Gerry Kelly
North Belfast · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for his statement. Accountability and implementation have been mentioned a number of times. The test in all of this will be the speed of implementation. I declare an interest, in that my sister Peggy, who was next in the family to me, spent time in Muckamore many years ago.”
“I will finish in one second. When I asked her how she was doing, she said that she wanted me to go and help others. That is what she spent our time together talking about. <BR /> <BR />We are talking not just about closing Muckamore but about resettling people.”
“I understand that the amendment is not a panacea. Ultimately, however, it will improve the tools at the police's disposal. <BR /> <BR />There is a further issue regarding what happens to the vehicles once they are seized.”
“Sinn Féin supports all three of the amendments in group five. As we know, amendment Nos 74 and 75 will introduce new powers to allow the police do drug testing at checkpoints and road traffic collisions, which will bring drug testing in line with existing alcohol breath testing. It is a necessary step to ensure public safety.”
“We talked about regulations earlier, and a number of Members said that we may have to return to the issue. I understand that we are dealing with one particular issue in the Bill, but the Minister may agree that it is something that we should come back to as our experience of what is happening grows.”
“<BR /> <BR />In West Belfast just last week, at least two children were hospitalised as a result of collisions involving e-scooters and e-bikes, including one in which a young person's head went through the back window of a car. They are very lucky to be alive.”
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“The Minister has probably answered my supplementary question, which is about the facilities at the station. If he has anything to add, that is OK. If he has not, he may have already answered my question.”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagra.”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. As a member of the Policing Board, I will also mention funding for the Justice Department and the number of police officers that we need. Further to what she said, does the deputy First Minister agree that a new funding model is needed, based on what is essential to deliver the public services that people deserve and need?”
“I will indeed. <BR /> <BR />It is about keeping an eye on that. This is the last thing. I mentioned Grenfell. I do not know whether this is within the Minister's bailiwick, but there is a debate because of the Victoria Square apartments. Six years is clearly not long enough when it comes to accountability for buildings. We need to look at that.”
“<BR /> <BR />For those people who are shifting down in size, it is about looking at the appropriateness of where they shift to. I think that it works on the basis that the Housing Executive does not approach them; they approach the Housing Executive. If you like, they are trying to do something to help the housing situation, so maybe a wee bit of extra thought should be given to where they might move to. Thought should be given to them going to an over-55s housing project, because that is what they are looking for. <BR /> <BR />I will finish off by talking about the tower blocks, which were mentioned. Around the blocks in New Lodge, after Grenfell, there were quite a number of moves to do with the danger there.”
“You see people trying to paint over that mould, and then you go back in six months to a year and see that the problem is still there. Accountability is something else to look at. <BR /> <BR />Downsizing: I say that as a person of my age. A lot of people want to downsize when everybody has flown the nest, and they go to the Housing Executive and say that they want to downsize. It is about giving attention to the appropriate place for them to downsize to. Going back a bit in history, it used to appal me that, when there were problem tenants around interface areas, there was a habit of moving them out of somewhere that they should have been moved out of, but of then concentrating them. Many a time, you landed in some interface area and, although you did not know how it started, found that there was a drink house and all of that.”
“One thing that comes up time and again and which never seems to go anywhere is vesting. Vesting is quite a hard negotiation — it normally involves negotiation — but it goes back to the fact that we have public land and are looking at what way to use it. Alongside that, I think that it was Nuala who mentioned the idea of this also being about refurbishment and maintenance. Examples have been given by other MLAs, and there will be more. Housing is the biggest issue that comes into my office, but there are also the issues of maintenance. <BR /> <BR />I am not attacking every landlord, but, when you start to deal with landlords, you see that there are some landlords with private properties in which there are young children and there is mould on the wall. I have been in and out of houses, flats and all that and have seen that.”
“Carál mentioned a particular example, but there are many examples of the rents that are now being paid, and they are unbelievable. Co-ownership allows people to avoid the huge private rents in those circumstances. However, as I said, the problem goes much wider. <BR /> <BR />Ring fencing is one of those terms that people use a lot, and then all the Ministers start panicking, because it is very hard to get ring fencing. The type of ring fencing that we are talking about, however, is for the areas where there is the most need. If there is a budget, another thing that might be looked at is the ring-fencing of part of the budget for that. The whole thing, of course, is to have a budget with which to build houses and reduce housing stress. That is what this whole conversation is about. <BR /> <BR />A number of things were mentioned.”
“In the past, we have had discussions about discrimination, where we have nearly said, "This is discrimination", and "That is discrimination". I think that if equality is built into the process, it affects people across the board. I am not just standing here as a republican or a nationalist talking about a particular area of North Belfast, but we should make equality central to that process to make sure that there is no discrimination, on whatever basis that might be. Maybe the Minister could also look at that, because we need to eliminate any type of discrimination. <BR /> <BR />I want to praise co-ownership, and maybe I need to expand on that. It has allowed people who would never be able to have a mortgage, especially at the moment, to have an opportunity, and it can make a big difference to their life.”
“One of the big issues is the amount of land that there is for building in North Belfast in order to meet the current demand. There is also council-owned land to consider. Article 15 of the Housing Order has been mentioned, but we could look at amending it in order to make the process easier. At the moment, under the Belfast development plan, there is an aim to have 20% social and affordable housing. That figure is way too low. We need to increase that to give a fair amount of flexibility, which could make a big difference to what we are dealing with. I agree that there are different types of housing tenure, and we have looked at the different aspects of that. However, social and affordable housing is the area where the stress is most felt. <BR /> <BR />We should mention equality in the context of all that.”
“I am not here to criticise the work of the Housing Executive and the housing associations; they have been doing good work, but we need to assist them. What can be done, Minister? I thank you for coming to the debate to listen, Minister. I know that your responsibility goes way beyond North Belfast, but we are talking about North Belfast. Of course, North Belfast is in the top four areas of need, along with west Belfast, Newry and Mourne, and Foyle. <BR /> <BR />Forgive me if I am repeating comments that have been made, but I think that some work was possibly done on the public land that the Department owns before you stepped into the role. I ask you to check that, because work that we can build on may already have been done.”
“I think that we are going to come to an agreement on the issue. I do not want to go over it all again, as the previous three Members to speak articulated it very well. I will emphasise a few of the issues, because they have been comprehensively covered, particularly the points system. That will be reviewed, but there needs to be a good consultation on that. There have been attempts to change the intimidation points system for quite a while, because it has been massively abused. <BR /> <BR />We know what the problem is. It was described earlier, and statistics were given, but, just to give one again, of 4,409 applications, 3,479 have come from people who are in housing stress, and only 655 homes have been built.”
“Does the Minister believe that the Barnett consequentials must include the 24% needs-based factor?”
“Thank you for the answer. Do you know the number or percentage of staff who have taken advantage of the flexibilities, which, I understand, are quite comprehensive?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle, agus gabhaim buíochas leis an Chéad-Aire as ucht a freagraí go dtí seo. Thank you, Mr Speaker, and I thank the First Minister for her answers so far. She talked about laying out the priorities. What is the impact on those priorities of the continuation of Tory austerity?”
“I have to retract what I said about feeling middle-aged: I feel a lot older after that. To set the record straight, since this will be all over the news, it is for Deputy Speaker. <BR /> <BR />Carál, you would have made a very good Chief Constable as well.”
“<BR /> <BR />Carál has been a Member of the Assembly since 2007, serving as Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure and Minister for Communities as well as acting as Sinn Féin's Chief Whip, so she has enormous experience in the institutions. She knows what it takes to ensure that they function as they should, and I have no doubt that she will bring the benefit of that experience to the position of Deputy Speaker. I also know that she will bring to the role her characteristic straight-talking and no-nonsense approach, which I have often witnessed at first hand. That will ensure that the Chamber provides a platform for respectful, positive and productive debate. Carál is a huge asset to the institutions, and we are privileged to have her. I am delighted to support her for the position of Deputy Chief Constable.”
“I should put it on record that, although Alec and I are older than you, we still feel a little middle-aged. <BR /> <BR />Is mór an onóir dom tacú le Carál Ní Chuilín don phost seo. It is my great privilege to support Carál Ní Chuilín MLA for the position of Deputy Speaker. Carál is a friend whom I have known for many decades, and, throughout that time, she has been a steadfast and determined advocate for the people of North Belfast and a relentless voice for the least well-off in all our communities, determined to ensure that they key principles of respect, equality and tolerance are hardwired into the institutions and, indeed, into society.”
“Apologies for my enthusiasm, especially after 20 years. I thank the Minister for his answer. He gave a comprehensive rundown of some of the funding. After the recklessness of Brexit, however, harm is still being done to services in communities. There was the recent loss of funding from the European social fund, and countless other services are at risk of closing. The Minister is engaging with Westminster and others. Is he engaging with the services that are involved, especially those that are in danger of being closed in the short term?”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagraí go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for his answers up to now.”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a freagraí go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for her answer so far and for giving that detail. I work with families and groups supporting young children with special educational needs, as well as youths. Their experience of SEN — mostly that of the families — is that there is a lack of youth services for the children. The Minister went through a list of services in North Belfast. Will the Minister review the provision — I think that she said that that is done on an ongoing basis — with a view to ensuring that those children and young people access the services that they require? I will finish with this: I know that there are services there, but the families say that their children do not get that type of service.”
“Cycling would be good for people's health, never mind anything else, so it would be massive if we could have that as part of the plan. <BR /> <BR />I thank the Deputy Speaker for allowing me that leeway because he knows that I am from North Belfast; I tried my best to connect things up. My last effort is that the Antrim Road would be the most effective, sustainable and logical area for the scheme in North Belfast.”
“Someone — I think that it was Chris — mentioned loading: you have to have a facility so that people can still load, otherwise you will have more congestion. That means setting out different areas where those people can cross to do that. We have done a lot of consultation with commuters and residents on that, and when you talk to residents and people who are affected, you find out more than you think you know. <BR /> <BR />There is a general acceptance that, despite the problems, phase 1 was a good thing. That is why phase 2 is getting the type of backing that it is getting, but, as a number of people have said, there are problems. If we can sort them out before we start, we will be well ahead. <BR /> <BR />Cycling was mentioned. Let me argue very forcefully for that. There is a dearth of facilities for cycling.”
“There are mental health and anti-suicide facilities at the Mater Hospital, the Carlisle Wellbeing and Treatment Centre, the Old See House, PIPS, AWARE, Lighthouse and the Bridge of Hope all within a reasonable distance. <BR /> <BR />Parking is a very important issue, despite what I said about the Falls Road. The issue is finding areas where you can decide to have parking. If we do not have the road any more, we need to look at how we can set up parking in areas that are free now. <BR /> <BR />The biggest issue is the pre-planning, which has been mentioned before. We need a plan well beforehand for co-design so that it can be looked at. That way decisions can be made, because you might end up saying, "That might have been a good idea on paper, but, practically, it is not a good idea because it will cause massive disruption".”
“There are loads of schools on the Antrim Road, but if becomes something that the schools can all use, it could take away a lot of the traffic caused by parents etc. <BR /> <BR />It has been mentioned that we can look at whether there are alternatives in an area, especially by way of public transport. For instance, on the Shore Road, you have the railway and the motorway. The argument that I make is that the Antrim Road has neither of those things and is a very congested area. <BR /> <BR />Tourism also comes into it. You have the zoo, the castle, Cavehill Country Park and the jail. I recommend that you go to the jail now that it is closed: as an ex-tenant, I know that it is much more comfortable now. There is also the Waterworks. <BR /> <BR />The connectivity with health should also be taken into consideration.”
“I know that that becomes more and more difficult and that there is an issue of resources. Cycling lanes, greenways and footpaths need to be included. There is congestion around schools and businesses.”
“<BR /> <BR />We know about the problems, one of which is parking. Paula mentioned the Falls Road and the RVH. If we had free parking for those who work in the hospital, a lot of the problems with cars in Beechmount and all those areas would be alleviated. The biggest problem is that the people who work all day in the hospital do not want to pay those amounts. <BR /> <BR />I support the Carryduff proposal. It is about thinking big. As Clare said, it will not sort out all the problems, but we should think big and go to Carryduff on one side and Glengormley on the other. There are 20,000 people in Glengormley. I do not know how many people there are in Carryduff, but the service would provide connectivity right into the city centre and back out again. For that reason, we need to look at extending it.”
“The Minister is as well, of course. I thank her for coming here. <BR /> <BR />Agreement has, to a great extent, burst out from all the things that have been said, so I will say just a couple of wee things, although they may be repetitious. <BR /> <BR />Consultation and co-design are crucial. We have to learn lessons. There are lessons to be learned from phase 1. I live on the route. I ended up having to dig up my garden to try to find somewhere to park my car, so I know about some of the problems. A consultation was done in North Belfast, and I presume, from what Members have said, that one was done in South Belfast. Consultation with all the stakeholders is very important. That includes businesses. There are over 100 businesses along the Antrim Road. I am sure that there are as many, or even more, along the Ormeau Road.”
“It may not have escaped people's attention that I am a Member for North Belfast, but —”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a freagraí go dtí seo. I agree with the Minister that we need social and affordable housing. It will make a huge difference. In the past, the housing issue has been used as a tool for discrimination. Will the Minister agree with me that building and allocation must be on the basis of objective need?”
“The Minister will be aware that Coláiste Feirste in west Belfast is hugely oversubscribed. She is probably also aware, given that she mentioned sign-ups to enrolment, that there is a huge list to get into the school. In light of our statutory duty to encourage and facilitate Irish-medium education, will the Minister detail where we are with the development of an additional campus for Coláiste Feirste?”
“I thought that I would get away with it. I ask the Minister what will be done and whether the Department will adopt the alleyways, because that is the step that is necessary to make anything out of them.”
“Minister, the last time that I raised the issue with you, you indicated that the Department did not keep any list or record of the number of unadopted alleyways. The original question was about alleyways. You know that, while the greening of alleyways is helpful, it does not deal with the problem. Some of the places cannot be accessed by residents, so I ask —”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Chéad Aire as a fhreagraí go dtí seo. I thank the First Minister for his answer. I note that he did not deny or, for that matter, confirm what was in the question. Let me say this: the days of unionist discrimination and exclusion are over. Does he accept that the DUP's anti-rights position belongs in the past and should stay there? The DUP can delay this, but it will not stop the progressive and necessary change for the better.”
“Could the Minister say something about that?”
“I have had a lot of calls about the Antrim Road in particular.”
“A number of people have said that bus drivers have transported our front-line workers during the pandemic. Actually, they are themselves front-line workers, and the attacks have shown that. The Minister also mentioned the passengers. What help are the passengers who were involved in these terrible incidents getting? There have been four incidents. <BR /> <BR />I agree that the rhetoric needs to be brought down. People, whether they are misinterpreting the rhetoric or whatever, use it to carry out these acts. <BR /> <BR />This is my last question. I think that you also said that the PSNI is working with Translink on the routes that will be affected. I assume that, being a representative of the same area as me, you have also received calls about why some of the routes are being closed down.”
“It is interesting that somebody wants to hear me.”
“I apologise for not getting to the Chamber for the first part of the question for urgent oral answer. Forgive me if I ask something that you have dealt with. I think that you have dealt with some of it before. <BR /> <BR />First, there is solidarity with the bus drivers and unequivocal condemnation across the House. The Minister mentioned the bus drivers. It has been said many times that they are the people who brought front-line workers —”
“However, it is important that, in the interests of the most efficient operation of the political institutions and to provide the most effective representation, elected parties should not be financially attracted into opposition. As mentioned in recommendation 1, that is at the centre of a lot of what we talk about on resources and procedures. The support available to opposition parties should not disadvantage other parties that choose to provide responsible leadership to the Executive. Any financial increase needs to take that into account and, critically, needs to be affordable, as I mentioned. <BR /> <BR />In that context, I ask the Assembly to approve AERC's recommendations on the outcome of the independent review, as laid out in the motion.”
“Sinn Féin supports that recommendation. However, we believe that any decisions in that regard must also be affordable and provide value for money. In most democratic assemblies, government office is not available to parties with smaller political mandates. It is, therefore, our view that parties should be encouraged to take up the opportunity to play a full part in the power-sharing arrangements. If parties choose not to take up that option on behalf of those who voted for them and instead choose to absent themselves from political office, they should, of course, be funded appropriately for their oppositional role. We must take full account of the unique power-sharing arrangements that derive from the Good Friday Agreement, which provide parties with sufficient support to avail themselves of the opportunity to hold ministerial office.”
“I give my condolences to Peter as well and wish him a speedy recovery. It was the first meeting that I have ever been to that someone not only joined but chaired via Zoom from hospital. <BR /> <BR />I thank Trevor Reaney for his helpful report to the Committee; the Chair went through that at some length, so I will not. <BR /> <BR />The review, as mentioned, was part of 'New Decade, New Approach', which states:”
“In the context of what the passengers on the buses had to go through, the driver who was threatened and the cars that have been burnt, is it not utterly irresponsible for DUP Ministers to boycott the North/South Ministerial Council (NSMC) while their party leader threatens to collapse the institutions?”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a freagra. We are still in the midst of a global health crisis that has cost thousands of lives here and, indeed, throughout the world. Our communities and economy have faced unprecedented upheaval, while our health service remains under intense pressure. Clearly, stable and secure political institutions are necessary to face all that as we go forward. Does the Minister agree, then, that the irresponsible rhetoric that we have heard from the DUP leader translates on our streets into disgraceful attacks on police and the burning of buses?”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a fhreagra. The protocol provides necessary mitigations and protections against the negative effects of Brexit, and it is clear that many businesses now benefit from access to both the European and British markets. In the light of the comments, which the junior Minister mentioned, from the European Commission vice president Maroš Šefcovic about his talks with the British Government, can the Minister elaborate on the current situation?”
“I will finish on that. I oppose the motion.”
“The British Government's legacy proposals are in direct contravention of those that were agreed by the main political parties and the Irish and British Governments in the Stormont House Agreement. The principles that underpin the Stormont House Agreement are the basis for dealing with the past. All parties unanimously rejected the amnesty proposals that were outlined in the British Government's Command Paper.”
“Over 400 outstanding historical investigations are waiting to be dealt with in the ombudsman's office. That is why it is so important to oppose the British Government's legacy proposals, which will attempt to close down all forms of truth and justice for victims of the conflict. Indeed, we are told today that any idea of an independent public inquiry into Pat Finucane's case has now been put back. There is a suspicion out there that the purpose behind the paper that the British are bringing out is to introduce legislation that stops all of the truth being known. <BR /> <BR />Many historical investigation reports have not yet been published. Their publication requires adequate resources.”
“No. <BR /> <BR />For example, the family of Damien Walsh, whose case had lain with the ombudsman's office since 2004, saw the report published only in July of this year, owing to a combination of all the above impediments. The ombudsman's report found collusion among the RUC, British intelligence and the UDA. It found that the police investigation into Damien's murder was flawed from the outset and that the police had attempted to whitewash that collusion. The reason that it took nearly 30 years for the truth to be published is because of delays by police personnel themselves. Moreover, the British Army acknowledged only last year that it had the murder scene under surveillance, so it was holding back information as well. <BR /> <BR />Such cases are why the Office of the Police Ombudsman is so important.”
“It does not, however, consider the negative impact on natural justice and the legal rights of families bereaved in the conflict, whose attempts to seek truth and justice are being thwarted at every turn.”