Peter Martin
North Down · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Minister, the Northern Ireland Audit Office report is very critical of your Department on the topic of flood risk. You have just read out some interventions that your Department has made. The report's most substantial criticism is that your Department cannot show that its activities to build flood risk defences:”
“It also seeks to rebalance a level of government control by removing certain powers that the Department currently holds, including direction and control over appointments to board positions. That supports the case for reclassification by ONS.”
“<BR /> <BR />Members were keen to hear directly from young people, who will probably be most affected by GDL, so we consulted the Youth Assembly. The Committee was impressed by the thoughtful and constructive nature of that engagement.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am confident that the Committee will be able to engage positively and work collaboratively with the Department to ensure that the Bill reflects the current areas where reform is required.”
“<BR /> <BR />Having considered all the evidence, the Committee ultimately concluded that it would not be appropriate to proceed until it was fully satisfied that the driving instructor sector believed that the proposed date of 1 October 2026, which the Minister referenced, was realistic and achievable.”
“With your permission, Mr Speaker, it is important to consider the proposal in the context of the wider legislative package that is required to bring GDL into operation, and the Minister referenced that. <BR /> <BR />At the outset, I make it clear that the Committee supports the principle of GDL.”
The complete record
Every one of 893 lines we hold for Peter Martin, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 11 of 18.
“Thankfully, someone is happy: Mahmoud Mardawi, a senior Hamas official. He said that it is:”
“It will now be banked by Hamas as justification for the 7 October massacre. It will not advance peace or a lasting solution. <BR /> <BR />Notwithstanding the political expeditiousness of the decision, as Thomas Hand, the father of one of the female Jewish hostages taken on October 7, said this morning on 'Good Morning Ulster', it could have been used for peace rather than for rewarding terror. The Prime Minister could have used it to gain the release of the remaining hostages, but, rather, the decision rewards terrorism. The Hostages and Missing Families Forum, an organisation that represents relatives of Jewish hostages with British ties, has also condemned the decision, calling it a:”
“Over the weekend, the Prime Minister recognised a state of Palestine. Using the established criteria for the recognition of a state — the Montevideo convention — it failed most if not all of those criteria. It clearly lacks a Government who are capable of exercising authority over their territory; a defined territory; and a settled population. Recognition was supposed to be at a critical point for political negotiations for a long-term solution in the region, but we are nowhere near that, and the recognition will make no beneficial difference. It will not ease the suffering of anyone in Gaza or, on the admission of the Government, feed a single child. It is deeply imbalanced and, incredibly, requires nothing of Hamas or the Palestinian Authority. Most disgracefully, it does not even gain the release of the remaining hostages.”
“I share that real-world impact because some of those watching the debate may think that a Water, Sustainable Drainage and Flood Management Bill is not very thrilling, but it has a real-world impact. <BR /> <BR />The Committee, alongside the Department and the Minister, recognises that the Bill could elicit really positive changes for the people of Northern Ireland. I look forward to scrutinising its progress through the Infrastructure Committee.”
“I am a fisherman, and when I read about fish kills in rivers, it breaks my heart, because the rivers take years to recover, and there is nothing that anyone can do about it. It just happens, and that is it. We will undoubtedly have a look at that in the course of this. <BR /> <BR />On my own experience of the impact that the legislation could have as it progresses, in my constituency, we are trying to build a play park. The money is there for it, and everything is in order to take it forward, but it is stuck in planning because of a disagreement between Northern Ireland Water and the planners. Northern Ireland Water has simply said, "Where is the offset drainage?" The children cannot have a play park because of some of the things that we are going to be looking at in the Bill.”
“I assure the Minister that I and the Committee will work alongside her and her Department to ensure that we get the best and most effective legislation that we can. <BR /> <BR />If it is OK, I will make some short comments as a DUP MLA. I am encouraged that the Bill is at Second Stage. I also see the real and meaningful impact that effective legislation can have for everyone in Northern Ireland, businesses and homeowners. When I looked through the Bill last night and studied some of the clauses, I noted that some of them will make a real and meaningful impact in certain areas, and I referred to them in my speech as Committee Chair. I will pick up on one or two of them. How do we ensure that we have less pollution in watercourses? Obviously, there are the well-documented issues in Lough Neagh, but also in other watercourses.”
“In its scrutiny, it may examine historical information around the uptake of the scheme and the forecasted funding requirements to ensure that the eligible homeowners can access the available support to make preventative improvements that minimise the devastating impacts caused by flooding. <BR /> <BR />Assuming that the Bill completes its Second Stage today, the Committee will take all the necessary time to consider its scrutiny and to develop a plan of whom it might wish to call to give evidence. I very much look forward to the continuance of the constructive engagement by both the Department and Northern Ireland Water that we have seen during the Committee's preliminary scrutiny to ensure that important issues contained in the Bill get the attention that they deserve.”
“Such events have an impact not only on infrastructure but on people's homes, as well as businesses. It is therefore critical that we seek to advance all possible preventative measures to minimise the risks and devastating impacts that floods can have and to more widely build capacity in our flood forecasting infrastructure to generate the much-needed, real-time data to provide a much swifter flood response. Undoubtedly, the Committee will seek to examine the key issues arising from such extreme flooding events and the support that is available to those who have been affected. Of particular interest to the Committee will undoubtedly be the provision that will put the homeowner flood protection grant scheme on a statutory basis.”
“<BR /> <BR />During the pre-legislative evidence, the Committee expressed some concern over the uncertainty of the funding available. Therefore, I am sure that the Committee will wish to explore that in more detail, now that the Bill is before us. These provisions have the potential to make a very positive impact and deliver intended policy objectives. However, without sustained and sufficient funding, they may simply be a power that cannot be effectively used. It is therefore important that the Committee seeks to examine all the provisions to ensure that the powers can be fully utilised to deliver against the Bill's legislative aims. <BR /> <BR />I turn to another key aspect of the Bill. Our ability to respond and manage our flood response has been tested over recent years due to the increasing trend of extreme weather events.”
“<BR /> <BR />As every Member will know, Northern Ireland Water has been operating from a very constrained financial position, and therefore I am sure that that will be an ongoing consideration. The Committee will be keen to examine Northern Ireland Water's assessment of its financial requirements to deliver the intended policy and legislative outcomes using these powers. That is particularly critical given the underinvestment in our water network, which, as we have all seen, is having a severe impact on our ability to build new homes and to facilitate economic growth due to a lack of capacity in the overall system. Whilst those funding constraints form part of a much wider issue that will not be solely resolved through the Bill, the additional powers in it can seek to deliver the much-needed incremental improvements to our network.”
“The Bill also contains provisions to enable Northern Ireland Water to adopt private drainage infrastructure that was built — the Minister just reflected on this — before 1973, which will be of obvious and critical benefit to the overall network. The Committee will undoubtedly be interested to examine the particular circumstances envisaged that could be constituted to benefit the network to mitigate flood or environmental damage. Furthermore, provisions to enhance the powers to deal with misconnections to the network, which, as we all know, can be a source of water pollution, will also undoubtedly be of interest to the Committee's scrutiny processes.”
“In addition, powers to introduce guidance and arrangements for the use of sustainable drainage systems, known as SuDS, will play an important role in supporting the legislation's implementation across Northern Ireland, should the Bill be enacted.”
“Following that session, the Committee received further evidence from representatives of Northern Ireland Water, which, as we all know, will be a key stakeholder throughout the Bill's passage. I record our thanks to the Department and to Northern Ireland Water for making themselves available to provide that evidence, which allowed the Committee to gain a more comprehensive understanding of the key aspects of the Bill. <BR /> <BR />In the course of the Department's oral evidence, the Committee noted that the Bill will include measures in seven policy areas. Understandably, the Committee will be keen to examine the scope of such measures, including activities that would be prohibited during a hosepipe ban to better manage water supplies during drought.”
“As we have heard, the Bill will amend and enhance existing legislation to introduce measures to decrease pollution in watercourses; to enhance our ability to withstand extreme weather events, particularly flooding and drought, which the Minister mentioned, through strengthened flood resilience; to encourage the use of sustainable drainage systems, known as "SuDS" — an incredibly apt acronym for such a drainage defence — to manage surface water; and to improve water resource management through the introduction of a more environmentally friendly solution . <BR /> <BR />The Committee undertook some pre-legislative scrutiny of the outline proposals when it received oral evidence from departmental officials at its meeting in April last year.”
“I will also say to her that this lectern is hers: I am just trying to fill her shoes for a period. <BR /> <BR />I will speak on the Bill in my role as Committee Chair and may then make some short comments in my role as a DUP MLA. <BR /> <BR />Now that the Bill has been formally introduced, the Committee will conduct a more detailed examination of its provisions, should it pass Second Stage.”
“Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. I thank the Minister for her statement. <BR /> <BR />Mr Deputy Speaker, I hope that you will indulge me for a moment so that I may take the opportunity to record the Committee's gratitude and mine for Deborah's work. She is stepping back from political duties. As most people are aware, she is expecting a baby and is in the last stage of her pregnancy. Hopefully, she is doing something more interesting and relaxing than watching the Second Stage of the Water, Sustainable Drainage and Flood Management Bill today. I certainly hope that she is, but I suspect that she is not; she is probably watching us. That gives me a great opportunity to pass on my best wishes to her. I hope to see her later in the week. It is an incredibly exciting time for her and Robert.”
“I warmly welcome the Minister's statement. I know that the Education Committee has been very keen to see progress on the issue. This morning, you have outlined a plan, provided the costings for it and are clearly championing it. It will be up to the other Executive parties as to whether they are going to support it. Will spaces in mainstream schools that were previously repurposed in order to establish specialist provision be restored as part of the capital plan that you have outlined?”
“They relate to a pattern. How do we do things better? How do we make the money go further? What can we do differently that will increase the output for, more or less, the same input?”
“Part of the issue is the economy of scale that you would get from filling the three potholes, not just the one with the yellow marking around it. Again, that is probably a question that, I am sure, the Minister will pick up on. <BR /> <BR />Some Members have reflected on this, but I can also say that I have an excellent relationship with the officials in our North Down section office. They work really hard. We are all MLAs, and the Minister is an MLA who has the same issues as we have and are talking about in the Chamber. That is not the issue: the issue is how we can do things a little better and more efficiently. Clearly, I have several issues from a local North Down perspective, and I will continue to raise those.”
“However, the question to the Minister is this: given that there is a finite budget and that I do not believe that she has a magic wand, where does she envisage the efficiency savings and what can she do with them? That is absolutely key, unless more money is coming. It is about what you can do more efficiently and effectively in the Department with a finite pot of money to make it go further. <BR /> <BR />I will pick up on the famous yellow squares or circles around our potholes. Sometimes, I have witnessed three potholes, one of which has a yellow circle around it, while two do not. The one with the yellow circle is filled, but the other two, which were all of one and a half feet away, is not. I do not really get that. There may be a reason for it, but I do not see it.”
“I thank the Member for Lagan Valley for that intervention. I agree completely. It is a real issue. I do not think that the Minister has a magic wand. If she does, she could get it out, which would be great, but I do not think that she has one. <BR /> <BR />That brings me on to my next point, which is a question for the Minister. We have a finite budget, and the Member on the other side who spoke previously mentioned the fact that a lot of the issue has to do with the finite budget and the British Government not giving us enough money. However, I will point out that the baseline has been lifted — it used to be £1·2 billion and is now £1·24 billion — so there is more money than has recently been apportioned.”
“There are two people in wheelchairs, and somebody else is on a rollator". The Member mentioned that. Those people said, "This is a real issue. It is actually dangerous for us to go out of our house". I thank the Minister for agreeing to send some DFI officials down to meet me. We will pick up on some of those issues at some point in the near future.”
“We had a constructive meeting, and she will take on board some of the issues that came from that meeting, which is right and proper. <BR /> <BR />Some figures that were quoted included £33 million in public liability claims over the past five years. That was a figure that I certainly heard. I imagine that much of that money covered damage from potholes and some was for damage from slips, trips and falls. I want to pick up on the point that the Member for Lagan Valley made. I have serious concerns about the state of some of our pavements in North Down. Over the summer, I was canvassing in a quiet residential area, and, as I knocked on doors, I realised that most of the people were elderly. The state of the pavements was appalling, and people were saying to me, "Peter, can you not do something about this?”
“It is a legislative Chamber. We do not have that Ministry, so we have to hold the Minister to account. I will further point out to him that, in my constituency of North Down, this is probably the most talked about issue. Everyone has a view on our roads. The Member for Lagan Valley reflected that, and I might come back to it in a minute. It is right that we are having the debate, and I pay tribute to my colleagues who tabled the motion. <BR /> <BR />I have a few comments to make and a few questions for the Minister. I will start with the really easy ones. Andrew McMurray mentioned Martyn Boyd from MAG-UK and referenced the fact that his colleague is not here. Martyn is a campaigner for better road safety, and, to be fair to the Minister, she recently met Martyn and me.”
“I was not really planning to speak this evening, but I will pick up on a few points that other Members have made. First, I pay tribute to Mr Boylan, who managed to squeeze a call for a united Ireland into a roads debate. That takes some doing, but well done nonetheless. Mr McNulty started, I think, by attacking us for tabling the motion. He is nodding at me, so I will take that as a fair summary. I do not want to put words in his mouth. I simply say to him that I think that that is our job.”
“On a point of order, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. Mr Baker is talking about the RSE inquiry. As far as I am aware, you indicated that you were keen to keep the debate to the group 2 amendments on the School Uniforms (Guidelines and Allowances) Bill.”
“<BR /> <BR />Principal Deputy Speaker, thank you for your time and your indulgence. I will finish my remarks on the group 2 amendments by saying again that the Bill will make a difference for parents who buy school uniforms. I am one of those parents, as are many people in the room. The Bill will make a really positive impact as we look forward to the new school year, and I commend it to the House.”
“I realise that that is not the case with every school in Northern Ireland, as did the Committee during Committee Stage, but there are outliers. I am sure that nobody here would want to lose small, independent retailers from our towns. On that basis and because of its drafting, we will oppose amendment No 6. <BR /> <BR />We think that clause 2 is probably the wrong place for amendment No 7 and that it should be to clause 6. That is a technical flaw. As with amendment No 6, amendment No 7 would add the term "provider", and, given that "retailer" is already mentioned, we think that that is unnecessary and erroneous. Therefore, we will oppose amendment No 7. <BR /> <BR />We do not view amendment No 13 as being particularly problematic and will not force a Division on it.”
“<BR /> <BR />It is our understanding that amendment No 6 could have some unintended consequences. The Member who spoke previously talked about the impact that having a monopoly or one supplier can have, but we also heard evidence in Committee that there are very small schools, some post-primary but mostly primary, in rural Northern Ireland — perhaps in south Down, south Armagh and west Tyrone — that are not near large towns and therefore may have arrangements with a local supplier. That arrangement may be particularly valuable to parents, because buying from that supplier, although it may be the only supplier of that primary school's uniform, may be incredibly cost-effective. A really positive arrangement may be in place.”
“We have some general concerns about their drafting. During the debate on the group 1 amendments, the Minister mentioned advice from the OLC, and, during his speech, the SDLP Member for West Tyrone talked about how the success of the Bill will be judged by pounds and pennies saved, not by technical drafting. I say, however, looking at amendment Nos 5, 6 and 7, that technical drafting is important, as it sets out the policymakers' legal intent. We have to be mindful of that. <BR /> <BR />On amendment No 5, we consider the phrases "play-based curricula" and "outdoor learning" not to have been defined in primary legislation. We recognise the intent of the amendment but feel that, on balance, that intent is already covered in clause 2 and will be, I am sure, further clarified in the guidelines. We will therefore oppose amendment No 5.”
“That is great. Sorry, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. <BR /> <BR />If it is possible, I will make one more remark and then move on to amendment Nos 5, 6 and 7, because Members who spoke previously brought up the scrutiny phase. I felt that there was an impetus to get the Bill through. Parents who are watching the debate will be keen to see the legislation in place. It should not be bad legislation but good legislation that makes a difference. The Member who spoke previously mentioned that. <BR /> <BR />I will outline our party's position on the group 2 amendments. Amendment No 2, taken in conjunction with amendment No 3, is likely to widen the number of consultees. We do not plan to oppose those amendments. <BR /> <BR />I will talk generally and then specifically about amendment Nos 5, 6 and 7.”
“Members, there was significant debate in Committee on the Bill.”
“It is probably the single most important thing that stuck with me during the entire Committee Stage. That is what I believe that the Bill will address. I say to the Member for South Down, "Have faith", because when the Bill gets legislative status and the guidelines are there, it will help children in that sort of situation avoid being faced with the choice that that girl had.”
“I think that this has been talked about, but it is interesting how we all remember these things, and I remember something slightly different in the evidence that she gave. She said that she would like to play more sports in sixth form. I think that she had moved school. She was moving into what we would maybe call lower sixth. I am sure that there is a number for that these days, but, in old money, it was lower sixth. She was very sporty, and she was just chatting away. What I loved about her was the openness. She shared what she thought. She said, "I would love to play more sport, but my family simply can't afford the range of sports gear and kit that I would require to do the things that I want to do in lower sixth". I know that that impacted on the Committee and on some Members in the Chamber.”
“I thank the Chair for that intervention. I hope that I did not suggest that a cost-cap number was ever talked about, but that number was chatted about, as was the concept of a cost cap. It was actually reflected in both speeches. If you have a cost cap, usually you need a number associated with that, and that would be difficult. <BR /> <BR />I must say that the Member for South Down Mr McGrath has admirably stepped in for his colleague who is apparently sunning herself somewhere. I found myself nodding along with him on several occasions during his speech, because I completely agree that the purpose of the legislation is to make sure that no child is prohibited from being sent, and no parent or family feels prohibited from sending their child, to any given school due to cost. I recall one young lady coming to the Committee.”
“Not only do I think that it is not a good idea to put numbers into primary legislation because, for example, it does not take account of inflation as the years go on, but not having a figure is a good idea because it allows the guidelines to reflect that and to take evidence around it.”
“<BR /> <BR />Just as an example, a cost cap of £250 was talked about at one point at the Committee. Some post-primary schools might think, "Well, we're going to struggle to bring our entire school uniform in at £250". Other schools, we know, are doing it for less even as we speak. In fact, I spoke to a principal about two weeks ago who was in that situation. I more or less gave him that example, and he said to me, "If you put that figure in, do you not think that schools that are under that might raise the cost of their uniforms to hit that cost cap? If that's the amount you're allowed, can you raise it?" That is called an inverse incentive or a perverse incentive to try to meet a criterion.”
“I start by picking up on a few things that have been talked about so far. I did not make an intervention because I did not want to slow things down any more. I will pick up on the Committee Chair's comments on the cost cap and the impetus to have said cost cap. That was debated at length at the Committee, and it was a useful discussion. We looked at the cost cap and took evidence from, for example, the Competition and Markets Authority (CMA). Some members were keen to have one, and we tried to say what the figure would be. I suggest that, if everyone in the Chamber was asked to write down what they thought that the cost-cap figure for school uniforms should be, we would have a lot of different numbers, and that is the problem. It becomes more of a problem when a figure is put into primary legislation, because it cannot be changed.”
“Whilst there are clearly other clauses, and there should be, in my view, the core is about bringing down costs, and I hope that that is exactly what it will do.”
“I thank the Chair of the Education Committee. There is a range of clauses in the Bill, and we have looked at some of them about reporting procedures and what the scope of the legislation will be. If you actually were to ask someone what the School Uniforms (Guidelines and Allowances) Bill is designed to do, or if you had watched media on it or had spoken to anyone who is interested and has followed the progress of it, I believe that they would say, "Is that the one that is supposed to do something about sports kits?" I have spoken to lots of parents about it. People who have, perhaps, been watching the Assembly debates have even come up to me and said, "I hope that that Bill is going to reduce the cost of our sports kits".”
“I am more than happy to take an intervention from the Committee Chair.”
“I have finished my remarks. Madam Deputy Speaker?”
“I have no gift of prophecy. I certainly have not seen the guidance, but I have confidence in our Minister. He said that he would bring the Bill forward, and he has done so. I am confident because he has got it to the fourth stage and through the Committee. My thoughts were not always in line with everyone else's, but I welcomed the debate at Committee Stage and our chance to scrutinise the Bill. I say to the Member for Lagan Valley that I have confidence that the Bill will deliver what it is supposed to. Its scope is about bringing down the costs of school uniform for all parents across Northern Ireland. The Bill will do that, and I look forward to seeing it, hopefully, become legislation as quickly as possible. That is the best way to deliver for every parent in Northern Ireland when it comes to buying school uniforms.”
“It will not help just one small subsection of the community, one religious background or one political affiliation; it will help every single parent in Northern Ireland.”
“Thank you very much, Principal Deputy Speaker. An hour and a half ago, I pointed out that I was slightly disappointed in the tenor of the debate. Yes, this is a political debating Chamber and, yes, political points are scored at times. However, the Bill is designed to reduce, and will deliver on reducing, the cost of school uniforms for parents across Northern Ireland, which is to be welcomed. I would have been surprised had the other parties stood up and said, "This is a great Bill. This is what it is going to do", because it was introduced by my colleague the Minister. It is a manifesto commitment by our party, and we are delivering on it. I would have liked there to be a little more warmth in the Chamber towards the Bill. The Bill is not political.”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. She will be aware that I would like to see more money go to North Down for road maintenance and footpath repairs. My office has done a lot of work in that area. Over the summer, I certainly saw examples of pavements that are, frankly, dangerous for the elderly in areas where lots of elderly people live. My understanding is that there is no money. Will the Minister commit to sending some of her senior officials to North Down to meet me and the section engineer there to look at specific areas and to see whether something can be done?”
“As the Minister will be aware, a decision was taken to close minor injury units (MIU) in Bangor and Newtownards, albeit quite recently, and to relocate them to the Ulster Hospital. Does the Minister agree that, for people who have no car and have to rely on a taxi to get to the ED at the Ulster Hospital, it is an expensive trip?”
“I thank the Member for West Belfast for his question. I will point out a few things to him. Clearly, the Speaker makes those decisions, and he is completely independent. Secondly, on numerous occasions during Committee Stage, I and my colleague pointed out that there were some things in the amendments that I felt — that is just my opinion — were outside the Bill's scope.”
“We have before us a Bill — Members can have different views on this — that will, in my view and in the expert opinion of the Office of the Legislative Counsel (OLC), reduce uniform costs for parents in Northern Ireland.”
“I was not planning to speak at this stage — my colleague and I have separated out the groups — but I thought that I would pick up on a couple of things that have been said so far. The Member for West Tyrone Mr McCrossan is not in his seat. He said that the success of the Bill will be judged by the pounds and pennies that are saved and not by its "technical drafting". To a degree, I agree with him in that the outworking and policy intent of the Bill will be judged by the amount that parents actually save. To achieve that policy intent, legislation has to be right, and that is what we are about at fourth stage today. <BR /> <BR />I want to pick up my feeling so far in the debate from some other parties. Obviously, Members are on the Committee with me. I am a bit disappointed in the negativity around the debate.”