Dr Andrew Murrison
MP for South West Wiltshire · Conservative · United Kingdom
“It is good to hear that the Government plan to replenish the dwindling stocks of Patriot missiles in Ukraine, which I suspect it will need this winter. However, Patriot is low volume and high cost. What the Ukrainians need is high volume and low cost.”
“Currently, the Royal Navy has an offshore patrol vessel permanently stationed in the Falkland Islands, but given the threat that is being faced and our need to demonstrate resolve—the sort of thing that, sadly, we did not demonstrate in the early 1980s, which led to miscalculation—will the Minister consider speaking to her MOD colleagues…”
“Since the Foreign Secretary is not going to get the co-operation, fulsome or otherwise, of the Israeli state in differentiating goods and services made in the settlements from those that are assembled, repackaged, produced and grown in Israel itself, how is he going to distinguish the one from the other?”
“The Government insisted on applying the social time preference rate to the disastrous Chagos deal to make an appalling deal look slightly better.”
“Will the First Secretary of State’s exercise in delivering democracy and local accountability and empowering local people include a look at large organisations that cannot be described as governmental or as quangos but that nevertheless exist firmly within the public domain, are established by statute, serve the public and are big employe…”
“I congratulate the Government on the hiring of Alistair Burt—he is a good hire and will do great things for some of these most complex of cases—but does the Minister agree that many of these cases are extremely difficult and exceptionally traumatic, and that it is far better to prevent them happening in the first place?”
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“It is important to say that the vast majority of veterans are fit and well, and they leave the armed forces fit and well. We do no service to anybody if we suggest otherwise, because young men and women—and particularly their parents—who are considering whether the armed forces is a good career will be influenced by that. In truth, the vast majority of people leaving the armed forces, as we all do eventually, do so in good health mentally and physically. Under Sir Simon Wessely, the King’s Centre for Military Health Research has produced interesting figures on the incidence of mental health problems among regulars and reservists. Those figures bear close attention and I commend them to all right hon. and hon. Members. In particular, I am interested in his longitudinal study of armed forces personnel.”
“I look forward to that being rolled out. The hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire made a thoughtful speech on behalf of the Opposition, notwithstanding the pop at the spare room subsidy. She said, in terms, that she is not in favour of amending section 75. I suspect—I hope that I am not putting words in her mouth—that she would prefer to pursue that matter through the practical measures that I have outlined. My hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile) spoke very well. I know that he is particularly concerned about mental health issues. I very much appreciated his remarks, which were, as ever, well informed and authoritative. His remarks reminded me of some figures on the prevalence of post-traumatic stress disorder that were cited by the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley.”
“I am concerned that Northern Ireland is not sharing in that story. There are issues with accessing the grant funding associated with community covenants. I think that I understand some of the issues behind that. However, 38 Brigade has been designing a scheme through which that funding can be accessed. I look forward to the process being a little easier to use and to Northern Ireland being a full subscriber to that successful scheme, which is very much appreciated by the principal recipients. The issue of armed forces champions was covered well by my hon. Friend the Minister of State. With the new super-councils, there is an opportunity for elected members and officials to take part through the reserve forces and cadets associations. In particular, there is an opportunity for councillors to be champions in their localities.”
“The offer has been made and the door is open on that. I thoroughly recommend that the Northern Ireland Executive take a full and active part in that group. It does work. As I said in my intervention on the hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle), it is an important part of our efforts to ensure that, wherever possible, we deal with issues as they arise in a way that does not disadvantage the men and women of our armed forces. If the Northern Ireland Executive are not represented on the group, it is difficult to see how the Northern Irish perspective will be reflected at that stage in proceedings. On the lack of community covenants, the community covenants scheme has been extremely successful, by popular consent. I think that most Members of the House agree on that.”
“The right hon. Gentleman will forgive me if I commend his rhetorical point, while stating that my concern is a practical one. I want to make things right for the men and women of our armed forces and our veterans. In defence of section 75, it ensures that there is no discrimination against members of the armed forces. I think that the Equality Commission would point that out. Having reflected on his remarks and those of his colleagues, I would much prefer to address this matter in the practical, workmanlike way that has been used for some time, which has shown a fair measure of success. However, I accept his points; they are well made and I understand precisely where he is coming from. The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley made reference to the involvement of the Northern Ireland Executive on the covenant reference group.”
“Before I address the points raised in the right hon. Gentleman’s speech, I assure the House that this Government take the threat posed by terrorists extremely seriously. Northern Ireland-related terrorism is a tier 1 risk in the national security strategy, meaning that it is of the highest priority to this Government, as it was to the Government in which the right hon. Gentleman served. Five years after the Massereene shootings, the threat level remains at “severe”. However, progress has been made, as I am sure many of the hon. Members here will attest. As a result of the sterling and often unsung work of the Police Service of Northern Ireland and MI5, working in close co-operation with police in the Republic of Ireland and others, lives are undoubtedly saved and the ill intent of violent criminals thwarted or mitigated.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I commend the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) on securing this important debate. I begin by offering my sincere condolences to the families of both Sapper Patrick Azimkar and Sapper Mark Quinsey. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland met Patrick’s parents recently. I know that they are taking a close interest in today’s proceedings, and that my right hon. Friend was deeply moved by the account that they gave. Their personal strength and dignity at this difficult time is remarkable. Five years on, I am sure that the pain that they have suffered will not be erased. It is a particularly cruel irony that two fine young men should be struck down on home soil just as they were preparing to serve their country in Helmand.”
“That is clearly the firm intent of both the Westminster Government and the Northern Ireland Executive. Violent terrorists, wherever they are, must be called to account. I know that all the agencies that I have mentioned, and others, are bent on ensuring that such wicked individuals are brought to account and face the full rigour of the law, wherever they are.”
“Given that they have faced trial, one must assume that they are not. However, I cannot tell the hon. Lady whether those names appear on the list of 200 people issued with such letters. Given that they have faced trial, it seems unlikely to me. Before I come to the burden of my response to the right hon. Gentleman’s points—”
“Furthermore, non-jury trials have the advantage of a written judgment explaining the reasons for conviction or acquittal and are an effective way of securing a fair trial for all parties and mitigating the risk of intimidation or subversion of the judicial process. However, the current non-jury trial provisions are due to expire in July 2015, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland will review the current provisions in the coming months. The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the support being provided to the families—”
“What we have in Northern Ireland is a system that allows for non-jury trials in specific circumstances where it is deemed necessary to secure a fair trial. The decision is not taken lightly, and it is made by the Director of Public Prosecutions in Northern Ireland based on the facts of the case in question. That was the case with the trial of those accused in relation to the Massereene shootings. Although there is rightly a general presumption in favour of a jury trial, the non-jury system is generally recognised as removing the risk of perverse verdicts by reason of intimidation or bias.”
“In light of that, it would not be appropriate for me to comment on either the judicial decision or the process, and “Erskine May” specifically discourages me from doing so, but I too remain disappointed and dismayed that no one has yet been made accountable for those appalling crimes. I want convictions, and very few in Northern Ireland want terrorists to get away with their barbarity. It is cause for regret that although Northern Ireland has moved on, its public face is still marred by its association with violence. I will turn briefly to the use of non-jury trials in Northern Ireland, an important point raised by the right hon. Gentleman in his speech. As he knows, there is now no system of Diplock courts in Northern Ireland, as they were abolished in 2007.”
“Furthermore, as a result of the judgment by Justice Deeny in the second trial, both the PSNI and Forensic Science NI conducted a review to examine the issues raised. I am assured that all the recommendations contained in the reviews have been implemented. I am also aware of the concerns raised by the Azimkar family about the trials, re-trial and acquittal in the case, but I suspect that the right hon. Gentleman, as a lawyer, will agree with the proposition that judicial independence is fundamental to criminal justice. Judges must be free to act without pressure, threat or interference.”
“Justice is devolved, and with it the PSNI and Forensic Science Northern Ireland. However, I know that the PSNI continues to investigate the murders of both men at Massereene barracks, and the cases are still open. Both the PSNI and this Government share the families’ frustration that no one has yet been brought to book for that heinous attack. It is my sincere hope and expectation that justice will ultimately be brought to bear in this case. I cannot comment on the specific concerns raised in connection with the investigation and how it was conducted or discuss specific concerns about forensics, as it could affect any future investigation. However, it is my understanding that the senior investigating officer tasked to the case has met with Patrick Azimkar’s parents to discuss their concerns in detail.”
“In 2013, the director of personnel services for the Army judged that as a result of the enhanced security measures, the closure of the barracks, the two PSNI investigations and the passage of time, a service inquiry, whose purpose would be to learn lessons and not to apportion blame, would not add materially, a view endorsed by the Adjutant-General and noted by the then Minister of State for the Armed Forces. I understand that the families have been invited to meet to discuss the reasons behind the Army’s decision. I feel that the families may find it useful to have that meeting, and the offer remains open to them. The right hon. Gentleman referred to how the investigation of the Massereene shootings was carried out. I emphasise that I cannot comment authoritatively on matters devolved to the Northern Ireland Executive.”
“Where required, security infrastructure improvements have also been made to barracks in Northern Ireland. Although the Army originally intended to hold a service inquiry to examine events leading up to the incident, it was quite properly put on hold pending criminal investigations, following which it was decided that as a result of the enhanced security measures that had been put in place, no further lessons of consequence could be learned. However, in accordance with normal practice, a learning account exercise was undertaken. It recommended a number of further security measures, such as arming the NISGS with rifles. An assurance inspection was carried out in June 2012 at Massereene, which was deemed satisfactory. The barracks were then sold in 2013 to Randox Laboratories Ltd, which I believe is relevant in this case.”
“Security measures at Massereene barracks on the night of the incident were set and implemented in accordance with the threat level pertaining to the Army at that time. At the time of the murders of Sapper Azimkar and Sapper Quinsey, those guarding the barracks carried pistols. I will return to that point in a minute. Security guidance for personnel visiting Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland has been reviewed since the incident; there has also been a security review at all establishments in Northern Ireland, as the right hon. Gentleman would expect. It has led to the introduction of a number of measures in order to match the increased sector-specific threat assessment following the attack, including the introduction of long-barrelled weapons for the NISGS.”
“However, responsibility for the armed forces is not devolved, so I will start by saying that the Government take the safety of military personnel very seriously indeed. Security measures for members of the armed forces are made and set in accordance with a specific threat level relating to them, which is kept under regular review. In Northern Ireland, armed guarding and security is undertaken by the Northern Ireland Security Guard Service, which consists of Ministry of Defence employees specifically trained for the job. That is similar to guarding provision in the rest of the UK, and it is not accurate to say that the use of civilian MOD employees results in an inferior service to what would be provided by soldiers.”
“If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I have only a few minutes to answer the right hon. Gentleman’s points, so I would like to crack on. It must be understood that those who continue to favour violence and terrorism in Northern Ireland are few in number. Those individuals are acting in defiance of the clear will of the people of Ireland, both north and south, and holding democracy, decency and the rule of law in contempt. Turning to the important issue of barracks security, many of the points that the right hon. Gentleman raised in his speech are the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Executive under the devolved settlement. It would not be appropriate for me to comment on areas for which I do not have direct responsibility.”
“When the previous Government set up the tribunal in 1998 to investigate the tragic events of 30 January 1972, no one could have anticipated that it would take 12 years to complete and cost more than £191 million. The inquiry produced the definitive account of the tragic events of that day, the value of which is very clear.”
“Notwithstanding my remarks about the value of the inquiry, the Government have been clear that although each case will be considered on its merits, we should indeed resist further costly, open-ended inquiries. I note that the Inquiries Act 2005 will help in that regard.”
“Yes, I can only say that the Saville inquiry was set up under the previous Administration, under rules that existed at that time, and that Lord Saville was given free rein—rightly—in his independent inquiry. The hon. Gentleman is right to say that, so many years after this began, the costs are still coming in. Nevertheless, the value of the Saville inquiry is clear, and we need to understand that.”
“The hon. Lady is absolutely right that a long-term peaceful settlement relies entirely on co-operation between the parties. The Northern Ireland Office has done, and will continue to do, everything in its power to bring the parties together so that we can ensure a peaceful and prosperous future for the people of Northern Ireland.”
“My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has had a number of discussions with the First Minister, Deputy First Minister and Northern Ireland Minister for Education on this issue. Shared education featured prominently at the recent meeting of the Prime Minister, Secretary of State, First Minister and Deputy First Minister. Through the capital borrowing provisions in the economic pact, the Government have supported a number of initiatives to promote shared education, including the Lisanelly project in Omagh. I look forward to visiting Lisanelly shortly. [Interruption.]”
“My hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that it is important that we move towards shared and integrated education where the parents wish that that should happen. He will know from the pact, and from the update that is to be published shortly, that £100 million of additional borrowing has been made available as part of that pact for shared education and shared housing, both of which will be of help.”
“Through the noise I think I just about made that out, Mr Speaker. I am sure that Hansard will record it accurately and that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will take note of it for her next meeting with the Minister for Education.”
“Tackling youth unemployment remains a critical issue, but specific measures to address it in Northern Ireland are the responsibility of the Executive. The Government are reducing the largest structural deficit in UK peacetime history, and that, more than anything, will help deliver a sustainable economic recovery and so directly assist young people to get into employment.”
“I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that. She will of course have seen today’s figures, which show that although youth unemployment in Northern Ireland is 20.4%—that is too high—it has dropped by 2.1% over the quarter. I am sure she will warmly welcome both that and the drop by 1% to 6.7% in the overall level of unemployment in Northern Ireland—the 18th successive drop in the claimant count. I hope she warmly welcomes that, as right hon. and hon. Members from across the House certainly will.”
“The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. We need to work at school level and to build the number of apprenticeships in Northern Ireland to ensure that the figure to which I have referred, which remains too high—albeit fairly good in comparison with many other countries in Europe—comes down dramatically.”
“The Northern Ireland Office is committed to assisting in the delivery of the Government’s programme for the first world war centenary. I pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) for his work on the Prime Minister’s advisory group. The Department is also co-ordinating closely with the Irish Government on the centenary and the wider decade of commemorations in the island of Ireland.”
“I very much welcome the move of my hon. Friend’s local authority in that respect. It is absolutely right. There is great potential over this centenary period for local authorities to mark appropriately the contribution made by local people. That goes for Northern Ireland as it does for the rest of the country.”
“In particular, we will underscore transatlantic unity through a commitment to defence spending and practical security sector support for NATO’s partners and friends.”
“Let me begin by paying tribute to the hon. Gentleman’s constituents and other shipbuilders on the Clyde for their tremendous achievement in creating HMS Queen Elizabeth. The Government have three clear priorities for the NATO summit in Wales. First, we will mark NATO’s achievements in Afghanistan, recognise the sacrifices that it has made, and draft the next chapter in our enduring support for the Afghan people. Secondly, we will send Russia the clear message that NATO has the necessary capabilities and intent to provide for the collective security of the alliance by means including the deterrence of further Russian aggression. Thirdly, those capabilities will also contribute to addressing the numerous challenges that emanate from an unstable world in NATO’s neighbourhood and further afield.”
“Let us be clear: this is not an enlargement summit. However, at a recent meeting, NATO Foreign Affairs Ministers determined that Georgia should be encouraged and given every support that it needs in its aspirations. They also considered other aspirants to NATO, and similar programmes have been mapped for them.”
“My hon. Friend is tempting me, but, in resisting his proposition, let me suggest to him ever so gently that our intent is to encourage other partner nations to step up to the plate and make their fair contribution. If we are to enjoy the insurance policy, we must pay the premium. Too many of our partners in this endeavour have yet to spend a proper proportion of their GNP on defence, and that must be our priority.”
“We are, of course, keeping the spectrum that we need. I am very pleased that the hon. Lady welcomes today’s announcement, which is a result of prudent management of the defence budget early in the current Parliament. Let me also gently point out to her that this country has been independently assessed as being No. 1 in respect of preparedness for a cyber attack. Most of that is due to close co-operation between the Government and the commercial sector, which is vital in preparing this country to face down a possible cyber attack.”
“Article 5 stands. It is very clear, and any potential aggressor needs to fully understand the implications of it. My hon. Friend mentions Ukraine and, of course, we have been clear that the solution to Ukraine is primarily not military, but economic and commercial, and has to do with energy security, and that is where we are putting our efforts.”
“The Government’s priority remains the delivery of the outcomes of the 2010 SDSR which was launched in May 2010 and published in October that year. The next review will of course be after the general election, and therefore its direction will be a matter for the next Government. The MOD, alongside other Government Departments, is engaged in early preparatory work that will feed this as part of a Cabinet Office-led process.”
“I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s question. Reserve forces were mentioned in response to an earlier question and cyber-capability is one of those niche areas in which reserves will be able to bring something to the piece. This is a difficult and complex area and as we move forward into a different defence environment, we must think carefully about the new niche capabilities that we need.”
“Today’s announcement comes from proper financial prudence and the proper management of a budget, something which the previous Labour Administration so signally failed to do. If I may say so, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State deserves a great deal of credit for bringing our defence budget back into balance, which is why the Prime Minister is able to announce £1.1 billion of investment. It is a pity that the Labour party does not welcome that a little more fully.”
“Oh dear, oh dear. The hon. Gentleman is inhabiting a parallel universe. The Labour party left a £34 billion black hole in 2010, and it has taken some tough decisions to bring us to where we are today. Today saw the announcement of £1.1 billion of spending and a further £160 billion over a 10-year period. Where would we have been had the Labour party still been in power four years on?”
“Public debate on defence matters and Britain’s place in the world is always welcome and the Ministry of Defence encourages this through its frequent engagement with Parliament. We also routinely engage with the service community, academics, think-tanks and other stakeholders in the course of policy formulation and I would expect this to accelerate in advance of the formal Cabinet Office-led cross-Government SDSR.”
“The precise questions to be asked and the nature of the asking are a matter for the next Government, since this review will take place after the general election. Of course, both parties, of which one is likely to form the next Government, are represented in the Chamber today and I have no doubt that they are listening to what my hon. Friend has to say.”
“I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question. As he knows—we have corresponded on the matter—discussions with the local authority are ongoing. Our intention is to ensure that the site has a use that accords with our need for disposals, but in a way that the local community will appreciate. I believe that we will end up in that position before very long.”
“The corporation’s stated intention is to bring the nation together in order to create a national conversation about the great war. Well, it is hitting the spot, and has viewer figures and feedback to prove not only the success of its programming, but the sheer scale of public interest in the centenary.”
“There is nothing jingoistic or triumphalist in the view that this country has a tradition of reluctant, sober and purposeful military intervention as a last resort on the part of oppressed people, particularly in continental Europe, and where the well-being and liberty of her own citizens is threatened. The men and women we will celebrate on Armed Forces day in Stirling and across the country this weekend uphold that proud tradition. Most people’s experience of the centenary will be through broadcast and social media, and the BBC is playing a central role in that in its best Reithian tradition. I am not always the Beeb’s greatest fan, but I have been bowled over by the quality and scope of its TV and radio offerings, which constitute the biggest and most ambitious pan-BBC season ever undertaken.”
“Like most Members present, I suspect that I would have supported Herbert Asquith in the summer of 1914, but it would have been through a veil of ignorance that obscured the full horror of what was about to be unleashed, not least from Asquith himself, whose brilliant son Raymond was killed two years later on the Somme and is listed No. 7 on the Palace of Westminster’s own village war memorial at the top of Westminster Hall, between Archdale and Balfour. In my view, Britain’s entry into the great war fulfilled the Augustinian precepts for a just war, and we should be grateful that our predecessors in uniform and on the home front ultimately triumphed against the Kaiser—a militaristic aggressor, general disturber of the peace and, in 1914, surely Europe’s public enemy No. 1.”
“Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis), who will speak for the Opposition, agrees with that because he told me last week that he was about to speak about the great war to the well-respected Labour History Group. I took the precaution of securing a copy of his speech, and I hope I will not embarrass or disadvantage him too much by saying what a very good speech it is. He is right to say that politicians probably should not do history, but I am sure he would be the first to say that we should all have an opinion on such an important matter. The Prime Minister has an opinion, I have mine—fortunately for me, it is somewhat similar to his—you, Madam Deputy Speaker, will have your opinion, and each right hon. and hon. Member in this most opinionated of places will have theirs. Perhaps I may put my cards on the table.”
“The guiding lights are remembrance, youth and education, with the Government creating a framework for a national conversation about the war within which people can explore its causes, conduct and consequences for themselves. Linked to that, the public will not have an official narrative foisted on them. We should not confuse the role of historians and pedagogues with that of politicians. The job of government is to spark the national conversation, not dictate its terms. Historians have a responsibility to rigorously and dispassionately examine the facts, contest the evidence, and offer interpretation. Through open challenge and debate, the credibility of that interpretation is tested, and we glimpse the truth. I know that the hon.”
“From the luminaries seeking to catch your eye, Madam Deputy Speaker, I look forward to further such debate today. This debate is well timed since the 100th anniversary of the Archduke’s assassination this weekend falls on Armed Forces day, when right hon. and hon. Members will celebrate the men and women of today’s armed forces. I am delighted that this year that celebration will be centred on the great and historic city of Stirling. I underscore “celebration” to contrast with commemoration, and let it be understood that the great war is cause for the latter, and assuredly not cause for the former. The Government pegged out the centenary in 2012 when the Prime Minister announced the UK’s approach in October that year at the Imperial War museum.”