Liz Kimmins
Newry and Armagh · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“I do not know how it will have affected North Antrim specifically unless the Member is referring to something in particular. We all have a responsibility in climate change and what we do to try to mitigate its impacts.”
“As the Member rightly said, removal of the zero-detriment policy is for the AERA Minister, and I have engaged with the Minister on that, as well as on the removal of the statement of regulatory principles and intent. I recognise that removing that would have detrimental impact on future development.”
“In response, we recently developed and introduced new appraisal guidance, which represents a significant and deliberate shift in approach. Under the previous arrangements, schemes were largely determined by a monetised cost-benefit ratio threshold where, typically, projects that fell below a ratio of one did not progress.”
“A number of significant issues have led to that scenario. I assume that the Member is referring to waste water capacity. I have said that NI Water has suggested that it needs between £3·5 billion to £3·6 billion for the next price control period.”
“Recruitment is a key challenge faced by all Departments. In questions to the Minister of Health, my colleague from Newry and Armagh referred to the recruitment issue that recently impacted on Daisy Hill. The challenge is not unique to DFI. I want to put a focus on ensuring that we build our internal capacity and improve staffing levels.”
“The Executive and the Assembly agree that the Executive's Budget is not adequate, which is why we are in that negotiation. When it comes to the capital budget, we have to factor in a timeline for the legal challenge that we are going through. It is unlikely that we will get a decision from the court on this side of the summer recess.”
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“I reiterate that we need to think of the people who have been affected and remember the families who are at the forefront of this. There are lots of reasons why the project has been delayed for many years. The main reasons have been objections and legal challenges. As I have said, it is just over 24 hours since the judgement was made. It is very detailed and complex, and it is important that we consider that judgement in full before making any assumptions about what is required. <BR /> <BR />As I have said, this is an Executive flagship project. The decision was brought to the Executive so that all Departments would be on the same page. It is important to say that, out of seven grounds for challenge, only three were upheld. Hundreds of pages of scientific and environmental evidence and mitigations were involved in that decision.”
“There has been cross-departmental working on the legal case because the evidence came from the impacted Departments. I have a meeting with Minister Muir this afternoon, and already, we are continuing to work together to see how we move forward to deliver the project.”
“There was cross-party support. It was not just Sinn Féin. We remain committed to that. We will look at it all in the round and see what it means going forward.”
“The Climate Change Act received cross-party support in 2022.”
“As I said, we are still considering the ruling. We need to look at all of that in the round in addition to what has been provided. The judge gave a detailed summary that lasted almost two and a half hours, and that was a lot of information for anyone who was there to take in. A huge amount of work has gone into the overall legal case and the court proceeding. We will look at all of that to see what needs to happen and where we can go next.”
“As I have said, we still need to understand exactly what the ruling will mean and what the implications are, and that is not just for my Department. All Ministers will have to consider the implications for all their projects, but it is too early to make any calls before we have a clear and thorough understanding of what the ruling means. The ruling is complex and detailed, and it is important for us to have a clear analysis of the judge's issues, what it will mean for us all going forward and how we can address those in the short term.”
“They were mothers, fathers, sons, daughters and friends, and that can never be forgotten, which is why I am determined to get the road built. For the people who have been impacted in that way, it is not a crusade; their aim is to ensure that no one else experiences the heartbreak that they have.”
“That is a very important point because every delay costs lives and not just money, and a price cannot be put on people's lives. Since coming into the role, I have consistently emphasised that any delays to the delivery of the project will just prolong the pain, and we need to ensure that there are no further delays. As many will know, the scheme first got the go-ahead in July 2007 from both the Executive and the Irish Government at a plenary meeting of the North/South Ministerial Council. Since then, it has been fraught with challenges. <BR /> <BR />I note that, yesterday, the representatives of the challengers described the campaign against the scheme as a "16-year crusade". Over the 18 years, the costs have risen, but, more important, more than 50 people have lost their life.”
“The judge indicated that the decision and the subsequent orders will all be quashed as a result of yesterday's ruling, so, once that is all in place, those lands will be returned to the landowners from whom they were vested. Officials will write to all the landowners in the coming days, setting out how the Department plans to manage the process of returning the vested lands.”
“As I said, we are working through the judgement and what it means. My officials and the legal team are considering that very thoroughly. I hope to have a briefing on it later this week. We will then be able to identify the next steps. A number of options are being considered, so, at this point in time, everything is on the table so that we identify not just the quickest route to where we need to get to but the route that will give us a successful outcome. That is what I continue to do. As we progress through that, I will continue to keep the House updated.”
“I will continue to work with all parties that are willing to work constructively and positively to ensure that we get the job done.”
“Absolutely. I thank the Member for reflecting on the unimaginable grief of those families, who continue to campaign strongly on the issue to save other families from the heartbreak that they have experienced. I cannot begin to imagine the grief that they experience every day. I am determined to continue to work as hard as I can to ensure that we deliver. It is too critical: that is important to remember. <BR /> <BR />I will work with everybody. I have just come out of a meeting with the A5/N2 cross-border group, on which five councils have come together. It was a good meeting. We talked about how we can continue to work together. I commend that group for the huge amount of work that it has done. It has stuck together and worked really hard.”
“It is clear that the SDLP has the ability to analyse in full a judgement as detailed as that in less than 24 hours. It sounds as though it has all the solutions. <BR /> <BR />I am committed to ensuring that we have a clear understanding of what the judgement means. That will take time. We have to examine it thoroughly. This is a space in which nobody in the House has been before, as a result of relatively new legislation. My priority is the families and to ensure that we save lives. I do not think that the situation is insurmountable; I think that we can find solutions. I have been engaging with officials. We will ensure that we get a clear report on what the judgement means and on what the options are in moving forward. That is what I am determined to do and will do.”
“Across the world, people are taking action on climate change and our responsibilities to deal with it. In the context of what we are talking about, it is important to remember the families that are impacted by the decision. This is not a time for point-scoring; it is a time for looking for solutions. That is what I am committed to doing, and that is what I am determined to do.”
“In the context of the history of the scheme, that is significant. <BR /> <BR />Despite the setback, I am determined to find a way forward that sees the road built to ensure that we save lives. Every day of delay risks more avoidable heartbreak. As Infrastructure Minister, I am determined to ensure that a new A5 is delivered.”
“Given the context, Members should be respectful. <BR /> <BR />I am determined to engage and we will continue to engage constructively with all stakeholders, including those who have raised concerns, to ensure that we find a way forward. It is deeply regrettable that we have received the decision, as we continue to see so many lives lost on the road, deaths that cause so much pain to families and tear our communities apart. It is, undoubtedly, the most dangerous road in Ireland. <BR /> <BR />My priority remains the safety and well-being of all road users. I am determined that we will deliver the A5. Building the road will save lives, create jobs and significantly reduce journey times between the north-west and Dublin. The judge said:”
“and the climate action plan (CAP), the outworkings of which every Department will have to deal with. <BR /> <BR />Sorry, Mr Speaker, this is so disrespectful.”
“I will start by repeating my extreme disappointment in the decision that we received yesterday. It was a hugely disappointing day not just for me but, in the first instance, all the families and the Enough is Enough campaign, who have been extremely diligent and steadfast in their commitment to ensuring that the road is built. My first thoughts are with all those who have tragically lost loved ones on the road and those who are living with injuries as a result of collisions along the road. <BR /> <BR />It was a very detailed judgement, so it is important that we take time to carefully consider it in full, including any implications for the scheme and the Department's next steps. As I said, it is extremely detailed, and it was the first legal test for the Climate Change Act”
“It is important that we all look at our budgets and see where we can make efficiencies. That is what has come out of it. <BR /> <BR />The Member and his party would never have been happy, regardless of what the outcome was. The reality is that the budget that we have been allocated is not enough to do what is needed. However, the budget that we have must be spent appropriately so that we can ensure that all the people whom we represent get the best value for their money.”
“I am not sure where that question is directed. I suppose that I will just say this: that is the point of the report — to ensure that money in the budget is being spent appropriately. I do not know how many more times I need to say that. We can make all the accusations of distractions. Are Members suggesting that I just let that fly and that, if an ALB indicates that it will overspend its budget, I should ignore that? Absolutely not. I take that very seriously. That is why I instructed PwC to do the report. <BR /> <BR />If the findings had come the other way and there was nothing to see, that would also have been positive, because it would have reinforced the position that NI Water has been making. This is showing areas of improvement, but it is not an indictment of NI Water.”
“That is the point of the report: to ensure that we have a grip on what is happening and how money is spent. When the report is published, I am sure, the Member will go through it in great detail to see the level of detail that PwC has gone into as part of that work. It will be food for thought for everyone about how important it is to manage money very tightly, given the budgetary constraints that we all face. I can give the House an absolute assurance that it can have confidence in my Department and me. That was the whole purpose of the exercise. A £1·4 million overspend may not seem much to many people, but I take it very seriously.”
“That figure is commercially sensitive, particularly given the time frame of the investigation, so it is not a number that I can disclose. I am sure that the Member will appreciate that.”
“Apologies, Mr Speaker. I do not know how many times I have said in here what the Department is doing. We have the three-pronged approach. We have done the investigation to ensure that the budget is being spent appropriately. We have found areas where improvements can be made, and we are working towards that. If the Member's colleagues in Westminster can work to get us more money in the Executive Budget, that would also be very welcome. However, until such time as the budget becomes available, unfortunately, I have to do what I can with the existing budget.”
“I have presented what my approach is. I have worked —.”
“We hear all these proposals, but I have yet to hear the Opposition's alternative.”
“Absolutely, but I am exploring all those options.”
“Nothing surprises me any more in the Chamber. I do not know how many times I have to outline what my approach has been. You obviously do not think that it is working. It is important to identify that this is a resource budget, not capital, so that is what the investigation was looking at; that is where the overspend was. If the Member knows where there is money hiding, tell me. I will find it.”
“That is the point of the report. Whilst I do not think that there are huge gaps, there are areas for improvement, and the Member has outlined one of those, in particular, on negotiating contracts and ensuring that it is getting the best price for the work that is required. NI Water can take that forward in working towards ensuring that we are not in this position again. The whole point of the report was to ensure that we can stand over the fact that the budget that is allocated is being spent properly. Those are not insurmountable asks: they are things that can be achieved, and I will work with NI Water going forward to ensure that that is done.”
“I am incredulous that the Member has said that I will not provide the capital funding required. I am sure that his colleague the Minister, the Health Department and the trusts could say a similar thing about what money can be provided for capital. We are all working with very challenging budgets. NI Water got half a billion pounds last year. That is a huge amount of money, and I recognise that it has still fallen significantly short of what is needed. However, that work will take time. We have to work together and continue to move forward. If we could get a bigger Executive Budget and I could get a bigger allocation out of that, we could achieve so much more. I continue to work to ensure that the budget that we have is spent properly and that we make the progress that is needed.”
“It is absolutely not a distraction. It shows that I am very committed to ensuring that I do everything that is within my power to get the money that is needed and to get the best value for public money.”
“I will continue to work with NI Water, both the board and the senior leadership team, to find that way forward and ensure that we are not in this position again. If that does not change, I will have to consider the next steps. We are in a good position now, and people clearly know the areas where work is required. I am happy to continue that work.”
“When I first gave a statement to the Assembly to make Members aware that I was taking those steps, I made it clear that they were a consequence of that instruction to overspend. Members will be aware that, if the Executive were to overspend their Budget, there would be serious consequences, which are outlined by the British Government. We all have a responsibility to live within our budgets, and we all strive to do so. I do not want to underestimate the challenges. I hope that the report will be constructive and not overly critical, but there is definitely room for improvement, and this is something that we can overcome. <BR /> <BR />With regard to consequences and reprimand, the first step that we took to deal with that instruction to overspend was to have an investigation. We are where we are now. We have a pathway forward.”
“It is imperative that the board continue to drive forward that required behavioural change in order to ensure that affordability is factored into all decisions, just as the Department has to do.”
“There were opportunities for things to be done to control costs, and we need to look at that and base financial decisions on a budget that actually exists as opposed to a larger amount that, a body thinks, it should have. <BR /> <BR />Alongside that, it is important to say that NI Water has appointed an independent electrical engineer to provide a technical opinion of the quality of suppliers' work. That will be completed in July. Given those two serious issues, I am determined that the learning from this investigation and anything that comes out of the further work on the whistle-blowing case can only serve NI Water in bringing forward improvements to its processes and ensuring that it takes every opportunity that it can to live within its budget.”
“As that investigation is ongoing, it is important to let it take its course. I want to make sure that we do not conflate the two. However, both are extremely important, and we will look at the outcome of that investigation once it has been finalised. It is important to say that this report was not related to the whistle-blowing investigation. It would be unfair to suggest that they are related when they are not. The whistle-blowing report looks into allegations of fraud in the contract management processes and the quality of work undertaken by suppliers, which obviously gives rise to concerns. This report, however, shows clearly that the board's actions led to a potential breach of MPMNI.”
“It also means that people will have to make choices about where and how they spend their money. Just last week, the Consumer Council reported that food costs account for almost a quarter of households' basic spending. <BR /> <BR />For the avoidance of doubt, I will not be introducing water charges that will add a financial burden on households. I am more than willing to look at alternatives that have real benefits, but I have yet to see them. The Fiscal Council's report has clearly stated that the only alternative to the existing model will lead to the introduction of domestic water charges. I keep saying this: if there are other alternatives that we have missed, I am happy to look at them.”
“Again, I ask the Member to tell me whether I have missed something, or whether there is another solution that does not include domestic water charges. If there is, I am willing to hear about it, because I have not been presented with any alternative other than the options that lead to water charges. <BR /> <BR />It is important to go back to the point on water charges because of what that would mean for household budgets. At Question Time yesterday, I mentioned that a figure of around £590 per household was quoted in the report. That may seem insignificant to many in the Chamber, but it is very significant for many households. If you add that on to the average household rate of £1,180 per annum, you are talking about an average annual bill of approximately £1,800. That is quite a lot of money for households that are already struggling.”
“The Member's interpretation of the Fiscal Council's report varies slightly from mine. The report is welcome because it confirms what I and my predecessor have consistently said about alternative funding models for NI Water. The Fiscal Council stated very clearly that any alternative will lead to the introduction of water charges for households here. The report also stated that not only would it lead to water charges, but that those charges are not the best option, because, as we have seen in Britain, they do necessarily achieve what you are trying to achieve. <BR /> <BR />It is worth noting that it has been widely acknowledged that many of the alternative models are failing. Our existing funding model works, but it needs significant additional investment.”
“No. We are addressing the matter now because NI Water's board had directed NI Water to overspend. As I said, that would have resulted in a breach of MPMNI. That is why I instructed PwC to carry out the investigation. In the past, work was done to ensure that NI Water continued to live within its budget. The £80 million variance was between the amount that NI Water had set out that it needed to do the work that it did and the figure at the end of the year. That figure came down substantially by year-end in each of those three years, however, but, overall, the variance totalled £80 million. The opening budget that NI Water set out has significantly reduced in-year to meet the budget that it was allocated. This year, however, we saw that, had the Department not stepped in, there was potential for NI Water to overspend.”
“A robust governance framework is in place, and officials work closely with NI Water's board and senior leadership. It is clear, however, that we have more work to do, and that is what we will be doing.”
“The chief executive of NI Water is required to give the Department a mid-year and end-of-year assurance statement to provide a summary of progress made against the company's annual operating plan and to highlight risks, with a particular focus on financial management. <BR /> <BR />Ultimately, though, it is the chief executive's responsibility to ensure that services are designed and delivered within the approved budget allocation. It is the appointed board's role to act as the eyes and ears of the Minister and the Department to ensure that spending plans are not implemented that are at odds with 'Managing Public Money NI' and public expenditure rules.”
“The Department ensures that its investment in NI Water is protected through a robust governance process that is underpinned by a partnership agreement that sets out all the partnership arrangements and the overall governance framework. Officials monitor NI Water's expenditure through a monthly profiling process that indicates whether its spending forecast is in line with its budget allocation. In fact, it was that oversight process that first identified NI Water's inability to live within the approved resource budget and that escalated the risk for further action to be taken.”
“That is the expectation placed on me and on ALBs. It is challenging, and I do not underestimate the challenge for one second, but, when that expectation is not met, it is important that there be consequences. That is not where any of us wants to be, which is why I want to work with NI Water to ensure that we are not in the same position again and that we work within a realistic operating plan. If and when more money becomes available, I have said that that is what I intend to do. I continually bid for in-year funding in the monitoring rounds to ensure that we can get additional investment so that NI Water can do more with its opening budget. In the next financial year, when we will hopefully have a multi-year budget, we will be in an even better position.”
“The report has clearly identified that, over the past three years, NI Water indicated a much greater figure in all opening budgets than what was needed. That figure then went down substantially. Over the past three years, the total variance between its opening budget ask and its closing budget, after it reduced it in-year, was £80 million. I have said clearly that there are a number of variables that have to be taken into account. Those variables can depend on the weather and on energy costs, but there are also controllable costs, and PwC identified how those could be managed better. <BR /> <BR />I have responsibility for doing lots of things. I could say, "I do not have the budget to do that, but I will do it anyway", but that would not be good management of my budget. We all have to live and work within our budget.”
“PwC indicated how the savings could be quantified. As I said in my statement, even a 5% saving on procurement would have equated to the overspend of £1·4 million. Although that sounds like a small amount, if that saving had been made, we would have seen a different outcome and would probably not be in the position that we are in today. We can definitely look at how we can use money better to ensure that the situation does not arise again. <BR /> <BR />You asked about working with other public bodies. You asked two questions, so I hope that I have got this right. I work with everybody to ensure that we move forward and get the best outcome for all our public services. That is what I have told NI Water and what I am keen to do across the board. I intend to do that work.”
“I was quick to move to ensure that that did not happen, but, given that the board had clearly indicated that it intended to instruct NI Water to overspend, there were consequences. That is why we are where we are, but the situation gives us a good platform from which, through working closely together, we can ensure that that does not happen again.”
“The report sets out clearly that any direction by the board of NI Water, or, indeed, of any ALB, to overspend without the prior agreement of the Department is technically a breach of 'Managing Public Money NI'. Had I not taken the decision to allocate additional money and bail out NI Water — I have to say that I did so just days before the end of the financial year and that we could have used that money elsewhere, whether mending potholes or something else that we could have done in the public service — the board would, indeed, have incurred a breach of MPMNI.”
“We are now in a new financial year and working on the budget that we have at the minute, including the indicative budget that NI Water has been provided with. <BR /> <BR />I do not think that the investigation has been a waste of time. It has been a worthwhile piece of work that all ALBs and public bodies could look to to find out how they could do things differently. If we can all make small savings, those savings can accumulate and go a long way. As elected representatives, that is the duty on all of us: to ensure that we get the best value from the public money that we manage.”
“The Member will not be surprised that I do not agree that the review is a whitewash. It is an important piece of work that has clearly identified areas for improvement. I also think that it has helped to reinforce the challenging budgetary position that is faced not just by NI Water but by all our ALBs and Departments. It points back to the issue that the overall Executive Budget still does not meet the needs of our public services. <BR /> <BR />We all have to look at where we can make efficiencies, and the investigation has clearly identified those areas of work. As I said, I spoke to you, as Chair, and the Deputy Chair this morning ahead of making the statement. I also spoke to the chair of the board of NI Water. I am keen to continue the work to ensure that we are able to address these issues.”
“<BR /> <BR />It is OK to wax lyrical about all the things that I am not doing, but I have not heard what the solutions are to those issues. I know what the solution is: more money, but where do we get it from? Are the Member and his party suggesting that we introduce water charges? That is the only thing that, as far as I can see, we have not considered, and I do not intend to do that. I would be happy to hear those suggestions.”