Peter Martin
North Down · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Minister, the Northern Ireland Audit Office report is very critical of your Department on the topic of flood risk. You have just read out some interventions that your Department has made. The report's most substantial criticism is that your Department cannot show that its activities to build flood risk defences:”
“It also seeks to rebalance a level of government control by removing certain powers that the Department currently holds, including direction and control over appointments to board positions. That supports the case for reclassification by ONS.”
“<BR /> <BR />Members were keen to hear directly from young people, who will probably be most affected by GDL, so we consulted the Youth Assembly. The Committee was impressed by the thoughtful and constructive nature of that engagement.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am confident that the Committee will be able to engage positively and work collaboratively with the Department to ensure that the Bill reflects the current areas where reform is required.”
“<BR /> <BR />Having considered all the evidence, the Committee ultimately concluded that it would not be appropriate to proceed until it was fully satisfied that the driving instructor sector believed that the proposed date of 1 October 2026, which the Minister referenced, was realistic and achievable.”
“With your permission, Mr Speaker, it is important to consider the proposal in the context of the wider legislative package that is required to bring GDL into operation, and the Minister referenced that. <BR /> <BR />At the outset, I make it clear that the Committee supports the principle of GDL.”
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“My thoughts remain with that amazing charity and with Ryan and Max. I hope that they both recover fully from the injuries that they suffered that night in a vicious and unprovoked assault.”
“Ryan, the wider K9 team and its chair, Joanne Dorrian, know that they have my full support and the support of my party. <BR /> <BR />Recently, the Justice Minister's party colleague the Alliance MLA for North Antrim tabled an amendment to the Justice Bill that would raise the minimum age of criminal responsibility to 14, meaning that one of the boys would not even be charged with a serious offence. That is wrong. It does not support the victims of crime; in fact, it will erode confidence in the justice system. I have a son in P6 who is 10. He knows the difference between right and wrong and that actions always have consequences. <BR /> <BR />In conclusion, I make it clear to folk who wish to support Ryan and Max that a GoFundMe page has been established: if you want to donate to that, you can look it up online.”
“On Friday 27 March, Ryan Gray, a volunteer with K9 Search and Rescue, and his search dog, Max, were attacked by a group of 15 to 20 youths in Bangor. The police said the incident began after a verbal exchange, when the youths launched a vicious assault on Ryan and Max. Ryan suffered a fractured eye socket, loss of teeth and facial injuries that required hospital treatment. Max was kicked several times and left shaken. One 13-year-old boy and two 15-year-old boys were charged with ABH, which is very serious, and a 16-year-old girl was charged with affray and common assault. <BR /> <BR />I have worked with Ryan and the wider K9 team, which provided me with a fluffy K9 search dog, which sits on the desk in my office upstairs. The assault was completely unprovoked and completely unacceptable.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Will he accept that, with the way that the Bill is currently configured, the only question is this: what should the Education Minister not do — something that currently costs £21 million — in order to facilitate what is proposed?”
“I thank you, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker, for the indulgence that you have shown to me.”
“Thank you very much, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. I apologise if I have strayed — I am pretty sure that I have. I hope that I have answered the Member for West Belfast's question. I have done my best to do so. <BR /> <BR />I will conclude there. I know that the Member who has brought forward the Bill is heartfelt about its benefits — there is no doubt about that. However, it is not about whether this is a good thing to do or how good or amazing it is. The question that I have, which the Assembly and every Member should have — it is a simple question, because we know the quantum of the cost — is this: is this the best thing that we can do? Will it bring the most effectual change for the children whom we are willing to help? If there is something else that we could use that money for, we should do that. It is as simple as that.”
“Given the way in which the Bill is configured at Second Stage, we are saying that the Minister will have to find £21 million in the Education budget. The question that each individual should be asking themselves is, "Where would we find that money?". What would we not do, which we were doing beforehand — that is what an opportunity cost is — to enable the payments to be made? That is my concern. The extended schools programme is an amazing thing. Some of the additional support that we are seeing with changes around special educational needs — we are talking about resource spend —.”
“I thank the Member. That is a good question. I will do my best. I thought that I had answered it, but I may not have answered it clearly enough. If we had a near-endless supply of money, I do not doubt that this would be an effectual thing — a good thing — to do. Would it have beneficial effects? There is no doubt in my mind that it would. It is a policy that has been introduced previously. However, that is not the question that I am asking today. The question that a legislative body has to ask around these areas is whether this is the absolute best way to spend the quantum of money that we are talking about. Will it deliver the best outcomes for the people whom that quantum of money is designed to help?”
“However, notwithstanding the fact that, for over 10 years, I worked in the area of addressing educational underachievement and trying to find the best ways to support our kids so that they can thrive and succeed in Northern Ireland — issues for which I have a passion — my question is this: if we got £20 million, is this how we would spend it? Is this the answer? The Bill sponsor is nodding. I am not convinced. I do not think that it is not a noble thing to do or that it is not a good thing to do. Members opposite have already highlighted that this came in as an Executive —.”
“It is spending in one area, which means that you cannot spend in another area. You cannot spend the money on additional educational psychologists or additional occupational therapists who can go into schools. You cannot spend it on the RAISE programme, the extended schools programme or the other things that the Department does that, we all agree, are incredibly worthwhile. When the money is spent somewhere else, it cannot be spent in the original area, and that, in essence, is my question today. <BR /> <BR />If the Second Stage is agreed and the Bill goes through to Committee Stage, it will be scrutinised.”
“If the Finance Minister came to the Education Minister and gave him £20 million and asked him how he would like to spend it, the Education Minister might have some ideas, and every member of the Education Committee, perhaps every Member in the Chamber, might have some ideas as well. However, we would want to make sure that the £20 million was spent in the most effective way to have the greatest impact on the children whom we wanted to help and that it brought the best outcomes for those children. The Chamber is being asked whether holiday hunger welfare payments are the best way to spend £21 million. Will they have the greatest impact on the kids whom we want to help? If we are not sure about that, it leaves us with a problem because that is what we call the "opportunity cost".”
“I certainly agree with my colleague, and he has made the point well. I do not disagree with the Member opposite. He was absolutely right when he said that kids need to be fed. Not only is that an important thing to do but it helps children to learn. Other Members have referenced that point today, and it is what the free school meal payment is designed to do. Obviously, there is a difference between free school meal payments during term time and what we are discussing today. <BR /> <BR />I have not explored my final point, but it is about what we choose not to do in order to fund the Bill. It is about the opportunity costs. The Chair of the Education Committee strayed into the area, although he focused more on how we would look at an evidence base to see whether the policy was working.”
“I am not allowed to. You strayed into the curriculum, and you are going to get me told off.”
“You are very indulgent, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. I was doing my best to answer Pat's question.”
“It has been identified as a priority because the curriculum affects every child in Northern Ireland. No one will stand in the Chamber and say, "We do not want the best curriculum that we can have. We want something that is substandard when compared with Finland, Singapore or any other country in the world". We want the best.”
“I will always let the Deputy Chair of the Education Committee in. He is a very important person. Forgive me, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker; I will try to address his points, even if we are starting to stray. <BR /> <BR />The curriculum is really important. That has been referenced by the Member and by the Bill sponsor. The curriculum is crucial. We must have the right curriculum in Northern Ireland so that children can learn really well. I have my views on what that curriculum should look like. My party colleague, who happens to be the Education Minister, has views as well, and you probably have them, but there are lots of experts out there who have agreed on the issue. We want the right curriculum for our kids in Northern Ireland so that they learn really well, and it will cost money to do that.”
“Is this the sort of thing that, you would say, is more important or, framing it in the Bill sponsor's words, is this more of a priority than the extended schools programme?”
“Our job involves lots of economics, because it is about making the best decisions that have the most impact on those whom we are trying to help and that provide value for money. If the money is not ring-fenced by the Executive and if there is a requirement in the Bill, which is the case as it stands, that the Department of Education, regardless of whether, after next May, it is this Minister or another Minister who inhabits the post, has to find that money — the question has been asked before — what do we not do in order to fund the additional payment? Let us say that it is £21 million. How do we fund that from the Education budget? How do we fund that from the 15% of, let us call it, "disposable income" that the Minister has to hand? There are some important things within that, one of which is the extended schools programme.”
“Thank you very much, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. I will not stray outside your advice. <BR /> <BR />I will do my best to answer the Bill sponsor. I do not dispute his comments, and I have learned a new word: "fugazi". I will put that into ChatGPT later and find out what it means. I accept the 0·6% figure or the figure that he quoted for the curriculum of 0·4%. I was simply making the point that, when we look at the Education budget, we see that the amount of what we might call "disposable income" or "extraneous income" that the Minister has to spend on given projects is considerably less than the entirety of the Education budget, which stands at £2·8 billion. You are right: it is about choices. <BR /> <BR />I will finish on that point. I look at this mainly from an economics background.”
“I will give way in one wee second, Danny. I do not have the maths — I was not planning to speak today, otherwise I would have had my iPhone out to do some maths — but I can say that it is considerably more than 0·6%. I just wanted to make that point, because the statutory functions of the Department are really important. The Minister has to pay teachers — that is a statutory function. SEN is statutory. Certain things have to be done for those children and rightly so. The Department of Education faces really significant spend on salaries and SEN. That leaves considerably smaller margins for other spend, some of which is really important. I will get on to that, but I will give way to the Bill sponsor first.”
“I thank the Bill sponsor. I will pick up on that point. He made reference to the spend of £20 million being, I think, 0·6% of the Education budget. I will look across the Chamber to see whether anyone nods. OK, there is a wee bit of nodding from the far side. My understanding is that, when teachers' salaries and special educational needs spending are added together, they make up about 80% or 85% of the budget. I do not know the exact figure and am now looking at the Education Minister to see whether he is nodding, but SEN and salaries together are in the region of 80% to 85%. If we call it the "disposable income" that the Education Minister or any Minister has to do other things, it is quite a small amount. It is not 0·6% —”
“I will expand on that point, but I will give way to the Bill sponsor.”
“As this is a legislative Chamber, however, we need to work within the bounds of reality, and part of that reality is budgets. Before I took that intervention, I was simply making the case that, as we move into next year, the Education budget is £600 million short. Before we do anything, the Executive and this Education Minister have to find £600 million to run education in Northern Ireland — that will be £620 million, if we put the Bill through.”
“I thank the Member for that contribution. He is exactly right that there was, at that time, a campaign by footballer Marcus Rashford — a Manchester United footballer, I believe. For transparency, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker, at the time that that was introduced, I was a special adviser to the Education Minister who brought the measure through. It is probably best that I get that on the record. I do not necessarily disagree with what the Member said. <BR /> <BR />I will make a little progress on the main point of what I am saying. There is no question about anyone in the Chamber's wanting to end child poverty or child hunger or wanting to support our children, regardless of how they were brought into this world and what part of society they inhabit. Surely, every Member wants the best for those children.”
“I will, indeed, give way to the Deputy Chair.”
“Essentially, when we open the books for next year and the Education Minister, as with any other Minister, has to try to make his Department work effectively, providing the necessary support and the required salaries and payments, he will start off £600 million shy of what he needs. His is not the only Department that will face into that.”
“<BR /> <BR />My understanding — this is, I think, accepted to a reasonable extent by the Assembly — is that the draft Budget that the Bill sponsor's colleague the Finance Minister brought forward leaves the Education Department about £600 million short for next year. I am sure that Members understand what that means. Those are fairly technical issues.”
“No one wants to see children go hungry, whether that means their going to school hungry or their being hungry over the school holidays. No one would support that happening. <BR /> <BR />The Bill sponsor's figures for its cost come to about £21 million. The Minister has stated that that cost is recurrent. That means, in effect, that that amount of money would be spent every year and would come out of the total allocated to the Department of Education. In my earlier comments, I asked about its being ring-fenced. My understanding is that, if the Bill passes and becomes law, it will be the Education Department that will have to fund that £21 million in one way or another.”
“I thank the Bill sponsor for that response. If the Bill passes its Second Stage today, the Education Committee will look at those things. I understand the context in which he makes his points. <BR /> <BR />I will pick up on the reference that his colleague who has just left the Chamber, the Member for South Down, made about having money for war but not for education. As far as I am aware, the Education Minister and the Executive do not spend any money on war. Certainly, no recurrent or non-ring-fenced money in the Education budget heads in that direction. <BR /> <BR />There is no one in the Chamber who does not want to see an end to poverty. That has been reflected in the speeches today. Everyone, regardless of their political hue, would like to see an end to poverty in Northern Ireland.”
“I will when I have made some progress. <BR /> <BR />That would ensure that it does not come purely out of the Department of Education's budget but is instead ring-fenced by the Executive. I will give way to the Bill sponsor.”
“Madam Principal Deputy Speaker, I had not planned to speak to the Bill, but I thought that you would prefer me to say something rather than make sustained interventions. <BR /> <BR />I will pick up on the criticism that the Deputy Chair of the Education Committee made of the Minister for not answering a question. I will give the Floor back to him, because he did not answer the Minister's question, which was about whether the Bill sponsor's party would support an amendment to ring-fence the money —.”
“Does she have another prong, or are the three prongs it?”
“Does the Minister accept that an increasing number of business organisations have lost faith in her three-pronged approach? Paul McErlean, the director of Build Homes NI, said recently that it is "wholly inadequate" and went on to say:”
“As others have mentioned, Rory's success has been and will continue to be an inspiration to other young golfers. I was a young golfer once. Unfortunately, I could not pitch golf balls into a washing machine, and my career never took off as Rory's did. Through the success of Rory and others, Northern Ireland punches way above its weight in sporting excellence across the globe. Rory is an incredible ambassador for our wee country and, I know, continues to be an inspiration to young golfers. He has, as others have reflected, created an amazing legacy for himself. I hope that it will inspire other young golfers to follow in his footsteps.”
“I also offer my congratulations to Rory because back-to-back Masters wins do not come around very often. When you look at the names of other golfers who have succeeded, such as Nick Faldo, Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods, it puts his achievement into perspective. Rory is a native of my constituency. He comes from Holywood, and that is where he played golf. For anyone watching, we have some excellent golf courses in North Down, including Bangor Golf Club, Clandeboye Golf Club and Donaghadee Golf Club.”
“That is a fitting challenge for every person in the Chamber today. I encourage Members to support our amendment.”
“However, the Chamber should also be looking at what we do in the future to ensure that our most vulnerable are protected. The Minister is also wholly committed to ensuring that. He needs the money to do so, but it is up to others in the Chamber to stand with him and agree on allocating the money to ensure the future for those kids. <BR /> <BR />As I considered the future of special educational needs provision in Northern Ireland and thought about coming to the Chamber today, I remembered a quote by CS Lewis, who said:”
“I am sorry, I do not have time. I apologise to the Member. <BR /> <BR />This party is committed to that objective. The Education Minister has asked for additional funding so that he can underpin the support that is required for SEN. Other parties will have to answer for themselves on their commitment to that objective. <BR /> <BR />I echo the comments of my colleague and good friend Cheryl Brownlee, who sits on these Benches with me today. Cheryl has a child with special educational needs, and she said publicly that the summer schemes are not a luxury but a lifeline, and I wholly agree with that sentiment. We cannot change the past week for the parents of children who have special educational needs and need summer scheme provision, but I am glad that it has been restored.”
“For anyone who is watching today, the phrase "resource pressures" is Civil Service speak for the money that a Department needs to break even but has not been allocated. Of the £600 million that the Education Minister needs, one third is money that he requires for special educational needs provision. <BR /> <BR />I do not want to get into the politics of it all today; I want to look to the future and at how we underpin the entire support network for SEN, rather than deal specifically with one issue. Therefore, whilst the current difficulties with summer schemes are sorted out for this year, we need a coordinated effort to sort out the budget, not only for next year but to deal with future difficulties going forward.”
“He has not answered the question. I am happy to give the Floor back to him if he wants to answer. It is a stated fact that this Minister has requested significant additional money for children with special education needs in Northern Ireland because he views it as a priority. It is the Members opposite who have not agreed to that paper. That request is sitting there having never been tabled. <BR /> <BR />I will deal with the figures. The Department of Education's total resource pressures, based on the Minister of Finance's Budget from the Members opposite, will be about £600 million going into next year.”
“Clearly, I do not agree with the Member, but I would be happy to give way to him again if he would like to explain to me why the Education Minister's paper on getting additional resources for special educational needs has never made it on to the Executive's agenda. That is actually the responsibility — for anyone watching, I will explain how it works — of the First Minister and the deputy First Minister. Both Ministers have to agree. We are content to get additional resources into special educational needs, but the party opposite has not agreed to it. <BR /> <BR />I will give the Member the Floor.”
“However, the Budget for next year, proposed by DOF, places significant pressure on special educational needs, as we have reflected in the amendment. It is worth taking a moment to look at that in detail. The Sinn Féin Finance Minister's draft Budget, which this party has said is unacceptable, puts significant pressure on the Education Minister and particularly on special educational needs as we go into next year.”
“I thank the Member for that intervention. I agree that we have an issue with clinical provision in some of our special schools. The Minister may touch on that. That is a legitimate point. <BR /> <BR />Our amendment leaves the first half of the motion intact, because that is a legitimate expression of how many parents felt about the situation. The second half of the motion basically condemns both Ministers; it does not address the ongoing problems that we have with special educational needs and how we support our most vulnerable children. The second half of the motion, which calls for the schemes to be reintroduced, is now redundant, because the schemes are now progressing. <BR /> <BR />Our amendment looks at the wider issue of special educational needs. It is a stated Executive priority, and rightly so.”
“In November of last year, the special schools' strategic leadership group raised clear and legitimate issues concerning aspects of the 2025 schemes that needed, it felt, to be addressed. As we all know, healthcare for special schools is complex and is ultimately within the vires of the Department of Health. <BR /> <BR />I am glad, as, I am sure, are many of the parents of the children affected — many of them are in the Gallery today — that the Education and Health Ministers, along with Health departmental officials, were able to quickly find a solution and to implement it to restore provision, which we have done for this year. <BR /> <BR />This is all a piece of history, but I wish to look to the future and to spend a few minutes speaking about our amendment.”
“We also know that the complexity of special educational needs has changed over the past number of years and that the number of children who attend such schools has risen significantly. It is acknowledged that many of the children who would be attending the summer schools have increasingly complex needs. The Education Authority made it clear that it was prepared to deliver the summer schemes this year provided that the Department of Health could supply the necessary clinical support. It is important to note that special schools' principals have, in the past, shown significant commitment to running schemes, but they have also flagged concerns about the current operating model for clinical cover.”
“Let me say this plainly: the uncertainty and distress that many families experienced should not have happened. However, we cannot change the past, and I will come back to that. <BR /> <BR />For the reasons that I have outlined, we have accepted the first half of the Alliance motion. We have no doubt in our minds that the temporary cancellation had a devastating effect, and there is no point in debating that fact in the Chamber today. <BR /> <BR />It will be helpful to outline the facts that led to the decision, some of which Members have commented on. Initially, the EA highlighted the fact that the level of risk associated with running SEN summer schemes related to the safety of pupils and that that was a significant concern.”
“First and most important, I acknowledge the worry, stress and disruption that the initial cancellation of summer schemes caused parents of children with special educational needs in Northern Ireland. I know — other Members have reflected on this — that many parents and families view summer schemes as critical respite at a time of year when it is very much needed. I have visited some of the schemes and witnessed at first hand the social interaction that the children enjoy, their personal development and the sheer fun that they have at the schemes. <BR /> <BR />The sudden prospect, when the initial announcement came out, of losing that support was, understandably, overwhelming for many of the parents. I publicly acknowledge that today.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer and declare an interest, as my wife is a pharmacist. Can the Minister state the extent of the concerns that medicine wholesalers have expressed to his Department about the ability of community pharmacies to pay their wholesaler bills?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Will the Member acknowledge that the independent review of education also called for more support for controlled schools in Northern Ireland?”
“I thank the Member for giving way, given that his time is precious. He talked about binaries. Binaries are not very much comfort to people in Iranian jails or to people who have been killed by the Islamic Republic of Iran.”