Alban Maginness
North Belfast · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“I look at the Justice Committee, which was mentioned yesterday during the Justice Bill debate, and see it as an exemplar of how people can work together, despite their political differences, and create a political consensus in order to make worthwhile changes in the justice system.”
“I hope that, as I leave this place and a new mandate starts, I can relinquish the function of alchemist and that we will have a new dispensation in which we can, in fact, create that reconciliation, because the Assembly was created as a forum for reconciliation.”
“— people used to ask me what I did. I said that I was a fireman — a political fireman who put out political fires. That is what we did for the first five years or so: we put out political fires. I have become redundant, or semi-redundant, in relation to putting out political fires.”
“There is, indeed, a dark shadow over the Assembly as we prepare for the elections. The attack on Adrian Ismay was not just an attack on a prison officer; it was an attack on the Assembly, it was an attack on the political process and it was an attack on non-violence and peaceful politics.”
“I thank the representative of the Commission for her kind words. I have enjoyed working with Karen McKevitt and, indeed, with the Commission. In the programme, will there be an emphasis on dealing with legislation, particularly draft legislation? It is a process that needs considerable skill and knowledge. Is that available?”
“On this legislation, he helped to put forcefully the views of the Committee to the Assembly, the Minister and the Department of Justice, and I compliment him on his work. It has been very positive.”
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“That is the basis on which the world should intervene to protect the religious rights of people not just in the Middle East but in Africa and elsewhere in the world and, as Mrs Cochrane said, in North Korea in particular, where Christianity has been persecuted to a most extreme extent.”
“What Mr Wells and his colleagues have done is raise that voice and respond. We may not be the most powerful parliamentary voice in the world, but I think that we are a significant voice, and we add significant force to the plight of Christians throughout the world. <BR /> <BR />It is important that we remind the world and, in particular, the United Nations that there is a duty imposed on world organisations and world Governments to comply with article 18 of the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which states:”
“He has highlighted the fact that the world has been silent on the persecution of Christians. Yes, other minorities are being persecuted for religious and other reasons and we should show solidarity with them, but there is a specific problem in relation to the persecution of Christians. Some people have said that the persecution of Christians now is at a height greater than at the time of the early Christian Church. That is something for us to reflect on. <BR /> <BR />I refer to the remarks of the dean of St Columb's Cathedral in Derry, Dr William Morton. He quoted the Gospel of St Matthew. Quoting the words of Jesus, he said:”
“I thank Mr Wells and his colleagues for bringing the motion to the House. It is very timely. It highlights the very fact that the international community, for quite a long time, has ignored the specific and discrete persecution of Christians throughout the world. That is a very important thing to note. Indeed, it is worth quoting the former Chief Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks, who, when talking about the persecution of Christians, said:”
“It has to be dealt with in a manner that is reasonable and practical to the legal profession. <BR /> <BR />I will leave it there. I welcome and support the Minister's amendments.”
“<BR /> <BR />I know that this is not strictly ad rem, but, nonetheless, I hope that membership of the panels will be made up primarily, if not exclusively, of lawyers. I know that the Minister conceded that lawyers should chair the panels, but it is my view that they know what they are doing in relation to difficult and complex legal issues and are in the best position to make a judgement. I hope that lawyers will at least be in the majority — at least two out of the three, including the chair. <BR /> <BR />In relation to regulations in the appointment of counsel, solicitors and so forth; again, that is an important function and the Assembly will have an input to that. I hope that we will have a further discussion and consultation with the relevant stakeholders in relation to that important issue.”
“I just want to agree with the Chair of the Committee. I think he was slightly ungracious towards the Minister. I am sure that, on foot of the comments made by the Examiner of Statutory Rules, the Minister would have taken his own initiative and introduced the amendments. The amendments are to be welcomed. They mean that the Assembly has a further input into the drafting and the legislation in relation to the rules. That is to be welcomed. <BR /> <BR />The panels are a very important mechanism. I will just take this opportunity to pay tribute to those who have taken part in the appeals committee for the legal aid fund over the years. They performed their work very well and very responsibly, in my opinion, and did so in a very dedicated, professional fashion.”
“Does the Minister recognise the tremendous historic contribution by the Churches across the board — Catholic and Protestant — to education in Northern Ireland and Ireland as a whole and the current contribution that the Churches make to education? If so, will he affirm that?”
“Once the business case is received, what is the indicative time frame for giving the library the green light, as it were?”
“The Minister has rightly condemned the sectarian behaviour of the Druids. Other Members have done so as well. Does she agree with me that the organising committee acted in a forthright manner in also condemning the remarks? Will she further allow an application by the fleadh organisers to extend cross-community outreach?”
“The Minister referred to the local community. Would he urge the university to maintain a sustained and meaningful dialogue with the local community, particularly around assistance, not just with jobs but in using the university's facilities and services?”
“Could that category of cases, whether it be judicial review or any other type of case, be prohibited from being considered by the legal aid fund? It is very important that the Minister reassure the House and those outside the House who have raised the issue before the Committee. <BR /> <BR />I will conclude there. I look forward to the Minister's comments on Mr Elliott's amendments. I commend Mr Elliott for bringing forward the amendments, because they do exercise one's mind, and the mind of the House, and raise important and quite fundamental issues in relation to the Bill.”
“I know that the Law Centre in Belfast was quite concerned about this, as were others from the Law Society and the Bar Council, and individual practitioners. Take as an example the Department running short of money, or something of that nature, and deciding to direct that the legal aid fund should not fund judicial reviews taken against public bodies and governmental decisions. That would be a very powerful instrument in the hands of government to prevent ordinary citizens without proper funding from taking action against the Administration, the Executive or some public body. That would, in my opinion, have a detrimental effect on civic life and could occasion injustice. I would like the Minister to tell the House whether, in dealing with that category of cases, and in those circumstances, that could actually happen.”
“That is the problem for us as legislators. What Mr Elliott is doing in his amendments is emphasising the point that there has to be that independent decision-making. That is the intent of his removal of direction. I am informed, again by the Department, that that could, in fact, have the opposite effect and confuse the whole business of the independence of decision-making. I am uncertain as to whether that would be the effect. If that would be the effect, obviously Mr Elliott's amendments should not be favoured. So we are in a quandary. I ask the Minister to provide clarity for the House on Mr Elliott's amendments. <BR /> <BR />Could I make one further point, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker? It relates not to individual decision-making but to the power of direction in relation to a category of cases.”
“<BR /> <BR />Again, as the Chair stated, one awaits the Minister's reply to Mr Elliott's very cogent arguments on his amendments. It is difficult for Members to make up their minds now without hearing the Minister. It might even have been appropriate to have the Minister speak immediately after Mr Elliott so that we could, in fact, evaluate the Minister's arguments. <BR /> <BR />The other aspect is the independence of decision-making. The Minister and the Department have indicated a number of assurances, reassurances and safeguards on individual decision-making by the legal aid casework director. However, when you are outside a Department looking in and you see things like directions and guidance and so forth in the legislation, you begin to wonder whether independent decision-making is, in fact, safeguarded.”
“I understand that there is some concern in the Department that Mr Elliott's amendments will not achieve that purpose and will, in fact, undermine it because, at this moment in time, there are open competitions. For example, I believe that there was an open competition for a permanent secretary in the Northern Ireland Civil Service recently. The question for me and, I think, for others in this House is this: does the current system permit that to happen in this instance, or is it necessary for Mr Elliott's amendments to be made to bring that about? I think that that is the question that we have to ask ourselves. There are indications coming from the Department — I will put it no stronger than that — that Mr Elliott's amendments could, in fact, undermine that. It would certainly be unintended and extremely unfortunate if that were to be.”
“Given the way in which the body has been run for so many years, I think that it is important that there is a new leadership. I understand what the Minister says about a transition. I think that it is important that there is, at least, a continuity in the transition to the new body. I accept that the current chief executive would be appropriate in that position, although how long that transition would last is a matter that should, in fact, be clarified. The important thing, however, is to allow an opportunity for this House and members of the Justice Committee in particular to be reassured by the Minister that there will be an opportunity for non-civil servants to compete openly for this position at some time in the near future. <BR /> <BR />That is the intent of Mr Elliott's amendments.”
“He emphasised the importance of a fresh incumbent being brought in to this very important post. That incumbent could be a civil servant but could also be somebody from outside the Civil Service. I agree with him: I think that that is a very strong point to make. He is not being prescriptive; he is not saying that there shall not be a civil servant or that there should be an outsider but that there should, at least, be an opportunity for an outsider to come in.”
“In general terms, the SDLP welcomes the change that the Bill will bring about in establishing an executive agency in the Department to deal with legal aid. Clearly, the previous commission had become unfit for purpose, particularly its forecasting and financial assurance. The commission failed, and failed quite badly. Now, there is an opportunity for a new body to deal efficiently and effectively with legal aid. We hope that that can be achieved through the changes. <BR /> <BR />We have already indicated our support for the Bill, but the amendments tabled by Mr Elliott raise a number of interesting points about the director of legal aid casework. His amendments are certainly very well intentioned, because their purpose is to ensure that proper independence is established in the exercise of this new office.”
“Is that apposite because is not the reality that, when one talks about cross-border security issues, is one not talking really about dealing with paramilitary activities, subversion and activities of that nature rather than crime per se? I would have thought that fuel laundering, for example, would be a totally appropriate subject for both Ministers to discuss in an official capacity and to deal with directly.”
“The Minister then went on to identify some of those issues:”
“I welcome the Minister's statement. The Minister said in the penultimate paragraph:”
“That is an indication of the intent of the organising committee to take effective action.”
“I quote from the concluding remarks of the public statement by the chair of the committee:”
“— and it should not happen. I believe that the people who organise this event should be encouraged and not condemned. They have taken the right steps to remedy something that was wrong.”
“Finally, withdrawing all public funding for this series of events — this valuable community enterprise — would effectively punish everybody. It is a punitive step. It is disproportionate —”
“I believe that that is an accurate statement. I also believe that the fleadh committee have taken on board the challenges that have arisen out of this incident. They said that they will be:”
“There could not be a more forthright condemnation by the fleadh committee, and I think that it is important for Members to take that on board. They further said:”
“They see a value in developing and enriching the community and helping young people, and part of their function is to create a cross-community interaction. Many young people from the Shankill Road, for example, have been invited to fleadh events. In June, there was a sleepover by young people in the open air to highlight the problems of homelessness in Belfast. That was a very positive thing and is the type of thing that they do. It is done on a cross-community basis. The fleadh committee have said, in a very forthright manner, that they did not accept the remarks. They said they regretted any offence caused by a sectarian comment made at the concert on Sunday night:”
“No, I am not going to accept you. You made your point twice. The Member should reconsider what he said and, in fact, withdraw it because I think it causes serious damage for a public representative and learned counsel to make the statement that he made. <BR /> <BR />I agree entirely with the forthright statement made by the fleadh organising committee. Remember that they are volunteers and people who work for nothing. They work for the community because they see a value —”
“Thank you very much. I do not know the detail of the file that was presented. I do not know the ins and outs of that, but I know that the police, in coming to their decision not to prosecute in this instance, took the advice of the PPS. That is clearly stated by the PSNI and the PPS. Indeed, in a public statement, the Director of Public Prosecutions said that it did not meet the threshold for prosecution. We have to accept that the director carries out his duties in an impartial fashion, and we have to accept that the police carry out their duties in an impartial fashion. If we do not accept that, where are we? We verge on anarchy.”
“I will take you in a moment. <BR /> <BR />If there is to be any change in relation to this investigation, let it be and we will deal with the consequence of that.”
“I do not suggest at all that it should be done in a slavish way; there is room for robust criticism but not for undermining the institutions of the PPS and the PSNI in the exercise of their duties. I believe that they carried out a proper investigation into this matter. If there is to be any change —”
“First of all, it is a bit rich for Nelson McCausland to be criticising sectarianism. There have been many instances in north Belfast when there have been acts of sectarianism on the part of the Orange and on the part of loyalists that have either been ignored by Mr McCausland or, indeed, have resulted in equivocal comments. I think that it is a bit rich, and I think that the people of Ardoyne and north Belfast will recognise that. <BR /> <BR />I think that Mr Allister should know better, particularly in relation to his remark that the police and the PPS have swept this issue under the carpet. That is an unacceptable comment by him and it undermines faith and confidence in the PPS and the PSNI. I believe that all of us have a duty to support the PSNI and the PPS.”
“I am quite surprised by Mr Allister's remarks today, but they parallel the remarks made by Mr Poots, and we all note the very vigorous reaction by the Lord Chief Justice.”
“I thank the Minister for his statement, and for his courage in making this decision in relation to BMAP, which is long overdue. There seems to be much in the plan for investors, but what is in it for those who are suffering from social deprivation? That is a question that many people will be asking.”
“I thank the deputy First Minister for his answer. I understand the position that there have not been any discussions to date, but, in the event of a result one way or t'other, is it not incumbent on the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister to enter into discussions with the Edinburgh Government on the outcome, because there will be implications no matter what way the vote goes?”
“<BR /> <BR />I wish Carl well. It is good to see a Tigers Bay man doing well, and it is good to see someone from a humble background doing well. He is a charismatic and modest individual, but he has shown his worth to all of us. He is a tremendous role model, I think, for many young people here in Northern Ireland. I look forward to his civic reception in Belfast, where the Lord Mayor, Nichola Mallon, will welcome him in due course. I hope that I get an invitation.”
“We are a very talented lot in north Belfast, and that is not just the politicians. It includes Mr Carl Frampton, and, of course, we are all delighted at his wonderful achievement. There is something in the air in north Belfast that produces very fine boxers — as well as politicians. Carl really proved himself and united the community in popular support right across the divide. He is a champion — a world champion — and that is something for all of us to be exceptionally proud of. I hope that he does well in the future. He has put Belfast on the map once again in sporting terms. We have had quite a number of boxers from north Belfast: Michael Conlon and Paddy Barnes, and, of course, we also have Michaela Walsh. That is a great tribute to those people and to those who are involved in the sport in north Belfast and throughout Belfast.”