Nick Mathison
Strangford · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“That second part is important. In the scrutiny of the Minister's Bill on school uniforms, we got a little tied up over how we could build in provisions on PE, but, when we got to work on this Bill, we found that there is a simple formulation that will ensure that participation in sport and PE, which, we should remember, is a statutory par…”
“<BR /> <BR />On the basis of that feedback and the other evidence that we received, two draft approaches to developing the Bill were considered. The first was to create a separate, stand-alone Bill with a stand-alone right for pupils to be afforded the choice to wear trousers and to set that out in law.”
“Many schools do that really well, but others, regrettably, do not. To me, only legislation will guarantee the behaviour change that we need. It is not good enough for a Minister to say to young people, "But I give you permission to go and campaign. You run the campaign. Look at Rhea and Astrid: didn't they do so well?".”
“I will name a few: the school uniform must be affordable, so schools have no autonomy on that; and schools must consult with parents when they are changing their policy, so they have no autonomy on that. I could go through every one of the guidelines.”
“depending on the activity. That was to ensure that the need for appropriate clothing for sporting activities was reflected. <BR /> <BR />Ultimately, it is a permissive Bill. It is simply focused on creating a universal right to have the choice to wear trousers and enshrining that in the guidance.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I will not speak for long, and I do not plan to rehearse everything that has been said. However, I begin by doing something that I overlooked when I spoke at the beginning: thanking the Deputy Chair of the Committee who first proposed the Bill.”
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“I thank the Minister for his intervention. I risked it potentially being longer than my speech. I will try to pick up on the issues that he raised. I am happy to record that the Department has made interventions in this space. I am not trying to suggest that it has not, and I do not think that my comments suggested that. The bursary scheme is welcome, but there has been a historical issue and trend of the workforce in Irish-medium education not growing at the rate that is needed to support the demand across the board for access to Irish-medium education. As the Bill sponsor's remarks reflected, it is not just about teachers but about support staff, classroom assistants, speech and language therapists and ed psychs. It is the whole picture. That is why the Bill, to my mind, is welcome.”
“The postgraduate certificate in education (PGCE) bursary scheme for Irish-medium students, which will start in September, is welcome, but it feels as though interventions have been needed for many years and have, in this case, perhaps come too late. For me, the statutory duty sits well with the Bill. It seems to me that the Bill is a fair outworking of that duty.”
“The sector has grown substantially over the past number of years, but, because of the specific challenges that the Bill sponsor has set out, the workforce has not grown at the pace required to facilitate the capacity and scope that exists for further growth. As we reflect on that, I want to reference the Department's existing statutory duty to encourage and facilitate the development of Irish-medium education. As far as I am concerned, the Bill is a clear outworking of what that duty should already require the Department to do. If the development of Irish-medium education is hampered by workforce challenges, as it demonstrably is, the Department should already be stepping in to address that. <BR /> <BR />I would not want to say that no action is being taken in this space.”
“<BR /> <BR />Beyond that, I have little to add to my remarks as Committee Chair, other than to say that we have heard significant evidence on the issue from the Department and from relevant stakeholders. It seems to me that the Bill is in keeping with the challenges that the Committee has learned about. It will be for the membership of the Committee, if the Bill passes Second Stage today, to assess whether it requires amendment and what scrutiny we need to apply in terms of hearing evidence from further stakeholders. <BR /> <BR />I will now speak briefly in my capacity as an Alliance MLA. I begin by welcoming the Bill, which is a straightforward and practical intervention to address an issue that, we are all aware, has been a long-standing challenge for the Irish-medium sector.”
“Certainly, however, it points to an inadequate workforce available to support those needs, including a shortage of peripatetic teachers, educational psychologists who are competent in the Irish language, classroom assistants who are competent in the Irish language and speech and language therapists who are competent in the Irish language. Perhaps, if the Bill passes Second Stage today, we can assess at Committee Stage whether the Bill could benefit from any SEN-specific provisions to ensure that that is reflected in the workforce plan, given that it has been highlighted clearly to the Committee as a specific issue. It is clear that there is a SEN layer to the workforce challenge, and it will be important to make that point at that stage.”
“That, too, reflected clearly the concerns around the workforce as a key challenge. The report recommended a targeted recruitment programme to address workforce gaps. Again, it seems to me that the Bill is in keeping with that recommendation. <BR /> <BR />Through its SEN inquiry and other evidence sessions, the Committee for Education has heard evidence in relation to some of the SEN-specific aspects of the workforce challenges facing Irish-medium education. Again, the Bill sponsor set those out clearly in his opening remarks. The research points to potentially higher levels of special educational need in Irish-medium education, although the differences are maybe not terribly significant.”
“<BR /> <BR />The research was clear that any workforce plan that is developed must address the current shortfalls in the Irish-medium education workforce and the likely and assessed future needs of the sector. The Bill expands and enhances that recommendation in more detail in what the plan must include, but, to my mind, it is very much in keeping with the recommendations from that particular research. <BR /> <BR />The Committee also heard about QUB's 'Fair? Shared? Supported?' research, which engaged directly with teachers and practitioners who are working in Irish-medium settings.”
“<BR /> <BR />Other Members will, no doubt, reference much of the evidence that is available to us in the space, but the CnaG research of 2023 on workforce and Irish-medium education is probably the most relevant. Its findings were clear that, among other recommendations, the Department needed to deliver a workforce plan for Irish-medium education. The Committee has not heard any evidence that that has been substantially developed, although our understanding is that a strategy is under way, which could come to us in 2027. However, on the specific issue of a workforce plan, there does not seem to be anything on the immediate, short-term agenda.”
“There have been some disagreements around the extent to which the Department's actions in the space have addressed those challenges effectively, but there is broad agreement on the nature of the challenges that are affecting Irish-medium education. <BR /> <BR />The Bill is clear and is focused on looking at the specific issue of workforce, and the Committee has heard evidence relating to that on a number of occasions. Research over a number of years has highlighted the clear need for the Department to intervene in that space. Workforce is one of the challenges. There are also accommodation challenges, curriculum and resource development challenges and gaps in continuing professional development (CPD), but, again, the Bill sponsor has set all those out.”
“I will begin my remarks as Chair of the Education Committee, and then I will make some brief remarks in my capacity as an Alliance MLA. I do not plan to speak for long, as the Bill sponsor and Deputy Chair of the Committee has set out that the Bill is a short, two-clause Bill, and its policy intent and effect are clear and, to my mind, do not require a huge amount of commentary. <BR /> <BR />Since the institutions were restored, the Education Committee has heard evidence on multiple occasions from Department of Education officials and from CnaG on issues that are impacting on Irish-medium education. The themes that came through all those evidence sessions were clear.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I do not disagree with anything that you have said. How could anyone possibly argue against wanting to ensure that children who are hungry are fed? Do you also agree that we need to be sure that the money to address the issue goes to the children who are most at risk of experiencing that hunger, and that we need to understand the evidence and data to make sure that we are properly targeting any intervention?”
“However, there are those few points on which we would like to see greater clarity, particularly the evidence base that this intervention will make the greatest impact, given the significant funding that is being committed to it. Again, those are issues that we can explore at Committee Stage. I look forward to engaging in that process over the next number of weeks. I thank the Bill sponsor for bringing it forward.”
“Will appropriate exemptions be applied to means-tested benefits or the likes of carer's allowance that have very tight and narrow income thresholds? Does it require Westminster to deliver any of that, or can consequential amendments arise for the Department for Communities to take forward? I am happy for the Bill sponsor to speak to those assurances in his winding-up speech. We would not want to leave anybody worse off on the back of receiving any of the payments. <BR /> <BR />Alliance is happy to support the proposal at Second Stage. We recognise and are clear that there is a need to invest in anti-poverty measures to support the most vulnerable learners in education. We remain concerned that, across Departments, not enough resource is being directed into that area.”
“I understand that. For me, it is about wanting to put on record at this stage that it is important that we consider all of that in the round. I am clear that I am happy to support the intentions and policy intent behind the Bill. It is about ensuring that we have the right evidence base and that there are not other, more effective interventions that may well, potentially, deliver better outcomes. <BR /> <BR />I will go back to my colleague Kellie Armstrong's point about wider issues in the benefits system, which is really the only other issue that I want to put on the record today. I want to note a slight concern, without saying that it will inevitably be an outworking of the Bill, that, if we make the payments, we must ensure that they will not impact negatively on anybody's current and ongoing benefit entitlement.”
“The Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency (NISRA) has also provided data. It suggests that fewer than one in three children in poverty are in receipt of free school meals, that the majority of children currently in receipt of free school meals were not experiencing poverty and that it was those on the edge of entitlement who may be more at risk of experiencing poverty. Some of those statistics give me a little cause for concern that, by tying it so tightly to free school meals, we could miss out some of the children who need the intervention most.”
“That is a stark statistic. You could have 41% of families in poverty not benefiting from the intervention. Again, that raises for me the question of ensuring that, if we are going to commit to the spend, it is the most effective mechanism that we can deliver.”
“The commissioner asked whether that is the most effective way of doing it, and the Bill very much ties interventions to that. The paper highlights the fact that entitlement to free school meals is often a poor indicator of a child being in poverty, saying:”
“<BR /> <BR />I want to reference the research done by the Commissioner for Children and Young People, because it speaks to some of the questions about what is the most effective intervention. Research by the commissioner has raised some:”
“We can work through that at Committee Stage. I would like to know what other options have been considered, because, to me, a whole range of other things could be looked at. We have talked before at the Education Committee, and have debated it in motions, about auto-enrolment for free school meals, and we have talked about widening access to free school meals. We have talked about moving to a universal approach and about how to maximise uptake of free school meals. There is a whole range of different things, so it is important that we have a clear sense of what options have been considered during the process that led to the Bill being presented to the Assembly.”
“I will not give way. <BR /> <BR />I will raise that issue in my remarks later, and I imagine that the Bill sponsor will address that. <BR /> <BR />A significant sum of money is being proposed. It has been suggested that it will cost £20 million a year. The Minister perhaps disputes those figures. I am clear that there are obvious benefits in what is being proposed, and I think that all of us want to see children being able to receive a nutritious diet outside term time. I do not think that any of us will object to that. My party and I will support the Bill's progress through Second Stage today, but, given the current budgetary position, we have to be clear that we are looking at a recurring financial commitment. Have all the options been explored to ensure that the proposed spend is the most effective way to do it?”
“I thank the Member for that intervention.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. The best intervention is the Departments that have responsibilities in this area working together and using the provisions of the Children's Services Co-operation Act to come forward with genuinely jointly planned and jointly commissioned services that can impact on those who most need them. I see no evidence of that happening, and we hear that at the Education Committee all the time.”
“I thank the Member for responding. I understand that. We are in a limited and shortened mandate, and I understand that we cannot do everything. I would be interested to see whether there is a way to knit some of this together to see how Departments can engage.”
“I hope that this debate will be an impetus for us to hear from both Ministers about what they are doing in this space, because, up to now, I have not seen any evidence of that. <BR /> <BR />From engaging with the Bill sponsor, I understand that the legislation will amend an Education Order, and, despite the fact that this is a cross-departmental issue, it will sit firmly within the remit of the Department of Education. As the legislation progresses, or even today, the Bill sponsor could provide clarity, because I am keen to understand why the decision was taken to just go through the lens of the Department of Education and why multi-departmental solutions were not considered. The issue clearly crosses Education, Communities and Health, and it crosses over the work and responsibilities of those three Departments.”
“Again, I do not think that we should look continually to the community and voluntary sector to provide the answers to everything. That is important to note, because it is a cross-Executive issue. In his remarks, the Minister is likely to take issue with the fact that this is being funnelled through his Department and not other Departments. In response to an Assembly question on the matter, the Education Minister advised that he had met with the Communities Minister to discuss the issue of child food poverty, including how it can impact on families during and outside school term time, but I am not clear on the outcome from that meeting. I do not see holiday hunger appearing in the strategy or being given any ongoing significant focus from the Education or Communities Ministers.”
“Often, we end up in a scenario where the community and voluntary sector steps in and plays a large role in closing the gaps where provision cannot meet need. It is important to pay tribute to the organisations that go above and beyond, every day, to support the families, children and young people who are in dire need, and our education staff — teachers, school leaders and classroom assistants — who I know, from stories that I hear, often support families and children out of their own pockets, or engage them with support services in their local communities. We should not be in a scenario where school staff are having to step in in that way, but that is the level of need. <BR /> <BR />We also have the Executive's anti-poverty strategy.”
“When we are in a budgetary crisis, we need to be clear that we do not end up penalising those who are least able to bear its costs. <BR /> <BR />As I mentioned earlier, tackling child poverty is a cross-departmental issue. Today, obviously, we are looking at a Bill that is exclusively going through the Department of Education and its statutory roles and functions. We can look at it as a cross-Executive issue, not just an issue for Education. The Northern Ireland Audit Office has estimated that tackling child poverty will cost between £850 million and £1 billion per year. Despite the investments that we have put in, we know that we are not always producing the best outcomes for those in need.”
“That is how the Audit Office is characterising how we measure the Department's current interventions to tackle educational disadvantage. If we are looking seriously at new spend, we need to be clear about how the impact will be measured on the other side of that. We all know about the financial crisis that our education system is facing, and the Minister has highlighted it. "Crisis" is an appropriate word to use. The current budgetary position in Education is dire, and, regrettably, we often see that the people who are impacted most are the families who are least able to afford it. The recent increase in the cost of school meals is an example of where, very often, the costs land at the doors of those who are least able to bear them.”
“Thank you, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. I felt that the Bill sponsor should be given the opportunity to speak to those points. I cannot guarantee that I will give way for as long for any other interventions. <BR /> <BR />I have covered a fair bit on evidence and on being sure that we have evidence that the output from the Bill will have an impact that we can measure and that we will be able to understand what success looks like. That will be looked at in more detail at Committee Stage. <BR /> <BR />The NI Audit Office report further highlighted fragmented and inconsistent approaches to evaluation across the programmes, limiting the Department's ability to understand what works and where to channel future investment.”
“I agree that evidence is important, but I would not necessarily have characterised it in the way the Minister did.”
“I will finish my point, and then I will give way to the Bill sponsor. <BR /> <BR />I would not frame the other issue in the way that the Minister did, because we need to be careful that we do not get into the space of characterising parents as being irresponsible and saying that they will not spend the money on what it is intended to be spent on. However, the Bill needs to be clear about the measure of success. Will it simply be about how many payments are made? Will it be about ensuring that they are targeted at the right people? Will it be about uptake and how many parents who are in receipt of free school meals access the payment? Will there be some other measure of success, such as improved educational outcomes or improved health outcomes? It is not clear how we will measure the success of the Bill should it become law.”
“As it was the Minister of Education, I felt that I should give him the opportunity to have a say on the points that I raised. <BR /> <BR />I agree that there is a need to understand, at the outset, the evidence base for the nature of the problem and those who are most impact by it to ensure that we can target an intervention appropriately. I do not necessarily agree that we are in the space of saying, "Well, if you do this, you cut that". Ministers should be able to set priorities, and I am sure that there is a range of views around the Chamber about the most effective use of the Education budget.”
“Other Members have referenced educational disadvantage, and, clearly, poverty and food poverty feed into the groups of children and young people who are most at risk of experiencing educational disadvantage. Concerningly, the report found that, despite incurring a combined annual spend of over £100 million, the Department of Education cannot currently demonstrate that major programmes aimed at reducing educational disadvantage, including the SEN transformation programme, are successful or deliver value for money. That should give us all pause for thought, and I draw attention to it because it highlights just how important it is that, if we are going to intervene and spend a large sum of public money, we need to be clear that it will make best use of that public money and be the most effective way that any intervention can be made.”
“The scrutiny of the Bill will be really important to make sure that the lack of a clear evidence base does not mean that we end up making an intervention that feels like the right thing to do, but, potentially, does not target those who need the support the most. However, that is a discussion for the scrutiny stages, when the evidence base can be looked at and we can see where Education Committee lands on the most effective intervention. However, the fact that we are approaching the Bill without a clear evidence base will make that work challenging, and we need to be clear about that. <BR /> <BR />Over the Easter break, the Comptroller and Auditor General (C&AG) published her evaluation of the programmes that address educational disadvantage.”
“The picture is potentially more complex. It varies from household to household, and it may vary based on the number of children in the household.”
“It is not clear to me whether we have an evidence base that tells us that the children most affected by food poverty are those in receipt of free school meals. Perhaps those on the fringes of entitlement to free school meals who do not receive any support from any source in government are struggling even more than those who may be in receipt of free school meals. I do not know. I do not have the evidence, so I cannot speak to that.”
“I do not think that the nettle was grasped even to begin to undertake any serious research or analysis of the prevalence and impact of holiday hunger in Northern Ireland, particularly of the impact that the payments that were made under the scheme had. The review of free school meals and the uniform grant eligibility criteria would have been a really good opportunity last year to explore some of that further in order to get an evidence base for the scale and scope of the problem to determine the most effective interventions. <BR /> <BR />We are therefore at risk in this scenario where there is a lack of clear evidence on which children and families are most impacted on by food poverty, or, to use the language, "holiday hunger", and on what the most effective interventions may be.”
“It appears that the current draft anti-poverty strategy may also fall short of delivering the transformative change that is needed to tackle poverty and its root causes across Northern Ireland. We are therefore potentially still treating symptoms rather than causes. <BR /> <BR />We know — other Members have referred to this — that school holiday food grants were previously made available to families who were eligible for free school meals from July 2020 until March 2023, so what is proposed today as an intervention is not new. An opportunity was missed following the decision that civil servants then took, when there was no sitting Assembly, to cease funding for the programme.”
“On that basis, it is important always to remember that tackling child poverty requires a cross-departmental approach. A single intervention in the education space will not cut it, and we need to be honest about that. There is a need across Departments for the issue to be taken seriously. <BR /> <BR />The PAC's 'Report on Child Poverty in Northern Ireland' gives a damning account of the child poverty strategy that ran from 2016 to 2022. It states:”
“It is regrettable that the Bill before us today may be the only clear and direct anti-poverty legislation to come before the Assembly in this mandate. I am happy to be corrected if there is something else coming forward from perhaps the Department for Communities of which I am not aware, but my understanding is that this Bill could be it. <BR /> <BR />My party colleagues and I have already met the Bill sponsor to discuss the legislation. As a party, we recognise the need to ensure that we are providing support for those children most at risk of experiencing poverty, particularly food poverty. We of course want to ensure that any legislation on the issue that we pass reaches as many children in need as possible and does so in the most effective way.”
“On child poverty, we know that approximately 109,000 children live in relative poverty and 86,000 in absolute poverty. Again, it is easy to trot out such statistics in such a debate, and it can feel trite to do so, but it is important that we take the time to pause, listen and reflect on the real lives, the real children and the real families behind them. I think that we are all agreed that the issues are serious and therefore need a serious response. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the fact that all parties in the Chamber agree that tackling child poverty should be a priority. Regrettably, however, so far in this mandate, we have not seen a huge amount of proactive action taken, and we have to be clear about that.”
“Sadly, however, that is where we are, and so I put on record my thanks to the Bill sponsor for introducing the Bill and for taking a proactive approach to try to do something about the issues that so many families face in relation to poverty and the ever-rising cost of living, of which we are all so well aware. <BR /> <BR />A lot of statistics have been quoted today, but I will add a few more. In 2024, research by the Trussell Trust, which is a key stakeholder, showed that, at that stage, 32% of children in Northern Ireland were growing up in food-insecure households. That is not a figure about which any of us should be casual, because it is a really serious matter. Among those households, 14% had three or more children, compared with 6% of households overall in Northern Ireland.”
“From the Committee's perspective, therefore, I will leave it at saying that I am sure that, if the Bill passes its Second Stage today, the Committee will be ready to do the necessary scrutiny work. There is, no doubt, a wide range of stakeholders who will be very interested in this policy area and who will want to engage with the Committee on these issues. <BR /> <BR />Every Member who has spoken in the debate so far has, I think, outlined the fact that we come to a debate on an issue such as this or on a Bill such as this with a degree of regret. None of us wants to be discussing child poverty and the huge challenges that families face, simply because we should not, in this day and age, be dealing with such levels of poverty in our society.”
“Thank you, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker: no apology required. <BR /> <BR />I will make some very brief opening remarks as Chair of the Committee for Education. The Committee has not considered issues around holiday hunger in particular detail. The subject has come up at various junctures during deliberations on other matters, and Committee members from across the parties are very much of a mind that anything that can be done to tackle poverty through our schools and education system should be a priority. The Committee has heard about the UNISON campaign for widening access to free school meals and moving towards a universal model. We received an informal briefing on that, but, beyond that, we have not had detailed formal briefings.”
“I hope that the Minister can find a way — if required, in partnership with colleagues from across the Executive, particularly the Health Minister — to commit to ongoing support for the vital TinyStart programme.”
“I put on record that the temporary extension is welcome, but I urge the Minister to do all that he can to secure the relatively small budget that is needed for the remainder of this financial year to give the charity certainty and, most importantly, to ensure that the vital early intervention work can continue for the group of children who really need the support. <BR /> <BR />It is critical that we do not pay lip service to early intervention, and we should prioritise it when it is being delivered effectively. Small sums of money spent early can undoubtedly save a much higher spend when the children require more intensive intervention down the line.”
“By mid-March, in response to questions that I had submitted, the Minister was still advising that he could make no commitment to even temporarily fund the project while budgets were being finalised. In an update, we have been told that temporary funding to the end of June had been agreed at the very last minute. Regrettably, that news came at a late stage, at the start of the Easter holidays as staff were going off on leave, many of whom had already been put on notice and had no certainty about the continuation of their roles. <BR /> <BR />Earlier communication and decision-making about the funding for the project could have given the charity a little bit more certainty and time to plan.”
“The programme includes home-based interventions, with a focus on upskilling parents as the child's first educators in the home. The figures indicate that around 50% of extremely premature babies are likely to have a disability and that 40% of premature babies are likely to have a developmental delay of some kind. That support at the early stages is therefore vital to give them the very best chance of thriving and succeeding in education. <BR /> <BR />We talk much in this place about the need for early intervention, and this programme is surely a prime example of where we have done that very well and consistently over a number of years. It was therefore incredibly concerning to learn that there was no guarantee of the funding being continued in the 2026-27 financial year.”
“Thank you, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. That is duly noted. <BR /> <BR />Members across the House will be aware of the work of the charity TinyLife, which supports children who are born prematurely and their families across Northern Ireland. Since 2022, as an outworking of the 'A Fair Start' report, the Department of Education has funded the TinyStart programme, which has provided vital interventions to support that cohort of children across Northern Ireland. The 'A Fair Start' report clearly highlighted the fact that babies born prematurely are at increased risk of experiencing educational disadvantage and need bespoke support to ensure that they can fulfil their potential. The programme has been funded to ensure that those supports are provided to families from birth through to school age.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. Given that there seems to be acceptance across the board that the summer schemes are vital and need to be delivered, and that the EA, rightly, highlighted safety concerns, did something go wrong with the engagement with Health that meant that we could not get it over the line?”