Alban Maginness
North Belfast · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“I look at the Justice Committee, which was mentioned yesterday during the Justice Bill debate, and see it as an exemplar of how people can work together, despite their political differences, and create a political consensus in order to make worthwhile changes in the justice system.”
“I hope that, as I leave this place and a new mandate starts, I can relinquish the function of alchemist and that we will have a new dispensation in which we can, in fact, create that reconciliation, because the Assembly was created as a forum for reconciliation.”
“— people used to ask me what I did. I said that I was a fireman — a political fireman who put out political fires. That is what we did for the first five years or so: we put out political fires. I have become redundant, or semi-redundant, in relation to putting out political fires.”
“There is, indeed, a dark shadow over the Assembly as we prepare for the elections. The attack on Adrian Ismay was not just an attack on a prison officer; it was an attack on the Assembly, it was an attack on the political process and it was an attack on non-violence and peaceful politics.”
“I thank the representative of the Commission for her kind words. I have enjoyed working with Karen McKevitt and, indeed, with the Commission. In the programme, will there be an emphasis on dealing with legislation, particularly draft legislation? It is a process that needs considerable skill and knowledge. Is that available?”
“On this legislation, he helped to put forcefully the views of the Committee to the Assembly, the Minister and the Department of Justice, and I compliment him on his work. It has been very positive.”
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“There is, indeed, a dark shadow over the Assembly as we prepare for the elections. The attack on Adrian Ismay was not just an attack on a prison officer; it was an attack on the Assembly, it was an attack on the political process and it was an attack on non-violence and peaceful politics. The only response that we as an Assembly can give is to come together in solidarity to support Mr Ismay's family in their terrible and tragic loss. I ask the Minister to convey that to the family.”
“I thank the representative of the Commission for her kind words. I have enjoyed working with Karen McKevitt and, indeed, with the Commission. In the programme, will there be an emphasis on dealing with legislation, particularly draft legislation? It is a process that needs considerable skill and knowledge. Is that available?”
“I look at the Justice Committee, which was mentioned yesterday during the Justice Bill debate, and see it as an exemplar of how people can work together, despite their political differences, and create a political consensus in order to make worthwhile changes in the justice system. That, I believe, is worthwhile and an exemplar of what we can do together on a non-partisan basis. You do not have to give up being SDLP, Sinn Féin or DUP; you can continue to hold on to that but work for the common good. <BR /> <BR />Finally, Mr Speaker, I thank you for your work in the Assembly, and I thank your distinguished predecessor, Willie Hay, for all of his work. Both of you acted in the interests of the whole Assembly and the whole community. You showed your independence and wisdom, and I believe that that should be properly recognised.”
“I hope that, as I leave this place and a new mandate starts, I can relinquish the function of alchemist and that we will have a new dispensation in which we can, in fact, create that reconciliation, because the Assembly was created as a forum for reconciliation. What we have now is good, and we have achieved significant progress, but we need to do much, much better. We need to create a situation in which we can transform power-sharing into partnership — a dynamic, active partnership based on goodwill and harmony in which we can work together for the good of all of our people: Catholic and Protestant; nationalist and unionist. That is what the Assembly is all about. <BR /> <BR />I believe that we have made small progress towards that, but we can do much, much better.”
“— people used to ask me what I did. I said that I was a fireman — a political fireman who put out political fires. That is what we did for the first five years or so: we put out political fires. I have become redundant, or semi-redundant, in relation to putting out political fires. I do that only on a part-time basis now because the political fires are much fewer than they were in the past. I feel as though I have changed and become an alchemist, in that my party and I have attempted to transform the lead of sectarianism and division into the pure gold of reconciliation, cooperation and community harmony. I hope that we can change that.”
“In the last century, when I was first elected to the Assembly —”
“I was not aware of that. I conclude and simply say that it is unfortunate and, I believe, not right that Standing Order 45A as drafted should be adopted by the House.”
“It seems a little ridiculous for the House to adopt a Standing Order based on Fresh Start now, with all its limitations and, in the aftermath of the election, change Standing Orders again to reflect the provisions of the John McCallister Bill. <BR /> <BR />It seems to me that the preference is for this draft not to be accepted and that another draft be substituted. Now, at this late stage, the problem is that we have a position where the Committee, principally Sinn Féin and the DUP —”
“It is not yet an Act of the House in the fullest sense of the word, because it has not received Royal Assent, but, as we all know, that is a formality. That will take place in due course and possibly very quickly, possibly before the next election. <BR /> <BR />What we and other parties in the Committee on Procedures would say is that it would be right and proper for the House to recognise the McCallister Bill now and put that 8% element into Standing Orders. Of course, we know that it is relatively easy to express that in Standing Orders; indeed, we had a draft proposal before the Committee on Procedures, and it could, in fact, have been quite easily adopted by that Committee. We say that there is no reason why, in fact, that should not be part of Standing Orders now.”
“Leaving that aside, with regard to the Fresh Start Agreement in relation to the creation of an official opposition or at least a vehicle by which an official opposition could in fact be expressed within Standing Orders and in the Assembly, it is our view that the present draft of Standing Order 45A falls short of what is also contained in the John McCallister Bill, which, as yet, has not received Royal Assent but has been passed by the House. In essence, the McCallister Bill contains a provision whereby members of a party that comprises 8% or more of the total number of Members of the Assembly could be recognised as part of the official opposition. That is the will of the House. I know that at least one party opposed that; nonetheless, it is the will of the House.”
“I thank the Chair for his speech outlining the details of the proposed amendments to Standing Orders. He skilfully avoided the convolutions contained in the amendments to Standing Order 44(2) and, possibly, Standing Order 44A(1), but I am grateful to him for outlining the proposed changes. As a party, we would support all the changes save for what is proposed as Standing Order 45A. <BR /> <BR />Very briefly, I will outline why we have reservations in relation to Standing Order 45A. It is really that it encompasses the Fresh Start Agreement. That agreement was of course an agreement between two parties, not a multi-party agreement. That should be emphasised, although I have to say that contained therein were elements with which my party would be in agreement.”
“I know that one of them is in preliminary shadow mode, and the other is in full operation. <BR /> <BR />It seems to me that we need to get on with it. Mrs Cameron has said that she wants to see section 41, I presume, reflected in the standing orders. In my view, this gives full expression to section 41. I cannot see how you could readjust the regulations to express the standing orders differently. As Dolores Kelly quite rightly said, you want a uniform application of this throughout the 11 councils; you do not want a deviation, particularly at this early stage of the political development of councils. For those reasons, I am happy to support the Minister in relation to the regulations.”
“I thank the Member for her intervention. I think that she has put her finger on it. This will become, literally, a postcode lottery in the interpretation of how qualified-majority voting should take place and in dealing with, or addressing, problems of minorities in council areas. It is a serious issue and one that should be remedied now. Unfortunately, it will not be remedied because of the petition of concern, and the only way to remedy it is to vote for these regulations. I am leaving the petition of concern aside, but that is probably a futile hope. There could have been a more mature approach. I am sure that these matters could be revisited at some time in the future; now, however, is, I think, the operative time, because we have had the councils operating for two years.”
“I am genuinely at a loss to understand the attitude of colleagues across the Floor.”
“<BR /> <BR />The other aspect is where the council contravenes human rights in relation to the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) and even if we have a Brexit, the ECHR will still be there. The main point is where a council would be acting outside the equality scheme that it had agreed to, and that is consistent with section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998. I cannot think of anything beyond that that can be considered, because it is, to my mind, an exhaustive list of things that should be considered, which are pertinent to a decision, and which could impact in a disproportionate and adverse manner on the inhabitants of a council. It seems to me that the Minister has honestly, and in a spirit of conciliation, addressed the issues that were originally raised about these regulations.”
“I think that there is an onus on those who object to the regulations to come to the House, and, in a straightforward, intelligible fashion — I am not trying to impugn Mrs Cameron's presentation — outline what the problem is with the revisited regulations. I do not know what could be more exhaustive than the regulations as expressed in the draft today, because you are dealing with a situation where the council would be acting ultra vires, that is, outside its powers, and outside European Union law. Perhaps we might have to remedy that in the near future if there is a Brexit. I will leave that aside; perhaps this is too serious a matter for me to joke about.”
“It is a tribute to the Minister that he was big enough — tall enough — to deal with the issue, show political flexibility and try to be conciliatory in his approach to the political problem. I understand that colleagues in the DUP have a problem with the new draft regulations presented to the House, but, along with other colleagues throughout the Chamber, I am at a loss to understand at this point the nature of their objections.”
“Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. I thank Mr Boylan for his kind words to my good self. <BR /> <BR />The Environment Committee works extremely well under the very capable leadership of Anna Lo, and I have adverted to that before. Pam Cameron as Deputy Chair has played a significant role in the work of the Committee. <BR /> <BR />It is regrettable that we have this political disagreement over the regulations that the Minister has reintroduced. I know that they were defeated last February. On foot of the motion on the regulations being negatived then, the Minister and the Department worked assiduously to try to remedy the problems that were highlighted during the debate.”
“I welcome the significant progress that has been made in prison reform. It is very, very important, because it was long neglected. Would the Minister consider inviting Anne Owers back to Northern Ireland to review what has been achieved to measure it against her original recommendations? Would that be welcomed?”
“I thank the Minister for that response. What plans does he have to publish an assessment of the impact on the local economy of the exit of Northern Ireland from the European Union? Is the Minister in a position to apprise the House of whether that will happen? It would be of great assistance to those who are undecided, perhaps even himself, on the matter.”
“Thank you very much. It would be very churlish of me not to thank everybody for being so kind to me today. <BR /> <BR />Finally, Mr Deputy Speaker, I want to thank you. This is probably my final opportunity to thank you for the work that you have done as Deputy Speaker in this Assembly. I think that it is very important to acknowledge the work of Deputy Speakers and you, in particular. You have served the Assembly with great industry and great conscientiousness, and I think it would be remiss not to mention that today, so thank you very much indeed.”
“All I can say to that is, do not go too far. —”
“but it would be very wrong to say that, so I withdraw it. <BR /> <BR />I am not like Mr Frew and Mr McGlone, as I have very little knowledge of firearms. But it was very important to get agreement between those who take part in this sport and the Department. I know it was a very difficult process, which took a long time. I go back to slow motion again: it took a long time to get this agreed. I think that it is worthwhile and important for those involved.”
“I know nothing about weaponry or firearms. I was going to say that I am in a minority in this House —”
“<BR /> <BR />We also look at the sterling work carried out by the emergency services, and their workers — particularly ambulance workers — should not be subjected to the type of offences that have occurred. There is an additional protection for them, and I hope that, under clause 54, soon to be section 54, the offence of assaulting ambulance workers etc will provide the necessary protection to them. Again, I want to single out Mr Paul Frew, for pursuing this. I know that Lord Morrow was the original instigator of this, but it performs a fine service to the whole community, emergency workers in particular. <BR /> <BR />Lastly, I come to the vexed question of firearms. My colleague Mr McGlone is not here, but his collaborator Mr Frew is; they were involved in getting it right for those involved in using firearms for sport.”
“<BR /> <BR />The other point that I will make about the Prison Ombudsman is this: the Prison Ombudsman will play a very important role in easing some of the other pressures in prisons. The fact that the role will be on a statutory basis and his functions properly defined and, I hope, properly resourced means that some of those pressures will diminish. That is important to remember. <BR /> <BR />I also highlight the penalties in the Bill for animal welfare offences, which were clearly inadequate before. Some amendment has been made in relation to that, and that may act as a deterrent. Mr McCarthy quite rightly highlighted the appalling and horrible cruelty shown to a poor animal over the past week. Those who carry out such vile crimes will be severely punished.”
“<BR /> <BR />The media, and people outside here, probably do not realise the significance of the Justice (No. 2) Bill, but it is significant. The reason why is that, if it is properly and fully implemented, the new fines collection system will mean thousands of people will not go to prison. Space will be freed up. The pressure on the prison system, which is suffering very considerable pressures, will be eased, and, as a result, we will be able to use the resources available. That is very important. Therefore, this is not an insignificant piece of legislation. It may look rather complex and inconsequential, but it is important to remember exactly what is intended to be achieved by it.”
“I have to say that I am still not reconciled to the methodology by which we arrived at having a Minister of Justice, but nonetheless David Ford has performed well in office, and his efforts should be appreciated by all. That does not mean to say that we approve of everything that the Minister has done. It was clear, when we disagreed with him in relation to parts of this Bill, that that was so, but it would be wrong not to acknowledge his good work. I know that he has indicated that he will not be Minister of Justice in the next mandate, so I wish him well in whatever other function he carries out in the Assembly and within his own party. <BR /> <BR />I also put on record the work of Bronwyn McGahan on the Committee. I know that she is not here, but it important that we acknowledge the work that she has done.”
“The other thing I wanted to say — this is reflected in the Bill — is that, to a great extent, we work in slow motion in this House. The proposal for putting what is now called the Prison Ombudsman on a statutory footing was proposed at Hillsborough, and that was in 2010, if I remember correctly. Six years later, we are doing that. We really ought to do better than that. We ought to be faster in what we try to do in the House. Six years is inappropriate to establish the role of Prison Ombudsman on a statutory basis. Therein lies a lesson, which is that we must move faster than we have done in the past. <BR /> <BR />I want to take this opportunity — probably my last opportunity — to pay tribute to the work of the Minister.”
“<BR /> <BR />I say to those who will be part of the next Assembly that they should step up to the mark and reinforce these efforts to try to achieve genuine consensus and a genuine partnership between nationalists and unionists, Catholics and Protestants. I think it is vital that those in the next mandate do that seriously.”
“This Bill is a good example of getting things right. <BR /> <BR />However, I will say this to the Assembly: it has performed, not to my liking and not to my party's liking, but it has performed and has achieved certain things. It could achieve an awful lot better: that is the point I want to make. It could be more dynamic, more constructive and could achieve what all of us in politics want to achieve, which is to bring about real peace and reconciliation amongst our people. That is probably outside the confines of this Bill; nonetheless, I think we should all aspire to that. Anything that narrows difference, which the Bill does, will bring that about.”
“On this legislation, he helped to put forcefully the views of the Committee to the Assembly, the Minister and the Department of Justice, and I compliment him on his work. It has been very positive. <BR /> <BR />Of course, the Deputy Chair, Mr McCartney, has played a leading role in the Committee and its work and in making sure that it was a very constructive part of the Assembly. Sometimes I think that the Assembly at large should take note of the work that we have done in the Committee and try to emulate it. That is because it has been very positive, and there has been constructive engagement very largely on a non-partisan basis. That is very important. It does not mean that we are no longer politicians or members of Sinn Féin, the DUP, the SDLP or whatever; we are still politicians, but we are trying to get things right.”
“Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. The SDLP welcomes the Bill in its final form and has been supportive of its different provisions. We also welcome the way in which the Bill has been refined by the Committee and the Assembly. I think it has been an important contribution to the legislative process and that the work the Committee has done with the Department and the Minister on justice issues has been consistently positive, worthwhile and very constructive in producing good legislation and, indeed, good policy decisions on the part of the Department. That is very important. I reiterate my support for the way in which the Chair chaired the Committee and gave leadership on all sorts of issues.”
“I welcome the Minister's statement. It is a very positive one, and it points the way in which Department policy should, in fact, go in relation to children. The emphasis on welfare is very important. On the point that Mr Frew made about dealing with young people who offend persistently and extremely, what we are going to do about them when they enter a custodial situation? Can we improve on what we do for them?”
“— the judiciary that it is important that those offences are marked out for what they are and that the polluter truly pays in monetary terms.”
“<BR /> <BR />One final point is that, on fines and enforcement, the courts need to take pollution incidents much more seriously. I know that we can advise people and we can prevent pollution, but there is a deterrent effect if there are high monetary penalties. I encourage the Committee and the Department to say to —”
“He does not agree with that either. Nonetheless, I think that it would be an important thing to have, and it would help us in dealing with water pollution and the pollution of our rivers, which are so important to us. <BR /> <BR />It is important that we continue the good work that the Environment Committee has done. The Committee met stakeholders. I was unable to get to that event, but nonetheless it went ahead. Apparently it was a very successful event, despite my absence — or maybe because of my absence. It was a good event, and credit to the Committee for that. The stakeholders were delighted to have an input at that level. That is important, because we need to build the partnership between government, the stakeholders and the Assembly. That is very important.”
“Very good. The Member has advised, and I accept that advice from a very distinguished, long-standing member of the Committee. <BR /> <BR />There is a tension between the environment and agriculture. To wit, in Northern Ireland about 67% of failures are due to diffuse agricultural pollution. In fact, 33% is due to discharges from waste water treatment works, industry, sewerage networks etc. The important point is that there is tension between agriculture and the environment, and we have to get that right. The best way of getting that right is having an independent environment agency. That is another position that I put forward. I am not sure whether Mr Allister agrees with that one or not.”
“He voted against it. There you are. Despite his vote against it, we have it here, and it has added to the Department of the Environment's weaponry in dealing with pollution, so there you are. Despite Mr Allister's best efforts, he was thwarted, and we now have the wonderful framework directive from which flows the great benefit of legislative control and so forth. <BR /> <BR />There is another political point that I would make: the new Department will be the Department of agriculture and the environment. I think that that is the new name, although it might be just the Department of agriculture by itself. Nonetheless, the point is that there will be a tension —”
“I see that I have wakened Mr Allister; I am delighted that he is alive and well and alert. I refer of course to the water framework directive, which he may well have had a part in constructing in Europe.”
“A lot of the good work that has gone on in relation to river pollution is a result of the European Union. Dare I mention it?”
“Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. Thank you for those plaudits. <BR /> <BR />May I say that it is not because it is International Women's Day that I mention our esteemed Chair, Anna Lo, and our esteemed Deputy Chair, Pam Cameron? It is because they have made a very valuable contribution to the Committee, Anna in her leadership of the Committee and Pam Cameron in this particular debate, which she has raised consistently. It is as a result of her good work that we have this timely and important report, as her colleague pointed out. It is important for us here in the North of Ireland to get our waterways and rivers clean and unpolluted, as it adds to our natural environment, to our tourism offering and simply to the well-being of our citizens. <BR /> <BR />May I make a partisan political point?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I think that it is important to remind the House that the Lord Chief Justice, while preserving his total independence in relation to the administration of justice, has gone out of his way to interact with this Committee and, indeed, indirectly with the Assembly. He should be congratulated for that. No longer is the Lord Chief Justice somebody who is up there and we are down here. He has come and talked to us and engaged in a very important debate in relation to criminal justice issues.”
“Let us use an alternative. Let us use administrative sanctions rather than criminal offences. Let us do away with the silly idea that, if you do not pay your TV licence, you have to endure some sort of criminal record. That is just nonsense. Let us not create other offences that do the same.”
“<BR /> <BR />Finally, in relation to the problem of excessive penalisation, which the Attorney General referred to in the February seminar, it is important that we do not introduce too many extra criminal offences.”
“It is not just a matter of economics and public funds; it is a matter of the good social benefit to society of keeping youngsters out of the justice system. I endorse everything that the Chair has said. <BR /> <BR />Our visits to Brooklyn were very interesting, meeting with Judge Ferdinand and Judge Calabrese in the Brooklyn Treatment Court and the Red Hook Community Justice Center respectively. Those were very impressive, but we do not have to go outside these islands. We can go to Glasgow and see what they are doing there. There is fantastic work in the drugs court led by Sheriff Wood. Wonderful work is being done there. Of course, district judge Barney McElholm is doing good work up in Derry, and let us hope that that work can be developed further. I am quite certain that the judiciary is sympathetic and supportive of the changes.”
“I also thank the Clerk of the Committee and her staff. She has been outstanding in supporting the Committee, and the Committee staff have been wonderful in their commitment and support for the Committee. <BR /> <BR />The Chair adverted to problem-solving courts. We have to go in that direction; there is absolutely no doubt. The support comes not just from within our Committee but from the Lord Chief Justice, who has expressed a sympathetic view in relation to problem solving. Indeed, on youth justice, he said, "Instead of a 150-day time limit, let us have 50 days." He was talking in those terms, and he was talking about diversionary disposals because he sees the merit in keeping young people out of the formal justice system. That makes sense.”
“Absolutely. That was a very timely intervention, with the emphasis on timely.”
“Not all the ideas have been crystallised in legislation, administrative change or whatever, but I am certain that, in the next mandate, some, if not all, of these ideas will, in fact, be adopted and implemented as far as possible. I encourage any successor Minister of Justice to look at these ideas and to embrace them fully. <BR /> <BR />I will say very quickly, because I am going to run out of time, unless somebody wishes to intervene, and somebody might want to intervene, that —”
“So it is not just my humble opinion; it is the opinion of the president of the Supreme Court, and I am very happy to endorse what the president has said. <BR /> <BR />I thank the Chair for his sterling work in giving leadership to the Committee, and Mr McCartney, who has been Deputy Chair of the Committee since 2010. His constructive work and support for the work of the Committee has been outstanding. I am very happy to say that people should be very proud of this report because it is innovative, exemplary and creative in relation to the criminal justice system. That is what the Committee set out to do and has done.”