Alban Maginness
North Belfast · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“I look at the Justice Committee, which was mentioned yesterday during the Justice Bill debate, and see it as an exemplar of how people can work together, despite their political differences, and create a political consensus in order to make worthwhile changes in the justice system.”
“I hope that, as I leave this place and a new mandate starts, I can relinquish the function of alchemist and that we will have a new dispensation in which we can, in fact, create that reconciliation, because the Assembly was created as a forum for reconciliation.”
“— people used to ask me what I did. I said that I was a fireman — a political fireman who put out political fires. That is what we did for the first five years or so: we put out political fires. I have become redundant, or semi-redundant, in relation to putting out political fires.”
“There is, indeed, a dark shadow over the Assembly as we prepare for the elections. The attack on Adrian Ismay was not just an attack on a prison officer; it was an attack on the Assembly, it was an attack on the political process and it was an attack on non-violence and peaceful politics.”
“I thank the representative of the Commission for her kind words. I have enjoyed working with Karen McKevitt and, indeed, with the Commission. In the programme, will there be an emphasis on dealing with legislation, particularly draft legislation? It is a process that needs considerable skill and knowledge. Is that available?”
“On this legislation, he helped to put forcefully the views of the Committee to the Assembly, the Minister and the Department of Justice, and I compliment him on his work. It has been very positive.”
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“The compilers were not oblivious to the fact that there was still tension and still work to be done. They stated that there was a unique opportunity, given the prison reform programme that is due to be completed next year, to create a prison system that is compliant with the highest human rights standards and that the stocktake report should be read in that context. They further stated that they did not:”
“They have dedicated their lives to public work and to helping society at large. It is very important to note their contribution to this issue, which was voluntary, unpaid and disinterested, in the sense that all they wanted to do was to find a solution to the continuing problems in Roe House. Their report should be seen in that context. <BR /> <BR />The SDLP amendment does not ask anyone in the House to support the report; it asks the House to note the report. Hopefully, we will learn from the report, and I hope that it will effect some substantive change in the coming months, particularly in the next six months. It is important to note that, in the conclusion of the report, the compilers state:”
“When the authors of the stocktake report appeared before the Justice Committee, they emphasised the importance of the process being two-way. It was not simply a matter of prisoners making certain demands and certain things being given to prisoners. The original agreement and the report to which I am referring emphasised the importance of prison staff being protected from intimidation and threat. <BR /> <BR />Mr Bunting, who led the assessment team, is a leading trade unionist and is secretary of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions (ICTU). As a trade unionist, he put tremendous emphasis on the protection of fellow workers in the Prison Service. I want to make that point strongly to the House. His colleagues, Rev Dr Lesley Carroll, Mr Chris Maccabe CB and Mr Conal McFeely, are serious-minded people.”
“I understand — indeed, I have sympathy with — the points that Mr Givan made in his opening address to the House on the DUP motion. He spoke with considerable passion, deep interest and knowledge, and great concern. I share those concerns. I want to make it very plain that the SDLP acknowledges the good work that prison staff have done. They deserve our support, and they deserve to work in an environment that is free from intimidation or threat, as do their families. <BR /> <BR />The 2010 agreement, which Mr Givan referred to — he did so in critical terms — was posited on a number of principles, one of which was to create a situation in which staff and prisoners, particularly staff, would be free from any threat or intimidation, or anything of that nature.”
“The report was released on 12 November. It is a very important milestone in addressing the situation in Roe House, and it is important that the House discusses it.”
“From the outset, I want to make it clear that the amendment that the SDLP tabled was included to ensure that the stocktake report that was compiled by the independent assessors on the situation in Roe House is part of the motion and the debate.”
“The Ulster Orchestra is highly respected throughout the world and is a leader in many respects. Will the Minister reassure the House that, in the event of there being an ultimate crisis that might see the orchestra go out of business, she will provide the necessary funding, given the fact that every substantial orchestra throughout the world is supported by public funds?”
“It is similar to the campaign carried out against Maíria Cahill in relation to her allegations against Sinn Féin. <BR /> <BR />We see a repetition of the approach that Sinn Féin has taken in relation to a series of criminal actions; two murders and other criminal actions. That is not good enough. It is right for the House to demand that Sinn Féin comes clean, that they apologise, that they cooperate with the police and the gardaí, and that justice for Paul Quinn is finally achieved.”
“It is demanded by the Quinn family and by every civilised standard that should permeate the workings of the House and all political parties in the House. <BR /> <BR />I support those who have spoken today in favour of the motion. Not once did those in Sinn Féin give an apology for blackening the reputation of Paul Quinn. Not once have they expressed any sorrow whatsoever in relation to defaming the good name of Paul Quinn. Not once has any Member of Sinn Féin said, "Paul Quinn was not a criminal. He was blamed in the wrong by Conor Murphy". Not once have they shown any contrition in relation to the campaign of denigration against Paul Quinn. Of course, that was similar to the campaign that was carried out in relation to Robert McCartney in the aftermath of his murder.”
“They want to find justice, and they believe that this is an appropriate forum in which we can put pressure on Sinn Féin, the republican movement and those who have knowledge so that the assailants of Paul Quinn can be brought to justice. That is the right and proper thing for us, as legislators and public representatives, to do. Indeed, it is the duty of Dominic Bradley to come to the House and place the motion on the record of the House because only in that way can people be influenced outside the House who may have information in relation to that horrendous murder. Thus, it is important for us to have brought forward the motion today and to debate it. There is no witch-hunt here. There is a hunt, but it is a quite proper hunt for justice.”
“This is all about preserving the integrity of Sinn Féin and preserving its political support. It is not about advancing justice here in Northern Ireland. It is about maintaining support and maintaining the lie that the Provisional IRA were decent people. We have heard that recently from none other than the president of Sinn Féin. Do decent people batter to death a young man in pursuit of maintaining their sovereignty in an area of south Armagh? Is that really what this is all about? <BR /> <BR />We have been told that we, in the SDLP, are wrong in bringing forward the motion today. It was brought forward with the support of Paul Quinn's family, so, if you are criticising the SDLP for bringing forward the motion, you are implicitly and, indeed, explicitly criticising the Quinn family.”
“Why has no one else in Sinn Féin questioned Conor Murphy and said to him that, "If you have this information, why not go to the police?" instead of standing up in this House and disingenuously saying, "Well, you know, people should go to the gardaí and the police." There is obviously information in the Sinn Féin organisation, and that information should be given to the police or the gardaí. There is no other way to behave in a decent fashion.”
“He did not just comment initially, but in this House in 2008. Why has he consistently said that this was the result of some sort of criminal gang fallout? <BR /> <BR />It is not acceptable in this House, or indeed outside it, for Sinn Féin to pretend that they are victims and also to pretend that they do not have information. If they do not have information, how do they know that it was not the IRA? How have they come to that conclusion? We have heard that Conor Murphy went to the leadership of the IRA. Could he give the gardaí or the PSNI information on the people whom he spoke to so that they could interview them? What would be wrong with that?”
“It has been said here by members of that party that, "We are really the victims here because you are all ganging up on us and there is a witch-hunt against us." It is similar to the Maíria Cahill case when, again, we were all ganging up on Sinn Féin: they are the victims, not the family of Paul Quinn. Those members disingenuously say that they would give information to the gardaí or the PSNI if they had any. Well, they have had plenty of opportunity to do so and they have not; they have signally failed to do so. What has Conor Murphy done with his information that this was, in fact, the result of rivalry between criminal gangs? Has he given that information to the gardaí? Has he given the details of that? If he does not have that information or if it were merely an assumption, why then did he comment?”
“In many ways, it is similar to Robert McCartney's murder in Belfast, when there was a cleansing of the scene of the murder. It is different from the murder in Belfast because this murder was coldly calculated, whereas the McCartney murder was not. This one was preconceived, meticulously carried out and, as I say, forensically cleaned up afterwards. Can you imagine a criminal gang going to those lengths? I cannot. Why would a criminal gang take a young man and beat him mercilessly? Why would they do that? <BR /> <BR />We still have answers to receive from Sinn Féin.”
“I thank everybody who contributed to the debate. I just want to add a comment to what Tom Elliott said when he talked about the horrific and bloodthirsty nature of that murder. I emphasise to the House that the reason why it was so brutal and bloodthirsty was to send a very strong message; that is why the brutality was such. The message was: "We are in control. We are in charge. You will not defy our authority — the authority of the Provisional IRA." That was the message that was being put across. <BR /> <BR />It is disingenuous for anybody in this House to say that, in fact, this murder was not a paramilitary murder; it had all the hallmarks of a paramilitary murder. It was carried out by 10 men in boiler suits who forensically cleansed the scene of the murder.”
“I am glad that the Minister will meet Mr Hogan very soon. I know that she has written to him to congratulate him on his new position and was very helpful to him in the nomination process. Given the serious problems with the dairy industry, would it not be appropriate to meet him as soon as possible to try to iron out some of the difficulties with that industry?”
“I thank the Minister for her answers. It is quite clear that effort has been put into trying to tackle rural crime. There is a perception out there that rural crime has, in fact, increased. Will the Minister confirm that that is so and why it might be so?”
“I thank the Minister for his statement and look forward to even greater cooperation between North and South on road safety. Minister, your Department will endure very considerable cuts. Will those impact on road safety, North and South?”
“Could a Deputy Speaker assume the role of Chairperson of the Commission in the absence of an elected Speaker?”
“— from single men for housing in North Belfast. That is definitely very, very critical.”
“— suggests that there is, in fact, a crisis. I ask the Minister to look afresh at the figures and look in particular at the demand —”
“I welcome the Minister's looking at North Belfast afresh. That is important, and I know that the Minister will do that very seriously. In relation to his comments about there not being a crisis, the demand in North Belfast —”
“I thank the Minister for his detailed response. It seems that there is some light at the end of the tunnel in relation to the Dungiven bypass. It has been delayed for many, many years, and people are reaching the end of the patience that they have exercised. Will the Minister give even a guesstimate of a date for the bypass?”
“You have an oligarchy. Two parties are running the system, and they exclude the Ulster Unionists, us and the Alliance Party from any meaningful input into the major policy decisions. You need to revise that particular political strategy. If you do not, the people will suffer further, and you will bear the consequences.”
“They are under the aegis of, and subject to the directions of, the Department of Health and the budgeting of the Department of Health and the Department of Finance and Personnel. Trusts are not some sort of magic body that conspires against the public. They are the responsibility of the DUP and Sinn Féin. Do not run away from the consequences of your political actions, which have led to this desperate situation and which will increase. This is the first in a series of Budgets that will lead to enormous cuts throughout the public service, not just in the health service but in the public service at large, and that will reduce services to the people of Northern Ireland. That will cause people outside to think again critically about how you are giving leadership.”
“— and I will tell you why. Staying in the Executive puts at least some constraints on the two parties that are causing the problems in the first place. Incidentally, we are entitled to remain, and we are entitled to criticise decisions that have been bad for the people of Northern Ireland. We will continue to do that, and I hope that the Ulster Unionists, along with the Alliance Party, will do the same thing. The people who suffer are the public, and we must defend the public interest. The DUP and Sinn Féin are incapable of defending the public interest and wish to pretend to the people outside that they have nothing to do with this mess, which is the fault of the trusts — trusts, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker. What are trusts? Are they some sort of magical bodies? They are not.”
“Of course, the reality in this situation is that both major parties are responsible for the mess that we are in. Unless you realise this, the situation will get worse. There will be more Dalriadas. There will be more Whiteabbeys. There will be more cuts throughout the health service.”
“No, I will not. My time is very short, and you had plenty of opportunity to make comments throughout the debate. <BR /> <BR />Although, for example, Mr McKay and indeed Miss McLaughlin come to the House to criticise the previous Minister, they do not accept that they have made a contribution to the inadequacies of health delivery in Northern Ireland. It is a sort of hokey-cokey politics:”
“This has been a very interesting debate, very interesting in the exposure of certain Members of the House, particularly those on the DUP and Sinn Féin Benches. There has been a lot of ducking and diving and a lot of avoidance and evasion. That is par for the course. Why? It is because they are scared of the impact of the decisions that they have made on budgeting. Not just the recent draft Budget but the 2011 Budget, which Mr McGimpsey referred to, and consequent Budgets that have starved the health service of adequate funding to deal with the situation on the ground. You cannot have it both ways: either you support a Budget or you do not. We did not support the Budget, the Ulster Unionists did not support the Budget, and you have to face up to the consequences of supporting sequential Budgets and the current Budget. The reality —”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Will she explain to me why, for example, cuts in services at Whiteabbey are taking place? Is that as a result of incompetence, mismanagement or budgetary pressures? That budget was one that she, as an individual member of the DUP, supported.”
“I thank the Minister for his very comprehensive reply in relation to the attack this morning. I share his condemnation of it and appeal to people to give information to the PSNI in relation to the attack, if they have it. I also share his view in relation to the Twaddell camp. Will he join with me in saying that the people who are protesting there have made their point and that it is now time for them to end that permanent demonstration and enter into dialogue with the local community?”
“I think that there is a political consensus that there needs to be a reduction in legal aid costs. However, will the Minister outline the specific savings that arise out of the change in the legal aid rules of 2011? What assistance has that been in reducing the pressures?”
“I thank the Minister for his candour in relation to the issue I raised with him. Part of the problem is the failure to have a strategic approach to dealing with all the units and accident and emergency units. I ask the Minister to reassure the House that he will look at a more strategic approach and not allow this sort of piecemeal process to take place.”
“I take the opportunity to congratulate the Minister on his appointment. I do not think that I have had an opportunity to do that. Or perhaps I should offer commiserations on his appointment. <BR /> <BR />We have heard quite a lot about Transforming Your Care, but, in situations in which front-line staff are affected, and there may well be redeployment as a result, can the Minister reassure staff that, in the event of that happening, redundancy packages will be made available to those staff who are being redeployed?”
“In the context of what the Minister referred to, in north Belfast, we have a very old part of the city. There is Clifton Street, including Clifton House, which is a very historic building. We also have the Grand Orange Lodge building as well, which was the former headquarters of the Orange Lodge in Belfast. In addition, we have other historic buildings, such as St Patrick's Church and also maybe 'The Irish News' building — I do not know whether it is historic or not. <BR /> <BR />In that context, how would the Minister prevent an adverse impact on the development of student accommodation in that area that might feed the student population of the new University of Ulster buildings in that area?”
“I thank the Minister for her answers. In relation to Horizon 2020, which is very important to research and development here in Northern Ireland, does the Minister agree that a less modest and more ambitious target could be achieved by us? Do the Minister and her Department have any plans to revise the target figure?”
“— that what is disgraceful and shameful is the collusion of the IRA and Sinn Féin in expelling people from Northern Ireland to the South in order to cover up their nefarious activities.”
“She has a very sensitive role, yet she has been involved in what appears to be, if not a full cover-up, at least a suppression of that cover-up or a suppression of the allegations made by Maíria Cahill. That reflects badly on her. <BR /> <BR />Earlier in the debate, I mentioned that, in England, Lady Butler-Sloss and Fiona Woolf had resigned over what, I believe, are less serious allegations. Where are the standards in public office? Martin McGuinness rails at us and says that we are shameful, a disgrace and so forth. He impugns the motives of people in the House, but let me tell you —”
“The debate is primarily about sexual abuse and the cover-up of that sexual abuse by the republican movement in relation to Maíria Cahill, but it also involves standards in office. Therefore, there is a focus on Jennifer McCann. In her address to the Assembly, she failed to persuade me and, I believe, other Members. She failed to explain why she did not report the abuse and why she did not proactively do something to defend the interests of Maíria Cahill. She did not do that, and that reflects very badly on her personally, as an office holder. She holds the office of junior Minister in the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister and has responsibility for the historical institutional abuse inquiry.”
“The Member has referred to Ms McCann, and she has an important role in the historical institutional abuse inquiry. Yesterday, in London, a lady who was appointed to head a similar type of inquiry resigned because of alleged associations with Leon Brittan. Previous to that, Lady Butler-Sloss also resigned, given other associations with Lord Brittan. Given that they resigned over those allegations, would it not be appropriate for Ms McCann to resign as a junior Minister, given that she faces similar allegations — in fact, worse allegations?”
“It would not surprise me what Sinn Féin would do tomorrow, because on every major issue, it has changed its mind. It changed its mind in relation to Stormont, power sharing, the Council of Ireland and the police. So, Sinn Féin might even tomorrow decide that it supports the border. I will end there.”
“If you want to speak, you can speak later. <BR /> <BR />Those are the contradictions that are encompassed within Sinn Féin. So, let nobody misunderstand the position of Sinn Féin when it comes to Europe. It is fundamentally antipathetic towards the European Union and it has always — always — opposed any major improvement in the European Union. <BR /> <BR />I will end there, which Mr Flanagan is probably happy about.”
“Thank you very much, Principal Deputy Speaker. I am glad of your ruling. <BR /> <BR />Another point was made about trying to remove borders in Ireland. What does Sinn Féin want? It wants to create a border in Spain, between the Basque Country and the rest of Spain. So, on the one hand, it wants to remove the border in Ireland, but, on the other, it wants to create a border in Spain. Those are the contradictions —”
“Well, there you are. You have something in common at last. <BR /> <BR />Of course —”
“Sinn Féin has opposed every major European development, whether it was Maastricht, Nice or Lisbon, which increased democracy and the powers of the European Parliament and allowed more people into the European Union by expanding it. <BR /> <BR />Sinn Féin opposed the creation of the European currency. It opposed the euro. It is only latterly that it has become supportive of it. I remember the time when, along with the 'Daily Mail' and perhaps the DUP, it wanted to retain the pound sterling. That is the reality. That was the position that your party adopted, so do not come —”
“No, I will not. You have made your point. <BR /> <BR />Mr Flanagan, of course, revealed the reality of Sinn Féin, which is that it is the Irish version of UKIP. It is as xenophobic and as Eurosceptic as UKIP. Indeed, I go further: it is not even Eurosceptic; it is anti-European. The Member who spoke previously talked about creating a single market in Ireland. There is a single market in Ireland. It came about as a result of the Maastricht treaty, which these people opposed. It created a single market in Europe. I know that other Members opposed it as well. We have a single market in Europe thanks to the European Union. We have much better and closer contact on the back of cross-border economic trade and development. That all emanates from the European Union. If these people had their way, we would be out of Europe.”
“That has not worked, despite pressure put on by the Irish Government and by former Minister Attwood and Minister Durkan. <BR /> <BR />Of course, the grandstanding by Sinn Féin on the issue has begun to fall apart, partly because of Mr Flanagan, who, from time to time, drops the mask. On this occasion, he expressed overt sympathy for UKIP. Mr McNarry is not here, but I am sure that he was very impressed when Mr Flanagan expressed his sympathy for UKIP. Of course, he is quite right to express —”
“No, I will not give way. You have filibustered for long enough for other reasons, which we all know about. <BR /> <BR />The point that I make to you, which has been made on a number of occasions during the debate, is that this is an excepted matter. The British Government have directly legislated for this, and they can and will enforce the charge, even if we, as a House, were to grant the prayer of annulment. In actual fact, this is a futile legislative exercise as well as an act of deception. <BR /> <BR />The merits of not having a charge have been well and truly illustrated. I have great sympathy for the people in Donegal and elsewhere on that. Although our unionist colleagues have not supported the exemption per se, they have not opposed our trying to get an exemption from the British Government.”
“I have a deep affection for the county, as, indeed, do many Members of the House. I know that the Donegal people are very sensible. They are not easily fooled and are not gullible. When they view this debate or read the text, they will understand that there is an attempt to try to deceive them. That attempt is being made by Sinn Féin Members. They do so because they want to curry favour. <BR /> <BR />As was stated in the House —”