Peter Martin
North Down · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Minister, the Northern Ireland Audit Office report is very critical of your Department on the topic of flood risk. You have just read out some interventions that your Department has made. The report's most substantial criticism is that your Department cannot show that its activities to build flood risk defences:”
“It also seeks to rebalance a level of government control by removing certain powers that the Department currently holds, including direction and control over appointments to board positions. That supports the case for reclassification by ONS.”
“<BR /> <BR />Members were keen to hear directly from young people, who will probably be most affected by GDL, so we consulted the Youth Assembly. The Committee was impressed by the thoughtful and constructive nature of that engagement.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am confident that the Committee will be able to engage positively and work collaboratively with the Department to ensure that the Bill reflects the current areas where reform is required.”
“<BR /> <BR />Having considered all the evidence, the Committee ultimately concluded that it would not be appropriate to proceed until it was fully satisfied that the driving instructor sector believed that the proposed date of 1 October 2026, which the Minister referenced, was realistic and achievable.”
“With your permission, Mr Speaker, it is important to consider the proposal in the context of the wider legislative package that is required to bring GDL into operation, and the Minister referenced that. <BR /> <BR />At the outset, I make it clear that the Committee supports the principle of GDL.”
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“Yet again, I thank the Member for West Belfast for giving way. We are talking about figures, and Ruth Breslin, from SERP has done a lot of work in that area as has the University of Sheffield. I will happily try to dig some of those reports out and share them with the Member. We are talking about figures such as 90% of women in that area being coerced or exploited, and there is certainly evidence of that. We heard verbal evidence from survivors about coercion and the taking of young women, getting them hooked on drugs in Northern Ireland and introducing them into that form of exploitation. We also heard of women being brought in from Brazil, Romania, Portugal and countries in Southeast Asia simply to service the demand that is inherent in our country.”
“I thank the Member for West Belfast: we have not yet found common ground on general policy areas, but he is gracious with me by at least taking my questions. Will he accept that in the case of amendment No 78, and it does not matter who you speak to, the majority of experts agree that most women who work in that field are either coerced and exploited or trafficked? I accept that a minority of women who work in that field choose to do so, and I think that the experts concur with that, but in all the evidence that I have read the majority are either coerced and exploited or trafficked to facilitate demand in our country. Will the Member accept that, and, if so, what specific issue does he have with amendment No 78?”
“Finally, I thank Jessica and Tim from CARE, who provide secretariat support. <BR /> <BR />The amendment is a necessary first step in dealing with some of the issues that I have highlighted that we can take in this place today. For those reasons and having been informed by a growing body of UK and international evidence, I support and commend amendment No 78 as a first step to ending the scourge of the existence of such platforms and the profit that they make from the exploitation of women.”
“<BR /> <BR />No one is pretending that the amendment alone will solve trafficking or prostitution in Northern Ireland. Undoubtedly, more will be required. Better services and supports are needed for many survivors, both in the process of exiting and in the stage after that. We need stronger exit pathways, better cross-border cooperation and urgent reforms at Westminster. <BR /> <BR />As well as the colleagues that I mentioned, I thank a few people who have been helpful to the APG's work. I thank Ruth Breslin from SERPI, which works out of Dublin in the South; Eleanor Lyons, who is the Independent Anti-Slavery Commissioner; and the survivors of prostitution who came to the APG and told us some harrowing things in their own words. Their evidence was incredibly powerful.”
“<BR /> <BR />I commend the work of the PSNI. Recently, I met Assistant Chief Constable (ACC) Beck and a chief superintendent. It was a useful meeting, and they have a particularly challenging task. The problem has become so prevalent that the resources that the PSNI can task to stop the criminal gangs undoubtedly need to be increased. We need to give the PSNI the tools and resources that it needs to act, gather evidence and execute successful prosecutions. The amendment gives an additional tool in the form of a new criminal sanction to the PSNI and the Public Prosecution Service, for that matter, to help them investigate and find the evidence needed to dismantle the criminal infrastructure that lies behind some of what we are talking about today.”
“Northern Ireland is not dealing with isolated acts of prostitution or with escorts in hidden corners or on dark streets. It happens behind closed doors, and, in some cases, it is organised in plain sight. Organised crime is very much behind what we see, and that happens in towns across Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />The amendment is not particularly radical. We have an opportunity to lead in the area yet again. In 2015, my DUP colleague Lord Morrow led the way with his private Member's Bill that outlawed the purchase of sex in Northern Ireland. Therefore, by passing amendment No 78, Northern Ireland can lead the way again by being the first legislature in the UK to ensure that the operation of those sites is curtailed and that the criminal infrastructure that lies behind them starts to be dismantled.”
“Evidence that has been presented to parliamentary inquiries across the UK that are similar in scope to the one that we are undertaking in the APG has identified multiple indicators of trafficking and exploitation on those websites. <BR /> <BR />Members should pause for a minute and consider what that means in practical terms.”
“We have found multiple women being advertised using similar profiles, which indicates that there are pimps who control several women in towns and cities in Northern Ireland. Our research has found the same mobile phone number being used as a contact point for multiple adverts, which shows that those women are trafficked and controlled by the same person. Many of the profiles offer exceptionally risky services, often for a low price. According to the University of Sheffield and its sexual trafficking identification matrix (STIM) indicators, that is another clear sign of exploitation. <BR /> <BR />While the APG will take time to study the evidence and data, we are content to say that exploitation and trafficking is taking place in the UK and Northern Ireland.”
“Similarly, the Independent Anti-Slavery Commissioner's report, published earlier this year, stated that multiple indicators of trafficking or exploitation are found on websites advertising escorts in the UK. <BR /> <BR />During its evidence-gathering, the APG has found similar cases of harm directly attributable to adverts in Northern Ireland. During April and May this year, researchers from CARE, assisting the all-party group, looked at each of the main platforms that advertise women in Belfast. The research will be more fully published with our report, but preliminary analysis of that data shows that indications of trafficking and exploitation are prevalent on the four main sites used to advertise women in Northern Ireland.”
“<BR /> <BR />The APG has heard evidence from survivors, academics, organisations and international experts. We have heard what has been, at times, harrowing and shocking evidence of sexual exploitation. What is clearly and immediately evident to me, as chair, is that the nature of prostitution and trafficking has changed fundamentally not just in Northern Ireland but across the world. The image that many may hold of prostitution or escorts is one of people working from the streets, but that is definitely not the reality any more. Exploitation, in most of its forms, has migrated online and become digitised, scalable, in many instances hidden and vastly more profitable. The Home Affairs Committee at Westminster concluded that websites advertising prostitution are now:”
“I thought that I had broken some convention and was going to get admonished by the Deputy Speaker, but it was just my colleague taking his seat. <BR /> <BR />The APG is taking evidence and conducting an inquiry. Studies have been prevalent across the UK and Ireland, and the APG is trying to complement those studies and ensure that the situation in Northern Ireland is fully understood. With your indulgence, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will thank, in particular, my APG deputy chair, Connie Egan, and my colleague, Brian Kingston. Both of those folk come to nearly every APG meeting. An old friend of mine once told me that God's kingdom functions on small groups of people praying; the APG functions on small numbers of people faithfully attending.”
“As chair of the all-party group on modern slavery and sexual exploitation, I thank my colleague for tabling amendment No 78, which is the one that I will speak on. I support amendment No 78 and agree with the points that Paul made. We have already heard, including from my colleague Maurice, some of the details and realities of sexual exploitation in Northern Ireland. I do not intend to repeat all of those arguments; instead, I want to touch on relevant evidence that we, as an APG, have been looking into.”
“They are the second-worst in Northern Ireland.”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. Minister, according to data from your Department, my constituency has the lowest level of DFI expenditure across the 11 council areas. The Fermanagh and Omagh District Council area, for example, receives 253% more than mine, yet the roads in my constituency, according to Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency (NISRA) data, are the second worst in Northern Ireland. Can you explain that discrepancy to me and will you, today, commit not only to re-examining how the roads budget is apportioned but to accepting a list of roads and pavements in my constituency from me, in order to see whether anything can be done about roads that are in a really bad state?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer and for outlining where we are with the early diagnosis of coeliac disease. I thank him for his commitment on the issue to try to ensure that we have the best and most expeditious diagnostic pathways. <BR /> <BR />Will the Minister commit to meeting some representatives of Coeliac UK to discuss how the issue affects sufferers in Northern Ireland?”
“These are incredibly serious crimes that we are considering, but they do occur, and when they do, victims want justice. We will stand up for the victims of crimes in that debate, even if we have to stand alone.”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. <BR /> <BR />I wrote to Mr Chris Quinn on Friday to ask him a range of questions. Do children under 16 possess an equal right to criminal justice when they are raped by boys who are under 16? What message does he believe his position, as outlined, sends to girls who are already fearful of reporting rape due to low conviction rates and traumatic processes? Given the fact that we, as a society, are struggling to deal with violence against women and girls, how can he justify a position that states that boys under 16 should not be prosecuted for rape? I am still waiting for a reply from the Children's Commissioner's office or, in fact, an acknowledgement of my email to him. Hopefully, he will clarify his comments to me.”
“The first duty of any justice system is to protect and uphold the rights of innocent victims. That principle cannot be abandoned in the debate that we are having, and the DUP will support all victims and make the case for equitable justice across Northern Ireland.”
“Had those rapes occurred in Northern Ireland, and had we adopted the Children's Commissioner's position — some parties here endorse it, while others are not far from that — those young girls would have had no access to justice, which, for me, it is simply unacceptable. <BR /> <BR />I want to be clear that every child deserves protection, support and the opportunity to turn to turn their life around. However, we must also remember another fundamental principle, which is that every victim deserves justice. When we talk about serious sexual crimes, we are not talking about youthful mistakes or minor acts of wrongdoing, but about offences that leave lifelong scars on victims. We are talking about crimes that destroy confidence and leave families devastated.”
“On Thursday of last week, I was made aware that the Children's Commissioner, Mr Chris Quinn, had endorsed the position where no young person under 16 should be prosecuted for serious crimes such as rape, murder or sexual assault. I offer full credit to David Thompson, the 'News Letter' journalist, for highlighting that position in the first place. There is a disturbing context to this. Recently, in Hampshire, two girls aged 15 and 14 were raped in separate incidents by two 14-year-old boys, and another boy aged 13 was convicted for the attack. Members may have noted in the media coverage that none of the boys was given a custodial sentence in the initial sentencing. Thankfully, the Attorney General is reviewing that case.”
“Thanks, Danny. For one wee second, I did not think that I was your friend any more, given the way you were talking about me. <BR /> <BR />The Member says that he supports inspection, but he does not support inspection enough to make sure that it happens in our schools. How important does the Member think inspection is?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I want to check that his understanding of the Bill is the same as mine. There has been a lot of chat about it banning strike action and so forth. Is his understanding the same as mine: that the Bill does not ban strike action or action short of strike but looks at a very specific area of inspections that is very important because it deals with safeguarding?”
“The way in which we do that is by having the ETI in to check procedures and policies. That is what the Bill does. It does not criminalise teachers: we have been absolutely clear about that. The Minister has compromised, whether Sinn Féin accepted that at its whim or not. We now have a slightly different Bill from the one initially talked about in the Executive. That is why I fully endorse the Bill. Teachers have nothing to fear from it. Teachers who are listening to the debate today will have been confused by some of what they have heard — I know that I have been. I stand here with the clear position that, if we are serious about child protection, about safeguarding in our schools and about making that better, we need inspection. That is what the Bill delivers.”
“Teachers are not as fearful as they once were about having the ETI in their school; in fact, I would say that most teachers probably view the ETI as being more collaborative and more supportive than it has ever been. Ultimately, its job is to support schools and make them better. <BR /> <BR />The couple of areas that I have outlined demonstrate why the Bill is so important. Ultimately, parties will have to defend whatever position they take. I have outlined my party's position, which is that we view safeguarding and child protection as the most critical thing when we drive our children to the school gate and leave them in the school environment, with teachers acting in loco parentis. Those teachers are amazing, but, as I and others have said, no profession is completely unblemished. We have to ensure that that environment is safe.”
“Danny, I obviously disagree. Kids' placements are not necessarily of relevance to what we are debating today. What is relevant is the quality of teaching, learning and safeguarding in all our schools, especially for SEN pupils. What I want and what the Minister wants is for the ETI to have the ability to help schools if they are having problems. I happily accept that, going back 10 or 15 years, inspection was punitive. I have some knowledge of that. That is certainly how teachers viewed it then, and some Members have made that point this evening. However, most people who know about education in Northern Ireland and who know teachers will say, "Actually, the ETI has changed, and inspection has changed".”
“We talk a lot about SEN in the Chamber and rightly so, because SEN pupils are some of our most vulnerable pupils. The schools that they attend are not being inspected, however. Some of them have not been inspected for quite a while. As some colleagues have mentioned, given the quality of the workforce that we have in Northern Ireland, teachers have nothing to fear. Our teachers are brilliant. As a lecturer, I was inspected several times.”
“The common theme in what you outlined was children. That is whom we are here to protect. We are here to make their lives better. Adults — voters and Members of the Assembly — can have political views on those things, but, ultimately, we are not here to protect the interests of special groups or to protect this group or that group; we are here to make sure that the lives of the children in our schools are the best that they can be. We are here to make sure that they are safe in those schools and are getting a quality education. On that, we can agree. Outside of that, it is political opinion. <BR /> <BR />The SEN code of practice, which I was talking about, states that the ETI must evaluate the effectiveness of schools' SEN policies and their adherence to the code. Action short of strike prevented the ETI from fulfilling that role.”
“Pat, you mentioned a lot of the common themes, but you are wrong.”
“In essence, clause 3 states that we believe that safeguarding and child protection are mission-critical in our schools and that the only way to ensure that they happen — I am happy to give the Floor to another Member if they have a better idea — is to make sure that ETI comes in and says, "We want to do an inspection, and that will include your safeguarding and child protection policies. We want to talk to your teachers and any students who are willing to talk to us. We want to make those procedures better".”
“The report goes on to quote the TransformED strategy:”
“We have not talked about SEN. Forgive me: some Members may have touched on it but not in any detail. I have had some correspondence on the issue, and it is worth bringing it into the debate because it applies in the same way when it comes to inspection and assuring quality in our schools, which is exactly what the Bill seeks to do. <BR /> <BR />The Audit Office report states:”
“I am happy to take that point and agree with it. They did not, but they were being asked to assess the quality of teaching and procedures. They do not give political advice or policy advice; they give recommendations. <BR /> <BR />The Minister referenced something that is straight out of the Northern Ireland Audit Office document, which states:”
“I will give the Member the Floor again. I am not sure what her question was. Apologies, Michelle.”
“That is not what we are looking at today. Use the term as much as you want, but it is not factual at all.”
“schools. <BR /> <BR />Some of you may be only pseudo listening, so I will explain it. ETI could not give assurances to parents that proper safeguarding and child protection procedures were in place in schools. Why was that? It was because it could not inspect them. Why was that? It was because they were either on action short of strike or on strike action. The best that it could do — this is not debatable; it is factual — was to go in and look at paper procedures. If inspectors wanted to talk to teachers who were on action short of strike, the unions told the teachers not to engage. That is wrong. Teachers have nothing to fear. Inspection is not punitive. It is not going after teachers. The Members on the opposite side of the House used the term "criminalisation", but, frankly, teachers are not being criminalised.”
“What I did not read out to the Member for Lagan Valley was this next part of the report, which said that ETI was:”
“<BR /> <BR />We know, however, what the Northern Ireland Audit Office has said about those things. There has been significant political debate in the Chamber today. I remind Members that the Northern Ireland Audit Office is an arm's-length body, and it is not political. It does a brilliant job of looking at specific aspects of governance in Northern Ireland and drawing conclusions on those. I read this out to the Member for Lagan Valley, but it is worth reading it out again and picking up on a few more paragraphs when we are talking about clause 3. It says:”
“We are talking about safeguarding and inspection. Essentially, we are talking about whether the inspection of safeguarding procedures and child protection procedures should happen in our schools. No ifs, no buts: should that inspection happen? <BR /> <BR />Last year, a guy called Neil Beckett was convicted of sexual assault and sexual grooming after he targeted nine schoolgirls and used his position as a welfare officer at a school in Belfast. His female victims said that the school did not do enough to prevent the abuse that that person inflicted. We do not know what impact action short of strike or strike action had on the ability of ETI to go into that school and audit its child protection measures, because — do you know what? — it did not happen. For the past number of years, as has been documented, that has not been occurring.”
“Parents, however, want it not just to be great but to be better. They want it to improve. I am sure that the Minister will touch on that in his closing remarks. <BR /> <BR />As I said, I will limit my commentary to clause 3, which contains the safeguarding aspect. Mr Burrows referenced his experience at Bangor Grammar School. For transparency, I say that I also attended Bangor Grammar School, and I knew Dr Lindsay Brown. Mr Burrows referenced historical charges, which happened a long time ago. Certainly, for me, it was a long time ago. I am not sure what child protection measures were in place at that time or what safeguarding was like in Bangor Grammar School. I should say that it is now an amazing school, and my eldest son attends it. We are talking about quite a few decades ago. However, Mr Burrows referenced it.”
“That is a very sad state of affairs if that is how the Assembly views safeguarding and child protection. <BR /> <BR />Should inspections be mandatory to make sure that standards are upheld and safeguarding procedures are underpinned? From listening to the debate, I can tell that everybody loves inspections. Members have stood up and said, "We support inspections. We think that inspections are great". I have not heard a single Member stand up and say, "I think that inspections are a bad idea". Parents will be listening to what we are saying, and parents want schools to improve. I will be the first person in Northern Ireland to say that we have amazing schools. People have gone to other places in the world and have come back to Northern Ireland because our school system is so great.”
“We are kind of crossing our fingers and saying, "Well, I kind of hope that it is going to happen, but we are not going to make it happen. We just hope that it will happen."”
“I want to clarify that, because some Members, including, I think, the Chair of the Education Committee said quite a while ago that, during action short of strike, the safeguarding inspections somehow occurred or went on or proceeded as normal. My understanding is that that is not what happened. My understanding is that, during action short of strike, inspectors were not allowed to meet designated teachers or safeguarding teams if they were following union advice and action. That is really important. I admit that some schools allowed that to occur, but that was against the advice of their union. <BR /> <BR />If we are in a situation where — I think that this is where some Members are — we are kind of hoping that safeguarding happens. We are kind of hoping that there is some auditing of child protection measures in our schools.”
“Thank you, Pat. I understand it. I am not sure that people out there in the real world will completely follow what has gone on in your party. The Members opposite have said that they have got teachers' backs, "You guys are safe with us", and so forth. What I think has happened today is that, over the weekend, you thought that you were going to be outmanoeuvred by the SDLP, which was going to oppose the Bill anyway, and you suddenly thought that you had better change things. That is just my view. <BR /> <BR />I want to get on to the Bill. I genuinely want to talk about children. There has also been some chat about whether there have been inspections during action short of strike.”
“Thank you very much, Pat. I am not sure that I am much clearer, so I will ask the question back to you. Were you not happy with the Bill initially? Did you ask for it to be amended?”
“I kind of agree. I do not agree with the principle behind it, because the Bill is absolutely right. However, what I have heard today has confused me. It has become clear that Sinn Féin definitely agreed this to get it out of the Executive. If one accepts that, which some may or may not do, one can reason with that a little. What genuinely confuses me, however, is why Sinn Féin amended it first. Why did it, in principle, agree a Bill, and then amend the Bill before agreeing to it again, before bringing it to the Assembly and then proposing to vote it down? That is a pretty fair representation of what is going on today, which begs the question: why amend it? Maybe someone in Sinn Féin will give me an answer to that; I will be happy to give the Floor to them. Why amend something that you will are going to vote down at Second Stage?”
“Over the weekend, as has been referenced, there was a media flurry around this issue. Last night, Matthew tweeted the following:”
“I feel a little bit sorry for the kids. <BR /> <BR />He is not here, but I also kind of feel sorry for the leader of the Opposition, Matthew O'Toole.”
“Like many Members, I speak to teachers weekly. They do an amazing job. Many Members have referred to teachers' workload, and they are correct. There is no one who meets teachers in Northern Ireland who would not say that the workload has increased. They would also say that the workload is more diverse than ever. Teachers have to deal with more complicated issues and problems weekly. <BR /> <BR />Undoubtedly, the most-used word so far in the debate has been "teachers". We have talked a lot about teachers. I intend to talk about children, because it is they who are actually at the heart — or should be at the heart — of what we are talking about. Maybe they have not been talked about enough because they cannot vote. Pause for a second and think about why we are here and why the Bill has been designed in the way in which it has been.”
“We have been debating the Bill for a couple of hours now, colleagues, and I feel more confused by certain positions than I did when I came into the Chamber at around 3.30 pm. The Bill is not designed to punish teachers; it is about inspection. It has four clauses, some of which we have dealt with in some detail this afternoon. It is certainly about safeguarding, and that is what I want to focus my comments on. It should certainly be about children. <BR /> <BR />I value teachers. I was a lecturer for around 20 years. Can anyone beat that? I see that Pádraig has left the Benches opposite. I know that he was a teacher. Julie was, too.”
“Does she agree that the ETI is the key organisation for ensuring child protection and safeguarding?”