Dr Andrew Murrison
MP for South West Wiltshire · Conservative · United Kingdom
“It is good to hear that the Government plan to replenish the dwindling stocks of Patriot missiles in Ukraine, which I suspect it will need this winter. However, Patriot is low volume and high cost. What the Ukrainians need is high volume and low cost.”
“Currently, the Royal Navy has an offshore patrol vessel permanently stationed in the Falkland Islands, but given the threat that is being faced and our need to demonstrate resolve—the sort of thing that, sadly, we did not demonstrate in the early 1980s, which led to miscalculation—will the Minister consider speaking to her MOD colleagues…”
“Since the Foreign Secretary is not going to get the co-operation, fulsome or otherwise, of the Israeli state in differentiating goods and services made in the settlements from those that are assembled, repackaged, produced and grown in Israel itself, how is he going to distinguish the one from the other?”
“The Government insisted on applying the social time preference rate to the disastrous Chagos deal to make an appalling deal look slightly better.”
“Will the First Secretary of State’s exercise in delivering democracy and local accountability and empowering local people include a look at large organisations that cannot be described as governmental or as quangos but that nevertheless exist firmly within the public domain, are established by statute, serve the public and are big employe…”
“I congratulate the Government on the hiring of Alistair Burt—he is a good hire and will do great things for some of these most complex of cases—but does the Minister agree that many of these cases are extremely difficult and exceptionally traumatic, and that it is far better to prevent them happening in the first place?”
The complete record
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“It is sometimes surprising what one picks up while waiting for the next business. I listened carefully to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming), and read the letter printed in yesterday’s Hansard and studied it carefully. Of course the motion is correct, and the matter should be considered properly, but it surely relates to what is said in this House. We must be free to discuss things in the House without fear or favour, but that does not relieve us of our responsibility to be extremely careful in what we say outside this place. I have to say from years of bitter experience that the Liberal Democrats are particularly adept at putting out material of a doubtful nature. This case might serve as a lesson to them that they should be more circumspect.”
“In no way can the right hon. Gentleman interpret any chuntering that he might inadvertently have heard from Conservative Front Benchers as criticism of anybody’s ideology. For his information, we were simply saying that we could be spared the history lesson, once again.”
“I wonder what a constituent who wrote to me a couple of days ago would say in response to the Secretary of State’s remarks. My constituent said that he was a major employer in our part of the county and was facing a critical situation with regard to maintaining production through having an interrupted gas supply. He was faced with a huge daily cost through having to switch to oil to maintain energy and heating to the plant, and he said that that was not sustainable for such a business. How many businesses, compared with businesses in France or Germany, for example, were having the sort of interrupted supply that my constituent describes?”
“I am grateful to the veterans Minister, the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones), for our meeting before Christmas to discuss body armour. I know that he appreciates—presumably his colleague does as well—the capabilities and limitations of body armour. The United States increasingly relies on aerial reconnaissance to detect improvised explosive devices, which, despite personal protective kit, kill more soldiers than anything else in Afghanistan. Is the different approach to force protection down to the Minister’s failure to get the US to share technology or the withholding of funds for equipment, which was discussed over the weekend in connection with the then Defence Secretary, Chancellor and Prime Minister?”
“On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. At defence questions today, the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, the hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford (Mr. Davies), to whom I have given notice of the point of order, asserted that my oral supplementary question on body armour was libellous. Clearly, it could not have been. The Under-Secretary was given an opportunity at five o’clock this afternoon to clarify his remarks, but he has not done so. I seek your advice on chapter 18 of “Erskine May”, page 441, which proscribes what it calls “Charges of uttering a deliberate falsehood”, an error that, however unwittingly, the Under-Secretary appears to have made in his somewhat eccentric performance from the Dispatch Box today.”
“In 2002, a golden jubilee medal was struck for the armed forces and other uniformed services. The qualification period for it was five years before 2002. If similar criteria were used for the diamond jubilee medal, those serving between 2002 and 2007 would be disfranchised. Paradoxically, that is a period in which our armed forces have been engaged in two major theatres of war. In setting his criteria—a difficult task—will the Minister bear those people in mind to ensure that their contribution and service to Her Majesty the Queen are properly recognised?”
“Does the hon. Gentleman agree that what is important is the quality of the work done by hon. Members? The report makes some useful comments along those lines, and on how quality might be improved. In the event of MPs’ quality of work improving, especially in holding the Government to account, does the hon. Gentleman agree that we could seriously consider reducing the number of MPs, perhaps bringing us more in line with the American legislature that he cites?”
“Time is very precious, and the hon. Gentleman is right to say that the Government must be given time to get their programme through so that they can fulfil the manifesto on which they have been elected. None the less, does he not agree that there has been a huge waste of time at the behest of this Government, particularly in relation to so-called topical debates, which have simply become a vehicle for the Government to bring forward matters that are obliging to them on a political level, rather than to deliver things of real topicality? Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that that is a matter for the House rather than the Government if we are to continue with topical debates?”
“Will the hon. Gentleman add to his list of fine Chairpeople of Select Committees Dr. Ian Gibson, the former Member of Parliament for Norwich, North, who was a very distinguished Chairman of the Select Committee on Science and Technology, on which I served? Of course, that Committee came to a sticky end, due chiefly, I think, to the efforts of that gentleman in trying to propagate the best interests of science and technology in this country, which was sometimes uncomfortable for the Government.”
“The hon. Lady is being extremely generous in giving way and taking interventions. I think that she has probably hit the nail on the head, because surely the problem is that we do not have an adequate scientific basis on which to make such judgments. The fact that in November the Home Secretary had to effect something of a U-turn on DNA suggests that he does not have that evidence either. We have no way of judging whether the Scottish system, which is a far more liberal system than the one in England, is better or worse than the English system, which we are debating today. So, does she not agree that we need to have the evidence base before we start making policy? Unfortunately, we seem to have got it the wrong way round.”
“I am fascinated to know what the discretion is based on. Do the police feel that the person might have been involved in a crime before and that they need to check up on them, or are they making a value judgment about the likelihood that the person will commit a crime in future? It seems odd that there is no guidance at all. Surely it is a matter for the Home Secretary. If it is his intention to have a database against which suspected future felons can be checked, that is surely a matter for the Home Office and not for individual police forces and chief constables acting on discretion, which does not appear to be based on anything.”
“The Chancellor has announced increased funding for current operations, but after the increased costs of the redundancy of kit and the uplift in troops announced by the Prime Minister earlier this month, what will be left for the repair and replacement of our inadequate helicopter fleet, which is putting at risk the lives of our servicemen?”
“The Leader of the House used the Personal Care at Home Bill to deflect the very reasonable request made by the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath). Does she not share my outrage at the finding of the Care Quality Commission’s report, published today, into the state of some of our care homes and the fact that thousands of elderly and frail people are left in truly squalid conditions? Does she not think it should be a priority to debate this specific issue in Government time?”
“One part of the compact to which the Minister refers is the European defence-technological industrial base. Will he accept that our country has more defence exports and capability than other European nations and that we are therefore especially at risk of job losses if this goes wrong? Will he further accept that, on procurement, we should deal far more with those countries with which we operate militarily, which means overwhelmingly the United States, and not the nation states of the European Union? Will he therefore take a sceptical view of this element of the compact, which serves to do down job prospects in this country and our defence needs?”
“Perhaps the Minister would engage with those points, rather than making silly party political points.”
“My question is somewhat different. I see that the Minister has come to the end of his polemic. Will he say why he has not mentioned the European Defence Agency, European security and defence policy, or the EU external affairs set-up? Baroness Ashton is apparently heading the External Action Service, but she does not have a clue either, because she said in her speech a few days ago to the European Parliament that it would be a “huge challenge”, a “one-stop shop” and a “unique selling point”—in other words, a whole load of waffle. She does not have the first idea what the organisation that she is meant to be heading is meant to be doing. This comes at a time when the EU is meant to be taking the lead in all sorts of theatres in which our troops are engaged.”
“A little while ago, the Conservatives asked the Minister or his predecessor what the composition of the EU diplomatic corps—the EAS—would be. We wanted to know in particular which defence attachés would form part of it. Of course, we were particularly interested in British co-optees. Can the Minister enlighten us about that now that the Lisbon treaty has passed into law?”
“Does my hon. Friend share my concern that 56 non-police bodies in this country have access to the DNA database? Does he not see a common thread running between that and the access that local government now has to people’s individual liberties following the introduction, and misuse of, the anti-terrorism legislation?”
“The Minister briefly mentioned electric cars—indeed, the Prime Minister mentioned them at the G8 in 2008, when he said that the UK should be at the forefront of the electric car revolution. However, with the exception of the efforts by the Mayor of London in the capital, very little appears to have been done, while our competitors are streets ahead, even gas-guzzling America, which has increased its total of electric cars by 27 per cent. on average since 1992. What is the Minister going to do about it?”
“Will the Leader of the House encourage her colleague the Defence Secretary to come to the House and make a statement on the release yesterday of the second board of inquiry report into the tragic death of Captain James Philippson in Afghanistan in 2006? She may recall that the Defence Secretary made certain allegations about Major Bristow in connection with the death of Captain Philippson, which he will no doubt want to correct, particularly as the second board of inquiry and the coroner’s report suggested that equipment was implicated.”
“Can the Secretary of State therefore explain what Lord Lipsey meant when he said that yesterday’s announcement on long-term care was like “an admiral firing an Exocet into his own flagship”?”
“Does the hon. Gentleman agree that price has to be important, because we are talking about public bodies? One reason we have price inflation is because the consumer—the bulk of those purchasing foodstuffs in this country—is unable to differentiate between products that are produced to our own high welfare standards and those that are produced elsewhere to a standard that falls far short of that. Would it not be best if we were able to give consumers proper choice? If that happened, the competitive disadvantage of our own producers would be, to some extent, erased and one would hope that prices would fall as a result, generating a win-win situation for both public sector bodies and animal welfare.”
“Last week’s U-turn leaves unfinished business, which the Secretary of State ducked during Wednesday’s debate about the TA. His silence on in-year cuts to the Army cadets and the Officer Training Corps, leaked in his Department’s 12 October memo, was deafening. Does he not recognise that penny-pinching in relation to the cadets puts high-quality TA and regular recruitment at risk? What effect does he think that that will have downstream on our ability to support current and future operations?”
“What timeline exists for the Cottam review implementation team? When will the detailed single-service analysis required by General Cottam and accepted by Ministers be reported to the House? Let me gently remind the Minister of the fate of the last Government who tried to short-change the militia. Let me also express the hope that he will prove equal to the task of regaining the trust of the men and women of the Territorial Army, who have been so badly served over the past fortnight.”
“I hope that the Minister will answer the points so comprehensively put by hon. Members. Let me add a few of my own. Will he comment on the Territorial Army civil contingencies reaction force, which was launched in 2002 with great fanfare, but which was never funded? Is it safe to assume from the Secretary of State’s prevarication when challenged by my hon. Friend the Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox) on 28 April that that tasking is now defunct? Will the Minister elaborate on the remarks made in April about the use of niche reservist skills and support for stabilisation operations and the Department for International Development? Will he also say what funding transfer will take place to permit such employment, a point that was ducked in the response to my hon. Friend on 28 April?”
“Davies), who is also an ex-Territorial, made an excellent contribution. He emphasised how much training fosters cohesion, and he was right to do so. My hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (Mr. Gray) engaged in typically fighting talk. He mentioned that he was a veteran of the Honourable Artillery Company, and he rightly highlighted its antiquity. May I gently point out to him that the Royal Navy was founded by King Alfred in the 9th century? My hon. Friend praised augmentees versus formed units. That is a debate for another day, but as an augmentee, I have a great deal of sympathy with what he said. My hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow (Mr. Dunne) also talked about the one Army concept. He rightly mentioned Operation Tosca, which I fear is often forgotten, but which is very important in the context of the Territorial Army.”
“Big state-on-state conflicts are inevitably the domain of irregulars. In presenting Territorials as second-class soldiers, Ministers are recklessly discounting unforeseen generic conflict or catastrophic civil contingency. May I remind Ministers that the Government’s first priority is the defence of the United Kingdom? Important though a successful outcome of Operation Herrick undoubtedly is, nothing should divert us from that. My hon. Friend the Member for Norwich, North (Chloe Smith) made an excellent speech. She drew attention to A Company Third Royal Anglian, which is about to deploy, and we wish it well. She spoke powerfully about the cheese-paring that is so demoralising to both part-time and full-time troops. It also demoralises me. My hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (David T.C.”
“It is worth reminding ourselves of the central proposition, with a capital P, given in the report: “Defence will offer the challenge and reward which attracts people to volunteer, and undertakes to train and support them throughout their Service, including when mobilised and recuperating.” The report asserts in recommendation 3, which let us remember was accepted by the Government, that “Training is pivotal to the Proposition.” Indeed, the Secretary of State endorsed that at the Dispatch Box on 28 April. How is it that the Government considered driving a coach and horses through a blueprint for the reserves that they signed up to just six months ago? The latest wobble was the result of the Government’s stated desire to focus all our efforts on Afghanistan, but expeditionary warfare has historically been the province of regular armies.”
“As we have heard, the note of 12 October says that TA trained strength was predicted to fall from 20,000 to 18,000 by April 2010, putting at risk the TA’s ability to deliver 700 to 800 soldiers for Operation Herrick from 2012 onwards. How could Ministers even contemplate such a thing? Although last night’s spectacular U-turn is welcome, much irreparable damage will have been done. I expect that the Minister of State will have received sackloads of similar protests from Territorials and those who support them, not least from among his constituents in Harlow. We have certainly received such protests, but unfortunately time does not allow me to read them out, much as I would like to. In April, the then Secretary of State endorsed each of the seven strategic recommendations in General Cottam’s report on the strategic review of reserves.”
“The deployed costs will be lower too, given superannuation and the fact that in practice reservists do not have access to many of the regulars’ benefits. The calculation has also been done by our allies, who, unlike us, have acted on it. One quarter of Britain’s total strategic forces is provided by the reserves. In the US, Canada and Australia, the figures are 53, 42 and 41 per cent. respectively. Volunteer reservists, for example, make up 18 per cent. of trained strength in the UK, compared with at least 25 per cent. among our principal allies, yet this cost-effective force is set to decline even further, both in raw numbers and as a proportion of our overall strength.”
“Ministers have told us that regulars are now being recruited to strength. They asserted that this triumph prompted the cuts that have caused so much heartache. The implications are quite staggering. They are saying that financial balance at the MOD has up until now assumed an under-strength Regular Army at a time when we are heavily engaged in conflict in Afghanistan. However, the Opposition try to be helpful when we can, so let us see whether we can help Ministers out of the financial conundrum that they are left to struggle with after the Government’s U-turn. Against their regular counterparts, Territorials are as cheap as chips. The National Audit Office has pointed out that non-deployed TA soldiers cost £10,000 a year, against £55,000 for a regular.”
“The October Public Accounts Committee report on support to high-intensity operations noted that training for regulars for contingent operations was entering what was referred to as “hibernation” to fund deployment-related training—“hibernation” is a horrible term, but it appears to have crept into the military lexicography in recent years. The PAC expressed the fear that we would not be “able to regenerate such capabilities…after hibernation.” We might be able to tuck up regulars in a warm box, with plenty of straw, and wake them up in the spring, but Territorial soldiers do not “hibernate”. Without training, they will go and find something else to do, and they will never look back. Why has it taken two weeks of muddle for Ministers to accept something that, on the Conservative Benches at least, was blindingly obvious?”
“On 14 October, the Prime Minister, when questioned on the TA cuts contained in the 12 October briefing note, gave every appearance of not having a clue what was going on. On Monday, we were then treated to a grudging one-night-a-month concession costing £2.5 million before the final climbdown on the TA, but not on the rest of the leaked cuts, including—this is the context of today’s debate—those to the OTC and Army cadets. That deeply worrying episode suggests two things. The first is that the Government simply did not understand the impact that the cuts might have had on the TA, and the second is that all rational thought has gone from the MOD ministerial corridor in the last days of this Administration.”
“He pointed out what is obviously right—that the reversal of the Government’s position was the result of pressure from all directions. He also emphasised the importance of the one Army concept and talked about the damage to morale that the threat to funding causes, with particular reference to military bands and the unique circumstances and contribution of the men and women of Northern Ireland. The offending in-year savings measures emerged in a Headquarters Land Forces letter dated 12 October. We should bear in mind that despite the largesse that emerged last night, the leaked cuts to the officer training corps, cadet forces, Army recruiting, capital work on soldiers’ accommodation and service schools endure. I hope that the Minister will touch on those matters when he responds.”
“The reasons are very complex and have a great deal to do with the fact that regulars come back and are still part of a unit, whereas very often Territorials—in particular, augmentees—are not, and so are especially at risk. It is important that we look after them. He also pointed out rather poignantly that on Remembrance Sunday we will be remembering reservists and regulars equally. Again, he used that comment to demonstrate the importance of the one Army concept applying in reality. I should add that there is a naval equivalent—the concept of being all of one company. The hon. Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Dodds) commended the Government on reversing their position. I think that he was very generous in his remarks.”
“Employers will reason, “Well, if the Government do not hold reservists in the esteem that they should, why should we go to the effort of sparing them and sustaining real cost in many cases?” That is an important point to make, and I hope that Ministers will send out the clear message to employers who might be tempted to think along those lines that, in fact, Territorials are an essential part of our military capability. I also hope that they will do what they can to repair any damage that might have been done by what has happened over the past fortnight or so. My hon. Friend also talked about reservists’ mental health. It is important to reflect that Territorials in particular are at risk from mental health problems attributable to service.”
“He also talked about the one Army concept being badly dented by the past few days and hoped that Ministers would do what they can to restore the confidence that the Territorials have in his Government, which has been so seriously damaged. My hon. Friend the Member for East Devon (Mr. Swire) raised the important point about employers, who will have looked at what has happened over the past few days and wondered whether they were right to be helpful to those employees who are Territorials or reservists.”
“Brazier) has been especially strenuous in his support for them and for command opportunities for people in the TA. We are grateful to him for that, and he is, of course, absolutely right. It is difficult to serve in a formed unit if those involved do not train together, as I know full well. My hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater feared that the events of the past few days would cause lasting damage, and I think that we are all agreed, to a varying degree, that there will be a residue from how this has played out over the past four weeks or so. In a typically impassioned contribution, the hon. Member for Chorley (Mr. Hoyle) talked about the lessons of the past not being learned, and if that is the case it is a great pity—although the circumstances of today are very different to those that applied in the 1990s.”
“He saw the paw prints of accountants over the past couple of weeks and he said, rightly, that those who know the price of everything often know the value of nothing. He doubted that there would be victory in Afghanistan, and by that I think that he meant victory in the classic sense. He thought that more resources should be given to our military and, in particular, to our reserve forces, and that accountants should be put in their place. There are plenty of accountants in this House who would probably disagree. My hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater (Mr. Liddell-Grainger) is an ex-Territorial. He spoke extremely well about training and operating as one Army, and in favour of formed units, which come up in debate a lot in connection with the TA. We appreciate their importance, and my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr.”
“There is an almost institutional tendency for the top brass to recommend savings from reservists or part-timers. Territorials are caught in a sort of pincer movement between the generals and the accountants, with the budgeteers knowing full well that cuts to the TA produce immediate savings, while cuts to the regulars do not. I fear that Ministers have been badly advised throughout this, and it is a pity that they took the advice that they were being offered. The hon. Member for Stockton, North (Frank Cook) was typically eloquent, but he is not in his place, so I shall not spend too much time praising him. He is a veteran of five parliamentary tours of Afghanistan and spoke passionately in support of the reserves and in favour of the one Army concept.”
“Words are cheap, and I fear that Ministers’ rhetoric has not necessarily been matched by their actions over the past two weeks. The hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Willie Rennie) wondered how the Secretary of State had got himself into such a mess. The hon. Gentleman was also uncharacteristically churlish about our motion, which my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Howarth) and I hastily crafted late last night when the Minister effected his U-turn. I did not see the Liberal Democrats in the Table Office, and it would of course have been open to them to have tabled an amendment. As a regular and a reservist, I have seen just how easy it is to plunder the territorial, whether that be the TA, the special constabulary or the retained fire service.”
“We have had an extremely good debate, with 10 speeches from Back Benchers. Most of them have been concise and to the point, and we must be grateful for that brevity. It was a debate of high quality—one speaker from the Democratic Unionist party, two Labour and seven Conservative speakers, but no Liberal Democrat Back Benchers. I declare my interest, as entered in the register, as a medical officer in the Royal Naval Reserve. I also wish to express some sadness that so much grief could have been caused by an attempt to squeeze just £17.5 million from the Territorial Army. Ministers enthuse over the so-called one Army concept, and we have heard a lot about that this evening, as well as talk of reservists being twice citizens.”
“Does the hon. Gentleman accept the principle that justice can be means-tested? It seems that the tribunal will have to grapple with that. If that principle is accepted, what on earth will the Government say to those who do not make the cut?”
“Does the Minister accept that not all sustainable technologies are equal? Does she agree that when we come to subsidise and support various forms of technology, we need to be discriminating if we are to maximise our impact? In particular, will she look again at onshore wind, which is causing a lot of grief to many of our constituents? Offshore wind, which has far more of a proven track record, is more likely to make a real contribution to our commitments.”
“As a member of the reserve forces, may I point out that thousands of my colleagues have served in Iraq and Afghanistan and some have given their lives, so training is not an optional extra? Will the Leader of the House ask the Defence Secretary to ensure that when he comes to the House this afternoon, he comes prepared to explain the difference between the strategic review of reserves, which the Government accepted in full in April, and the cuts we heard about at the weekend?”
“Does the Secretary of State understand that such hibernation of skills—of the sort that the Public Accounts Committee’s report on support for high-intensity operations highlighted—may be accommodated in the regular forces, although the impact on our generic war-fighting capability would be severe enough, but cannot be accommodated in the reserve forces? Reserves will simply walk: training is what they do, and it holds them in. Does he not understand that this decision will be a huge blow to morale, and that reserve forces, on whom we depend so much, are likely simply to fade away?”
“Does my hon. Friend agree that the Government completely missed the point about registration? The value of registration is that it encourages prevention, because dentists develop long-term relationships with their patients, which incentivises good practice and oral hygiene and inevitably leads to better mouths with better teeth in them. That produces less onerous work for dentists, who will practise prevention instinctively if their patients are registered.”
“Does the Minister not understand that dentists feel deeply demoralised? Nine years after the 1997 general election, the Government undertook wholesale reform of the system; just three years after that, they are winding the clock back to the previous position, and dentists are entitled to ask what on earth is going on. Such changes—welcome though they must be, because the Minister’s system has clearly failed—must be seen as deeply demoralising to the dental profession, so perhaps the Minister would like to apologise.”
“I congratulate my hon. Friend on introducing this debate. Is he aware of the American experience, which involves far greater numbers? The suggestion is that young men who have served are twice as likely to take their own life than those who have not served. We need to be particularly mindful of the American experience, given that it is greater than ours, when making our projection of the long tail that current operations are likely to have.”
“The US Administration have put in place a $900 million PTSD programme, including comprehensive mental health screening for the operational military. Our Government have not. One could be forgiven for supposing that British combat stress and American combat stress were completely different disorders. Can the Minister say how much we have spent on PTSD, why clinical awareness of it continues to flatline and why there is no mental health screening programme for our returning veterans?”