Alban Maginness
North Belfast · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“I look at the Justice Committee, which was mentioned yesterday during the Justice Bill debate, and see it as an exemplar of how people can work together, despite their political differences, and create a political consensus in order to make worthwhile changes in the justice system.”
“I hope that, as I leave this place and a new mandate starts, I can relinquish the function of alchemist and that we will have a new dispensation in which we can, in fact, create that reconciliation, because the Assembly was created as a forum for reconciliation.”
“— people used to ask me what I did. I said that I was a fireman — a political fireman who put out political fires. That is what we did for the first five years or so: we put out political fires. I have become redundant, or semi-redundant, in relation to putting out political fires.”
“There is, indeed, a dark shadow over the Assembly as we prepare for the elections. The attack on Adrian Ismay was not just an attack on a prison officer; it was an attack on the Assembly, it was an attack on the political process and it was an attack on non-violence and peaceful politics.”
“I thank the representative of the Commission for her kind words. I have enjoyed working with Karen McKevitt and, indeed, with the Commission. In the programme, will there be an emphasis on dealing with legislation, particularly draft legislation? It is a process that needs considerable skill and knowledge. Is that available?”
“On this legislation, he helped to put forcefully the views of the Committee to the Assembly, the Minister and the Department of Justice, and I compliment him on his work. It has been very positive.”
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“Mr Speaker, I will try to obey your injunction in relation to the confines of this particular debate. We did in fact try to expand the motion to include the wider issues to which Mr Lynch referred. I agree with him that the appointment of a new senior coroner is a belated exercise. He is quite right to be critical of that, and we share his concerns in relation to this matter. It seems that there has been a serious and material delay in the appointment process. Let us hope that that process is expedited and that an appointment can be made quickly. <BR /> <BR />I also refer to the fact that the Coroners Service review made a number of recommendations. Those 13 recommendations are pertinent to this debate, narrow though it may well be. In particular, recommendation 8 is:”
“I thank the Minister for his answers. As a strong supporter of his prisons reform programme, I congratulate him on the progress that has been made. However, what impact have cuts to the Budget had on the implementation of the reform programme?”
“I thank the Minister for his answers. I join the Minister in congratulating Northern Ireland Environment Link and the Chair and Deputy Chair of the Environment Committee for promoting Environment Week here. I congratulate the Minister for his participation in that. <BR /> <BR />Apropos what he said about climate change legislation, does the Minister think that there is any way of building consensus in the Northern Ireland Executive and, indeed, the Assembly in order that we can all go forward together in bringing about an agreed Act? It is essential that we work together and map out an approach that will be beneficial to the whole community.”
“Arising out of the Minister's answer to Mrs Overend, will the Minister outline any trends that there might be in relation to students here in Northern Ireland undertaking GCSEs or A levels under the English or Welsh education authorities?”
“I hear what the Minister says. Obviously, there is a business plan there, but given the fact that our economy is developing and the construction industry is developing and growing — perhaps not at the pace that we would like, but growing nonetheless — does she believe that, in fact, there is sufficient timber production that will meet and serve the needs of the economy here in Northern Ireland?”
“I thank the Minister for her detailed reply. I agree with her that, in the efforts to combat crime, the whole issue of Farm Watch is very important. Leaving that for a moment and looking at how crime has developed, there is a North/South dimension. There is a cross-border trade in goods, equipment, farm machinery and livestock that has been stolen. Would it not be appropriate, therefore, for the Minister to embark on an intensive North/South programme to combat agricultural crime?”
“<BR /> <BR />The Bill is to be welcomed. We look forward to the Committee's work in scrutinising it. I am sure that issues that we have not yet detected in these proceedings will occur during the Committee's scrutiny. The Committee takes its work extremely seriously. We are blessed with good leadership from the Chairperson and, indeed, the Deputy Chairperson, if I might say so, and people take their work seriously. The work will be conducted on a very serious basis. I will finish by saying that the Minister's approach to reforming the system of justice is a proper one and one that is now bearing fruit.”
“I was going to make a further point, although it is probably academic, given that it is an entirely voluntary procedure. I was wondering whether EU citizens came under this provision. I was not sure from reading the Bill whether that was the case. Is a distinction made in the Bill between foreign prisoners and EU prisoners? Certainly, transfer is a right and proper way of proceeding, and I have no problems in principle with that. <BR /> <BR />I was not aware that lay visitors could not visit all police premises. The Bill fills that gap, which is welcome. I welcome the provision in relation to sexual offences; it is a right and proper protection. The possession of pornographic images of rape and assault by penetration is, quite properly, covered, which everybody in the House and indeed outside it would welcome.”
“There should be maximum transparency. Yes, there may be a need for some residual protection, but we have to look at the guidance, as it is called, very carefully to ensure that we are not in some way tying the hands of the Prisoner Ombudsman. I raise that issue, and we will come to it and consider it. I know that the issues are politically very sensitive, but we have a history and an experience here that has been rather tragic and regrettable and we should not simply give a blank cheque for issues involving national security. <BR /> <BR />There are provisions concerning the transfer of foreign prisoners. That is a right and proper thing to do in the circumstances. My understanding, if the Minister will confirm it, is that that is a voluntary procedure on foot of what the —”
“There was a wall of silence from the naval authorities — effectively, the state. It was not just a wall of silence but silence about their responsibility and at least one denial, if not more, of involvement. Happily, that incident has been resolved, in so far as the naval authorities have admitted involvement and so forth. <BR /> <BR />It could be that, in such circumstances, the state and the Ministry of Defence could say, "Well, it's a national security matter. Therefore, we don't reveal anything". That was a minor incident in some respects but a major incident for the people who were involved. When we talk about national security in relation to the ombudsman's work, particularly deaths in custody, which the ombudsman will investigate under the Bill — he already has powers to do that — we should be extremely careful.”
“I was a little concerned about clause 38, "Guidance to Ombudsman in relation to matters connected with national security". When I see "national security", alarm bells go off in my ears, and I begin to think, "What is happening here?". I was listening this morning to the report on the radio about the fishermen who encountered a British submarine and were dragged back by it. In fact, their boat nearly capsized, which, of course, would have imperilled the lives of the fishermen and crew. The circumstances were such that there was a denial by the British navy that there was any involvement of a British naval vessel. That went on for at least three months, until, eventually, they owned up and said, "Yes, we were involved. We're very sorry, and we want to compensate you for that".”
“It gives greater independence to that office, and that is something that we should congratulate the Minister on doing. I look forward to looking at the detail of that.”
“Maybe I am wrong; maybe I have a narrower view of the purpose of the ombudsman's office, but I think that we should carefully consider the title. It may, in practice, be a meaningless distinction to make, but I would prefer the term "Prisoner Ombudsman" at this time. However, I am subject to persuasion. Can the Minister explain why he prefers "Prison Ombudsman"? Unless there is a considerable change in the substance of the remit of the Prisoner Ombudsman, I would have to be convinced that the change in title is appropriate. <BR /> <BR />I welcome what the Minister is doing in relation to the Prisoner Ombudsman, because a number of ombudsmen have sought to have that office exist on a statutory basis.”
“I do not believe that any child has been incarcerated as a result of fine defaulting, but the very fact that that could technically be done, according to the statute book, is offensive, and that power ought to be removed. <BR /> <BR />I will move on to the Prisoner Ombudsman, and I say that deliberately, because we presently have a Prisoner Ombudsman; not a Prison Ombudsman. That may be a fine point of detail, and it may be irritating to nitpick about the title, but I am not entirely convinced that it would be correct to change the title from Prisoner Ombudsman to Prison Ombudsman. The purpose of the ombudsman's office, as I understand it — I might be wrong on this — is to deal with maladministration in relation to prisoners and not in relation to the prison.”
“We have to consider that people are like that, and we have to be compassionate. At the same time, it is right and proper that powers are given to the state to deal effectively with fine defaulting. <BR /> <BR />Of course, it is not simply about defaulting on fines. It is also about compensation orders and so forth. It is unfair that victims of crime who receive compensation orders are deprived of the benefit of those orders by people defaulting. It is, therefore, right and proper that we make arrangements in relation to that as well. <BR /> <BR />The Minister's division between "can't pay" and "won't pay" is a useful one and will be a useful guide and benchmark for the Committee in considering the clauses before us.”
“The balance that the Minister has established in the clauses he has presented before us is a good one. We in the Committee will analyse and scrutinise the clauses in detail in due course. <BR /> <BR />We have to be mindful of those who, because of their financial and social circumstances, find it difficult to pay fines. We must be humane, considerate and understand the plight of people in such circumstances. Our approach has to be balanced, whether that be through an attachment of earnings or through deductions from social security or other benefits. We have to consider very carefully the circumstances that people find themselves in. My colleague Mr McGlone and I will approach the issue very carefully. We do not want to exacerbate the plight of people who find themselves having serious difficulty in managing their lives.”
“It is an issue that has troubled many for quite some time, not just in this jurisdiction. Hundreds, if not thousands, going to prison each year for fine defaulting tends to clog up the system. Therefore, there needs to be a comprehensive and effective way of dealing with fine defaulters. <BR /> <BR />I believe that, contained in this Bill, there is the hope and promise of remedying this problem by putting in place an effective and modern system for dealing with fine defaulters. The Minister has brought forward proposals that, as far as I can see, deal as comprehensively as possible with the issue of fine defaulting. He has struck a balance between creating voluntary arrangements with fine defaulters and dealing much more directly with those who refuse to cooperate with the system.”
“I rise to support, in the main, the principles of the Bill. I congratulate the Minister on bringing forward this piece of legislation dealing with a number of issues, in particular the vexed issue of fine defaulters, which has concentrated the minds of not just the Minister and the Department but the Committee for quite a number of years. It has also concentrated the minds of those who are trying to manage the Prison Service, because the unwelcome, though brief, incarceration of fine defaulters has tended to undermine the effective and efficient administration of the Prison Service, causing difficulties in terms of management and unnecessary expenditure that might usefully be saved and invested into other prison services. This is a vexed, and not a minor, issue.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. He mentioned the murder of Bobby Moffett, who was publicly executed on the Shankill Road. That public execution is not far removed from the methodology used in the murder of Kevin McGuigan.”
“I appeal to Sinn Féin to review its position. It can deny all it wants, but nobody outside its own ranks and maybe some within them believes what it is saying about that. There needs to be frankness, which would be helpful in resolving the problems that we have at the moment and in strengthening this institution and the other institutions under the Good Friday Agreement. I believe that that is Sinn Féin's political duty.”
“In addition to that, he said — it might be by way of some sort of amelioration of the situation — that the PSNI cannot yet establish whether those members of the Provisional IRA were ordered to carry out that murder by the IRA at large as an organisation. <BR /> <BR />There has to be more than simple denial by Sinn Féin on this issue. The mere existence of the IRA as a "withering husk", which was the term used by Michael McDowell, does not pose a threat, but what does pose a threat to these political institutions is the murder of a man by the Provisional IRA membership. That fact has to be addressed. It is all very well for Sinn Féin simply to deny and deny and deny, but it cannot continue to do that. I refer Members to the Taoiseach's speech in Cambridge at the weekend. He said, as Minister Flanagan also said:”
“I listened very carefully to what Mr Kelly said about the situation. In summary, he said that this is a pseudo crisis that has been manufactured by political unionism and that, by the way, the IRA left the stage in 2005. Maybe I should sit down and simply accept that, but there are a number of uncomfortable material facts that Mr Kelly did not deal with. Those material facts, as established by the Chief Constable, are that the Provisional IRA is still extant and that members of Action Against Drugs and members of the Provisional IRA were involved in the murder of Mr McGuigan. Those are facts established by the head of the PSNI. You cannot simply just ignore those facts as presented to the public by the Chief Constable.”
“Before I get into the substance of my address, I wish to say on behalf of the SDLP and, indeed, everyone here that we should think of the families of those who have been so cruelly put to death. They still have a terrible grief and sorrow to carry, and they will carry that for the rest of their lives.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer, and I share with him condemnation of the murder and the feeling of regard for both Mr Davison and Mr McGuigan's families. There was an assessment made by the Chief Constable that was made public, which was that the Provisional IRA existed and that members of Action Against Drugs and members of the Provisional IRA were involved in the carrying out of this murder. What weight and what authority do you place on that assessment?”
“Something has to be done, and I urge the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister to go back and look at this to see whether, even at this late stage, something can be decisively done in order to remedy this anomalous situation.”
“I thank the Minister for her reply, but it really does not meet the full gravity of the situation where you have a discrete number of cases outside the terms of reference. It really is not sufficient for the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister to simply say, "It's outside the terms. Therefore, we can't do anything."”
“<BR /> <BR />If one examines what the Queen has done in relation to our politics here in Ireland, North and South, particularly her visit to Dublin a few years ago, during which she expressed the firm conviction that there would be reconciliation in Ireland, North and South, and by her very presence in Dublin and her acknowledgement of those who died not just in the Great War and those who served in the British forces but during the struggle for Irish independence, that was a very great contribution to the politics of reconciliation and peace here. On behalf of the SDLP, I am, therefore, very pleased to support the matter of the day today and the congratulations that affectionately go from the House to the Queen.”
“I suppose, as a member of the SDLP and an Irish nationalist, some might think that it would be a bit uncomfortable for me to speak on this issue today. However, it is an indication of the maturation of our politics that I can, with comfort, speak and endorse the remarks that have previously been made about the Queen. It is a signal public service achievement that all of us can rightly acknowledge and respect.”
“— and that it would be shameful for us to accept otherwise.”
“The point that I make is this: the commissioner came to a conclusion. He acted independently, rejected two aspects of the complaint that Mrs Kelly made and came to a reasonable conclusion. That conclusion should be accepted, even by the party of which Mr Wilson is a member. <BR /> <BR />In any other political institution, you would find that parties rise above partisanship and accept the independent advice given by a commissioner in relation to the behaviour of a Member of the House. The facts are indisputable, and Mr Wilson did not, in any way whatsoever, contest the facts. In the ordinary sense and meaning of thug, can anyone in the House honestly say that that is an acceptable standard to attribute to any other Member? I believe that common sense dictates that that is the right standard —”
“He said, and this is the central aspect of his report:”
“I was a witness to the incident that you have referred to. I was a witness of truth and fact in relation to it, and I can tell you that I believe that Mr Kelly, on that occasion, did not act wrongly. <BR /> <BR />Let me continue. Look at this report today, and look at what the commissioner found. He said —”
“If, having considered all those matters in the round, we do not accept those reasonable conclusions, are we not undermining the very standards that we seek to establish within the House?”
“If we undermine that office, are we not, therefore, undermining the standards that we as Members should aspire to? That is the central question that springs to mind, having heard what DUP colleagues have been saying. <BR /> <BR />I am deeply, deeply unhappy with the stance that the DUP has taken collectively in relation to the issue. We have a Committee for Standards and Privileges, and the importance of that Committee is that it looks at an independent report given by the commissioner. He comes to conclusions, and the Committee assesses those conclusions. In this instance, the Committee accepted his conclusions — by a majority, I accept that — but the point has to be made. The Committee has authority within the House, and the commissioner has authority in terms of investigation and so forth.”
“I take this opportunity to express the SDLP's sympathy to Mr Douglas Bain on the death of his brother. <BR /> <BR />Having heard from DUP colleagues across the way, the question on my mind is why we have an independent Commissioner for Standards in the House. Mr Bain is the commissioner, and he is an independent office holder. He was appointed by the House in order to consider complaints in relation to standards. That is a very important role, and he has carried out that role, I believe, in a proper fashion. If we attempt to undermine his independence, impugn his motives or simply say that what he has done in his determination is nonsense, biased, or whatever, are we not undermining not just Mr Bain, but the actual office of commissioner within the House?”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Member referred to the Commissioner for Standards, an officer who serves the House. He has impugned the commissioner. In fact, he affirms that across the Chamber now. Is it in order for that charge to be made against the commissioner? Surely it is totally inappropriate, given the fact that the commissioner is an official of the House, has responsibility for standards and has made a report. Is it appropriate, is it proper, for a Member of the House to make such abusive allegations against the commissioner?”
“<BR /> <BR />A number of innovations have been put forward through the provisions of the Bill, and they are to be welcomed. It is another step forward in trying to renew our legal system. We are making progress there, but there is more progress to be made. I have no doubt that further Bills will come to the House that will assist in modernising our system of justice, and I fully support that. On behalf of my party, I express our support for the Bill as it has been amended, and I thank everybody who contributed to the work in the House and in Committee, in particular the officials from the Department of Justice and the staff of the Justice Committee.”
“<BR /> <BR />I note what the Minister has said about the "Traditional Legal Voice" in the Assembly, but I think that there is room for an independent professional voice coming through to help guide the work of the Assembly. I hope that it is wise counsel, but it is up to the Assembly to either accept or reject that view of legal matters. The work that was carried out in relation to preliminary investigations was important and was helpful in retaining something that, I believe, is of value, if not to the extent that it was before, and therefore allowing progress to be made in efficiency and speeding up the justice system and in protecting witnesses and victims in the justice system. That has been an important theme throughout the work of the Committee, and it is important to remember that.”
“The Committee, quite rightly, should take credit for the good work that it has done, and the media should note that Committees of the House do good and constructive work. <BR /> <BR />The example that the Chair raised — I know that the Minister was unhappy about it — about the Henry VIII clause was an important assertion by the Assembly of its right as an Assembly to challenge a Minister and to challenge Executive power. That is why we are here. We are here to scrutinise but also to challenge. It was important work that we did, and the outcome, which was, effectively, a compromise, was a good one and lays down a template for other Bills and other Departments. It is important that we bank that and note that.”
“<BR /> <BR />Very often in the Assembly and more frequently outside the Assembly, Committees are ignored, particularly by the media, but the role of the Justice Committee and, indeed, other Committees in the Assembly is very important. I believe that the role of the Committees has been very constructive. I pay tribute to the Chair of the Committee, Alastair Ross, and to the Deputy Chair, Raymond McCartney, for giving leadership to the Committee and dealing with issues in a professional manner and in a non-partisan manner, in the main. We cannot leave all our politics behind us when we enter the Committee Room, but there was a collective effort on this Bill in particular, and it was exhibited on the Floor of the Assembly.”
“I support the Bill and thank the Minister for bringing it through. The Bill was very worthwhile and a very valuable exercise. I know that the Minister had certain ambitions that were not fulfilled; nonetheless, his interaction with the Committee was very constructive, and credit should go to him for showing flexibility when it was necessary. The Bill and the debates on it provided opportunities for all of us on the Justice Committee to contribute and for other Members of the Assembly who are not on the Justice Committee to put forward provisions and aspects of justice that found favour with the Assembly. That was important. In particular, Mrs Kelly's contribution in relation to domestic violence was worthy. The Chair of the Committee, Mr Alastair Ross, has acknowledged that, and the Minister has also acknowledged that.”
“That is demonstrated by the support that the Bill is receiving from the environment sector and all the good organisations that are sensitive to the needs of our environment. At the same time, it is important that the Bill attracts support from the business sector. If we have those two important sectors in tandem, that bodes well for the Bill. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the Bill and its underlying principles. I look forward to the work of scrutinising the Bill and perfecting the legislation in the autumn.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Bill streamlines the regulatory system and makes it easier to understand, which is important. People sometimes see the regulations and so forth as incomprehensible. It is like finding a needle in a haystack, and they ask, "What is the purpose of this?". If we make the regulations understandable and free up resources to focus on businesses that are non-compliant — let us face it: there are businesses that do not give a hoot and are non-compliant, and it is important that they become compliant — the result will be good for the environment, good for employment, which we all want, and good for prosperity, which we dearly desire and need in Northern Ireland.”
“This is a good step forward in doing that, which I welcome. It is important that the House backs any efforts to do that. <BR /> <BR />There are balances to be struck between environmental protection and the growth of the economy, and, through the Bill, the Minister is striking the right balance. Over-regulation delivers bad outcomes; there is absolutely no doubt about that. Indeed, under-regulation can deliver bad outcomes as well. It is a balancing act, and we have to get the balance right. Regulation needs to be focused on real risks and designed so that it actually protects the environment by supporting the good guys and going after the bad guys. I do not know whether the Minister sees himself in the role of a sheriff, but maybe the Environment Committee can be the posse assisting the sheriff in carrying out his role.”
“I welcome in particular the Minister's emphasis on a code in relation to the environmental powers of entry. A code is a very important and helpful initiative. It is important that we look at that and make sure that the code is robust and helpful to all involved — in particular, businesses and organisations that are affected by the right of entry. The environmental permitting system is a wide range of activities and involves the management of waste or cause of emissions that have the potential to pollute the air, water or land, which must have a permit or licence issued by the Department or, in some cases, a district council to carry out operations. Again, these might not be the most exciting activities, but, nonetheless, they affect ordinary businesses and it is important that we get them right.”
“It may not be the most exciting piece of legislation, but it is practical and important for people. It will also amend the Environment (Northern Ireland) Order 2002 to remove the requirement to make further assessments of air quality in air-quality management areas, again reducing the burden. It will also amend the Water and Sewerage Services (Northern Ireland) Order 2006 to transfer responsibility for the regulation of drinking-water quality from public supplies from the Department for Regional Development to the Department of the Environment.”
“<BR /> <BR />The public consultation responses are important for us to take into consideration when the Committee, which works tremendously well under the chairmanship of Ms Lo, looks carefully at the detail of the legislation. It is a Committee that takes its responsibilities very seriously, and it will in due course scrutinise the legislation to see whether it can achieve the objective that the Minister has set. We will look in particular at the environmental powers of entry, which are important, as is the environmental permitting system. Those are two good steps forward. <BR /> <BR />The Bill will also amend the Clean Air (Northern Ireland) Order 1981 and provide for a new streamlined method for listing authorised fuels and exempted fireplaces for use in smoke control areas.”
“That is just a sad fact of life, but we also need to look at whatever regulation we have, particularly in the environmental field, to see where we can in reduce it. The legislation is, I think, a valiant attempt by the Minister to do that. The Bill, which hopefully will become an Act, provides a framework by which regulations can be introduced that achieve the objective of relieving that burden. It is important that we take into account the genuine, honest and legitimate complaint of business that finds environmental regulations complex, inflexible, incoherent and time-consuming. We have a duty as legislators to address the issues that businesses have quite properly highlighted to government.”
“I welcome the Bill. The Minister is to be congratulated on introducing legislation that will ease the burden on businesses throughout Northern Ireland. Of course, that chimes very much with the Executive's commitment to building a prosperous and united community, and it also chimes with their attempt in the Programme for Government to prioritise growing a sustainable economy. Of course, if businesses are hampered by over-regulation, they will not prosper. All of us in the House want to ease the burden on businesses, so the Minister is to be congratulating for introducing the Bill and for advancing the Executive's priority to grow a sustainable economy. In any society, of course, regulation is needed.”
“Is there anything more that you can say, Minister, about cooperation between North and South in this matter that could provide further confidence to the public that the free movement of sex offenders from one jurisdiction to another will be firmly restricted or, in the event of movement, properly supervised?”