NCA officers accountable also? It is one of the things that I cannot understand, except that you may not agree to police officers themselves being accountable and that you want to go back to the past when that was the case. <BR /> <BR />Asset recovery is raised again and again. In this instance, the Justice Minister — I am sure that he will speak about it when he gets up — has the power to deal with asset recovery.”
“If they want the powers of a police officer, make them as accountable as all other police officers are in this jurisdiction in the North.”
“Maybe the hecklers will keep quiet, and I will get on with it. <BR /> <BR />I have spoken to Keith Bristow, and I know that he wants further cooperation: why would he not? I know that he wants further powers. In a certain way, people who are offered further powers always want them. Maybe that is fairly normal, except if you are in the DUP. Recently they were offered more powers similar to those that have been offered to Scotland and other places, but they seemed to refuse them. Specifically, Keith Bristow wanted the power of police officer for those in the NCA — incidentally, excluding himself. Of course, the British Home Secretary can sort that out. All she has to do is make them accountable to all the mechanisms.”
“On child exploitation, which was mentioned, on drugs trafficking, on cross-border smuggling, on human trafficking — on all those accounts — the answer is no, because they are given the cooperation that is necessary to bring to book the people who are destroying our society. A perfect example of that quite recently was the finding of £100 million worth of drugs on a ship off the coast of Ireland, which the NCA was involved in and an Garda Síochána then moved on. They did not have to do that. It was an Garda Síochána who had the accountability mechanism there.”
“No, I will not give way. <BR /> <BR />You will also know that unionists signed up to Patten and eventually, after a long debate, to the transfer of those powers in 2010. Another myth that unionists are promoting — this debate came up close to a year ago — is that the pursuit of organised crime has ceased. Nothing could be further from the truth. The NCA cooperates with an Garda Síochána, the European law enforcement agencies, Interpol and other law enforcement agencies. This question needs to be asked: is the NCA refusing to give information or to cooperate with an Garda Síochána or any other force? The answer to that is no. Most importantly, is it refusing to give any of the information or cooperation that the PSNI needs? No, it is not.”
“No. You will have your chance to come back. <BR /> <BR />More recently, some ex-RUC people who left and got away from the accountability measures brought in by Patten came back in through the retire/rehire revolving door. We have seen that that was much abused in terms of where they were, which created a huge difficulty. At least some of them left specifically because there were accountability mechanisms there, so that they would come back as temporary workers and not be police officers, and then they went back to the old habits of non-accountability. I think that unionists are hankering back to the old situation, and, when there is an opportunity to move forward, they will not take that up.”
“Back in those times, you had a force within a force; you had shoot to kill; you had state agents involved in crime, right up to and including murder; you had confessions beaten out of people going through interrogation centres; and you had a police force — not a service — that acted as front line troops and was involved in collusion and corruption. If you want to know why we are so strong on the issue, the history and the evidence shows why. Let me say this: more recently —”
“Beidh mé ag labhairt in aghaidh an rúin seo. I will speak against the motion and for the amendment. <BR /> <BR />Let us make very clear some of the myths and, at minimum, exaggerations being pointed out here. The NCA already operates in the North on non-devolved matters. That means things like immigration, customs-related crime, fuel laundering and smuggling, which are some of the things that Mr Irwin mentioned. In a way, the core issues are simple, and he pointed them out. The first one is accountability, which was crucial to Patten, crucial to us and crucial to the new beginning to policing. I will return to assets recovery a bit later. <BR /> <BR />Why do we not want them to be unaccountable? Because our history has demonstrated what unaccountability does.”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Chéad-Aire as a fhreagra. I thank the First Minister for his answer up to now. Let me not join him in welcoming the result of the referendum. However, there has been a referendum, and the issue at stake here — and I ask the First Minister again — is that there is certainly an impression that the DUP is not up for more power being brought to the Assembly. Does he not agree that, while Scotland is arguing for more powers, especially in the fiscal area with taxes and other matters, we should get as much power here as possible so that we can have an impact on the economy and the lives of people in the North as opposed to leaving it to the whim of people in London?”
“William Humphrey will know that the Hammer and the youth club in Ardoyne do many things together.”
“— the fleadh's committee. I would argue that we should not do that and that people should take a more sensible approach to this. Yes, it was wrong. Yes, it should not have happened. The fleadh serves the people well on a cross-community basis.”
“I would hope that some of the people across the Floor would condemn some of the remarks made on those occasions. <BR /> <BR />So, it is the issue of communal punishment that I entirely disagree with. Of course, the examples that I have given are not even comparable with the Druids. The Druids are a band that were invited here. The organisers are going to review guidelines. The Druids had nothing to do with organising the fleadh and are not involved on —”
“<BR /> <BR />Are unionists here going to argue that the money for bonfires should be taken away because of the sectarianism that we see at some of them, or even that those particular bonfires should be banned on that basis? There is funding that goes to bonfires as well. Are they arguing that, if bands sing sectarian songs, all the funding should be taken away from bands, or even from those particular bands? I have never heard that from the unionists before. Are they going to take funding away from those particular bands because of what someone may have said? There are plenty of sectarian comments made in bands. Are they arguing for collective punishment for that? <BR /> <BR />Orange Order figures have made sectarian remarks. Should the whole of the Orange Order be punished because of someone who says such things?”
“<BR /> <BR />The Ardoyne people are a very proud and law-abiding people, and, of course, the fleadh is a cross-community grouping. Nelson McCausland, who was here earlier, was one of the first unionist politicians whom I remember sitting with me on a panel on the Ardoyne Fleadh to debate these things. The fleadh has always reached out and tried to bring in other people from outside the area to hear their points of view, and that continued this year. <BR /> <BR />The motion calls for a collective punishment. People across the Chamber have got up many times and argued against collective punishment, collective condemnation and all of that, yet the motion is full of that. I think that we have to be careful that we do not get too high on the horse.”
“So, action was taken immediately. <BR /> <BR />Nelson McCausland said that the fleadh has been going on a long time. It has been going on something like 24 years. I think that it is worth saying that it is there to celebrate culture in a positive way. That is what it was set up for, and that is what it continues to do. It is there as an alternative to bonfires, for instance, and the negativity and antisocial behaviour that they produce. I have to say that it has been very successful in doing that. Of course, we have just come through one of the most peaceful summers that any of us can remember. I think that, to put this in context, we need to remember all of that. This is a very successful alternative to what we have faced in previous summers.”
“In a statement made almost immediately after, the chair of the fleadh said:”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Beidh mé ag labhairt in aghaidh an phríomh-rúin. I will be speaking against the motion and amendment No 1, but we are prepared to support amendment No 2 from the Alliance Party. <BR /> <BR />It might be worth starting off by saying what I think we can all agree on: the remarks about Orangemen were not only wrong but offensive and insulting, and they should not have happened. I, as a republican, have spent a lifetime trying to get British soldiers out of Ireland, so I will not be hypocritical on that aspect of it. I would be less than honest if I did that. However, let me emphasise that I would not articulate it in the same way as the individual did on that night. <BR /> <BR />It is important to say that the person who spoke for the Druids on the stage does not speak for anyone but themselves.”