Kenneth Gibson
No Party Affiliation · Scotland
“The next item of business is decision time. There are eight questions to be put as a result of today’s business. I remind members that, if the amendment in the name of Amanda Bland is agreed to, the amendment in the name of Stephen Kerr will fall.”
“The next item of business is consideration of two Parliamentary Bureau motions. I ask Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, to move motions S7M-00492, on committee membership, and S7M-00505, on membership of the Congress of Local and Regional Authorities of the Council of Europe.”
“The next item of business is general question time. Many members wish to ask supplementary questions, so, in order to get in as many members as possible, I prefer short and succinct questions, with answers to match. Artificial Intelligence Data Centres (Planning Guidance) 1.”
“There are seven questions to be put as a result of today’s business. I remind members that, if the amendment in the name of Tom Arthur is agreed to, the amendments in the names of Daniel Johnson, Murdo Fraser and Willie Rennie will fall.”
“The next item of business is consideration of revised business motion S7M-00480, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, revising this week’s business programme. Any member who wishes to speak to the motion should press their request-to-speak button.”
“Speak through the chair, please. Tim Eagle: The Scottish Conservatives recognise that a strong economy is not some optional extra but the foundation on which everything else depends. I actually agree with Reform, and others, that it is all about the economy.”
The complete record
Every one of 828 lines we hold for Kenneth Gibson, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 8 of 17.
“Across eastern Europe, traumatised survivors were routinely met with discrimination and violence. On 4 July 1946, in Kielce, 42 Jewish survivors were slaughtered by civilians, police and soldiers, following a blood libel accusation. Among the dead were women and children. Nine victims were shot, two were bayoneted and the remainder were beaten to death. Joseph Feingold, a Holocaust survivor who endured Nazi forced labour and a Soviet gulag, was released in 1946. He returned home on the day of the pogrom to find his home town overcome by mob violence. Feingold was beaten unconscious and left for dead. Reflecting later, he described the moment as a realisation that war against the Jews had not ended. Hatred of the Jews is an ideology that seems eternal. It can be found among religious fanatics, atheists, capitalists and communists.”
“Belzec’s other survivor, Rudolf Reder, who was born in Debica in Austria-Hungary in 1881 and was deported with his wife and children to Belzec in August 1942, escaped in November of that year. He was aged 61 and was aided in his escape by Ukrainian women. His children had, however, been murdered, as had his wife. Following the Soviet takeover of Poland, Reder testified in January 1946 before the Institute of National Remembrance. A major memorial at Belzec was not opened until 2004, nearly sixty years after that. For many Holocaust survivors, returning home meant renewed persecution. In post-war Poland, where only one in 10 of the 3.3 million in the Jewish community had survived, between 650 and 2,000 Jews were murdered, often while attempting to reclaim their homes and rebuild their lives.”
“In five other purpose-built extermination camps—Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka, Chelmno and Majdanek—Jews were cruelly murdered and their bodies were burned. Belzec underscores a critical challenge for generational remembrance, as its historical significance is obscured by the efficiency of its killing process. It was operational from 17 March 1942 and, by 31 December of that year, 434,508 Jews had been murdered, primarily in gas chambers. No one knows how many had died by the time the camp closed in June 1943. With only two known survivors—one was murdered soon after the war ended—Belzec was relegated to the margins of public memory, despite its central role.”
“Yet a particularly virulent strain of Jew hatred emerged—Nazism. By the 1940s, widespread acceptance of Jews after centuries of exclusion, scapegoating and marginalisation transformed an underlying but virulent antisemitism into a brutal convergence of bureaucratic efficiency and moral indifference. Auschwitz-Birkenau occupies a central place in Holocaust remembrance, which is supported by extensive documentation and survivor testimony. Its immense death toll of approximately 1.1 million people, 90 per cent of whom were Jews, and its gas chambers, crematoria and barracks render its crimes both visible and symbolically representative of the horror that is the Holocaust. However, genocide took place across Nazi- occupied Europe, with the Einsatzgruppen wiping out entire communities.”
“Old Christians remained suspicious of the conversos, and in 1495 and 1497 many of Santa Fe’s descendants were accused of corrupted Judaism and burned at the stake. Expulsion of Spain’s remaining Jews took place in 1492, and Portugal followed two years later. France had already done so in 1394; they were readmitted only in 1791, after the French revolution. Despite centuries of persecution, massacre and stigma, Jewish communities somehow endured. In Belmonte, Portugal, the Jewish community was forcibly converted in 1497. In 1974, the community of 300 re-emerged, revealing that it had secretly remained Jewish and had been practising endogamy for five long centuries. Post-enlightenment, Europe became more tolerant. From Sweden to Switzerland, laws against Jews were gradually abolished, and many assimilated.”
“In Spain, where persecution had been periodic, 4,000 Jews were slaughtered in Seville on 6 June 1391, and across Siberia, mobs murdered thousands more, annihilating long-standing communities. Faced with death or forced baptism, large numbers of Jews converted to Christianity, creating a substantial population of new Christians, who were commonly known as conversos. They were viewed with suspicion by old Christians, who questioned their religious sincerity. In 1413, Geronimo de Santa Fe, a converso backed by the church, led a 20-month one-sided theological debate, the disputation of Tortosa, to convert Jews by discrediting their beliefs and through intimidation. He was successful, and many converted.”
“The massacre of 150 Jews at York in 1190 was followed 100 years later by the expulsion of all English Jews. Oliver Cromwell permitted their return in 1656. Scotland never had anti-Jewish laws, but few Jews chose to settle here. In 1096, the first crusade massacred Jewish communities in the Rhineland. When black death struck in the 1340s, killing one third or more of Europe’s population, Jews were scapegoated and accused of poisoning wells. In 1349, authorities in Strasbourg arrested the city’s entire Jewish population and, on St Valentine’s day, 2,000 were publicly killed. Survivors were expelled and their property was confiscated. Similar pogroms occurred across Europe, including in Basel, Cologne, Erfurt and Mainz.”
“In medieval Europe, antisemitism was increasingly articulated through theology, law and popular culture. The belief that Jews were collectively responsible for Christ’s death, despite the inconvenience of the crucifixion being ordered by Judea’s Roman governor Pontius Pilate, was widely enforced, legitimising exclusion and violence as religiously sanctioned acts. Jews were prohibited from land ownership, restricted to marginal employment and segregated legally and socially. Between the 12th and 15th centuries, more than 150 documented blood libel accusations falsely alleged that Jews murdered Christians for ritual use. In 1965, during Vatican II, that was formally repudiated and the Pope removed those saints from the pantheon that was associated with it.”
“Viewed across generations, it reveals itself as neither accidental nor episodic, but endemic. Antisemitism can be traced to antiquity, when Jewish differences in law, custom and faith in one God were recast as misanthropy, separatism and threat. In Hellenistic and Roman societies, that difference attracted civic suspicion, which embedded in the political imagination and laid the groundwork for persecution, then and later. In 136 AD, the crushing of the Bar Kokhba revolt resulted in catastrophic Jewish losses, famine, enslavement and expulsion from what is now Israel and Palestine. Jewish communities in exile became increasingly exposed to repression, including murder and forced conversion, from seventh century Visigoth Spain to the Beta Israel in 20th century Ethiopia.”
“It is an honour to open the debate and build on the excellent contributions in debates in recent years that were led by Paul O’Kane and Jackson Carlaw, which makes it clear that the issue transcends party lines. Holocaust memorial day is held on the anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz on 27 January 1945 and is often mislabelled as a remembrance of a single dark chapter in human history in which the hopes, dreams and lives of 6 million Jewish men, women and children were brutally extinguished. An incalculable amount of creativity, innovation and talent in all areas of human achievement died with them—an aberrant, unparalleled crime severed from time. This year’s theme—bridging generations—unsettles that illusion. When antisemitism—bluntly, Jew hatred—is confined to isolated events, it appears exceptional and anomalous.”
“That takes their funding to almost £25 million, which is shared across the five national performing companies. Scottish Opera will receive £8.65 million in this year’s budget, Scottish Ballet will receive £4.7 million, and the National Theatre of Scotland will receive £4.5 million. For context, Creative Scotland’s multiyear funding for 2026-27 is £74 million, which is shared among 263 organisations. The largest amount of the funding that goes to performing arts companies through that route is allocated to Dundee Rep and Scottish Dance Theatre, which receive £2.86 million, while the Royal Lyceum Theatre receives £1.7 million and the Citizens Theatre receives £1.6 million.”
“Can the cabinet secretary advise why, at a time of steady, above-inflation growth in Scotland’s cultural budget, the five national performing companies are still expected to operate on more or less a flat cash settlement that is similar to that of 15 years ago? What impact does he believe that that has on the staff of those companies, who are expected to survive and perform to an excellent standard, often peripatetically, on modest salaries? Angus Robertson: The budget that is before the Parliament sets out that there will be further increases to our national performing companies over the period of the spending review. Last year, they shared an uplift of £1 million, which followed an uplift of £700,000 in the previous year. That is a 9.4 per cent uplift since 2023-24.”
“Amendment 76 disagreed to. Section 7—Duty to facilitate implementation of National Park Plans Amendment 77 moved—[Sarah Boyack]. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 77 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division. The vote is closed.”
“For Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Ind) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (Ind) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Reform) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 52, Against 58, Abstentions 0.”
“Amendment 32 agreed to. Section 6—Definition of biodiversity Amendments 74 and 75 moved—[Sarah Boyack]—and agreed to. After section 6 Amendment 76 moved—[Ross Greer]. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 76 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“For Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Ind) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) Against Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (Ind) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Reform) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 84, Against 25, Abstentions 0.”
“Amendment 71 agreed to. Amendment 72 moved—[Sarah Boyack]—and agreed to. After section 5A Amendment 73 moved—[Sarah Boyack]—and agreed to. Amendment 32 moved—[Mark Ruskell]. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 32 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“For Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (Ind) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Reform) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) Against Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Ind) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 86, Against 23 , Abstentions 0.”
“Amendment 48 agreed to. Amendment 71 moved—[Tim Eagle]. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 71 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I could not connect. I would have voted yes. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you, Mr Gibson. I will make sure that that is recorded. For Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Ind) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) Against Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Ind) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (Ind) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Reform) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 84, Against 25, Abstentions 0.”
“SPICe suggested that “Across committees, there is a shared expectation that accountability should extend beyond explanations of spend to include clarity on impact and delivery.” From the Economy and Fair Work Committee’s call for clearer performance targets to the Education, Children and Young People Committee’s request for the Government to set out its priorities for the college sector and match resources to fund those priorities, it is clear that, through the budget process, committees are robustly holding the Government to account on how spending is achieving outcomes. Further, committees are seeking greater transparency of budgetary information and evidence that data and analysis are driving prioritisation and decision making while supporting effective parliamentary scrutiny.”
“Building on its work to support the debate, the Scottish Parliament information centre has helpfully produced a briefing that identifies common themes across committee pre-budget reports, which I am sure many members will draw on in their contributions. I particularly look forward to hearing about what has worked well and not so well in influencing Government budgetary decisions and about the impact of a parliamentary session-long approach to scrutiny.”
“I am delighted to open today’s debate on behalf of the Finance and Public Administration Committee. The debate provides an opportunity to discuss the committee’s pre-budget reports and how they have influenced the Scottish budget for 2026-27. I thank our clerking team and all the other committees for their hard work. The FPA committee’s recent inquiry into the Scottish budget process recommended piloting new approaches to deliver a more joined-up and interactive debate. We have therefore set a broad theme of fiscal sustainability for today’s debate, recognising the pressures on the Scottish budget and individual portfolio areas.”
“If NatureScot were to receive any form of proposal for lynx reintroduction, it would be put through the NSRF for thorough discussion and consideration. We do not intend to reintroduce lynx or any large carnivores in the foreseeable future, because of the potential for negative impacts on farms and rural communities.”
“Lynx would help to naturally control excessive deer populations—something that Scotland is in dire need of. Austria, France, Germany, Italy, Poland, Slovenia and Switzerland all successfully reintroduced lynx decades ago and reaped the ecological benefits. Why does the minister believe that it cannot work here? Jim Fairlie: We recognise the role that reintroductions of native species can play in nature restoration. As I have just said, a proposed reintroduction would require serious and significant consultation. NatureScot currently chairs the national species reintroduction forum, which is made up of a range of organisations from conservation, land use, public and non- governmental organisation sectors.”
“This winter, we have also been able to support the funding to maintain the dedicated service on the secondary route to Arran via Lochranza. The Deputy Presiding Officer: We will need shorter answers, even in the absence of lodged questions. Agriculture and Rural Communities (Scotland) Act 2024 (Publication of Controlling Interests of Payees) 3.”
“It is very frustrating that the community of Arran is facing a further delay to the return of the MV Caledonian Isles and the MV Glen Sannox. Ministers and officials continue to engage with CalMac to ensure that all options to expedite the repairs are being considered. The MV Isle of Arran is expected to be redeployed to its original timetable on the Oban to Craignure service when repairs to the MV Alfred lifts are completed. The redeployment of vessels is particularly challenging due to the annual overhaul schedule at this time of year, but CalMac is committed to ensuring that the lifeline services are maintained to our islands. I am glad to advise that Alfred’s current charter has been extended to the end of February and that it will remain on the Troon to Brodick route until the regular vessels resume service.”
“CalMac’s original plan—to have a single vessel, the MV Alfred, service Arran while both the MV Caledonian Isles and the MV Glen Sannox are unavailable—was inadequate. Although the situation has improved since CalMac was forced to deploy the MV Isle of Arran, the return to service of the MV Glen Sannox and the MV Caledonian Isles has been delayed yet again. Will the minister press CalMac to ensure that the MV Isle of Arran stays on the route until Arran’s primary vessels return and have managed several consecutive days of reliably serving the people and communities of Arran? Jim Fairlie: I absolutely take on board the point made by Kenneth Gibson, who has been a fierce advocate for his communities in regard to ferries.”
“On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I could not connect to the voting system. I would have voted no. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you, Mr Gibson. I will ensure that that vote is recorded.”
“Reliability means regular maintenance, and regular maintenance is to be part of the new contract. However, I understand Mr Gibson’s concerns regarding the Cumbrae service. The regular maintenance outwith the annual overhaul schedule is intended to reduce unplanned disruption and overruns and improve overall service reliability over the piece. CalMac is at the beginning of the process. I have been clear that it must work closely with local communities to ensure that any proposals are fully discussed. I will meet CalMac on 28 January to discuss a range of matters including its proposals to introduce scheduled maintenance windows. I reiterate that, at this time, no final decision has been taken in relation to its operations on Cumbrae. I will raise the issue at that meeting on 28 January. Municipally Owned Energy Sources 8.”
“Transport Scotland knows that, under the new contract, on which CalMac is supposedly accountable to communities, CalMac proposes to impose completely unnecessary cuts on the Largs to Cumbrae ferry service over the busy summer period, allegedly to provide additional maintenance that has for decades been undertaken during the 10 hours in every 24 when the ferry does not sail. The cabinet secretary previously stopped CalMac from reducing its services to Cumbrae by a quarter, which was very much welcomed. Working with Transport Scotland and CalMac, will she ensure that the latest proposed timetable changes, which could only be detrimental to the island’s economy and which islanders vehemently oppose, are ditched forthwith? Fiona Hyslop: The member has raised the issue previously.”
“Despite facing significant demands on our capital budget, from inflationary pressures, economic uncertainty, and the energy and cost crises, we are using all the levers that are at our disposal to top up our capital funding through ScotWind. We will continue to prioritise capital funding to eliminate child poverty, grasp the opportunities of net zero, boost economic growth through our infrastructure plans, and maintain services. We can do that only with the funding that is available to us, which has been severely hampered by”
“Can the cabinet secretary advise what impact high levels of post-Covid inflation, coupled with years and years of cuts to Scotland’s capital allocation by the Tories at Westminster—the architects of the high speed 2 fiasco, who are soon to be outdone by Labour who will cut our capital allocation to 2023 levels over the next five years—has had on A9 dualling and a host of other capital projects, ranging from new housing to hospitals and harbours? Fiona Hyslop: The previous Conservative UK Government did not inflation-proof its capital budget. At the time, we forecast that that would have resulted in a nearly 10 per cent real-terms cut in our capital funding over the medium term. We should also remember that the previous UK Government stripped £6 billion out of our budget.”
“The progress on the negotiations between Caledonian Maritime Assets Ltd and Peel Ports Group, which the Cabinet Secretary for Transport set out last week, is welcome, and I note that both parties are committed to confirming details of the potential purchase as quickly as possible. Our capital spending review makes provision to progress the potential port purchase and improvements. I am sure that Kenneth Gibson will welcome that, too.”
“I warmly welcome the 10 per cent increase in college sector funding, which is a tremendous boost for our young people and the economy, and one that the Finance and Public Administration Committee called for. The cabinet secretary has listened. Will she confirm that the necessary funding is in place not only to purchase but to redevelop Ardrossan harbour, given that the capital allocation for Scotland’s ferry services has rocketed by 18 per cent—from £182.6 million to £215.5 million—since the autumn budget revisions? Shona Robison: I acknowledge Kenneth Gibson’s welcome for the additional college funding. On his substantive question, the Scottish Government is committed to Ardrossan being the mainland harbour for CalMac ferry services to Arran.”
“As previously mentioned, I urge the minister to clarify in his closing remarks his intentions regarding the sensitivity analysis that the committee has requested. 15:17”
“The minister told us that the Scottish Government “will not know the full scale of remediation that is required until all the assessments are done”.—[Official Report, Finance and Public Administration Committee, 18 November 2025; c 53.] The committee finds it concerning that more accurate cost estimates are not yet available. The Government’s response commits it to reviewing that as part of wider work to consider impacts in relation to levy rate setting. The Scottish Government’s response is helpful in further informing this stage 1 debate. Nevertheless, the committee believes that introducing the levy carries significant risk and that policy design has not been sufficiently focused on developing a good, well-structured and sustainable levy.”
“That is the amount in “Barnett consequentials that the Scottish Government might have received had the UK Government England-only levy been extended to Scotland.” Evidence that the committee took suggests that that figure is optimistic, given uncertainties around the potential impacts of, and behaviours arising from, the levy. We asked that the figure be reviewed once the sensitivity analysis that is recommended in our report has been carried out. Concerns were expressed that the data set that the Government used to calculate the costs of cladding remediation is not as robust as it should be and that the financial data in the FM uses “estimates of estimates”.”
“Our recommendations include asking the Government to further consider adding a restriction to ensure that the bill pertains exclusively to cladding remediation, which I am pleased that the minister agreed to. A sunset clause should be added to the bill, which would provide an opportunity after 15 years to robustly review how the levy is operating and for Parliament to decide whether it should continue. Although the minister is not in favour of a sunset clause, he said that he will consider including a clear date for review by strengthening the bill’s reporting provisions. We heard a few minutes ago that that date will be every three years. The bill’s financial memorandum suggests that the levy seeks to raise £30 million a year as one of the revenue streams for the Scottish cladding remediation programme.”
“We were told in evidence that building construction quality scandals have tended to occur every 10 to 15 years and that the broad wording in the bill could lead to a permanent levy that funds the remediation of any building safety issue that arises. Witnesses said that the consultation processes focused exclusively on cladding remediation rather than broader safety matters. Certainly, that should be the case. The committee sees merit in those arguments and in recommendations that are aimed at ensuring that the levy does not continue indefinitely without proper checks and balances. The proposals should also provide much-needed reassurance to the industry that the levy will not become a permanent house-building tax.”
“In evidence, the minister announced that levy implementation would be deferred by one year, to 1 April 2028, and advised that indicative levy rates would be set out in June this year, as he touched on earlier today. The committee welcomes the decision to delay the levy’s implementation and believes that the new timescale provides the housing industry with sufficient time to prepare for its introduction. Section 13 of the bill requires the proceeds of the levy to be used “for the purposes of improving the safety of persons in or about buildings in Scotland.” However, the Scottish ministers’ current intention is for the levy to support the cladding remediation programme.”
“The committee asked the Scottish Government to consider, as part of the sensitivity analysis that we requested, the potential effect of the levy on the delivery of much-needed affordable housing across Scotland. It would be helpful if the minister could confirm in closing whether he accepts that recommendation, as his response on that has been, again, unclear. The Government originally planned to introduce the levy from 1 April 2027, just over a year after the bill would pass if agreed to by Parliament. In evidence, there were concerns that that timeline would not provide house builders with sufficient time to properly prepare for the levy’s implementation, particularly as key details such as levy rates and transitional arrangements would be set out only in secondary legislation.”
“Although committee members have concerns about the fragility of the build-to-rent sector, on balance we felt that such an exclusion would significantly limit the levy’s tax base and agreed that the levy should apply to that sector. The bill exempts any housing for which construction funding has been provided under the Scottish Government’s affordable housing supply programme. The committee heard a mix of views regarding that exemption, with some witnesses arguing that removing affordable housing from the tax base places a disproportionate burden on private homes. Others, such as local authorities, suggest that the exemption does not go far enough and should be extended to cover all affordable housing developments, not just those that are funded through the Scottish Government’s programme.”
“That was a key recommendation underpinning the committee’s findings, and we urge the minister to clarify in his closing speech that that much-needed piece of work will be undertaken, as requested. The bill would exempt from the levy all residential developments on Scotland’s islands, and there is broad support for that measure. The committee also believes that there is a strong case to extend the exemption to remote rural areas, and we asked the Government to undertake work on developing an appropriate definition of and exemption for those remote rural areas. The Government now plans to extend the exemption to areas that currently receive 100 per cent relief on non-domestic rates. Some witnesses also made the case for exempting the build-to-rent sector from the levy—a matter that the minister touched on earlier.”
“The committee recommended that the Scottish Government undertake a sensitivity analysis to assess in more detail the levy’s potential impact on the housing market, particularly on rural sites and on small and medium-sized developers. We asked for the results of that analysis to be published in time to inform Government decisions on setting levy rates and, where applicable, any reliefs through secondary legislation. We also sought an updated business regulatory impact assessment, alongside the subordinate legislation, to set out an explanation of how the Government has taken those findings into account. Although the Scottish Government has committed to providing an updated BRIA, it is unclear whether our recommendation to carry out a sensitivity analysis has been accepted.”
“They highlighted significant impacts on rural development, small to medium-sized enterprises, the build-to-rent sector and their ability to build affordable homes. I am pleased that the minister has today gone some way towards addressing the concerns at least of SMEs. Those who are supportive of the levy consider that it is a fiscal necessity for the remediation of cladding defects, as having a levy would be better than placing the full costs of remediation on affected home owners or paying for them through general taxation. On balance, the committee was persuaded by evidence that the levy would have a macroeconomic effect on the Scottish housing market, although more data is needed to identify exact impacts.”
“Based on the evidence received, we made no recommendation in our stage 1 report on whether Parliament should support the general principles of the bill. We have asked the Scottish Government to respond favourably to our recommendations regarding the provisions and impacts of the bill in order to inform today’s debate. I will therefore focus on some of the committee’s key considerations and conclusions, together with the Scottish Government’s response, which, of course, has changed even today. In evidence, many witnesses told us that they oppose a building safety levy—particularly house builders and their representative bodies, who suggested that it would negatively affect Scotland’s housing market.”
“I am pleased to speak on behalf of the Finance and Public Administration Committee, which was the lead committee for stage 1 scrutiny of the Building Safety Levy (Scotland) Bill. I refer members to my entry in the register of members’ interests. The committee’s call for views on the bill was held between 26 June and 15 August 2025. We received 39 submissions, including those from the house-building, land and property sectors; local authorities; and taxation and law experts. The committee is grateful to those who took the time to share their views, and to our clerking team for their excellent work in advising members and producing our report. We held three evidence sessions during October and November.”
“To ask the Scottish Government when it last discussed the purchase of Ardrossan harbour with Caledonian Maritime Assets Ltd. (S6O- 05343)”
“The Deputy Presiding Officer: I advise Mr Gibson and other members that we have members online who are participating in the debate. I call one of them now—Karen Adam. 14:27”