Gerry Kelly
North Belfast · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for his statement. Accountability and implementation have been mentioned a number of times. The test in all of this will be the speed of implementation. I declare an interest, in that my sister Peggy, who was next in the family to me, spent time in Muckamore many years ago.”
“I will finish in one second. When I asked her how she was doing, she said that she wanted me to go and help others. That is what she spent our time together talking about. <BR /> <BR />We are talking not just about closing Muckamore but about resettling people.”
“I understand that the amendment is not a panacea. Ultimately, however, it will improve the tools at the police's disposal. <BR /> <BR />There is a further issue regarding what happens to the vehicles once they are seized.”
“Sinn Féin supports all three of the amendments in group five. As we know, amendment Nos 74 and 75 will introduce new powers to allow the police do drug testing at checkpoints and road traffic collisions, which will bring drug testing in line with existing alcohol breath testing. It is a necessary step to ensure public safety.”
“We talked about regulations earlier, and a number of Members said that we may have to return to the issue. I understand that we are dealing with one particular issue in the Bill, but the Minister may agree that it is something that we should come back to as our experience of what is happening grows.”
“<BR /> <BR />In West Belfast just last week, at least two children were hospitalised as a result of collisions involving e-scooters and e-bikes, including one in which a young person's head went through the back window of a car. They are very lucky to be alive.”
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“A good place to start is not with whataboutery — although it might be too late for that — but with having a realistic view of the situation. Crime gangs are orchestrating the violence for their own ends. There can be no justification for the violence, so let us accept no pseudo rationale for it. We must collectively challenge and face down those who are putting stones, bottles, fireworks and petrol bombs into children's hands. <BR /> <BR />My experience, which is similar to that which was described by Deirdre Hargey, is that those whose intent is the escalation of unrest will always move that unrest near to interfaces and try to turn it into a tit-for-tat situation. In fact, I made that very point in a Policing Board meeting with the Chief Constable a couple of days ago.”
“When I started to write these notes, over 40 police officers had been injured. We now know that up to 55 have been injured. I want to join with others in the Chamber to wish those officers a speedy recovery. Of course, as other Members have mentioned, there are civilians who have also suffered damage as a result of the violence. Last night, there was mayhem at what should have been a historic interface in Belfast. I say "historic" because it should have been a thing of the past that, perhaps, tourists or people with an interest would go to look at, or whatever. I then spent hours at Lanark Way, engaging with the police and others on the ground, trying, along with many others, as I said, to de-escalate the confrontations. That is what we, as politicians, need to do here; de-escalate the rhetoric and show leadership.”
“It is important that, after the past week of violence and destruction, the motion gets unanimous agreement. I am glad to hear that the Executive have put out a statement, although I have not seen it yet. The immediate message, of course, is that the violence needs to stop and needs to stop now. There needs to be one voice on this issue, whatever the disagreements are on other issues.”
“I support the motion, and I thank Naomi Long for bringing it forward at this time.”
“I finish by emphasising what I said earlier: there is an imperative on men not just to listen to women but to amplify what they say so that we can all reduce misogyny and violence drastically until it becomes a thing of the past.”
“When the retired judge John Gillen spoke in the media yesterday, I think it was, I noticed that he mentioned specifically that the judiciary needs that training also. <BR /> <BR />I was pleased to see mandatory training for police officers in the Domestic Abuse and Civil Proceedings Act in order to allow them to police the newly introduced domestic abuse offence. Training needs to be rolled out on all forms of violence against women and girls, including issues such as harassment, stalking and sexual violence.”
“<BR /> <BR />A YouGov survey that was carried out by UN Women UK found that only 4% of women reported incidents of sexual harassment. That is a shockingly low figure and a damning indictment of how the criminal justice system has failed women for too long. There is a responsibility on the police to take complaints of sexual harassment and other forms of violence seriously. As a member of the Policing Board, I know that moves have been made in that area, but they have not been enough, by any stretch of the imagination. The police need to be given sufficient training to allow them to effectively investigate claims of violence against women and girls and to spot offences and gather evidence so that those cases can be effectively prosecuted. There also needs to be training in the Public Prosecution Service and the judiciary.”
“World Health Organization statistics show that 82% of the victims of intimate partner homicides are women. <BR /> <BR />The discussion should not be focused on how women can protect themselves but on how men challenge and change their behaviours. That does not just mean avoiding being a perpetrator but challenging other men and calling out insulting or inappropriate behaviour. Often, misogynistic comments are passed off as jokes. However, what starts as jokes about women are insults. Those insults feed into a culture of misogyny, which leads to more serious incidents of violence. We need to have the uncomfortable conversations, because the longer that we go on without tackling the fundamental problems of misogyny and sexism, the longer that levels of violence against women will remain unacceptable.”
“<BR /> <BR />Members talked about statistics, and I was struck by those in the recent investigation by UN Women UK. It found that 97% of women aged 18 to 24 had been sexually harassed and that a further 96% did not report those situations because they believed that it would make no difference at all. <BR /> <BR />What are we to do? I firmly believe that, as men, we need to listen to the voices of women and to amplify their voices. We need to change the attitudes that feed that violence. We know that men suffer violence too, and a number of Members said that, but this is about women and girls, and the research and statistics show that the overwhelming and vast majority of victims are women and that men perpetrate the majority of that violence.”
“I welcome the fact that a number of Members tabled the motion, and I am glad to be able to speak on it. <BR /> <BR />Over the last short while, I have heard a lot of the discourse about the issue. One of the things that really stood out for me was how women are taught to protect themselves, and Emma Sheerin shared some of the ways of doing that, which I had heard about on the radio. Many women walk home alone at night carrying keys between their fingers in case they have to fight someone off. They have to plan their route home to make sure that they are on busy roads with plenty of lights and cameras, just in case. They are taught to tuck their long hair into the backs of their coats, and they get male taxi drivers to drop them off a few doors away from their home as they worry about those taxi drivers knowing where they live.”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a ráiteas. I thank the Minister for her statement. I welcome the statement and its intent. I have been listening carefully to her answers. <BR /> <BR />Given that children, as everyone agrees, are at the centre of and are most affected by court proceedings and decisions, to what extent have the Children's Commissioner and other organisations, such as the Children's Law Centre, been involved in developing the private family law action plan? <BR /> <BR />The Minister mentioned mediation a number of times. I agree with that process because it could speed all of this up and it is a better process to deal with. If, for instance, partners reach agreement through mediation, does that become law, or does it remain mediational until it goes to court?”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a freagra. I thank the Minister for her answer. Last week, the Economy Committee heard from business leaders, who told us that the retained access to the EU single market must be supplemented by good relations with the EU going forward, as the Minister will know. In Belfast, we have consulates for other major trading partners, such as the US and China. I know that the Minister did say it in her answer, but her position is known. How does she justify her position on an EU office in Belfast, given the opportunity that it would provide to engage, in conjunction with the EU, on the enormous benefits for consumers?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle, agus gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagra go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for his answer up to now. Given what he reported, it looks like things do not come in ones, and the situation is serious. The Minister mentioned October and the number of cases that have been identified in different species since then. What level of cooperation is in place across Ireland to try to contain the situation in North/South terms?”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. The Minister will be aware, as it is within her remit, that there are 5,000 signatures against this. I understand that she cannot give her decision at the moment, but is she aware of the costs? One in Edmonton, in London, went from £650 million to £1·2 billion. Does she know anything about that? There was full cross-party support for the residents and against the incinerator: has that changed, or has the Minister been lobbied to change that?”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagra. I thank the Minister for his answer and the detail in it. <BR /> <BR />Minister, the Executive decisions on the introduction of restrictions and any decisions to lift or ease current restrictions must be firmly based on medical and scientific advice and evidence. Has the medical and scientific advice from the Chief Medical Officer (CMO) and the interim Chief Scientific Adviser (CSA) on the phased reopening of schools changed since last Thursday?”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagraí go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for his answers up to now. That was very comprehensive, so he may have answered some of the next questions that I ask. He will be aware, from a report by the National Parks and Wildlife Service, that the curlew population is down 96% and the worry is that it will be extinct within a decade. The Minister went through a comprehensive list of areas that are being assisted. I presume that the Minister is aware that the South — and, as he mentioned, Britain is doing something similar — appointed 30 officers to identify sites, and he discussed why sites have been identified. Is there any movement on that, or does the Minister intend to appoint more research officers to check that?”
“I would like some answers and to ensure that the families do not wait a long time for a report on what happened a few days ago.”
“I understand that the anger about that is shared across the community, especially by the Members who represent that area, because I heard that from them at a Policing Board meeting. There was no stopping, no arrests, no questions and no photographs taken. Nothing happened in that situation. <BR /> <BR />The distress and anger are palpable and widespread when you put those two things together, and confidence in policing has been massively damaged. People demand that the police are impartial, and there is a view that that is not being shown. I have other examples of funerals in Belfast where there have been similar interventions. I have been asked what questions need to be asked so I will ask the questions. What is the policy at the top? Who was in charge? What direction was given, and who is responsible for what we have seen?”
“The police intervention was, from the social media footage that I have seen, done in a very aggressive manner. Not only was there an arrest, but there was an arrest of a victim, Mark Sykes, who was quite young at time of the shootings. He was shot seven times and was lucky to survive. So, we are not just talking about the arrest of somebody who happened to be there; we are talking about the arrest of a victim, which added to the distress. <BR /> <BR />I have to compare that to the east Belfast incident, which was also on social media, in which up to 50 masked UVF gangsters — this is the important part — were, it was known, going into that area to violently intimidate at least one family out of their home.”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak on this matter. I think that it is fair to say that everybody in the House has seen the social media footage. I understand that we are dealing with social media, and we cannot make huge decisions on the basis of that. However, we also cannot ignore evidence that we see on it. <BR /> <BR />For a bit of background, last Friday was the twenty-ninth anniversary of the Sean Graham bookies massacre, which I remember, as I am sure many other Members do. Five people were shot dead, including a pensioner and a 15-year-old boy. The families have been waiting 29 years — I repeat, 29 years — for truth and justice. They had a much smaller commemoration than they would normally have, and, to my knowledge, they were socially distanced during that period, although I was not there.”
“While it is good to see this estate leading the way in Changing Places facilities and I am glad to hear that update, I am sure that the Minister will agree that these facilities are needed across the North. Will he update us on his plans to bring forward and include requirements for Changing Places facilities in building regulations?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle, agus gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an ráiteas seo. Thank you, Mr Speaker, and I thank the Minister for the statement. There is a lot in it to be welcomed. He mentioned investment in social housing: how many homes does he anticipate will be built in the coming year with that funding?”
“The Minister has dealt with this to a fair extent in some of the other answers, but will she detail the NSMC's role in the withdrawal agreement?”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as as a fhreagra go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for his answer. Does he agree that it is shameful that the Conservative Government are returning to an austerity narrative and seeking to penalise public-sector workers who, along with the front-line workers we were talking about, stepped up to deliver services during the pandemic?”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire Sóisearach as a fhreagraí go dtí seo. Will the Minister commit to progress the New Decade, New Approach commitment to give legal expression to sectarianism as a hate crime?”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a freagra go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for her answers up to now. My supplementary question has, to a great extent, been answered. It was about when we will see the beginning of the changes that were promised in the very welcome statement that she made. <BR /> <BR />The Minister will be aware of damage done to Housing Executive premises in Ardoyne caused by a faulty shower unit. Is there an investigation of that, especially given that, as I understand it, those shower units were on a recall list from 2018? My worry is that we may have a huge problem in social housing throughout the North.”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagra go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for his answer. I apologise. I met Paula Bradshaw, and hopefully I will not repeat her supplementary. Somewhere in the region of 95,000 people got the original shielding letter. Some of them have been in touch with me. There are a huge number of families involved. They are under greater threat. Will the Minister commit to sending an updated letter to those who were shielding to at least give them reassurance and any more information that is there?”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a freagra go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for her answer so far. She may have answered what I was going to ask, which is this: will the Minister and the Department lead on ring-fencing to meet objective need? I add that the Housing Executive has the power of vesting, which is seldom used. There are times when it needs to be used, especially for land banking. Will the Minister comment on that?”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a freagra go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for her answer. I accept that the multi-agency approach is very necessary and that this is not just down to the police. What should the Justice Department's specific way forward be, and what actions can be taken? I should have declared that I am a member of the Policing Board. There are issues around what can be physically done in some of those areas. There are small moves that can make a big difference, and they are happening on a daily basis.”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagra go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for his answers so far. I am glad to hear that the board is to be set up. How does the Minister intend to ensure that social value is at the heart of such procurement?”
“Minister, based on the answer that you have given and the example I have used, do you believe that it is either proportionate or appropriate to use serious crime legislation for peaceful protests or anything like that?”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a freagraí go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for her answers so far. She may have anticipated what my next question is about. As she said, the purpose of the Act, as the name suggests, is to deal with serious and organised crime offences. While I know that she cannot talk about any particular case, let me just say that, for background, the PSNI used the Act on five occasions in response to the Black Lives Matter protests on 6 June in Derry and Belfast, and that caused a lot of consternation. I may have said this already, but if I did not, I obviously have to say that I am member of the Policing Board.”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an fhreagra sin. I thank the Minister for her answers. I agree with a number of the things that she said. I agree that the need to improve North/South connectivity starts with North/South transport connections, to promote regionally balanced growth and address the effects of partition on the island's infrastructure. However, last week or the week before, Bus Éireann suspended the bus service from Dublin to Belfast indefinitely. Since the Minister is meeting her counterpart in Dublin, will she raise that issue to try to reverse that decision?”
“The Minister may have answered some of this, but what are the present licensing standards? We had some comments from a Member who spoke previously about trying to strengthen them, but surely there is an obligation on landlords and managing agents to deal with antisocial behaviour in the buildings that they own or manage.”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagraí go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for his answer up to now. In terms of the New Deal, New Approach (NDNA) commitment, will the Minister confirm his commitment that the Executive will bring forward concrete proposals to:”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a freagraí go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for her answers up to now. I agree with her that it is a cross-departmental and cross-agency issue for all those involved. Since the Minister has answered that part of the question, does she have any update on any conversations that she has had with the landlords in the area and what those have amounted to? Of course, the residents in the area are suffering. Are they being kept up to date by the various agencies, including, in particular, the Department, about what is going on?”
“I thank the Minister for his statement. Given that is clear from what the Minister and others say that young people from disadvantaged backgrounds are underachieving, does he agree that an approach based on objective need is required? He touched on this in an earlier answer.”
“I presume that we are in a good place — we are going into the recovery phase — but has the possibility of a second wave been factored into the Executive's plans?”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a freagra. I think that the Minister has answered my second question. It is a wide-ranging programme, and the outcomes that she describes are very heartening. It is unfortunate that it took COVID-19 to see how these sort of projects work. Effectively, the pilot is being moved forward, and I hope that the assessment comes back on that fairly quickly. That was a comment rather than a question.”
“The Minister has gone into what I was going to ask him. Will he commit to bringing to the Assembly an environment Bill that will build on existing environmental protections?”
“As you mentioned, B1, B2 and B3 have made fair progress, and I think that you also accepted that B4 has been through a series of delays. I congratulate the communities for persisting in that. <BR /> <BR />Will the First Minister ensure that the work under B4 will continue and that it will build safe, confident and resilient communities?”
“I notice from some of your remarks, Robbie, in the papers that he was your mentor and mentor to a number of people. There is always a place for that. <BR /> <BR />Personally and from the party, I send condolences to his wife, his son, his daughters, his grandchildren and his great-grandchildren. I think that you went through the list earlier, a LeasCheann Comhairle, and it shows how fulfilled a life he had. I am glad for him that he got a chance for a fairly long retirement. <BR /> <BR />He was a nice man. I suppose the best way to say it is that, clearly, we disagreed politically, but, in his disagreement, I never remember him being disagreeable. That is not an easy place to have through 30 years of being a politician. My condolences to the family. I think that that is the measure of the man.”
“I add my voice to the good wishes to Deirdre Hargey and Christopher Stalford, and congratulations to Carál Ní Chuilín on coming back as a Minister, again. <BR /> <BR />Somebody mentioned 1998, and I was elected at the same time as Billy Bell. I always remember him with a big mop of white hair. I am there now with the white hair, but I do not think that there are too many who are now left in the Assembly who were elected in 1998. I think that the numbers are dwindling. Robbie Butler has said a lot about him, as has Paul. Without going through his history, his history goes well before 1998. He became a political rep in 1975, so he served for a long time and, of course, became mayor of both Belfast and Lisburn. He retired in 2007, but I do not think that he really retired. I am not sure that politicians are able to retire.”
“I beg your pardon. I will finish with that: I think that the pension should go ahead, but it should go ahead on the basis that the British Government need to pay for it because the Executive cannot afford it.”
“On the issue of money, which is the issue that has been in the headlines most, it is Westminster legislation: the Assembly was not set up at the time. There is an issue around the British Government and the fact — it has been said by the First Minister and the deputy First Minister — that the Executive cannot afford it. I notice that the amount is £100 million. I hesitate to think that £100 million will cover this.”
“It has been in law since 2006, and the Stormont House Agreement has been in place since 2014. My party, and I presume every other party here, has been trying to get the structures set up and to get the pension for victims moved along from the beginning. <BR /> <BR />The issue — Paul Frew pointed towards Sinn Féin — is around the British Government trying to redefine what a victim is and deciding who should and should not be one. There has been an issue around a small number of people, and I accept that there is a deep difference of opinion between unionists and republicans, but the Government have tried to spread that out to involve hundreds of people who may not be eligible for this pension.”
“It is well past the time that they got the pension. <BR /> <BR />The pension has been agreed. I disagree with where the British Government have brought it to, in the same way that I disagree that they have not moved the Stormont House Agreement forward, because we are dealing with the pension, but we are also dealing with the wide-ranging issue of the community of victims and survivors who have suffered so much over that long period of time. To try to define it — or redefine it, as they are, of course, trying to redefine the whole issue around the structures around legacy — is the British Government's attempt to shy away from it. They are trying to be bloody-minded about where they are going with the issue, but there is a legal definition of a victim.”
“I am sorry that I am late and apologies for not hearing the beginning of this. Sinn Féin's position has been for a very long time that there is a wide range of people — I agree with Paul Frew, and he is the only Member that I have heard, so forgive me for that — in the victims and survivors' community, right across the board, and they deserve this payment. I also agree with him that the pension will not compensate them for the suffering that they have gone through — not only the deaths and the injuries that were caused, and that were caused to their families and to their extended families into another generation — but it is some acknowledgement of what they deserve. It is an acknowledgement from society that there was a conflict and that people were badly injured and continue to suffer over a long period of time.”
“Other members of the Policing Board are here besides me; Dolores and others. I am sure that we will pursue that collectively. We also need to ensure that work to combat domestic violence continues to get the highest priority in the interim and onwards into the future. It is not a new issue here. I am glad that it is under focus and that we have come to the point where we will, hopefully, bring in that legislation.”
“We have those balances, but, if we take the point that Paul Givan made earlier, what worries me is the period that it will take to bring that through. If there is no way to collapse that, and it is a year, that will be too long. Training will, then, need to be done. I imagine that it will be a bit later. I know that, as all those things have happened, the Minister has asked about resources. Some of those organisations, who are already experts on this stuff, need an input of resources and cannot wait until the end of that period for the help that is needed. It is more urgent even than the Bill, because we have to prepare for when we get to that point. <BR /> <BR />During that time, the Policing Board will work with the PSNI to assess whether that can be done more quickly while ensuring that it is done properly.”