Dr Andrew Murrison
MP for South West Wiltshire · Conservative · United Kingdom
“It is good to hear that the Government plan to replenish the dwindling stocks of Patriot missiles in Ukraine, which I suspect it will need this winter. However, Patriot is low volume and high cost. What the Ukrainians need is high volume and low cost.”
“Currently, the Royal Navy has an offshore patrol vessel permanently stationed in the Falkland Islands, but given the threat that is being faced and our need to demonstrate resolve—the sort of thing that, sadly, we did not demonstrate in the early 1980s, which led to miscalculation—will the Minister consider speaking to her MOD colleagues…”
“Since the Foreign Secretary is not going to get the co-operation, fulsome or otherwise, of the Israeli state in differentiating goods and services made in the settlements from those that are assembled, repackaged, produced and grown in Israel itself, how is he going to distinguish the one from the other?”
“The Government insisted on applying the social time preference rate to the disastrous Chagos deal to make an appalling deal look slightly better.”
“Will the First Secretary of State’s exercise in delivering democracy and local accountability and empowering local people include a look at large organisations that cannot be described as governmental or as quangos but that nevertheless exist firmly within the public domain, are established by statute, serve the public and are big employe…”
“I congratulate the Government on the hiring of Alistair Burt—he is a good hire and will do great things for some of these most complex of cases—but does the Minister agree that many of these cases are extremely difficult and exceptionally traumatic, and that it is far better to prevent them happening in the first place?”
The complete record
Every one of 4,639 lines we hold for Dr Andrew Murrison, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 71 of 93.
“I am grateful to the Minister, who is being extremely generous in giving way. Some of the non-signatories to whom he referred are partners in NATO and the European security and defence policy. Increasingly, commands are joint, so how will the Bill affect British officers who find themselves commanding forces from countries that are non-signatories? Will it not render their actions ultra vires?”
“I suppose it is a fine point, but it is one that could arise in practice. I do not suggest for a moment that a British officer would call in the use of cluster munitions that might be available because of the forces under his command, but they might nevertheless be used at a sub-unit level. Would the officer have any responsibility in that event, or would he be absolved of responsibility?”
“May I congratulate my hon. Friend on including in the motion a mention of higher and further education colleges? If we examine the Government’s amendment, we see that it does not mention further education colleges, which is a serious omission, but perhaps one indicative of the way that this Government have treated further education generally, and not least Wiltshire college in my constituency.”
“The hon. Gentleman is quite right to be an advocate for his constituents, but he is quite wrong to spread fear and unhappiness among them. He must know that the position of the Opposition is very similar to that of the Government on this matter. I am sure that Ministers know where the break clauses are; we simply do not. It is wrong of him to pretend that there is some massive difference between the positions of the Government and the Opposition on the aircraft carriers, and I hope that he will set the matter straight.”
“The hon. Gentleman is indulging in the narcissism of small differences. That would be fine and academic if it were not spreading unnecessary alarm among his constituents. Has he had an unequivocal commitment to the aircraft carriers from his hon. Friends?”
“It is important to get this straight, so I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for being generous in giving way so that that can be done. Will he say who wrote the break clauses, who signed up to them and what he thinks was in their minds when they did the signing?”
“It is a pleasure to commence the wind-ups at such an early hour. We have had a series of good contributions—a total of 11 from right across the House—and, although I tend to get rather cynical sometimes, especially after six hours of sitting in the Chamber, I have to say that they have all been of exceptional value. I must add, however, more in sorrow than in anger, that it is a pity that we did not get any Back-Bench contributions from the Liberal Democrats. If they want to be taken seriously on this subject, as on any other, they need to show a bit more interest. It is particularly good to be debating defence on the Ides of March, perhaps slightly portentously.”
“Having been nice to her until now, I point out ever so gently that she did not provide much evidence to back up that assertion. A miscellany of nations is operating off Yemen and Somalia, in a highly complex overlapping operation, which hardly depends on the EU except in so far as it relies heavily on Permanent Joint Headquarters, Northwood.”
“Of course, we have to consider how such things play not only internationally but also on the stage at home. As I shall point out later, the danger is that we might lose the war on the home front. Our domestic audience is keen that we reduce collateral as far as possible, as I know is the case on the ground. The hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton was savaged by the Liberal Democrats—a bit like being savaged by a dead sheep, but there we are—when she suggested that we need to maintain critical skills. We are probably dealing with our sovereign capability, and she is right to say that we cannot simply invent skills of that sort, as I know full well from my own service: they are of a high order and need to be maintained in one way or another. The hon. Lady asserted that we need European defence to deal with piracy.”
“He also made a point about accelerated senility in relation to equipment, and the fact that urgent operating requirements do not really address it properly. He might have mentioned that procurement clawback is very relevant to that issue and that the two things combined are storing up trouble for the decade ahead, as we address the replacement of kit. His point about senility was well made, however. We first became aware of it in relation to sand and vehicles in Iraq in 2003. It seems that we may not have learned some of the lessons. The hon. Gentleman wanted minimisation of civilian casualties in Helmand and Kandahar. He is absolutely right to point out that it should be an imperative. General McChrystal has made it clear that it is mission critical.”
“Indeed; the hon. Gentleman’s comment is on the record. I think that there was a Member from the SNP here earlier, but he has gone and I do not think that he made a contribution. Let me start by discussing the speech of the hon. Member for North Devon (Nick Harvey). I rather regret that he fudged the issue of the independent strategic nuclear deterrent. He seems to think that we could whistle up a deterrent virtually overnight, but that is disingenuous. I am afraid that it is an example of the Liberal Democrats trying to have it both ways so that they can sing different songs to different audiences. That point was picked up obliquely, and understandably, by the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton (Linda Gilroy), when she spoke about submarines. The hon. Gentleman spoke about European defence and I intend to spend some time dealing with that.”
“Gentleman that the fault, if there is one, rests just as much with our failing properly to interpret the evidence that is presented to us, just as much as it does with their presenting the evidence in the first place.”
“Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney discussed deficiencies in the MOD, and said that we are spending money inefficiently. As I have said, he was somewhat critical of generals who appeared before the Defence Committee, and who apparently said one thing then went off and said something else when they retired. There is a learning point in this, because we are accustomed to and, indeed, benefit from the can-do attitude of our armed forces, which goes right through the military. There is sometimes a tendency for serving personnel to be positive about what they are asked to do with the resources that are available to them. As we are required to examine the evidence and consider what we are told, it is incumbent on us to moderate and allow for that natural tendency. I would therefore tell the hon.”
“The most obvious tribalism is service tribalism—perpetrated, I have to say, by the service chiefs in a way that percolates right the way through the services that they represent. If I am going to take a swipe at the top brass—it seems to be de rigueur to do so in today’s debate—it would be on that subject. There is another sort of tribalism, which is as insidious a form of tunnel vision. Campaign tribalism is the dangerous idea that Britain now and for all time will be engaged exclusively in asymmetric warfare against Islamic fundamentalism, which truly threatens the defence of the United Kingdom. We look to a strategic defence review to establish an appropriate centre of gravity for our defence posture. The hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton touched on that in advocating preparation for conventional warfare. The hon.”
“More generally, MOD reorganisation has been talked about today, and not specifically with regard to those who have lots of stars on their shoulders. Having been unkind about the European Defence Agency, I will express my indebtedness to it for some interesting facts. For example, we learn that the UK has four times more officials to uniformed personnel than Germany. Fortunately, it seems likely that the head count at the MOD will come under scrutiny in the course of both strategic defence reviews that have been promised. I hope that we will benchmark against other countries, particularly Germany. Cutting numbers may be necessary, but it is certainly not sufficient. We must undertake a root-and-branch appraisal of the way in which the MOD supports defence output, and central to that is an attack on tribalism.”
“Member for Rotherham appears to have been somewhat surprised to have sat down in standard class with a major-general, late of the Irish Guards. I suspect that the gallant gentleman was as alarmed as the right hon. Gentleman. It is worth while putting on the record that it is now common practice for senior officers to travel standard class, so the right hon. Gentleman should not have been that surprised. The hon. Member for North Devon also mentioned top brass, as did the hon. Member for Bridgend, who thought that they were biased. It is funny how people think that others are biased only when those others do not happen to agree with them. The hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Havard) mentioned top brass, too, as of course did the hon. Member for Glasgow, South-West, who attacked the noble Lord Guthrie for going to Harrow.”
“It seems that complex undertakings such as the A400M and the Eurofighter are allowed to proceed only at the pace of the slowest, so the UK—the country that spends most on defence and, of that spending, the most on procurement—suffers disproportionately. A wise Government will treat with tried-and-trusted peers and view with suspicion permanent structured co-operation, with its invitation to the sleeping partners of the European security and defence policy to enjoy cover without paying the premium. Several right hon. and hon. Members discussed the MOD in one way or another, and a surprisingly large number were really quite cutting about the top brass—senior officers, both serving and retired. Let me list those Members. The right hon.”
“Davies), who was here earlier, spent some time trying to convince me that the EU had brought peace to Transylvania. Truly, time spent on the Committee corridor is rarely wasted. We were at it again on 1 March, when he and I debated upstairs what forces the EDA had managed to generate. He was able to offer only three antique eastern European helicopters. I recall discussing those self-same airframes with the NATO Secretary-General during a visit to Brussels a couple of years ago. I think that my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest, East (Dr. Lewis) was at the same meeting. Progress at the European Defence Agency has indeed been exceedingly slow. European procurement collaboration has been characterised by excessive costs and elastic time frames.”
“The suspicion that I think he was touching on was the suspicion that a nascent EU military identity is viewed as a building block taking us towards the goal of ever closer union, rather than as a means of force generation. It is hardly surprising that the head of the European Defence Agency, of which there has been much press coverage this weekend, concluded of the six-year-old agency that although there had been a “slow start”, “we are starting to see real progress.” If there has been progress, it has been truly glacial, particularly as regards the EDA’s stated intention of boosting military spending across the continent. In Committee last year, the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, the hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford (Mr.”
“He might, of course, have mentioned Belgium in rather less flattering terms, but we will let that one pass. He also talked about procurement, but although he rightly said that many European countries make things, he was unable to articulate who in Europe actually does the spending on defence matériel. In June 2009, the right hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (Mr. Hutton) said in opening the last of these debates in which he took part: “I…want the European Union to show what it can do when it focuses on outcomes rather than institutions”. —[ Official Report , 4 June 2009; Vol. 493, c. 437.] That is a sentiment I think we would all share.”
“He should go back to his constituents and tell them that the positions of the Opposition and of the Government are extremely similar, if not identical, and explain why Ministers—his Ministers—wrote in the break clauses that he is waving like a shroud in Glasgow. The right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. MacShane) is not in his place— [Interruption.] I have no idea where he is, which is a pity, as I owe him a debt of gratitude because he mentioned Europe. That gives me an excuse to talk about it. The right hon. Gentleman talked a great deal about it, which is unsurprising; he often does. Conservatives are usually accused of banging on about Europe, but there are hon. and right hon. Gentlemen on the Labour Benches who are just as capable of doing that as I am. The right hon. Gentleman rightly dispelled the myth about the Exocet and 1982.”
“If our highly complex, multi-billion pound North sea oil industry can procure what it needs efficiently, so can the MOD. Several hon. Members spoke around the subject of aircraft carriers—the hon. Members for Plymouth, Devonport (Alison Seabeck), for Plymouth, Sutton and for Glasgow, South-West (Mr. Davidson). I enjoyed my exchange with the hon. Gentleman and fully understand his partisan need to create between the Government and Opposition a gulf on the subject of aircraft carriers, although I hope our exchange clarified some of that. In so doing, I am afraid, he does a disservice to his constituents. His rhetoric is, in my view, irresponsible, and it is unkind.”
“It has the added advantage of sidestepping the conspiracy of optimism that binds together officials and industry in a “bid high spec, bid full spec” compact with “bid low entryism” in the full and certain knowledge that, once in the equipment plan, projects are rarely deleted or changed. In the back of every contractor’s mind is the potential to claw back against the MOD—against a tight contract that both parties knew was untenable. US overruns and cost ceiling breaches result in the US Department of Defence being hauled before Congress. Here, nothing much seems to happen, although in the House 10 days ago we voted for stronger Select Committees. Perhaps the authors of our procurement failures should be arraigned formally before the House of Commons Defence Committee. There will be no shortage of work.”
“It is an artificial accounting construct that charges top-level budget holders interest on assets and makes it extremely difficult to hedge equipment and skills against future contingencies. It is a mechanism ideally suited to fighting today’s conflicts, but serves poorly our defence against potential conventional threats of the future. Several hon. and right hon. Members spoke around the issue of procurement, as well they might. The UOR experience has taught us that efficient procurement is possible and that getting 80 per cent. effect is good enough if it is delivered on time and on budget.”
“[Interruption.] The Secretary of State giggles—I am not sure what we should read into that—but let us dispense with the fiction that the defence budget has been rising every year in real terms. We now know the inconvenient truth, which flatly contradicts the Prime Minister’s assertions about increases throughout his watch and, crucially, those previously claimed between 2003-04 and 2004-05. The evidence of senior officials and soldiers, and that of the right hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Hoon), about how resource accounting and budgeting was applied in those vital years and the impact that cuts had on airframes in Afghanistan is devastating. RAB lives on.”
“Jenkin) cut to the quick, as ever, and asked where the UK should be in the world in defence terms. I would like that debate to be carried to the wider public, because it strikes at the heart of where we should be right now. We need to determine what we are and where we are going to be, whether we are to continue to be a player on the global stage or, indeed, whether we are to retrench. Upon that we can base our future spending commitments. In the minds of many, although not in my mind, is the question whether we have indeed reached another “east of Suez” moment. We look forward to the Prime Minister being called back before the Iraq inquiry for a more forensic examination of the role he has played in curtailing defence spending.”
“Wilshire) gave a very moving speech about his opposition to the Iraq war and his reservations about Afghanistan. Of all the things I did as a Back Bencher, I am happy to say that withholding my support for the Iraq war was the one I feel most comfortable about. Nothing I saw when I served in Iraq in late 2003 changed my mind about that conflict. Equally, I am perfectly happy—as I know my hon. Friend will be—to be proved wrong by history. The important thing is that parliamentarians made their assessment at the time and voted one way or the other in good faith. I should declare my interest—I usually do, but have forgotten to do so this evening. It is recorded in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests that I am a serving officer in the Royal Naval Reserve. My hon. Friend the Member for North Essex (Mr.”
“I am grateful to the hon. Lady. I will deal with Europe in some depth further on in my remarks. The hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs. Moon) talked about the relationship between the state, the public and the armed forces. She cited the case of her grandfather, who is numbered among the fallen of the great war, and she spoke movingly of him. She talked about mental health and the consequences of conflict. She will of course have seen the somewhat troubling answer to a written question that I received recently from the Minister. It outlined the incidence of post-traumatic stress disorder and the consequences of mental illness. The figures are alarming, and we need to be mindful of the occupational effects of participation in conflict and do everything we can to reduce the toll it takes. My hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne (Mr.”
“I am bound to ask the Minister what sort of interpretation of the military covenant it is that leads to the diversion of funds earmarked from the early 1990s for improvements to the married quarters estate. Much of it lies in a parlous state, as the Armed Forces Federation recently pointed out, and as I have seen in my constituency. It is hardly surprising that when the Prime Minister drops in for a photo-shoot with the boys in desert combats as a politically obliging backdrop, the only smile on display is his rictus grin.”
“Who will take the rap for the apparently poor preparation for IEDs revealed by the Wiltshire coroner, David Masters, this month? The hon. Member for North Devon spoke about Mr. Masters’s concerns about metal detectors, and he was right to do so. Mr. Masters’s court is in Trowbridge in my constituency, and I have met him. He is concerned about the men and women of our armed forces, and he is extremely concerned that we should do absolutely everything in our power to keep them safe. We owe it to our troops to optimise their safety, and we owe it to the mission too, because if this battle is lost, it will be lost on the home front among a British public who may not be up for the fight indefinitely.”
“Arbuthnot) used the limitations of the Maxim gun to illustrate the importance of soldiers despite advances in technology, and he rightly said that we have perhaps rediscovered that in current asymmetric operations. My hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard) spoke about the importance of training. Clearly, he has a strong constituency interest, as well as a more general interest in the training of the men and women of our armed forces. He also argued for the return of the Army from Germany. Training is at the heart of the military, and we have seen how ready Ministers have been to economise in their attitude to the training of the Territorial Army. How can it possibly be right for regular Army training to be cut by a third last year?”
“I absolutely acknowledge that. As I said in passing, the House has recently strengthened the Committee structure, so perhaps that might be part of that. The hon. Gentleman mentioned giving evidence off the record as a way of addressing the problem, given the highly sensitive nature of some of the things with which we deal. Our edge is our technological advantage, together with the defence industrial base that underpins it. Let us not forget what really counts in conventional asymmetric and hybrid warfare. It is what this country does so very well—it is the men and women of our armed forces. Several right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House have spoken movingly of them this evening. My right hon. Friend the Member for North-East Hampshire (Mr.”
“The Minister of State missed the very important point made by the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker) about the potential for high speed rail to divert funds from the rest of the regional rail network. Will the Minister address that point head on, and comment specifically on the south-west, which he did not mention at all, and its need for electrification and dual tracking? It would be a pity if those projects were put at risk, as they represent only a small sum, relatively speaking, of the budget he has discussed today.”
“How does the right hon. Gentleman reconcile the fact that alcohol is relatively cheap in France, yet the incidence of alcohol-related disease is declining there, as he said, whereas alcohol is relatively expensive in this country and we have a bigger problem?”
“The Leader of the House will share my concern at reports from service charities and in the press about the plight of ex-Gurkhas. Apparently, they are being offered spurious money advice by unscrupulous organisations in Kathmandu, even though the same service is available free from the Gurkha Settlement Office. Can we have an urgent debate on the matter, and will she raise it urgently with her colleague the Defence Secretary?”
“Given that the nature of recent conflict requires us to have more able people in military leadership roles than ever before, may I press the Minister for a proper assessment of not only the likely damage to recruitment numbers but also the military effect of his gross budgetary short-termism?”
“The memo from HQ Land dated 12 October, which leaked in-year cuts to the OTC, warned of downstream implications for officer recruitment. Ominously, it went on to say that because money was so tight, there may be further cuts in the pipeline to be discussed with Ministers. Given that the MOD’s financial position since October cannot be said to have improved, will the Minister say what further discussion he has had on cuts to cadet forces, which the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, the hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford (Mr. Davies), would probably call “descoping”?”
“The Leader of the House will have seen in the press recently the fruits of the labours of the Minister of State, Department of Health, the right hon. and learned Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. O'Brien), and the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones) in trying to sell their eleventh-hour improvements to veterans health care. Given that the matter is of enormous importance to veterans and to Members of the House, will the right hon. and learned Lady try to encourage her colleagues, if it is not too much trouble, to come to the House to explain what they plan so that that can be subject to proper scrutiny here?”
“I have not been to Auschwitz-Birkenau with the Holocaust Educational Trust, but I have attended the debriefing that young people get following their visits, which is extremely salutary. Does the Minister agree that the real genius of the trust is its ability to trace the development of anti-Semitism in Germany and to impress upon young people that this happened not simply in isolation but, disturbingly and disquietingly, has parallels with the way that we live our lives today? That brings it home to young people that such things could happen again, and, one hopes, helps us to guard against that. That is the real message of the Holocaust Educational Trust.”
“It is great that a compromise has been brokered. However, my hon. Friend referred to all the work that was done in the other place. Does he share my concern that there will be a lot of work for this place if some of the 410 local authorities are tempted to bring forward private Bills to deal with their local issues? Does he agree that we must do something to ensure that we have a form of legislation that will be permissive, to allow—”
“Does my hon. Friend share my concern about the pressure that this problem can place on casualty departments? They are likely to receive default patients, as it were, who have failed to get adequate primary care services because of the difficulties with out-of-hours cover. They are also likely to have patients referred to them by locums who are not as familiar with local health care facilities as the local GPs. That is placing a great burden on many of our casualty departments, and they are facing a particular problem with elderly, vulnerable and chronically ill people, who really should not be sent to acute hospitals at all, if that can be avoided.”
“The Leader of the House will be aware of increasing public concern at excessive bank charges and the Office of Fair Trading’s decision to throw in the towel. Can we have a debate, in Government time, about the Government’s failure to extract a voluntary agreement? They promised that they would extract one from the banks, but they have so far failed.”
“My hon. Friend knows of my interest, albeit amateur, in the pork industry. Does he agree that for consumers to exert choice they need to know from where a product is sourced? Does he share my concern that certain supermarkets are in the habit of claiming that pork is sourced in the UK, but when one looks on their shelves, one finds that their bacon is produced anywhere but the UK? Does he agree that the ombudsman needs to look into that as a matter of urgency?”
“Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there might be some benefits for the British food industry in, for example, labelling, which supermarkets currently use in an adverse way? I mentioned the pork industry in my earlier intervention and the fact that the implication to consumers is that some products are British-sourced when in fact they are not. That clearly needs to be sorted out. Had supermarkets done that already, and not behaved as I am afraid that they have, perhaps some of us would be less enthusiastic now for an ombudsman to sort it out.”
“Is my hon. Friend therefore saying that since the enactment of the services directive, the measures to which my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, East (Mr. Ellwood) referred have become ultra vires?”
“As politicians, we know full well how easy it is to expand carrying capacity. Any one of us who has set up a street stall will know that. What concerns local authorities is the problem of clutter and the blocking of ease of access for people going about their normal business. Does my hon. Friend agree that it is important to ensure that from this definition of carrying capacity does not emerge a table or stand of some sort that the pedlar might use? Might not a restriction in that regard make good sense?”
“I have been listening to my hon. Friend’s remarks, which make some sense to me. Would it help if he distinguished between a pedlar providing services, notwithstanding what he has said about the services directive, and those providing goods for sale? Providing goods for sale takes little time, whereas providing a service—he mentioned teeth whitening—will take rather more than five minutes. Indeed, one would hope that it would, so perhaps a distinction should be drawn between the two.”
“It would, of course, depend on precisely what they were doing—if they were acting as a provider of services, or if they were acting as a pedlar of goods. In the event that they were doing both, the former would clearly take precedence over the latter.”
“But the provision would apply, presumably, to the “lucky lavender” seller who peddles her wares—throughout the summer, certainly—on Westminster bridge. She does not move very far and cannot, poor thing, because of all the passing traffic, so it would apply to her, would it not?”
“I agree with my hon. Friend entirely. It is a pity that individual local authorities have to pursue these matters in this way. My council, Wiltshire county council, has yet to contact me on this matter, but I know that these issues arise in the market towns of Wiltshire, and I am anticipating the day when we might have to introduce a similar Bill for my area. Does my hon. Friend agree that there is a hierarchy of disadvantage for those who operate shops, for street traders and for pedlars—in terms of business rates, for example? That creates a competitive disadvantage that needs to be addressed, and in that respect the market needs to be managed. This Bill is part of that process, albeit in relation only to Bournemouth.”