Nuala McAllister
North Belfast · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“I have submitted quite a number of questions for written answer on autism services, and the answers, sometimes on the same day from the Department, contradict themselves. The Minister often refers to the emotional health and well-being framework as the idea that will frame all of the uniform services.”
“Absolutely. Everyone is taking my speech; I was going to say that. Of course, it is complex and subjective to the individual person. If we are truly talking about keeping an individual safe and other prisoners safe, we would not do what the amendment proposes; we would carry on in the way that the system already operates, using a risk-bas…”
“I thank the Member for his question. The Assembly Commission is progressing a programme of remedial works to address defects identified in the roof of Parliament Buildings and to protect the long-term integrity of this grade A listed building. The works have been structured in two phases.”
“More often than not, we have conversations in the Chamber or in public about trans women, but that would place a trans man who has been convicted of a violent crime against a woman in a prison with women. It does not make sense, and it is not coming from the perspective of safety; it is coming from ideology.”
“In providing catering services throughout Parliament Buildings, the Assembly Commission strives to meet the differing demands of the special dietary needs of our wide customer base.”
“I support amendment No 96 and oppose amendment No 97. I do not plan to speak to amendment No 96, as there were a number of interventions last night, and I will leave many of the remarks to my party colleague the Minister of Justice. <BR /> <BR />We oppose Timothy Gaston's amendment.”
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“I hope that the Minister has watched the 'Spotlight' documentary from last week, and I look forward to hearing his thoughts on it. <BR /> <BR />Recommendation 50 states:”
“I look forward to hearing from the Minister on that. Recommendation 30 states:”
“Those are not my words but the words of our young people who are living it, and they are the words of those who are able to speak up for themselves. We all know that there are others at a much younger age who enter the care system due to the failure of government to protect them and their families from the hardships that they face. <BR /> <BR />The Minister will get up here today and discuss the budget situation, which we completely understand, but many elements of Ray Jones's 53 recommendations can be implemented with little or no cost. I think about recommendation 25:”
“Absolutely. I agree. They do so on a shoestring budget at times, focusing on fundraising and, at the same time, making sure that the children are their priority. <BR /> <BR />Most importantly, I pay special tribute to VOYPIC, the Experts by Experience reference group and every young person who has provided evidence to Ray Jones, to me and to the Committee over the past few months. I had my speech written out by yesterday, but, last night, I received an email from a young person who has given me permission to name him today and who wanted his thoughts to be read out:”
“<BR /> <BR />As my Committee colleagues have done, I pay tribute to the work of the Reimagine Children's Collective for everything that it has done in amplifying the voices of young people and ensuring that evidence is heard on what is working and what is not. Voice Of Young People In Care (VOYPIC), Children in NI, Include Youth, the Fostering Network, Action for Children, Barnardo’s, the NSPCC and the British Association of Social Workers (BASW) also want to see reform implemented urgently.”
“<BR /> <BR />It has been over 400 days since Professor Jones published his review of the services. That is 400 days since we have had meaningful action on its implementation. This is a priority not only for me as an Alliance health spokesperson but for every spokesperson across the Committee. However, people have been working on the issue long before anyone on the Committee brought it to the Chamber today, and I pay special tribute to Professor Ray Jones. We had the privilege of hearing from him at the Committee, where he expressed concerns at the lack of movement since the 53 recommendations were published. Since then, we have also had the consultation and publication of the consultation responses.”
“I am so glad to get the opportunity to speak on the motion. Our children's social care services have been at crisis point for some time, and it is vital that they are given the platform that they rightly deserve. All children in Northern Ireland supported by the social care sector are our future. Every child deserves the very best in life, and, where that has not been possible, they deserve the very best support and response from the state. As the Chair of the Health Committee stated, there are over 4,100 children in care in Northern Ireland. My constituency of North Belfast is one of the worst-affected, with one in 20 young people in care in one ward in particular. That means that at least one child in every classroom in that area is in some form of care, whether it is residential, kinship or foster.”
“— issue spans years — is now the Chief Medical Officer of Northern Ireland? Does he retain your confidence?”
“I thank the Minister for coming to the Chamber today to answer the question. You mentioned a just outcome for all affected, but, at the minute, it is a very slow and painful outcome for just a small number of families who feel that they can access the processes. <BR /> <BR />Minister, the Chief Medical Officer is on the Department's inquiries implementation programme management board, which is supposed to deal with the learnings from scandals. How can families have any faith in that implementation board when the then chief executive of the Belfast Trust — we do not need to talk about an individual case —”
“Last week, a Sinn Féin colleague of yours suggested that notifying the British Heart Foundation would have prejudiced a police investigation. Last Thursday, at the Policing Board, however, the Chief Constable said that that would not have been the case. Will you apologise for that remark and help us to ascertain whether that fits into the timeline of what you knew and when you knew it? It is important that the public are aware that those notifications can be made. There is innocence until proven guilty, but the safeguarding of young children is always paramount and a priority.”
“Can the Minister touch on an update on the revitalisation of the Housing Executive and whether such revitalisation will go to consultation?”
“That would not be the right course of action to take to ensure that we have confidence in criminal justice and our justice system overall. We need to ensure that, where we can make legislation to close gaps, we do it in the way that best suits the purpose of a swift justice process. <BR /> <BR />I will bring my comments to a close by saying that I welcome the Bill's Second Stage and look forward to working in my capacity as a Policing Board member on its passage. It will have an effect on children in particular and on the retention of data, which I spoke about. I have a priority focus on those two areas, and I look forward to seeing them enabled in law and seeing positive outcomes.”
“In order for them to move swiftly through in a process that allows scrutiny, they need to be in a justice Bill that has miscellaneous provisions, not through primary legislation. I wanted to touch on that, because many Members spoke about the fact that the Bill covers a wide range of issues. I respect the Minister's acknowledgement that some of the details are specific. She has provided a lot of information, and the Department has been forthcoming in that regard. <BR /> <BR />The Minister can correct me, if I am wrong, but I was reading the Bill and doing a calculation while other Members were speaking, and, if the Assembly moved to a process of bringing through primary legislation every time, particularly legislation involving the Department of Justice, we would need 11 pieces of primary legislation for this Bill.”
“As I said, we do not have any amendments in front of us, but the Minister has been clear about the policy intent of the amendments since she introduced the Bill. The Member may know something that I do not know about the Minister's intentions, but I can read them clearly. I am sure that the Minister will address them in her conclusion. <BR /> <BR />I recognise the hard work that many officials in the Department of Justice have put into the Bill. As I mentioned, the hope was that the legislation could have been passed before this mandate. That did not happen, but we have to reflect on the fact that there are many justice Bills and those that come before the House have many provisions.”
“In fact, the Bill is about ensuring confidence and human rights compliance in the entire criminal justice process.”
“<BR /> <BR />I will reflect further on a number of aspects that were referred to by a number of Members today. Throughout the debate, a number of Members specifically mentioned the removal of liberty. Will the Minister comment on that? I am sure that she will do so in her response. The Bill is not intended to remove any liberty.”
“I thank the Deputy Speaker. I do not want to go against what he has said. <BR /> <BR />I take on board the comments that have been made, and, therefore, I look forward to constructive scrutiny of the Bill as it moves through Committee Stage. Hopefully, we will see that happen at a faster pace than has been the case in the past. I raise the issue, Mr Deputy Speaker, because of Bills stalling at Committee Stage in the past because some people were not happy with what was moving through. I get your point about moving on, but I want to highlight the point that we must be constructive where we need to be, and I respect that every Committee Chair has a place to criticise and to bring forward the Committee's views on the Bill. I look forward to discussing it in more detail at Consideration Stage when we discuss those further elements.”
“I thank the Member for her intervention. That is fair enough, but, therefore, it is equally fair to highlight the contradiction that, if you are not aware of the Committee's views on how and when you will scrutinise the entirety of the policy intent of this or any Bill, how can you claim that proper scrutiny will not take place or that the proper processes are not being used? I understand that many Members are not happy with amendments being tabled at Consideration Stage. I also understand that, sometimes, there are political elements to that rather than other elements.”
“I was here for the Chair's remarks at the start. I listened to her, but the remarks that I heard then were not constructive. I understand that the Chair of any Committee must bring forward the Committee's remarks, but I had no confirmation that any such parallel process — a call for evidence and clause-by-clause scrutiny — would take place.”
“I understand that the Minister and the Department wanted to introduce a further justice Bill in the previous mandate but could not do so, and then there was the delay of two years. There is a bit of confusion about scrutiny of the Bill, but there is also some information being put out disingenuously. It is the intention of the Department and the Minister to be very forthcoming on the policy intent. To conflate that with a lack of scrutiny is just wrong, but there may be further things at play in how the Bill will move through the Committee. I am open to any intervention that anyone wants to make.”
“You would not have the wording in front of you, but how many stakeholders would be unwilling to engage? They would be willing to engage at every opportunity when it comes to amendments before a Committee. Clause-by-clause scrutiny can also happen in parallel. I am happy to take an intervention, but it is important to highlight whether the Committee is going to be destructive or constructive in its scrutiny of the Bill. <BR /> <BR />It is very important that the Bill progresses and that we do not have any further delay. Many of my colleagues have highlighted this, but it would be silly of me not to highlight again the delay that was due to there being no sitting Assembly. Civil servants cannot simply draft legislation without a Minister in place to direct them to do so.”
“<BR /> <BR />With regard to the generalities of the scrutiny of the Bill, I was in the Chamber at the start of the debate and I am here at the end of it, and I have heard many times about the tabling of amendments at Consideration Stage. For how many mandates has that been done for many Bills that were introduced by Justice, Finance and all Ministers? I cannot answer that because I have not been around for that long, but I can ask this: how many Ministers have been as forthcoming about the policy intent of such amendments? I understand that a call for evidence and clause-by-clause scrutiny may be being conflated, but what I am hearing from members of the Justice Committee is not a constructive way of scrutinising legislation. You can still work in parallel. You can have your call for evidence when it comes to policy intent.”
“I have a great deal of sympathy on the issue, because we all have many officers coming to us regarding ill-health retirement. The Minister has been taking that seriously and is ensuring that we get more SMPs on board. The argument that there is a process of taking away scrutiny does not really stack up when we have the High Court judgement that we cannot change the decision of the person who has the evidence in their hand. I am glad to see that the Bill will delegate some responsibility, because we are seeing more delays at board level, not through the fault of any officers or individuals but because of the backlog of work and the way that the timings and diaries work. That is another aspect that should be welcomed.”
“On Thursday, the Policing Board will approve a report on the human rights of children and young people. It is important that all agencies work in harmony to ensure that all processes are human-rights compliant, and the Bill is a further step to ensure that that takes place. <BR /> <BR />Ill-health retirement was a focus of the previous Member who spoke. I point that Member to a recent court judgement. I believe that it was Justice Scoffield — I may be corrected — who made the judgement in February 2023 that, in the decision-making process for ill-health retirement, members of the Policing Board and officials cannot change the decision of a senior medical practitioner (SMP). Some elements of the Member's speech on the provisions of the Bill that relate to ill-health retirement and scrutinising decisions therefore do not have effect.”
“<BR /> <BR />Going back to the specific elements of the Bill, there are many occasions in Northern Ireland where we see children come before the courts due not to the actions of the children but to the actions of adults, who have catapulted them into certain behaviours. In the summer, we saw some of the most recent aspects of that. It is important that the presumption of bail in all circumstances for children is actually looked at and is being dealt with within the Bill. <BR /> <BR />As a member of the Policing Board, I think that it is very important that the Department of Justice, the PPS, the PSNI and the Policing Board respond at every opportunity with a human rights-based approach. That is what the Bill intends to do when it comes to children and young people.”
“I have already mentioned that I am proud — we should all be — of our human rights-based approach to the criminal justice process. Again, as a member of the Policing Board, I often visit this issue when it comes to children, and not only at the forefront of the criminal justice process in their engagement with the police. We hear from victims and stakeholders as they make their way through the system, and one of those aspects is bail. I also want to highlight one of the positives about cross-departmental work with the Department of Justice and the Department of Health, which my colleague may have raised earlier, around bail fostering. Hopefully, that is something that we can see explored further.”
“Yes, but I want to touch on the fact that there is retention of fingerprints when it comes to individuals such as Barry and Trevor. They have both spoken to me on many occasions about what the PSNI is doing with the retention of that data. It is not just about them, it is about the many others in question. I believe that we should be proud of the human rights-based approach that we take to our criminal justice system in its entirety — not just the policing aspect, but as people move through the court system. That should be applied to everyone, so I welcome the process that is set out in the Bill on the retention of biometric material. <BR /> <BR />I also want to discuss the issue of children specifically, which is contained within the Bill, and the focus from the Minister around the human rights compliance.”
“First, I should declare — or maybe I should not, but I will — that I am a member of the Policing Board, so I will speak to some of the elements that are a concern for it. <BR /> <BR />First, for some moments, I will focus on the retention of biometric material specifically, because, in my role as a member of the Policing Board, I have come across this issue many times, from requests from members of the public, officials within the board and asking the PSNI. One of the aspects of that is the most recent high-profile case of Barry McCaffrey and Trevor Birney. I understand that a hearing is going on, so I will not touch on many aspects of that.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for letting me in at this late stage. I was at an Assembly Commission meeting. I did not hear all the comments from all the Members, but I gather that everyone stayed mostly within the principles of the Bill at Second Stage. I also want to comment on a number of aspects within the clauses. <BR /> <BR />First of all, I welcome the Bill's coming through its Second Stage in the House. I commend the Justice Minister for bringing forward the sixth piece of legislation in her time as Minister. It is clear that victims are a priority and that the team in the Department has been working on the many miscellaneous items provided within the Bill. I want to speak specifically on a number of those.”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I thought that, particularly at the Second Stage of a Bill, Members should speak to the principles of the Bill. I do not believe that we have such an amendment in front of us, nor is that issue in the Bill to be discussed. Is it proper, Mr Deputy Speaker, that the Member discusses that item rather than relating his comments to the Bill that is front of us?”
“I will go back to the substantive question. What difference will safe staffing legislation make without the staff required to fulfil it?”
“I thank the Minister for bringing this long-awaited statement to the House. In the third paragraph of the statement, Minister, you state that you want to put to rest the belief that there was no engagement or clinical involvement. I am glad that that engagement took place, following the Committee session in which we pressed the Health Department on the lack of engagement. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the reconfiguration framework. Now that we have an overall strategic framework from which all the decisions on this will flow, when will we see more decisions and actions being taken, having evolved from the framework?”
“PIPS has talked us through its services and highlighted how it works with children as young as four when it comes to mental health crises. That is a sad indictment of us as a society. <BR /> <BR />When it comes to the overall aspect of children's services, it is up to the Health Minister to take the lead. We want to hear from him. Perhaps, when the Finance Minister looks at the motion and takes it to the Executive, she can ask the Health Minister, as we have done in the Health Committee, what he will actually do about the implementation of Ray Jones's recommendations. Will he support the recommendation for an arm's-length body and a Minister for children to encompass all the work and bring all Departments together, rather than doing so just through the use of the Children's Services Co-operation Act?”
“<BR /> <BR />I want to touch on the disaster that is the child and adolescent mental health services (CAMHS) waiting list. That is not because of one particular individual; we all have people coming to our constituency office every week who need help. They need access to referral and services. I do not know about the other MLAs in the Chamber, but we do not refer those people to CAMHS. We do not refer them to that service, because we know that they simply will not be able to get it. Instead, we rely on the community and voluntary sector to offer that service to children and young people. Organisations in my constituency include PIPS and Lighthouse. Lighthouse in particular does amazing work with the schools in North Belfast to ensure that we tackle mental health issues, particularly among young men.”
“In particular, I want to speak about my role and that of the all-party group on mental health and the inquiry into mental health education and early intervention. It was quite a lengthy inquiry, and it took place in the absence of an Assembly, so it was important that organisations had an opportunity to give evidence and have their voice heard in the absence of Committees. We heard not only from different sectors, including teachers, teaching unions, the teaching colleges and, of course, the community and voluntary sector, but about best practice across the UK, including in Scotland and Wales. We can learn from that. I recognise that the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Health will lean on finance issues, but a lot of policy recommendations on children's mental health can be implemented.”
“I thank the Opposition for tabling the motion and welcome the opportunity to speak on it. <BR /> <BR />Children's services are a priority for me as a member of the Health Committee. Since joining the Committee, I, along with my Alliance colleagues, have pushed for the issue to be a priority for the entire Committee. I am delighted that the entire Committee is on board. Of course, children's mental health is a priority in that work. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the motion's particular reference to using the powers of the Children's Services Co-operation Act. The Committee has looked in detail at that and particularly at the implementation of the Ray Jones review. There are other issues to highlight, however.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. I want to go back to his comments about core grant funding being only one aspect of funding. I touched on that point, particularly where service delivery contracts are concerned. Will the Minister commit to looking at that specific element of the bureaucracy in what I mentioned? It is often described as "jumping through the hoops" of various organisations, with the Department trying to use a one-size-fits-all approach, rather than those organisations being able to prescribe what is best for the individual patient's needs.”
“— is overseeing its efficiencies in the best way that it can in order to, perhaps, reinstate and use that £1·8 million of funding.”
“Children in NI said that two thirds of the respondents to its review told it that they would have difficulties in sustaining their service levels with the funding cut in 2023-24. Given that the organisations are already providing feedback, I would also like to hear from the Minister about what his Department has done to evaluate the impact of the cut to core grant funding. I understand that it is a priority for the Minister, but my party would like to see actions even with regard to policy. We will support the amendment, because we believe that the Finance Minister also has a role to ensure that Health —”
“is ongoing. If we had implemented previous provisions in the mental health strategy, I would like to have seen us a bit further along. I look forward to hearing from the Minister on that aspect. <BR /> <BR />We have heard from many organisations that have been in touch both when the Assembly came back earlier in September and before that, when all parties got together to finally establish an Executive. My colleague pointed out the need for reform. Otherwise, the stop-and-go merry-go-round of politics will just further exacerbate the problems in the community and voluntary sector. Community Foundation NI has said that the mental health support fund benefited an estimated 150,000 people.”
“I would like to hear a little from the Minister on where we are with that action, particularly with regard to the delivery plan for 2024-25, in which the Department highlights that:”
“<BR /> <BR />We all know that what may work for one individual does not necessarily work for all. That is why we must listen to the experts — those who carry out the service across Northern Ireland — on what can actually help individuals in need. Therefore, I have questions for the Minister. One of the mental health strategy's actions is to:”
“There are so many groups across Northern Ireland that plug the gaps in the health service when it comes to mental health. The core grant funding was able to provide some level of sustainable service, but let us be perfectly clear that, before the cut of 50% to core funding, it was not perfect and there were services that struggled. I also highlight the fact that the funding for services that operated in the community and voluntary sector did so often under strict assistance, guidance and policy from the Department of Health. Many organisations that we speak to across our constituencies highlight the number of hoops that they must jump through and say that, too often, it is not a subjective approach to mental health provision when it comes to that support from the Department and all the trusts.”
“I respect the fact that the Minister claims that mental health is a leading priority of his, so I genuinely want to hear feedback on a number of the points that I will raise in my speech.”
“<BR /> <BR />I recognise the fact that the 50% cut in community and voluntary sector core grant funding is not matched by a 50% cut in the services that are needed. We would like to see services being funded at the level of need. Of course, I recognise the situation in which all Ministers find themselves, but I echo the point that has been made by many across the Chamber that, in the grand scheme of the Department of Health's budget, to ask for £1·8 million is not asking for the world.”
“I will speak in support of the motion and the amendment. I thank the Opposition for tabling the motion, and all today's motions, which are very important and will play a role in shaping how we discuss World Mental Health Day at our Committee meeting on 10 October. <BR /> <BR />I put on record our support for the sector, which, over the past few years — before, during and after COVID — has had to deal with its services being inundated. Every day, more and more people are turning to the community and voluntary sector for matters relating to their health because they know that the health service cannot support them. It is not that it does not wish to support them but that it simply does not have the capacity to do so.”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. She will be aware of the recently published report by Dr Aisling Swaine that highlighted the prevalence of paramilitary violence against women and girls. What is her assessment of that publication?”
“<BR /> <BR />I speak today about North Belfast because it has the second-highest level of deprivation, but I also want to reflect that West Belfast has the highest level by four percentage points. It is even worse than North Belfast. It is important to every one of us. When you see it every day in your constituency office and all that you can do is help people in the short term, it is not enough. We need a long-term solution. I look forward to hearing from the Minister on any of the short-term and long-term measures that can be implemented. I also want to hear how we can, on an all-party basis, through the entire Executive using the Children's Services Co-operation Act (Northern Ireland) 2015, use all the tools to tackle and end child poverty, not just in North Belfast but in every constituency.”
“<BR /> <BR />Yesterday, Alliance launched our policy paper on universal credit and the five-week wait. In North Belfast, more people are migrating to universal credit, so we have more cases and are helping more people with that. Those people, who are on the poverty line, are waiting for five weeks and being pushed further into poverty. We have proposals that are not just about cash injections but about helping people to become more aware of the contingency fund, for example. Let us face it: the two-child cap on benefits and tax credit needs to go. The Government have a role to play. Despite what they said about not wanting to abolish the two-child tax credit limit, the Labour Government need to look again at the people whom they represent and make the move. It would be one of the biggest ways to help lift children out of poverty.”
“A lot of the time, they are in state care due to poverty and their families not having the tools to help themselves. <BR /> <BR />Another issue is mental health and addiction, which is another effect of poverty and the fact that we do not have the right services to help people. I am glad that the Minister has come to the Chamber, but, as I said, it is also an Education, Health and Justice piece. Most importantly, we need to ensure that the anti-poverty strategy is implemented and prioritised across the board and that Sure Start, the pathway fund, Bright Start, Toybox and all the other schemes that are so important get the recognition that they deserve and the investment that they need. Investment does not necessarily mean more money; it can mean raising awareness of what people are able to access.”