Alban Maginness
North Belfast · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“I look at the Justice Committee, which was mentioned yesterday during the Justice Bill debate, and see it as an exemplar of how people can work together, despite their political differences, and create a political consensus in order to make worthwhile changes in the justice system.”
“I hope that, as I leave this place and a new mandate starts, I can relinquish the function of alchemist and that we will have a new dispensation in which we can, in fact, create that reconciliation, because the Assembly was created as a forum for reconciliation.”
“— people used to ask me what I did. I said that I was a fireman — a political fireman who put out political fires. That is what we did for the first five years or so: we put out political fires. I have become redundant, or semi-redundant, in relation to putting out political fires.”
“There is, indeed, a dark shadow over the Assembly as we prepare for the elections. The attack on Adrian Ismay was not just an attack on a prison officer; it was an attack on the Assembly, it was an attack on the political process and it was an attack on non-violence and peaceful politics.”
“I thank the representative of the Commission for her kind words. I have enjoyed working with Karen McKevitt and, indeed, with the Commission. In the programme, will there be an emphasis on dealing with legislation, particularly draft legislation? It is a process that needs considerable skill and knowledge. Is that available?”
“On this legislation, he helped to put forcefully the views of the Committee to the Assembly, the Minister and the Department of Justice, and I compliment him on his work. It has been very positive.”
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“The business of accountability in public office is very important, and the Bill creates the potential for doing that. The Committee should be congratulated for its good work on the Bill. It was lengthy and, I suppose, tedious work but, nonetheless, it was important. The Committee, ably assisted by its staff, achieved a lot. <BR /> <BR />The two offices — the Assembly Ombudsman for Northern Ireland, as provided for in the Ombudsman (Northern Ireland) Order 1996, and the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Complaints, as provided for in the Commissioner for Complaints (Northern Ireland) Order 1996 — will effectively be combined. The Committee considered the proposal at length, and the SDLP was at the heart of that to ensure that the Bill contained appropriate and robust accountability mechanisms for the public.”
“I welcome the opportunity to take part in the debate. I do so in place of my colleague on the OFMDFM Committee, Mr Alex Attwood, who sends his apologies for being unable to attend today because of family matters. <BR /> <BR />I listened carefully to the Chair's fairly lengthy introduction to the Second Stage. The Bill is to be welcomed, and the SDLP supports the basic principles underlying it. In particular, the legislation attempts to create a fusion of the statutory offices that have been referred to. It will create one statutory office, which will inevitably create, in our view, a higher level of accountability in relation to complaints. It is important that we achieve that, and, by bringing the Bill together, we are well on the road to doing so. The SDLP fully supports that principle.”
“I welcome the Minister's response to the question. Certainly, purposeful activity seems to me to be the central requirement of the CJINI report, but it should also be emphasised that it is positive about the overall running of the prison. The retention of the current ethos, which is very positive, should be at the centre. Does the Minister agree?”
“However, let me say this: with the NCA, we now have an opportunity; it has the powers that are required to deal fully with this crime. We in the SDLP have suspected, in the past at least, that a light-touch approach was taken to this form of criminal. I hope that we are wrong; but there certainly was a very strong suspicion that effort was not put in to deal with this type of criminality. If that was in fact the situation, let it be in the past. We now move to a new situation where the NCA can show its mettle and really tackle this insidious crime, which has so long dogged legitimate enterprise, business and trading throughout Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />I will conclude simply by saying that I hope that all colleagues in the House support our amendment, which strengthens the motion.”
“It is very important for all of us to identify this as criminality at its worst, and I take on board the remarks made by Mr McCartney and Mr Lynch, on behalf of Sinn Féin, that they regard this activity as criminality. Historically, however, the provisional republican movement was involved in it: there is little doubt about that; it is not even speculation. It is important that, if Sinn Féin recognises this criminality now as a contemporary crime, it should also recognise that, in the past, fuel laundering was a historic crime. <BR /> <BR />It has had some very bad impacts on the environment; that has been well outlined by various Members throughout the debate. It has affected the natural environment, natural watercourses and so forth.”
“The effect of it has been to corrupt, first of all, those involved in fuel laundering, but also those involved in business because, at times, they have been pressurised, forced and almost blackmailed into using such fuel, receiving it and cooperating to some extent. It has therefore corrupted legitimate business, and that is wrong, cancerous and something that, I believe, we should all try to end. <BR /> <BR />I hope that the introduction of the marker and the National Crime Agency, with its full force and resources, will give the public, and those engaged in business, confidence to resist the pressures that there may be out there in the community.”
“I thank all those who participated in the debate and who added to the debate on the amendment brought forward by my colleagues in the SDLP. Let me say that this is a very pernicious activity on the part of criminals, and I accept what Mr Bell said, that, as an Assembly, we should collectively send a clear message to those criminal groups that their time is up. I believe that this debate is appropriate and timely, because it sends a strong message. As the Minister said, the introduction of the new marker in relation to fuel will — I share the Minister's confidence — make it extremely difficult for people to launder fuel as they have done hitherto. Therefore, it is the right moment to send the right message to the right people. <BR /> <BR />This is a criminal conspiracy that has been going on for years, and it needs to end now.”
“I thank the Minister for his previous answers. I want to ask about the point that has just been raised about the £50·5 million, and I ask without prejudice to the Minister making any decision. If, for some reason, the Arc21 project were not to go ahead, is the Minister saying that that £50·5 million could, at some point, go back to Westminster if there is no other project in which that money could properly be invested?”
“I thank the Minister for her interesting answers. Does she envisage that the devolution of more economic power to councils will continue over the years? It seems to me that the local council, particularly in rural areas, has an important and pivotal role to play in economic development.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. I understand what the Minister says about legal niceties and so on and support him in that, but at the nub of this is whether the Minister can exercise his discretion. I believe that he can exercise his discretion positively by looking at the circumstances of the Worton case and coming to the conclusion that there was serious default by the police. Are you suggesting to the House that there is no substance in that proposition?”
“It is important that we pursue this with vigour and that the Minister of Justice exercises his discretion positively in favour of Mr Worton.”
“I do not think that you can segment it. <BR /> <BR />In addition, in Lord Justice Basil Kelly's judgement there is sufficient to come to the conclusion that there was serious default. Central to that judgement was the fact that there was a vulnerable young man being questioned by the police and all sorts of things were happening, things that Mr Justice Kelly described as bizarre things — bizarre allegations and so forth. If you take those things in the round, that, in itself, comes to serious default, but, if you add the position in relation to the other defendants together with the position in relation to Mr Worton, you have grounds for serious default or, alternatively, exceptional circumstances. That should be applied in this case. <BR /> <BR />I will conclude there and simply say that we support the motion.”
“You accept that; thank you for that clarification. There are really two grounds: one is a wider ground, which is exceptional circumstances, and the other is serious default. What I cannot understand is this: in the totality of the circumstances of the case, where three of the UDR four were acquitted by the Court of Appeal on the ground that there was manipulation or rewriting of the confession statements, it seems to me that that represents or could represent serious default. It may well be said, "Does that affect the case of Mr Worton?". I think that it does, because you have to take the case in its totality. I do not think that you can segment the case and say, "Well, this only applied to Mr Worton. What happened to the other defendants in the case is irrelevant". I do not think that you can do that.”
“I accept that point, and I am grateful to the Member for highlighting it. It is important, during the debate, to reflect on that carefully, and I think that the Minister of Justice should reflect on that and reflect on it carefully. Where I disagree with the Member, if I heard her correctly, is that she does not believe that there was serious default in this instance. I think that there was serious —”
“That, I believe, is the essential criterion involved in this case.”
“<BR /> <BR />It seems clear from Mr Justice Treacy's judicial review that the central part of the exercise of that discretion is that the relevant Minister has to be satisfied that it resulted from a serious default on the part of a member of the police force or some other public authority.”
“I think that all of us in the House should be supportive of his campaign, no matter about the generality of other issues with which I have great sympathy as a lawyer and as someone who has pursued in my political career human rights justice and fairness for everybody, irrespective of where they come from in this community. <BR /> <BR />Unlike those who were convicted in the UDR four case and then acquitted, Mr Worton is unable to obtain compensation under section 133 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988. Therefore, he is thrown to the discretion of the Secretary of State — in this instance, its successor in title, the Minister of Justice — to decide whether he is entitled to compensation.”
“I know that in his campaign for the pursuit of justice, Colin Worton has been persistent and, indeed, courageous. However, if he were permitted to speak here today as a Member, he would also say that he is committed to justice for Adrian Carroll. I think that that is an important thing to remember in the circumstances of this man's case and of his suffering. He did suffer. He was held in custody for 30 months, which, if he had been sentenced to five years, is the equivalent of five years' imprisonment. So, the extent of time in custody for a crime that he clearly did not commit gives rise to a very serious case of injustice.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. The ex gratia compensation scheme, which was operated by successive Governments up until 2006, as I understand it, still applies to Mr Worton, and it is within the terms of that ex gratia scheme that the Minister of Justice, as the successor in title to the Secretary of State, can exercise that discretion. That is the nub of the matter. Does the Member agree?”
“I thank the deputy First Minister for his reply. Given the overall fairly critical responses by consultees — I note the deputy First Minister's point about having a thoughtful look at it — is it not necessary to do more radical surgery to what has been outlined by your Department?”
“The Minister is supportive of that Budget. Will she now withdraw her support from that Budget?”
“I thank the Minister for her reply, although I do not find it that satisfactory, and nor will members of the arts community. I will put the blame where the blame lies, with her and her party and with the Executive, which passed a bad Budget. The Minister is —”
“I thank the Minister for his report. I note that, in relation to the future work programme, there is a proposal to have carers as the next topic. It seems to me that, if sufficient resources were given to carers, that in itself would be a very progressive step in preventative spend. Will the Minister give us a flavour of what is meant by the topic of carers? In what direction does he think the various jurisdictions will go?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. He may note that the Committee for Regional Development discussed recently an alternative to the full-scale model that has been suggested for the interchange. Will the Minister take that on board when considering the results of the consultation that he has embarked upon?”
“It would seem that the cuts have been imposed by the Executive on this Assembly, which is a very odd thing constitutionally when the Executive are accountable to this Assembly. Were the cuts imposed by the Executive or were they unilaterally made by the Assembly, as should have been the case? Will those cuts, as presently planned, not damage the capacity of this Assembly collectively and Assembly Members individually to carry out their work?”
“I thank the Minister for her detailed reply and welcome the progress that is being made, particularly in relation to China. I attended a meeting recently that the Chinese consul general attended, and certainly there is great potential there. How much progress is being made on export licences issued by DEFRA?”
“That, I believe, is a sensible approach, which preserves the independence of the Attorney General and which allows the Attorney General the freedom to interact with the Assembly through, effectively, the Assembly's Committees. I think that that is a sensible way forward, and I hope that it will find favour with the rest of the House.”
“There is no need for that to be embodied in Standing Orders. There is also the referral of a Bill after Final Stage to the Supreme Court. There are existing arrangements. The Attorney General can be called to a relevant Committee to make a statement and to answer questions as to why that reference took place. That is important to note. <BR /> <BR />The Attorney General should also not be required to give views on the content or competence of a Bill prior to Final Stage. Again, that is important to note. <BR /> <BR />Then, with regard to the annual report laid by the Attorney General, he can attend a nominated Committee at that Committee's request to make statements and to answer questions. That Committee should invariably be the Justice Committee.”
“<BR /> <BR />Therefore it was important, in coming to conclusions, to preserve that independence and to look at the way in which the Attorney General could relate to the Assembly. Whilst it is a fairly conservative report, insofar as it does not give the Attorney General active rights in the Assembly itself, it realises that the Attorney General's independence should not be prejudiced in any way. It is no reflection on the personality of the current Attorney General, who has served the Executive and his public office with great credit, nor is it to do with any other aspect of the functioning of that office, but there is a necessity for the Assembly to explore it. It has explored it and has come to the conclusion that, on the issue of questions, questions can in fact be asked of the Attorney General at any stage.”
“Therefore, the statute gives a permissive power to the Attorney General. That, of course, is to be enacted by the Assembly at its discretion. <BR /> <BR />The important aspect of the report is the emphasis that it puts on the Attorney General's being independent of the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister, the Northern Ireland Executive and Northern Ireland Departments. Of course, he or she is also expressly barred from being a member of the legislature itself. The important point to make about that is that, when we looked at other models of how Attorneys General related to the respective legislatures, it was clear that there was no uniform position and that, in any event, the position of other Attorneys General was, in fact, quite different from the unique statutory position of our own Attorney General.”
“As the report notes, the Justice (Northern Ireland) Act 2002 states that:”
“I thank the Chair for his contribution to this debate and his work in leading the Committee on this issue. I also want to thank the Committee staff, who carried out very diligent work on this matter. <BR /> <BR />To fully understand this report, one has to understand that the Attorney General in Northern Ireland has a unique position.”
“— to bring it to the PSNI. I will end there, but I simply say: do not give up.”
“It is important that an encouragement of that sort be given to those who have an intimate knowledge of what happened and who may have been involved in the despicable actions that led to Lisa's death. It is important that we emphasise that in the hope that we can encourage people to come forward and give information to the PSNI or, as I have said, the commission. I would hope that that would be successful. It is so important for a family to find closure on the disappearance and death of a loved one. <BR /> <BR />All of us in the House lend our support to the encouragement that Mr Weir has given to those outside the House who have information —”
“The suggestion by Mr Farry about the commission for the disappeared being extended to this incident is a good one. The reason why I say that is because, under the terms of that commission, information can be given in full confidence without any penalty. Further to that, any evidence derived from the discovery of the remains of an individual victim is not permitted to be used in any criminal proceedings. That is important because it gives a degree of immunity to those who may have been associated with the dreadful disappearance of Lisa Dorrian. <BR /> <BR />From what Mr Weir and his colleagues have said, the family do not seek prosecutions; their first desire is the return of the remains, and, for them, justice is secondary.”
“I thank Mr Weir for bringing forward this debate. It is very appropriate and timely given the tenth anniversary of the disappearance of this young lady who is now presumed to be dead as the result of murder; there seems to be very little doubt that that was her end. <BR /> <BR />To the Dorrian family, in particular to John and Patricia Dorrian, I give my party's support and solidarity in their difficult time. I say this to them: do not give up. I repeat that: do not give up. The families of the disappeared, who were kidnapped and murdered by republican terrorists and buried in unknown graves, did not give up. They mounted a very successful campaign to try to find out where their remains where and have those remains returned. It has not been completely successful, but there have certainly been successes, so I say this: do not give up.”
“I encourage the Minister to listen very carefully to all stakeholders in the justice system so that we do not damage access to justice. I make those points in a non-adversarial manner and offer them as advice to the House and the Minister. I hope that we can avoid damaging the system with reforms that are ill thought-out or are imitative of reforms in Britain that have proven to be a complete disaster. If you do not believe me, you should read the Public Accounts Committee report on the matters that are before the House. I will leave it there, but the Department must take that on board.”
“It is very important that appeals be as transparent and independent as possible in the circumstances. I hope that those who are attracted to the panels will obtain the confidence of the community at large, not just the applicants but those involved in the legal services at large: barristers, solicitors and so forth. It is a good step forward, and I welcome it, as, I think, do most in the legal profession. However, we have to wait and see how the new system will work. I wish it well. <BR /> <BR />I want to make one further point that is relevant to the legislation. The Department has embarked on legal aid reform, which is important. I support that, my party supports it and, I think, most parties in the Assembly support it. However, the Department and the Minister may be going a step too far with some of the reforms.”
“I welcome the statutory rule and the Minister's statement on it. It is good to see progress being made on the administrative reform of legal aid. We welcome that, because it is important that we make progress. The Committee, as the Chair indicated, has been supportive, and the work that was done with the Committee, the Minister and the Department to get this new arrangement for appeals has been productive and very helpful. That is an indication of the good relationship that there usually is between the Committee and the Department. <BR /> <BR />I would like to see the new system in action in order to make a judgement on it. It is probably going in the right direction, as it is important that there be a legally qualified person presiding over the appeals.”
“I thank the Minister for his answers. Last week, I received a bundle of letters from young barristers, male and female, who were struggling at the Bar and who were certainly earning less than the minimum wage. Will the Minister now like to apologise to those young men and women for his dismissive and ill-informed remarks about their income?”
“I thank the Minister for his very detailed response. During that meeting on Thursday, was there a point when the Sinn Féin representatives expressed the view that there was a red line on supplementary payments that they could not go over and that they would, in fact, reject the Welfare Reform Bill?”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I just want to apologise because I crossed by Mr Agnew when he was speaking. I really do apologise.”
“Climate change should not only be, as he pointed out, on the agenda of the North/South Ministerial Council but on agenda of the British-Irish council as well. Can joint efforts be made across these islands by all the Administrations to tackle climate change?”
“The Member talks about the over-concentration and saturation point. In accordance with standard planning decision-making, planners look at individual applications. With restaurants or fast-food bars, for example, they do not say there are 20 fast-food bars on the Antrim Road, therefore we will not entertain any further ones. It is the individual applications that the planners look at.”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, I am nearly at an end. I just want to say to the House that it is very important to have community engagement in all of this. I think that it will solve a lot of problems because the whole community is benefiting, not just some individuals in the community. I believe that that is a way forward in rural areas, and I hope that the good example shown in Slaughtneil can, in fact, be followed —”
“An alternative to that, of course, is to engage the community in proactively developing alternative sources of energy. Indeed, this afternoon, I had the honour of attending the all-party group on co-operatives and mutuals, and the major theme there was using cooperatives or social enterprises of different sorts to involve the local community in the development of renewable energy, be it wind, solar energy or whatever. There is a very good example in Slaughtneil in County Derry, where the local community has come together in a social enterprise and has created wind energy by investing in a turbine. That is a benefit to the community for the next 20 years. The local school will benefit, the local sporting club will benefit and the community at large will benefit from that. That is very important, and I think that we should learn from that —”
“<BR /> <BR />Throughout the inquiry, I think that the Committee worked to try to gauge the views of people who were concerned about different aspects of planning and so forth, and the report self-evidently addresses those issues. I hope that the Minister in due course will look at the report, be cognisant of the concerns that have been expressed by members of the public and take some action to ameliorate those concerns. <BR /> <BR />One thing that impressed me was the attempts by those who are building wind farms or turbines to try to engage with the community. I think that that is very important. I think that, sometimes, their efforts are misunderstood and that it is thought that they are bribing a section of the community. I think that that is very unfair.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I thank the Member for his intervention. I think that it is fallacious to say that wind energy is expensive. The fact is that, at this point in the development of wind energy as an alternative source of energy, it has to be subsidised because of the capital costs involved. This is an initial period, and it will, over time, decrease in its cost to the consumer and to society at large. I do accept the point that the Member made about the cost to industry, and, of course, the House is aware of that. The regulator is also aware of that, and, indeed, industry has taken significant steps to address that by also, curiously enough, using alternative renewable sources of energy to create its own in-house source of energy to provide for whatever it is producing. Those are my initial points.”
“— and I see the Member for East Antrim anxiously waving across the Benches, so I will give way to him.”
“We, in this part of Europe, are blessed in having access to a considerable amount of wind, which is free and a source of renewable energy. It is important that we celebrate that —”