Daniel McCrossan
West Tyrone · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Member for giving way. She has raised some points of interest. Aside from the Bill at hand, the Department of Finance currently collects rates from property owners across Northern Ireland. I have found that there can be difficulties with that when properties have been lying vacant for a significant period.”
“That applies in particular to those who have been land-banking over a period of time — that happens everywhere, unfortunately — with the hope that the big cash cow will be coming and, ultimately, they will be relieved of their responsibility to maintain, look after and enhance the landscape in a town or village by spending the necessary f…”
“As is often the case when we speak in the House, it may be that some ratepayers or members of the public will take it as a given that the Bill will be the silver bullet that will resolve the dilapidation issues in towns. Depending on which area you are in, the scale is very different.”
“We need to be creative in how we can put the Bill to task. <BR /> <BR />Certainly, as I have said, it is good policy. I have no question that the Bill is well intended.”
“<BR /> <BR />Addressing dilapidation is not simply a matter for local government in isolation. The responsibility lies with the Executive as a whole. The Executive have had their eyes closed to this matter for too long, and many of our buildings have deteriorated significantly across council areas over a long period.”
“That encourages private investment, and there is natural enhancement from those investors. However, in areas that lag behind because of economic decline, underinvestment and general deprivation, many towns and cities can quickly become the poor cousin.”
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“It is also very clear that, throughout our respective constituencies and in absolutely every facet of life, our people are being impacted upon as a result of the virus. <BR /> <BR />When schools reopened, after months of closure, we saw the huge and crippling consequences of the pandemic on our teaching and non-teaching staff. It is vital that, as far as possible, our schools are fully and absolutely resourced to ensure that our teachers and school leaders can cope with the incredible pressures that have arisen as a result of the pandemic. <BR /> <BR />It is also important that the allocations made are relative to the crisis that we face in our economy. Many businesses out there have fallen between stools of late and will undoubtedly do so again on this occasion.”
“<BR /> <BR />As I have said before, the Committee would be supportive of a multi-year budgetary framework, enabling an improved strategic budgetary focus. The Committee has noted that any changes to the budget allocations for the Northern Ireland Audit Office or the NIPSO during the 2020-21 financial year will be handled through the spring Supplementary Estimates. We will examine those with appropriate diligence in due course. That concludes my comments as Chair of the Audit Committee. <BR /> <BR />I will now make a few comments as an MLA for West Tyrone and my party's education spokesperson. The times that we are in are, obviously, unprecedented, and we are all learning as the days arise.”
“The Committee also sought clarification on the capital budget to refurbish the NIAO’s accommodation, and members recently received an update on the increased costs for that project. <BR /> <BR />Despite its relatively small budget, Committee members were struck by the wide remit of the NIPSO, as well as the growing numbers of complaints considered since the office’s inception in 2016. Members have taken an interest in the NIPSO’s role in relation to the Complaints Standards Authority in respect of potential savings by reducing the number of complaints finding their way to the NIPSO in the first place. Now that a permanent ombudsman appointment has been made, we look forward to productive engagement in the coming months.”
“<BR /> <BR />The consideration of the draft Estimates and associated correspondence formed the basis of the Committee report, which gave legal effect to the Audit Committee’s statutory function of laying the Estimates for the NIAO and NIPSO before the Assembly. Those were submitted to the Department of Finance for inclusion in the Main Estimates. <BR /> <BR />Given the connection between the figures in the Estimates and draft budget reports, I would like to highlight some of the Committee’s deliberations concerning the budgets for the NIAO and NIPSO. Members questioned officials on the Audit Office’s new business model and transformation work undertaken in recent times.”
“3) Bill, will also be written to that position. On that basis, the Committee was content to agree its position by way of Standing Order 115(9). <BR /> <BR />In its report published on 10 September, the Committee noted that the Estimates were consistent with the figures set out in the Executive’s draft Budget document, as explained in correspondence from the Department of Finance and accompanying reconciliation information, which is provided as part of the Committee’s report. We also noted that PAC agreed that its view, reached on 20 February 2020, remained unchanged and that it had no further comment to make in that regard.”
“<BR /> <BR />It was anticipated that the Main Estimates giving legal effect to those budgets would follow in June. However, given the impact of the public health pandemic, that process was postponed. Instead, what followed was a Budget (No. 2) Bill and further Vote on Account, allowing the Main Estimates to be taken forward at this time. <BR /> <BR />When considering the Estimates for both bodies, the Committee noted correspondence from the Department of Finance, which indicated that the figures included in the Main Estimates for 2020-21 would be those figures included in the Committee’s report on the draft budgets, published on 5 March 2020. The Committee was also informed that the cash, resources and accruing resources, for which the Assembly’s approval will be sought in the corresponding Budget (No.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Audit Committee fulfils its Estimates role in place of the Department of Finance in recognition of the independence of these non-ministerial bodies, although the Committee has regard to the advice of DOF — and the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) in respect of the Audit Office — in carrying out this role. <BR /> <BR />The Audit Committee’s 'Report on the Estimates of the Northern Ireland Audit Office and the Northern Ireland Public Services Ombudsman 2020-21' was laid in the Business Office on 10 September 2020. The contents of that report reflect the factual position on the Committee’s scrutiny and deliberations relating to the evidence from both the Audit Office and the ombudsman on their draft budgets for 2020-21. That position was reflected in a Committee report published on 5 March 2020.”
“I will speak first as Chairperson of the Audit Committee. The main role of the Audit Committee is to scrutinise and agree the budgets and Estimates of the Northern Ireland Audit Office (NIAO) and the Northern Ireland Public Services Ombudsman (NIPSO), and to lay the Estimates before the Assembly. The Committee also undertakes a budget scrutiny role for the Assembly Commission, although my contribution today will relate solely to the Estimates for the Audit Office and ombudsman, given that the functions in respect of the Commission are yet to be codified. The Committee recently agreed to take advice to progress this matter.”
“We need to protect our rural communities, provide vital services and, at all times, ensure that services are available and fit for purpose at the critical point at which they are needed.”
“People need the necessary care and intervention at that critical time, not to be sitting in busy waiting rooms. They deserve what they have been promised. I hope that the Health Minister — I am sure that he will — will act swiftly in re-establishing the project board and the entirety of phase 2 of this necessary project. <BR /> <BR />We, as elected Members for West Tyrone, have a responsibility, and we will work together collectively. It is not a political issue; concern for the health and well-being of our constituents is something that unites us all. Omagh has been asset-stripped of services, and that continues in rural communities such as ours in West Tyrone, from Loughmacrory to Castlederg through Strabane town, Omagh, Fintona and many other areas.”
“Although I appreciate all the work that staff are doing at the Tyrone and Fermanagh Hospital, those facilities are not fit for purpose. There will be agreement around the Chamber on that. They are listed buildings and, probably, the oldest buildings in the possession of the Western Trust estate. Patients and staff — the entire community — deserve much better. Likewise, on that note, the facilities in Strabane are abysmal. They are not fit for purpose and need to be addressed. There is a need for accessible and user-friendly services that will make a person in difficult circumstances feel comfortable when entering and confident that they will get the necessary support, and not somewhere where they will be told that there is no one available and to go to an out-of-hours GP or A&E.”
“We have had the same two parties, who, rightly, raise concerns and valid points in the Chamber, but this project could have been addressed in three years of stalemate and not landed on the desk of this Minister, who is already facing a very challenging set of circumstances. Leadership could have and should have been shown much sooner. <BR /> <BR />It is important to note that phase 2 included a state-of-the-art addiction unit for Omagh. That unit has still not been built.”
“However, fewer than two years later, the project board was stood down and the project shelved. That has not landed well with the people of Omagh, who already felt left out in the cold by the lack of investment in the town and by the asset stripping of necessary local services. <BR /> <BR />In the preceding three years, we have had nothing but stalemate. There has been no functioning Executive, and the mental health crisis facing our people and communities has worsened as a result of the absence of leadership in this place, which was necessary to support our communities. If anything, we have had three DUP and one Sinn Féin Health Minister who have all failed to deliver phase 2 of this project.”
“They have had a decade of delays on the A5, the Strule campus delays and even the removal of the A&E services from Omagh town, which was a travesty that should absolutely not have happened. There was a strong sense of anger and frustration from the people of Omagh when those services were removed. Even with the fancy new building, there is a still a huge gap in the necessary services for the people of Omagh. <BR /> <BR />In 2016, a Health Minister promised us — it was a DUP Health Minister, indeed — a £30 million mental health facility as part of phase 2 of the Omagh Hospital and Primary Care Complex. That facility would transform the delivery of mental health services across the Western Trust area and go some way to treat the many individuals who suffer every day from mental ill health.”
“It was to consist of three elements: the Omagh hospital, with a range of services; an Omagh health and care centre to accommodate GPs; and a centre for mental health, with a full range of related and necessary services. While the first two, the Omagh hospital and the primary care centre, have been delivered, there has been a massive failure to deliver the third element. That has led to warranted claims that mental health services across our district are treated like a Cinderella service. It is important that that is addressed. <BR /> <BR />The people of Omagh town and West Tyrone are getting sick, sore and tired of failed and empty promises emanating from this very institution.”
“<BR /> <BR />Indeed, it has recently been reported that referrals to the crisis resolution home treatment team that covers Fermanagh and Omagh have tripled in the last year. Much of that is due to the impact that the pandemic has had on local people. I do not believe that the pandemic or our collective response in the Executive and the Chamber inhibit the development of a mental health facility in Omagh. Rather, I believe that the pandemic is a catalyst for this development given the surge and the projected surge that services will, undoubtedly, face. <BR /> <BR />Omagh was promised an enhanced local hospital, which my constituency colleague Ms Kelly mentioned, that would present a new model for local healthcare delivery in West Tyrone and the Western Trust area.”
“From Burn Dennet the whole way to Fintona and Trillick, every family has been impacted by mental health issues through the suffering of either a family member, a friend or a neighbour. <BR /> <BR />There is a massive demand for services. On a weekly basis, I see concerned family members who have contacted my office and staff, and when speaking to local healthcare workers, I see that the challenges are great and that there is a need for intervention. There is huge consensus in West Tyrone that more needs to be done around mental health services. In my view, the coronavirus pandemic has only heightened and compounded this very difficult issue. In the debate yesterday, I referred to how mental health has affected various constituents of mine.”
“I thank my constituency colleague Mr Buchanan for bringing this important Adjournment debate to the Assembly. I also thank the Minister for taking the time to be here to listen to our concerns at this busy time of crisis and challenge. <BR /> <BR />Omagh town has a long and proud history of delivering first-class treatment for mental health and addiction issues. The staff at Tyrone and Fermanagh Hospital and at Omagh Hospital and Primary Care Complex deserve immense credit for what they are doing. They are working under extreme and intolerable pressures, especially now that we are facing the second wave of COVID-19. <BR /> <BR />Mental health issues and suicide are ravaging our local communities across West Tyrone.”
“Minister, the gross mishandling of the awarding of grades this year has been described as nothing short of shambolic. Will the Minister assure the House that lessons have been learned, and will he update the Assembly on when the independent review of CCEA will begin and who will be on the panel?”
“I thank the Minister for her answers so far. Minister, the Finance Minister recently announced the package for businesses in Derry and Strabane. Largely speaking, the reports are that it is not sufficient, given the challenges that they have faced. Does the Minister believe that it is sufficient? Has she had any conversations about increasing that funding, given that this is the second time that businesses in Strabane and Derry have had to close their doors?”
“We all have a part to play, not just in spreading the message, getting it out there and ensuring that it is clear, but in challenging the false narrative that is getting many people's attention. The only way in which we can challenge that narrative is by clear, consistent messaging with the facts and supporting evidence.”
“In some instances, given that many people live in rural areas on both sides of the border, those were essential journeys by people who were going to shop. However, the interventions and regulations that have been made by the House do not seem to have had the effect that I thought they would. That concerns me. Things just seem to be as normal. One tries to explain whether it is a lockdown or restrictions, but what is it? That is very difficult. That is why the message needs to be clear. <BR /> <BR />As Mr Sheehan rightly said, we need to work right across these islands. We are one island. We need to work with the Irish Government, as I know the Health Minister and others have done, to ensure that we have the strongest possible approach to protecting human life and livelihoods.”
“<BR /> <BR />I ask the Health Minister to apply any pressure that he can to ensure that off-licences be dealt with, because many people are asking about that, and that he will do whatever he can to ensure that those who are making the sacrifices necessary to save lives — we are all making sacrifices — have the interventions necessary to support them in their closure, because that is critical. <BR /> <BR />I will finish by making the point that we all need to work collectively. We all know that, regardless of our political differences, the virus knows no border. It transmits with people. I live about three minutes' walk from the border. I sat at the famous Tinnies and watched the free flow of huge volumes of traffic on both sides of the border.”
“That is difficult to police; we will not even know that it is happening. That is where the virus will potentially be transmitted. <BR /> <BR />I have had parents crying to me on the phone because they have a son or daughter of 19 or 20 years of age who will not stay in the house and who is going out with friends. That parent is asking, "What am I to do: lock them in their room or put them out of the house?". Those parents are vulnerable and at risk, but they just cannot get the message through to young people, who think that they are invincible and that they will not spread the virus. That is what is so scary: as the Health Minister will know, some people who have had the virus do not produce any symptoms. That is the worry.”
“Ms Bradshaw raised the point that the First Minister said in a press statement that transmission was largely down to parties and social gatherings in houses, and I have no doubt that they have played a part. We are human beings. Naturally, we want to come together. It has been challenging to be apart for eight months. However, house parties have certainly, in my view and in that of others, played a massive role. Last week, I told the deputy First Minister that it is my firm view that, particularly with the closure of pubs, restaurants and cafes, an element of the community will still have social gatherings in their homes because they can easily access alcohol from off-licences. I asked why we have not closed off-licences. When there is nowhere to go — I am not singling out young people — they will gather together in some spot.”
“<BR /> <BR />It is very important that, at all times, we are consistent in what we are asking the public to do, because otherwise they will leave us. They will go ahead and raise questions, and, as we have seen, social media can take legs of its own. People believe false narratives as fact, and we have a great job to try to challenge that. On every day of the last month, I have been challenged on the message, as I am sure other Members have been, but I am true to that message, ensuring that, at all times, we ask people to play their part to keep each other safe.”
“Is that not something that would have been better in January or February? Did that spread the virus or contribute to it? When you consider that 64 million people across the UK availed themselves of that scheme, that would suggest that it definitely played its part. I understand that there is no blueprint, but we have to get this right, and the message needs to be clear. <BR /> <BR />We need to protect jobs and livelihoods for the exact reason that I have given. As much as people are worried about this virus and are doing their part, closing businesses and adapting their lives, they need support, and, if they do not have that support, their mental health will be affected, which again, will add pressure to our already crippled health service.”
“That is why some decisions taken during this pandemic may be questioned, and that is why some of the situations that we have found ourselves in over the last few weeks may have conflicted with the message that we have been sharing from this House, which is to keep two metres apart. Many people, including teachers and principals, have asked me, "Mr McCrossan, why are 30 children allowed to go into a classroom and then go home to their parents and grandparents and spread it?". It is a delicate situation, and it is very important that we educate our young people and our children, but it conflicted exactly with the message of keeping two metres apart, and the public raised questions. <BR /> <BR />Also, on the subject of conflicting messages, Eat Out to Help Out was a great scheme, and it supported businesses, but was the timing right?”
“Luckily, we are not in that place, and I sincerely hope that we never will be, but we need to be very clear about what we are dealing with so that the public have confidence in the message. <BR /> <BR />There have been concerns raised around whether we have sufficient capacity to test people, and people have been asking whether tests are accurate. I am fed up listening to that question, and, thankfully, the Minister has committed to providing that public reassurance because, again, it is about transparency. <BR /> <BR />It is important that we put as much information in the public domain as we can to build confidence in that message.”
“We should also provide transparent information around the numbers of people who have recovered and recovered well and what the impact was. I know that that is difficult, as there are so many cases, but we need to put that information in the public domain. <BR /> <BR />What do we know about the virus? If we are shutting businesses and people's lives are affected, we need to provide the clearest possible information about the virus. What have we learned? Are we dealing with a lesser strain? Are we dealing with a virus that has weakened, because we are not seeing the former high levels of death? Like other Members in this House, I remember watching footage from Italy on TV and seeing body bags on hospital floors and bodies being put in trucks and seeing them being buried. That scared the life out of me and many others.”
“How we do that is by having a clear and transparent message. We can talk about the levels of infection and the death rates, but this virus has been around for eight or nine months, and people are frustrated, concerned, worried and fed up. <BR /> <BR />We should also state publicly the level of recovery to reassure people that, although they could die, people recover and recover well. There is a huge amount of concern and anxiety, so we need to ensure that we provide the clearest possible information to challenge that. That is why we need to come back to the fundamentals of this. Should we provide the numbers of people infected? Yes. Should we provide the numbers of people who, sadly, have died? Absolutely.”
“<BR /> <BR />One thing that we cannot toy with or play with is the clear guidance on how we protect each other and ourselves. Therefore, there is a job of work to be done to rebuild confidence in that message, and we, as Assembly Members, all have a part to play in that, because the public are leading us. They are ahead of us in a lot of things, but they are starting to ask serious questions, and they are entitled to do that. Their lives are being impacted, and they are entitled to ask questions. They are not entitled to mislead and to go on Facebook and state as fact things that are completely and absolutely untrue, because that, again, puts others at risk. <BR /> <BR />We, here, have a job of work to challenge the false narrative and present the truth as we go forward and learn.”
“As Mr Middleton rightly pointed out, there is no blueprint for this; we do not have a book with all the answers in it that we can refer to. The situation is fluid, and we are learning about this new virus, how it affects each of us and how we live with it and move around it where possible. It is vital, in doing that, that we have confidence in the message. The Health Minister has continued to reiterate the message, as have others, but there needs to be confidence in the public message from the House. Yes, there is a five-party Executive, but we need to collectively pull together to ensure that we are all on the one page. That is difficult, because we are political parties with different views and opinions on how things happen.”
“We have not got an endless pot of money — everyone knows that — but intervention for those in need at that time is absolutely critical, particularly to ensuring that they buy in to doing whatever they can to play their part. However, if someone is in a situation where they have to choose between feeding their family and keeping the business shut, they are in a very difficult place. That is why the intervention from this House, and from Westminster, for businesses needs to be meaningful and sufficient. This is not a direct criticism of the Minister — I understand that he is restricted — but the current intervention is not sufficient. I have heard that, and I am sure that his own party and others around the Chamber have heard the same. <BR /> <BR />As other Members have said, communication is absolutely vital.”
“We should also continue to encourage those who are in those circumstances to continue to present to their doctor, their GP or the health service generally should they need to do so, because the health service is there for them. <BR /> <BR />This is a very delicate situation between protecting lives and protecting jobs and our livelihoods. With that comes immense pressure on our society, our people and our business owners. Asking a business to shut for almost eight months, as has been the case in some instances, creates a very stressful situation for a person who has a mortgage to pay and a family to feed. It has an impact on their mental health as well. That is why we must get this right at every level.”
“<BR /> <BR />There are other people in our society who are struggling with other life-threatening illnesses and are concerned that the second wave, which has now arrived, will lead to their treatments being affected or cancelled. Those people need reassurance and need to be told that they will still be a priority and that cancer patients, in particular, and others will not be forgotten about and will not come second to the virus, because that is what is being spilled on pages of social media daily. There needs to be a solid message from this House, the Department and the Minister that we will not forget those who are in those very difficult and challenging circumstances.”
“As a young person, I had symptoms of the virus and within those two weeks it impacted on me quite badly for five days and then eased. A very difficult part of that isolation was being at home for two full weeks without getting out. That was very tough, and I am a young person, so I can only imagine the impact that it has on people who have been at home for months, have made considerable sacrifices and are lonely as they live alone. Those people are severely impacted because they are so worried about getting the virus that they are doing everything possible to avoid it, often to the detriment of their own physical and mental health. Be in no doubt that it is having an impact on the health and well-being of our population. That is where we need to get the delicate balance right.”
“Some people do not even know that they have it, and, because they are not taking the necessary precautions, they may put others, perhaps in their own family or in their community, at risk. <BR /> <BR />I pay tribute to our front-line workers and key workers, who continue to provide a vital and life-saving service to our public and those in need. This has been a very difficult time. It has been a difficult year. There are businesses that have now been closed for almost eight months. Our society has been forever changed. Our lives have been impacted on by this virus in every way imaginable. It is difficult for everyone; it is difficult for all of our people, and it is certainly impacting on the mental health of our general population. <BR /> <BR />I was in isolation for two weeks.”
“I support what I consider to be necessary regulations and the changes to previous regulations. <BR /> <BR />Minister, I pay tribute to you. This is a very challenging and difficult time. I do not envy the position that you are in or the very difficult and delicate decisions that you must consider and reach daily about this very fluid situation. <BR /> <BR />I also offer my condolences to the many families of the bereaved. To lose anyone at any time to whatever illness is a very difficult thing. To lose someone to this virus, which might have been picked up quite easily from someone who visited, is totally mind-boggling. It is beyond words and comprehension, particularly when the situation could have been avoided. That is the message that we need to get out to people. This virus transmits so easily.”
“I thank the Ministers for their statement. This is a significant announcement and, as has been said, one that is long overdue. I commend the victims, who have stood strong through very difficult times and have suffered continuously over the years. This will come as welcome news to the victims. I wish Ms Ryan well in the difficult and challenging job that lies ahead. <BR /> <BR />Minister, given the number of people, is there any intention to increase the office budget, as additional staffing would help? I know you touched on that earlier, but can you give an assurance to those affected that there will be no barrier to the resources necessary to support the commissioner in her vital and necessary work?”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. It is good to be back. It has been a long few weeks. <BR /> <BR />As the Minister knows, in the wider community, there is some speculation among those who have difficulty with the testing system. Can he provide assurances to the public and the House on how accurate the tests are?”
“We will make whatever moves necessary to protect their interests, and our interests, as European citizens.”
“<BR /> <BR />People you represent in your own community — farmers and businesses — have said to me, and to other Members across the House, that they do not consider this an orange or green issue; they consider it an issue of their livelihoods, of the economic stability of this place, of their children's future. It is not something that we should be playing fast and loose with. The Prime Minister needs to get the message. <BR /> <BR />The House was gone for three years, but it is back. Our voices will be heard, as will those of the majority of people across the North of Ireland, Northern Ireland, who voted Remain. No matter how strong the voices in opposition to that reality, it remains a fact that the majority of people here voted to remain.”
“Yes, Mr Aiken is right: we do not want to see any borders across this island. However, the reality is that this British Government — Boris Johnson — cannot be trusted. Mr Allister, who is a very sharp, articulate gentleman, must realise that Boris is a blundering buffoon who cannot be trusted with the affairs of this place. He will go down in history as the Prime Minister who ignored NI and who ignored the interests of this place. It is our people and our children who will be expected to recover and to pick up the pieces of the madness that is being defended by the Members on the opposite Benches. This is not good for Northern Ireland; it is not good for our children, our businesses or our young people. To sit there and defend Boris Johnson is pathetic.”
“Whether some in the House like it or not, people from their background also voted that way because they realised that, as Ms Bailey rightly articulated, Brexit is bad for Northern Ireland and bad for our people, our businesses and our farmers. It is bad for everybody.”
“I welcome Stewart Dickson back to the House and wish him well for the months ahead. <BR /> <BR />I find it astonishing that some unionist Members in the House would become and continue to be mighty defenders of the British Government: Boris and his Tory cronies. Have they learnt nothing from the fact that, not that long ago, he threw them under the big, red bus and, in fact, reversed over them to make sure that he did not miss? Since then, that bus has gone missing, along with its message, painted right throughout the campaign, of great reassurances for those who were persuaded to vote Leave. The reality is that in the North, in Northern Ireland, the majority of people voted to remain.”
“Does the Member agree that there are serious questions to be raised about the secrecy that surrounds the CCEA process, particularly on this occasion, which has shone a bright light on how it functions?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Does she agree with me that, given what has happened, it is vital that the Minister and CCEA produce for the public the algorithm that was used that overrode the judgement of teachers? In the interests of transparency, it is vital that that is the case. Does the Member agree?”
“I thank the Member for her intervention. Yes, young people have suffered incredibly. GPs and the mental health champion have talked about the impact on the mental health of our young people. That is an unforgivable situation, Minister. An apology will not suffice, but action will. Moving now to rectify the issues and ensure university places for our young people is key in all of this, as well as transparency around the processes by which determinations were reached that outflanked the judgement of teachers. <BR /> <BR />I commend the motion and the amendment to the House.”
“We need to guarantee, as an Executive, that our young people will get the places that they should have and not suffer at the hands of a system that failed them, let them down and was defended by you, Minister, and Justin Edwards, the chief executive.”