Nuala McAllister
North Belfast · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“I have submitted quite a number of questions for written answer on autism services, and the answers, sometimes on the same day from the Department, contradict themselves. The Minister often refers to the emotional health and well-being framework as the idea that will frame all of the uniform services.”
“Absolutely. Everyone is taking my speech; I was going to say that. Of course, it is complex and subjective to the individual person. If we are truly talking about keeping an individual safe and other prisoners safe, we would not do what the amendment proposes; we would carry on in the way that the system already operates, using a risk-bas…”
“I thank the Member for his question. The Assembly Commission is progressing a programme of remedial works to address defects identified in the roof of Parliament Buildings and to protect the long-term integrity of this grade A listed building. The works have been structured in two phases.”
“More often than not, we have conversations in the Chamber or in public about trans women, but that would place a trans man who has been convicted of a violent crime against a woman in a prison with women. It does not make sense, and it is not coming from the perspective of safety; it is coming from ideology.”
“In providing catering services throughout Parliament Buildings, the Assembly Commission strives to meet the differing demands of the special dietary needs of our wide customer base.”
“I support amendment No 96 and oppose amendment No 97. I do not plan to speak to amendment No 96, as there were a number of interventions last night, and I will leave many of the remarks to my party colleague the Minister of Justice. <BR /> <BR />We oppose Timothy Gaston's amendment.”
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“Does the Member agree that it is important that the Department also listens to the voices of young people who are care-experienced, in their feedback on the positive effects that stable foster carers have had on their life? That could speak louder than anything else when it comes to attracting more foster carers.”
“The Minister really needs to ensure that something is done about that in the long term. <BR /> <BR />The reality is that foster caring is vital. Without those stable family-based care options, children in Northern Ireland will be placed in residential care.”
“In one case, the individuals considered fully the potential of becoming foster carers, made enquiries with the trust, completed applications and mandatory training and were convinced that it was the right option for them. They were then informed that the allowance to cover expenses and caring responsibilities was only £7,500 a year. The Minister will be aware that young people who are in care and are under the school age cannot simply be left with a childminder or in a daycare provider because additional rules are, rightly, in place for foster carers. Ultimately, someone needs to be at home with those young people who are in the care system, but how can they do that on £7,500 a year? To be clear, money formed no part of their decision to become foster carers, but it was the sole reason why, in the end, they were unable to do so.”
“I took some time to speak to people who have gone through the process of becoming a foster carer. They said that it is too bureaucratic and process-driven, which, ultimately, leads to people deciding not to pursue the idea. We are facing a serious shortage of foster carers, so we need to make it easier for people to enter the system. I, of course, recognise that issues around safeguarding and child safety must be paramount in the process, but we must ensure that we work hand in hand with people who were driven away from being foster carers and listen to the reasons why. <BR /> <BR />Foster carers also said that a significant barrier is finances, as was stated by the proposer.”
“Instead of hearing about children being first and foremost, we heard about more work streams and about reviews of a review that has taken place. I echo what I said in Committee: a review has already taken place into children's social services — implement it. Implement as many of its recommendations as you can as soon as possible, and, in the long term, implement it in full.”
“A number of those young people were in attendance, and I had the opportunity to speak to them outside the Committee room. They were absolutely fantastic, and what was clear was that, for those from care-experienced backgrounds, a loving and stable foster care system is so important, not just when they are under the care of the state but as they grow into adulthood. That is significant. <BR /> <BR />I will be perfectly honest, Minister: when I heard from the officials present, I was not at all happy with the responses given.”
“In every classroom in some of the most deprived wards in the north Belfast area, there is more than one child in care. That is a shocking figure, and I can attest to its truth. I have four siblings who are teachers, and the stories that they tell me of the number of children in care would just break your heart. <BR /> <BR />The resilience of those kids is also extremely important, however. Before I speak further in the debate, I pay tribute to all the children and staff who work with Voice of Young People in Care (VOYPIC) and Include Youth. A number of weeks ago, the Committee for Health had in the Department of Health and the Strategic Planning and Performance Group (SPPG) so that we could hear about the future of children's social services.”
“I thank the Members who tabled the motion. It is an issue in which I take a special interest, not just in foster carers but in children who are under the care of the state and those who, unfortunately, have been removed from their parents' care. Foster care and children's social services as a whole really need reform, and I very much welcome the independent review by Professor Ray Jones. We will hear from him in Committee soon. I look forward to hearing the Minister's position on all the recommendations from the review. <BR /> <BR />The number of children and young people in care is increasing, as many Members have said, with 1,082 children in Belfast currently in the care system. That is acutely felt in north Belfast in the Water Works ward, an area in my constituency where one in 20 children is in the care system.”
“Sorry for interrupting, Minister. Further to the previous intervention, whilst I recognise and respect that it is outside your to remit to amend the Westminster Act, is there any work that your Department can do in conjunction with or alongside the PSNI to gather evidence on the effect of such drugs and on the negative approach of using a sledgehammer to crack a nut when it comes to using the criminal justice system rather than a health approach?”
“We will join her in campaigning on the issue for the long term.”
“We are not concerned about where it is located, because we do not want a postcode lottery; we want to ensure that everyone in Northern Ireland will have access to it where it is needed. Therefore, we will support the amendment and the motion. Hopefully, I will hear responses from the Minister to some of the points that I have made. <BR /> <BR />I thank the Member for tabling the motion. From being on the Committee with the Member, I know that she is passionate about the issue.”
“On reflection, it seems to me that people get angry about drug overdoses and deaths only when they happen in public. When they happen in quiet rooms, which they often do, people do not get angry, and that is why we need a whole-system approach. We do not need just a health approach or just a criminal justice approach; we need a Department for Communities approach too, because we also need to tackle poverty and the root causes of addiction and the harm that it can do to families and, most importantly, to the individual. Compassion is the way forward. <BR /> <BR />I understand that there is a lot to do in that regard, and I understand that budgets are stretched, but it costs more to do nothing or very little than it does to implement a proper substance abuse strategy and have a rehabilitation service.”
“I took it on myself to become more knowledgeable in that area and understand how it affects people and how every one of those individuals is a person. I went to Depaul Ireland's Stella Maris in the Sailortown area of north Belfast, and I met some amazing people there who suffered, unfortunately, with an alcohol addiction. I spent a lot of time there because it was just so important to have your eyes opened to the realities of what life can throw at you. <BR /> <BR />Carál Ní Chuilín mentioned the trauma that people face in their life. When I thought about that yesterday, I texted someone who went with me to Stella Maris, and I learned that one of the residents there has since died from a drug overdose. They were found with a needle in their arm in a room all alone. I was not aware of that at the time, and that is really sad.”
“They took a public health approach by sending a message about the dangers of using drugs to the phones of 2,000 people whose numbers were on a phone that was found during a drugs raid. That was important, because it showed that there was not just one approach in the criminal justice system, so there should not be just one approach in the health system to tackling drugs. <BR /> <BR />When I was Lord Mayor, I took an interest in the issue because, as I was growing up in north Belfast, members of an extended family suffered from alcohol addiction. At that time, I thought, rather naively, that it was their fault, but I was young, and it is important that we reflect and acknowledge that views change, which is important.”
“When it comes to drugs and addiction, there is a policing element to it. One example is the prevalent use of naloxone and the fact that police officers, as first responders, utilise it. They have spoken at the Policing Board about how it has been useful to them in saving lives. I hope that the Minister can provide feedback on its roll-out to other first responders. When we are talking about budgets that are very stretched, we need to ensure that we have assistance in any way that we can manage. <BR /> <BR />The other angle on a policing response is that the criminal justice system often punishes people for having an addiction, because they have been let down first and foremost by society and then by the health system. Last October, there was a move by the police that I spoke in favour of and supported them on.”
“Thank you, Deputy Speaker. I apologise for not being in my place. I have just spoken to the Minister about my topical question. <BR /> <BR />I thank Órlaithí for tabling the motion. I will start by discussing the poem by Jack that was read out. It is reflective of his mind and of how he was an artistic and capable person who had a whole future ahead of him. It is a really sad fact that society has let down Jack and his family, who have been left behind. <BR /> <BR />It is incumbent on all of us and, most importantly, the Minister to grapple with the issue of addiction in society. It is not just about a health approach — it is about a health approach first and foremost but not just that — and I will speak about that for a moment. I declare an interest as a political member of the Policing Board.”
“I can inform the Minister that I have in my possession, as do others, affidavits signed by former workers at Milltown cemetery, who have stated that they buried infants in the land that is now being reused for burial plots. I urge the Minister to do anything in his power to ensure that the babies buried in those unmarked graves rest in peace.”
“I am conscious of the time. Do you appreciate that the staff who work in the Housing Executive do understand that this is a massive issue, but they are not equipped to deal with this issue? They need assistance from others.”
“If we are not including income as a criterion, how do we get round the fact that there may be those who do shift work from perhaps 9.00 am until 6.00 pm or 8.00 am until 6.00 pm and therefore fall outside that criterion? What assistance can we give them?”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. One of my questions was answered during the debate, but I will follow on from what the Chair asked. On the extension, you are saying that you can commit today that, if this is doable before two years but most likely after one year, you will do it. It is important for the messaging that we hear that it will not take beyond the two years to implement, and we should seek that it be done before then. <BR /> <BR />My other issue is that, last week, we had representatives from the Royal College of Nursing before the Committee, and they explicitly stated their support for free car parking at hospitals to come in as soon as possible and said that a large number of their nurses want to use that.”
“What we are asking for today is that we find common ground, and we can, because we can listen to parents and inform parents that we do not wish to trump their beliefs. We wish to safeguard every single child in Northern Ireland, because every single child and their future matters.”
“No, thank you. <BR /> <BR />I want go back to that point for a moment. I want to tell the really difficult story of a young girl who was not equipped and did not have the appropriate RSE. She was taught in Northern Ireland, and she told her teacher that one of her family members was playing with her muffin. That teacher, because the young girl did not know the correct terms for her body parts, did not know what she was talking about, so could not even get her help until months later. The situation that we find ourselves in is horrific.”
“<BR /> <BR />As a parent, I understand how frustrating it is when people tell me how to educate my children. I also understand that, as a parent, I do not know everything, and that is what is key here. Every Member who brought that up in the debate respected the rights of parents but balanced those with the rights of children. I will go back to that point for just a moment.”
“It is really important that we bring the debate back to the consultation responses, and I agree that we need to listen to those. The Minister focused a lot on those in his response. Is the Minister aware of how many of those consultation responses were from children? According to the Foyle Network Foundation, 0·86% of respondents were children. How do you engage with children if you expect them to fill in an online form or write a letter? You do it through organisations that already engage with them, like the Northern Ireland Youth Forum or the Belfast City Youth Council. You do it through the Children's Law Centre and its youth stakeholders. You do not do it through a convoluted method where you put their parents' choices above theirs.”
“<BR /> <BR />I will speak a little about Tom Elliott 's points about age-appropriate education and the fact that what may be right for one child at one age is not right for another. I will focus on special educational needs (SEN). All children deserve RSE, especially children who have special needs, because those children are the most vulnerable. Some organisations do fantastic work around this already, including Informing Choices NI. It teaches appropriate RSE to the most vulnerable children in SEN settings. It is a very difficult job to do, but it is so important. <BR /> <BR />Nick focused on children being heard and how we need to listen to them. He also highlighted teachers' fear that, at times, they are not equipped and feel that their teaching is already out of date.”
“Do you know what? I will not even respond. <BR /> <BR />We understand that there is a Christian-based ethos in our education system, and some of us do not have a choice in that matter. When you consult parents and say, as a school or a board of governors, that RSE should be about the family unit and how having children through marriage is of the utmost importance, how do you think kids of parents who are not married or those who have two mothers or two fathers feel? The RSE consultation report explicitly states that schools will teach about the priority of the family unit and having children in marriage. Let us get real when we talk about school ethos. We need to protect children so that they feel that they are valued in the classroom and that their existence and identity are just as important as everyone else's.”
“We do not agree with the opt-out approach, because we, along with international experts across the globe, believe that the child's rights should be upheld when it comes to RSE. I am not surprised at the DUP and the fact that it does not like the human rights approach. We do not want to impose our ethics. <BR /> <BR />I turn to some points about school ethos made by not only David Brooks but Diane Dodds and Jonathan Buckley. Let us be frank: you mean religion. Let us talk for a moment for those of us who are not religious, do not believe in God or do not think that ethos should trump all the rights of everybody. We understand —”
“We cannot have a difference from school to school in what our young people are taught. <BR /> <BR />David Brooks said that parents are best placed for this. He said that we need to look at school ethos; that we need to get real; that we have to be careful not to be dangerous and immoral; that we need to make sure that the family unit is the best place; and that we need to ensure that we have the trust of parents in educating our young people. I turn to a number of his points in which he said that we cannot get involved and should not trump the rights of parents. He mentioned that we trust parents to do all that they can in the areas of education, nutrition and shelter. That is not an absolute trust, which is why we have children's social services. There are instances in which the state must and should get involved.”
“I thank the Member for clarifying. I am happy to move on to some of his other points. Before I do so, there are organisations that I will thank for engaging with representatives across the Chamber, including the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Children and Young People; the NSPCC; Barnardo's; the Children's Law Centre; Include Youth; Alliance for Choice; and Marie Curie. That is not an exhaustive list, but there are too many to name every one. <BR /> <BR />I will now turn to points that were made in the debate. I thank Cara Hunter for tabling the amendment, which we will support. The Member spoke about consent, and she highlighted that some young people said that they did not know that they could withhold consent and, ultimately, say no. That is absolutely shocking. Pat Sheehan highlighted consistency. I agree that consistency is key.”
“I urge the Member to engage with the NSPCC on it.”
“<BR /> <BR />What is more, as other Members have pointed out, our children have said that they want and need a curriculum that will equip them as they grow up in the world. The appetite for standardised, age-appropriate and inclusive RSE is high among our children and young people. We must deliver for them. As Members have said, it is not about usurping the rights of parents. I am a mother of two young boys who are aged five and seven. We have already begun to teach them at home about consent and bodily autonomy. I will send special thanks to the NSPCC for its campaign "Talk PANTS", which is a fantastic example of how RSE can be taught in an age-appropriate way. I am concerned by the comments that some Members made — Tom Elliott in particular — and by their negativity towards and criticism of that campaign.”
“However, although detractors may not wish it to be the case, the reality is that far too many children and young people experience domestic and sexual abuse. PSNI stats show that recorded sexual offences against under-18s doubled between 2012-13 and 2022-23, with 55% of sexual crimes reported in 2022-23 being against children under 18. That equates to 2,324 reported cases of sexual abuse of children. According to the NSPCC, more than 15% of children aged 11 to 18 have been asked to provide self-generated sexual images, and 25% of girls and 18% of boys aged 13 to 17 have experienced a form of physical violence from an intimate partner. Frankly, those figures are terrifying. We cannot afford to do nothing or to do the bare minimum.”
“Before I sum up the debate, I will make some important points. I am proud to have put my name to such an important motion. Fundamentally, it seeks to give our children the tools that they need to protect themselves from abuse and coercion and to help young people know what a healthy relationship looks like. To portray what the motion sets out to do as anything other than that is simply pandering to talking points and social media-driven fearmongering. <BR /> <BR />I am not surprised, although I am disappointed, by how opponents of the debate in the Chamber and outside have used misinformation and scare tactics to avoid educating children. They are also using potentially defamatory language.”
“You highlighted a very crucial age in a child's development. At the age of 12, the majority of young people either have entered or are entering puberty. It is very important that they are all equipped with the correct tools for safeguarding and for their bodily autonomy, regardless of their level of maturity or whether they have special educational needs or special needs.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Is it appropriate for the Member not to direct his comments through the Chair? It is quite clear that he is not doing so. Perhaps the Member might be able to control himself.”
“You mentioned all the different ways in which we can address poverty. I highlight something that was not mentioned in the debate today: while the Tory Government have ripped away the safety net from many families across Northern Ireland, many organisations in the charity and voluntary sectors have stepped up and provided the much-needed support that the Government should have provided. It is important to put it on record that we are grateful to the organisations that are knitted into our community for providing support where the Government have fallen down.”
“<BR /> <BR />We will support the motion and the amendment, but, like many others in the Chamber, I call on the Health Minister to address the issue in more detail, perhaps through another statement on how he can work in conjunction with the Minister of Finance. As others said, the issue should not be tackled through one Department alone. I look forward to perhaps hearing from the Health Minister, and, no doubt, his colleagues will express the sentiment of everyone in the Chamber. <BR /> <BR />I thank the Members for tabling the motion and the amendment, both of which we will support.”
“For people who have lost, either through pregnancy or at stillbirth, those in that service need to ensure that they provide the appropriate level of care from day one right up until the people are ready to leave the service. <BR /> <BR />I will now focus on the paediatric and perinatal pathology aspect of the motion. As has been mentioned, following the resignations in 2018, we heard many times from the Health Minister, both before and after the collapse of the Assembly, about the unsuccessful trawl for the reinstatement of those services. I must ask this: what is the plan? Are there any training opportunities? Is there a workforce plan for this service? Has a scoping exercise taken place, or is one being done to see whether people want to train and work in the pathology service here? If not, why not?”
“Whether the loss happens at 12, six, 21 or 22 weeks, the issue remains the same: every one of those individuals mattered and was loved by the women who lost them. <BR /> <BR />I also pay tribute to the midwives who take such precious care of the families who have lost a baby. That can take many forms. I know many midwives who have ensured, where they can, that they get those little handprints, snippets of hair or even just gently handle the women who are undergoing the loss. The care that our medical practitioners, such as those midwives, take is much appreciated by every single woman who has undergone a miscarriage. <BR /> <BR />However, the service is simply not adequate, and I will touch on that. We need to ensure that we fully invest in our perinatal mental health services.”
“I thank the Members who have spoken on what is a sensitive but very important issue. I also pay tribute to my colleague Kellie Armstrong. This is not the first time that I have heard Kellie speak out bravely about her own circumstances, but that is not commonplace for everyone, and the bravery of every woman who chooses to speak out must be commended. As Mark Durkan, who spoke previously, said, those who suffer alone and hide their grief by keeping it to themselves deal with it in their own way. Whether we, as legislators, can help those people cope individually is the matter that we are here to discuss. <BR /> <BR />I thank everyone who has contributed to the debate, specifically on the baby loss certificates. Everyone in the Chamber knows someone who has lost that very much-wanted and loved child.”
“The Minister will recognise that care packages also exist for those who are not adults, such as children with learning difficulties and those whose behaviour is extremely challenging for their parents. What is the Minister's Department doing for the families in the Northern Trust area who have waited almost four years for respite services?”
“Let us be clear, however, that it is only through truth, transparency, the accountability of all involved and the pursuit of justice will those families finally be at peace.”
“In the days and, unfortunately, years that followed, they were marked by that search for truth and justice and, most importantly, by the courage of Alan Black, as he had the courage to go back to the scene of the crime not long after recovery. That spoke volumes about his determination then. Now, at 80 years old, he still stands strong in speaking for the legacy of his friends and colleagues.”
“I rise to mark not only what passed at the end of last week but an abhorrent, disgusting and shameful action by the IRA on 5 January 1976. Most importantly today, I pay tribute to the sole survivor and to the families of those who perished in the Kingsmills massacre. <BR /> <BR />I learned about the massacre as a young adult. Having not heard about it until my late teens, I could not believe that it had actually taken place. It is another shameful reminder of the actions of the IRA and the brutality of the sectarianism of our past. It is very unfortunate that we remain in circumstances in which families and the sole survivor are not happy and are still searching for truth and justice.”
“I understand that this has been an issue since long before the current Minister's time in office, and it will take some time to assess and fix completely. However, every person on the housing waiting list is a person in need and in crisis. I hope that, because the matter has been brought to the Chamber today, the Minister will realise that it is on the agenda and is a priority of every MLA in North Belfast. Hopefully, we can progress housing and anti-poverty issues so that we can see more housing relief in North Belfast. I thank the Member for securing the Adjournment debate, and I look forward to the Minister's response.”
“However, if there was anything else that the Minister could do, such as putting his weight behind the call for more funding and allocations, so that the Housing Executive could speed that up, I know that many families in North Belfast would appreciate it, because, in the current situation, some are physically unable to use rooms in their homes, and such help would mean that they could remain in their homes.”
“People in their 80s who live in Housing Executive houses are having to rely on their children going to MLAs to try to get the work on their homes sped up. We are talking about people being left in the cold. We are also talking about family members whose asthma has worsened, for example, because of the mould that is growing in their Housing Executive property. We need to ensure that there is a review of all existing Housing Executive stock so that there are proper standards when it comes to damp and insulation. <BR /> <BR />I understand that the Housing Executive is working to address the maintenance backlog.”
“My view differs from that of the previous Member to speak in that I do not think it is acceptable for families to be placed in tower blocks without access to community space. I agree that there needs to be a balance struck between what people want and what they prioritise, because, in North Belfast, we have more urban city living. We need to ensure that there is a balance, as with everything else. <BR /> <BR />I would like to touch on the crisis in maintenance work in North Belfast, which has not been mentioned. The Housing Executive is so overwhelmed that we are getting into a situation where — this is not just because of COVID, so it cannot be the excuse any longer — the maintenance of Housing Executive houses at the current level is not acceptable.”
“I understand that there is not enough housing, but it simply cannot go on any longer. We also need to address the reasons why people are in housing crisis. We, ultimately, need the anti-poverty strategy and to address poverty in its entirety. <BR /> <BR />The issue of derelict buildings was addressed by the previous Member to speak, and Carál raised the vesting issue. It is important that the Communities Minister works with the AERA Minister to look at what we can do about derelict and dilapidated buildings. There is no doubt that the Housing Executive could use every single one of them — it could upgrade them and put families in them. I hope that we can progress that issue, too. <BR /> <BR />Tower blocks were mentioned.”
“I agree that we need to reform the system to ensure that it is fair. I do not doubt that every Member is in the same boat as I am in my constituency office with housing issues, which are the most stressful, accounting for the highest volume of cases. I have a family in North Belfast who have over 210 points, but, because of the type of house that they need due to having children with special needs, they have been left homeless for over four years. At one point, they were moved into temporary accommodation, which is yet another issue. Temporary accommodation for families is often far outside North Belfast. We have families who can no longer send their children to school because their temporary accommodation is out by the airport, for example, and the school is in inner-city North Belfast. That is not acceptable.”