Andrew George
MP for St Ives · Liberal Democrat · United Kingdom
“After all, the current situation regarding coercion and safeguarding is certainly not satisfactory. The Bill provides safeguards where presently there are none.”
“I am sorry to be stirring up Members at this stage of the debate, particularly as time is very short. Another theme is that people somehow believe that there is a binary choice available to us on palliative care: that we should either have 100% palliative care, or can go down the route of backing the Bill—or rather, that we should not sup…”
“It is an honour to be called to speak in this debate. Indeed, it is the first time that I have. I am a sponsor of the Bill and a member of the Health and Social Care Committee. I congratulate the hon. Member for Rochester and Strood (Lauren Edwards) on how she introduced this debate, and the hon.”
“Defeating the Bill would also reward the worst of the reprehensible behaviour of those in the other place who blocked this legislation last time.”
“I am sorry, but because of time, I will not. If the hon. Member wants, he can send me a postcard with the answer to my question: when have we ever had a perfect piece of legislation?”
“I cannot give way, because of the time constraints. All Bills are necessarily a compromise. That does not mean that we simply have to make do with bad legislation, but the Bill that was sent down to the other place was in fact an excellent compromise that actually achieved all of the matters—”
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“In such areas there is often a big mismatch between earnings levels and house prices, given the large amount of wealth that wishes to invest in those properties, so we need to ensure a proper balance. It is also important to understand the distinction between second and holiday homes. Often, in discussions and media commentary, the two are confused. They are two sides of a coin, but in regulatory terms they are significantly different. Some properties flip from one form of regulation to the other, from being second homes operating under the council tax regime to the holiday lettings sector, which operates in the business rates system.”
“I beg to move, That this House has considered the regulation of holiday and second homes in Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly. I am delighted to have secured the opportunity to debate this motion. It is worth emphasising that this is about not the politics of envy, but the politics of social and housing justice. Many people are concerned about the proper provision, allocation and use of property, particularly residential properties, in those areas with a significant preponderance of holiday and second homes. The tourism industry in such areas is vital, but it is important to get the balance right in the usage of properties and how, and which, properties are used in the industry.”
“The latest figures in Cornwall show nearly 14,000 second homes and more than 11,000 properties registered as short-term lets, as far as businesses are concerned. The most recent trawl through the larger of the holiday letting websites showed nearly 22,000 active listings. That figure was recorded on an initial trawl, but it does not represent the full scale of holiday lets available.”
“Indeed I do agree, and I am grateful for that intervention emphasising the points that I and many of those present wish to make. Although we are talking about Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly specifically, the subject clearly has wider impact across the country as a whole. The context is important in Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly. Over the past decade, more than half a billion— £500 million—of taxpayers’ money has been handed out to holiday home owners in Cornwall alone under a variety of different and variable tax incentives available to the holiday lettings sector, such as the small business rate relief system for furnished holiday lets. Perhaps most scandalously, because those properties were entitled to such relief, they were entitled to covid aid as well—£20,000 to each one of them, for no very good reason.”
“I acknowledge that this is an important part of the Cornish economy, but it is worth noting that when one looks for accommodation in places such as Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly, the hotel and guesthouse sector is just as—if not more—important, in the sense that it competes with the holiday letting sector without many of the incentives and benefits that the self-catering sector enjoys. For example, many operate above the VAT threshold, whereas those in the holiday letting sector, if they take it down to a single property, do not. Of course, they face many other regulations as well.”
“The hon. Member is absolutely right. On the one hand, we are trying to address the desperate housing needs of local families. We have in excess of 20,000 families on the local housing register, and we know that is merely the tip of the iceberg—the need is a great deal more. On the other, a lot of local families are being evicted from their private rented accommodation to make way for yet more holiday lets. If we do not recognise that, we are failing to grasp the full picture, so he makes a strong point.”
“First, on council tax, going back to the pre-history where this all originated, when the Conservatives originally introduced the council tax system—what they called the community charge—they introduced a 50% council tax discount for second homes, because they said second home owners were not using all the services and therefore should not have to pay for them. That was the justification back in the 1990s.”
“That is absolutely the case. As a visitor to the Isles of Scilly, my hon. Friend knows that that is a significant problem, because people cannot commute to the Isles of Scilly to work. It is difficult to commute to work for businesses providing those kinds of jobs in many of the coastal areas around Cornwall, and many people find themselves living in very informal settings, including caravans, because nothing else is available to them. I will rapidly run through some of the regulations concerned: council tax; small business rate relief; the furnished holiday lettings scheme; holiday business registration, which the last Government proposed, and the planning use class changes.”
“People might switch from council tax to business rates and use the small business rate system, for example, and pay nothing at all. They may take other options rather than paying council tax.”
“I hope the Minister will consider that. The last Conservative Government responded to pressure. A lot of us were arguing very strongly against the way second holiday homes were being treated, although I was outside Parliament during my nine-year sabbatical. They could not withstand that political pressure; they had to respond to it. Indeed, they announced the intention to increase the premium on second homes by up to 100%, to be imposed by local authorities. Have the new Government carried out any kind of impact assessment on the change in council tax arrangements for second homes? Have they considered whether it would have a counterproductive impact, if it was not married with a suite of other regulatory changes?”
“I hope the Minister, who I am pleased to see in his place today, will consider the precedent set by Chris Mullin when, towards the end of his response, he said: “The hon. Gentleman said that he had received a rather complacent response from the Government, and, indeed, I have here a rather complacent response, which I will not read out. I merely say that the issue was reviewed about a year ago, and at the time there were no sufficiently cogent reasons for a change. I am, however, willing to follow up the point in my Department. Perhaps we can discuss it later.” —[ Official Report, 9 February 2000; Vol. 344, c. 112WH.] Chris Mullin and I did discuss it later, and the policy was changed. One of the lessons from that is that we can effect change through these debates if Ministers are receptive to the arguments we put forward.”
“I am grateful to the hon. Member for that intervention. Indeed, she anticipates something that I will come on to in a moment. Going back to that pre-history, we managed to make that change under the previous Labour Government. Indeed, I remember well a debate in this Chamber on 9 February 2000 when I raised these issues almost a quarter of a century ago. Chris Mullin was the Under-Secretary of State responding to that debate. I had raised the issue of the unfairness of the 50% council tax system. I had been campaigning pretty much on my own for some time until that point. I made the point to the Under-Secretary that the responses I had received from Government had been complacent.”
“In the Liberal Democrats’ view, we also need to look at a sunset clause on those permissions; otherwise, there will be a perverse incentive for all of us to seek planning permission for that use class change in order to get a market advantage or an inflated price within the market. There should be a sunset clause, relating to the end of that usage, ownership or change within the Land Registry. In conclusion, I will simply say that this is a very important issue in areas such as Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly, and—as we can see from today’s debate—in many other parts of the country. A suite of policies and changes need to be addressed by the Government, and many of us across all parties would be keen to work with them to ensure that the balance is absolutely right, and that local housing need is given the highest priority of all.”
“In other words, second homes and holiday lets should all be within one category, because we believe that the impact is the same on local communities, and therefore the change should apply not only to holiday lets but to second homes. I hope that the new C5 use class for short-term rentals, which was announced by the previous Government, will be looked at with care, particularly the fact that it appears to fall under permitted development rights. In other words, local authorities specifically have to apply an article 4 direction to avoid a situation where someone converting a property to a holiday let simply announces it to the local authority and does not need to seek permission. I hope that the Minister will look at that issue.”
“I hope that the Government will be clear about how the registration scheme will be introduced, and I know that Cornwall council has offered to assist the Government in that. The council has expertise and is keen to introduce the registration system, but it needs to know how the scheme will work, what level of verification and inspection will be required by the council and what income can be raised. It will be an expensive process and Cornwall is offering to be a pilot area, if the Government wish. Let me turn to the proposed planning use class change, which the Liberal Democrats have long argued should apply to all non-permanent occupancy residences.”
“I have already referred to the impact small business rate relief has had. It has clearly been a major incentive for property investors to invest in holiday lets in areas such as Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly. Although the small business rate relief system is due to expire next year, could the Minister be clear about the Government’s plans for the future? There are no doubt pressures from that sector to reintroduce a similar rate relief. Although I do not think that is justified, for very obvious reasons, there are parts of the sector, particularly those holiday lets under an occupancy restriction, that could perhaps be included. We have had a campaign success, in that the last Conservative Government insisted on a 70-day use to justify the rate relief, but that needs to be reviewed.”
“My hon. Friend makes an important point. It is not just the housing impacts; it is the wider societal and community impacts property investors have on local communities. I hope that when the council tax increase comes in, the Government will be clear on what local authorities can do. Will the council tax increase provide additional income that local authorities can use to address housing need, or will it result in a reduction in the central Government support grant to local authorities? Cornwall is staring down the barrel of a £100 million deficit, so that issue is very significant. A number of us are making the argument that council tax could go up by 200% or 300%, rather than 100%, in some areas because of the impact second homes are having, in order to adjust things as we believe they should be adjusted.”
“I just want to re-emphasise that many people who own second homes in Cornwall make a significant contribution to the local community, and indeed a financial contribution, because they recognise the impact of their privilege. As I say, this is not about envy, and a lot of those who own second and holiday homes are conscious of the impact.”
“When the Conservatives privatised water, they created risk-free, money-printing emporiums that could pollute our coasts, including my west Cornwall coast, at their convenience. Although the Secretary of State says that nationalisation is not in scope —one can understand why—to what extent will company governance be in scope? Will it be possible to move companies closer to becoming community benefit societies, or at least to installing a community environmental champion, not in the pay of the company, on every board, to keep watch on the company?”
“I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way and for the case she is making today. I fully endorse everything she has said. She mentioned the previous Government’s effective ban on onshore wind: does she agree that the Conservative Government also scrapped sustainable homes regulations and other regulations, setting us back many years? We have a lot of time to make up. In Cornwall especially, there is significant enthusiasm to accelerate the pace so that we can become the green peninsula and be recognised for that throughout the UK.”
“I wish the Minister well in her efforts to address this issue, because it is extremely serious. There are very often more than 20 ambulances queueing outside Treliske hospital, which has a serious impact on expectations for patients. Will the Minister please look at the potential for urgent treatment centres to take pressure away from emergency departments, such as the urgent treatment centre at West Cornwall hospital in Penzance, which really needs to be re-established on a 24/7 basis? That would make a real impact.”
“I strongly endorse the words of the hon. Member for Middlesbrough and Thornaby East (Andy McDonald). I note that the Minister perpetually uses the word “condemn” when she refers to Israel’s actions, yet last week the Prime Minister came to this House and said that he stands with the far-right Israeli Government. They are one of the most powerful and sophisticated military powers on the planet, yet only weeks ago we used our military to help defend Israel. Where is the equivalent action to defend the innocent people of Gaza and Lebanon? It simply cannot carry on like this. Surely the Government must stop pretending that they are bipartisan in this matter.”
“I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for raising this important subject in the House this evening. This is not just a problem in London: in Cornwall, 750 illegal vapes have been seized in the last year. The assistant director of public health in Cornwall has said that is just the tip of the iceberg. It is a very serious problem and affects many areas, including mine.”
“Following the points raised by the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth (Jayne Kirkham), may I point out that a great many other challenges have been revealed since the general election? There are worries about expensive school transport and risk-free investment in Cornwall, and there are also worries on the Isles of Scilly, where we seek parity with Scotland and the English mainland in respect of lifeline links to the islands and, indeed, inter-island transport. It would be helpful if, as well as meeting the transport authorities, the Minister could meet local MPs, because these issues are becoming very serious indeed.”
“I warmly welcome the Bill. It is right that we should regulate to avoid bad practice in the sector, but does the Secretary of State agree that measures should be available to enable, and indeed incentivise, good practice? Given that the previous Government gave millions of pounds to holiday homeowners in various tax incentives to encourage that sector, surely there must be methods by which the Government can incentivise good practice. Otherwise, the Bill might become counterproductive.”
“The Prime Minister said that I stand with Israel. I stand with peace; I stand with the Israeli people and with the Palestinians and the Lebanese equally. This is not mere semantics. I applaud the involvement of the UK military in protecting Israelis at the weekend, but where is the equivalent for the people of Gaza, Beirut and elsewhere?”
“On top of coming clean to the public and making a change from the way the previous Government treated the country, will the Secretary of State also assure the House that the Government will establish a proper, effective and honest workforce plan? After the years of Johnsonian bluster, when there was no effective workforce plan, the nurses who are the backbone of the NHS are still being paid £29,000 a year at grade 5. As the Royal College of Nursing says, it is about retention of staff, not just recruitment. They are leaving in droves because they cannot stand the unsafe circumstances in which they are operating.”
“Does the hon. Lady agree that this is about the politics of justice, not the politics of envy? It is not just an issue of the taxation of furnished lets. There has been an industrial movement of properties—second homes—going from being registered for council tax to being registered for business rates, and people then apply for small business rate relief and pay nothing at all. Against that, we do not get the investment in affordable homes for local people. In Cornwall alone, £500 million of taxpayers’ money has gone into the pockets of holiday let providers, while those specifically created, for planning reasons, with planning restrictions are outside that—”
“In Cornwall, £500 million of taxpayers’ money has gone into the pockets of holiday home owners since 2012, and that is simply unacceptable. I hope that we can address those issues by having not only a stronger planning policy but justice in the tax system.”
“The problem we have is that since the Conservative Government introduced the opportunity for second home owners to flip them in order to apply for business rates, and then apply for small business rates relief and pay nothing at all, billions of pounds have gone into the pockets of very wealthy property investors when we should be spending that money for local people. It is simply unfair that the poor are penalised through council tax for allegedly underusing their council house, but the rich are being rewarded for underusing their property investment vehicle. I would be surprised if a Government who say that those with the broadest shoulders should bear the greatest burden do not address that issue or the issue of social justice.”
“That point has been addressed in the debate already, but I wanted to emphasise it. I am very much in support of carrying on in the direction of a registration scheme. I also support the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth on widening the requirements for a C5 change of use class order so that specific planning permission is required for any non-permanent occupancy of a property, not just holiday lets. That is really important, because otherwise we will have all sorts of flipping going on in the system.”
“I know that we have all been heavily lobbied by those who are concerned about changes in the rules for furnished holiday lets, but we are not being lobbied by the people who are being made homeless as a result of the evictions that are taking place to create even more of those holiday lets. The late, great Paul Flynn used to say that it is the role of a Member of Parliament to seek out the silent voices, and I believe that is what we should be doing. We should be looking at the issues of social justice and not only listening to the loudest voices in the room. We also need to distinguish between properties that are given specific planning permission that provides for holiday lettings with restricted occupancy and those that would otherwise be used, or have been used, for permanent occupancy.”
“I congratulate the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Rachel Blake). I think I got the name of her constituency right; I come from Cornwall, so I do not know exactly how the boundaries cut in this part of the world. In my part of the world, as the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth (Jayne Kirkham) explained, hundreds of families are still being evicted to make way for yet more holiday lets, because that is the way the tax system and what I will call the economic advantage system work in a place like ours. I will come to the tax system, which the hon. Member for Penrith and Solway (Markus Campbell-Savours) referred to. We need to address issues of social justice. As I said earlier, this not the politics of envy; it is the politics of justice.”
“The Minister mentioned the contribution that self-catering short-term lets make to local economies. Hotels, purpose-built short-term chalets and so on also make an important contribution to local economies and often operate at a disadvantage relative to the many individual short-term lets that are operating below the VAT threshold and that in other respects are avoiding making their contribution to the local community or, indeed, national taxation.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way one more time. On the point that the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth (Jayne Kirkham) made earlier about small business rate relief, could the Minister please make sure that some very strong representations are made by her Department to the Treasury with regard to this issue, because the system is being abused at present? When it was first introduced, it was intended to protect village shops and similar businesses; it was not intended to feather-bed property investors.”
“I welcome the report. The previous Government left this Government with NHS and care services in the worst crisis in their history. The Secretary of State led by emphasising the decade of underinvestment; that needs to be coupled with pointing out the very weak workforce planning. When he meets the Liberal Democrats, will he review our costed plan to raise the investment necessary to address the issues highlighted in the report and to strengthen workforce planning in order to deliver services?”
“This is not my maiden speech, and after having taken a sabbatical—perhaps it was an enforced sabbatical, but it was one I enjoyed—away from the Chamber for so long, I would in normal circumstances praise my predecessor. We did not share much in the way of political agreement, but he worked hard for the constituency and achieved a great deal. Indeed, Mr Derek Thomas strived on a large number of projects, and I hope that I will reflect the efforts he made to ensure that those projects are delivered during my time in this House. Because it is not my maiden speech, I therefore do not need to remind the House, as I did on 22 May 1997, that my constituency is the most beautiful and most remarkable place in the country, occupied by the most beautiful, remarkable people.”
“During my nine-year sabbatical from this House I went back to my profession as the chief executive of a registered provider—a housing charity—working at the front line on predevelopment work and delivering affordable homes for local people. It is a challenging environment, and because of the man-made—or man and woman-made—nature of the regulatory environment in which professionals operate, and the topographical challenges that we face in places such as Cornwall, it is a little like trying to push boulders up a steep slope. I hope the Minister will take into account that if measures can be taken to improve the availability of opportunities for those who are ticking all the right boxes to deliver genuinely in-perpetuity affordable homes, which are desperately needed in our communities, the Government will do that.”
“It is a pleasure to have the opportunity to raise the rather grave issue of providing affordable housing in the housing emergency-ridden communities of Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly. I am grateful to those engaged in business earlier this evening who have permitted us a little extra time to explore the issue. Perhaps that was done for good reason, so that the grave and important issues of Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly could be properly and fully debated. I welcome the Minister to his place. Indeed, Liberal Democrat Members warmly welcome him and fully take on board the sincerity, intensity and determination of the Government to address the serious housing problems that exist across the country, and the housing emergencies that exist in many communities as well as Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly. I should also declare an interest.”
“If they are delivering security—affordable rents, a high-level energy performance certificate and the decent homes standard—surely there must be a way, within the tax system, of rewarding those good landlords, as well as regulating and penalising the bad ones. I hope that the Minister will consider each of the points that I have made to him. I am grateful for the additional time that I have been given to elaborate on those important points, and, of course, he has plenty of time in which to respond. I do not know whether other Members wish to speak as well.”
“Before I worked in a community land trust I was a sceptic, but I have to say that I am a convert to that method as one of the additional mechanisms to provide intermediate housing. I believe that it would be a cost-effective way for Homes England to engage with communities that want to deliver in-perpetuity homes for locals, which is clearly very important. Of course we do not want Rachmans and of course we want to drive bad practice out of the sector, but I hope that, perhaps taking a cue from what is happening in the holiday lettings, the Minister will consider this suggestion. As well as regulating the private rented sector, why should we not reward good landlords?”
“I also urge the Minister to consider the community-led homes sector. If we want to change the whole narrative and the way in which communities operate, we should give people the power to start representing themselves and local housing needs through, for instance, community land trusts and co-housing communities. The last Government had a flirtation with that sector and gave it some support, but then withdrew it. However, this work has started, and I think that more can happen to deliver more. If communities have local land trusts or local housing working parties, that is far better than allowing the nimbys to take over and start driving the development process. Let me also encourage the Minister to consider the issue of discounted sale homes.”
“Our charity had been working with the council on a project for which we had planning permission, and everything else, to deliver 12 self-build affordable homes for local families. Those homes were desperately needed—I believe that only eight homes have been built on the Isles in the last 10 years—but the construction costs were extremely high. It costs three times as much to build a home there as it does to build one on the mainland. Moreover, the project did not meet the requirements of Homes England in relation to subsidies. I urge the Minister to have a look at the very special environment that exists on the Isles of Scilly, and to address its housing needs. It is 28 miles from the mainland coast, and it should not be said that members of its community can commute, because they simply cannot do so.”
“If, as the Prime Minister rightly says, those with the broadest shoulders should bear the greatest burden, this is an area where that burden should be borne by the people who can afford extra properties and property investment in holiday and second homes. That is not, in my view, an appropriate way for us ever to spend public money. I said to the Minister earlier that I wanted briefly to mention the Isles of Scilly, and I hope that he will come and visit the area. Many people find it surprising that it is currently experiencing depopulation, which is largely driven by the lack of affordable housing. Here I declare an interest, as one who has been working in the sector.”
“Initially, in 2012, when I first blew the whistle on it as an MP, that resulted in £6.5 million going each year to holiday homeowners in places such as Cornwall. Within a couple of years, that had doubled. There has been an industrial-level movement of properties from council tax to business rates. When covid happened, they were all entitled to a covid grant as well, on top of that. As a result of that, the furnished holiday lettings and other loopholes, in Cornwall alone over 10 years we ended up with over £500 million of taxpayers’ money—that is our money—going into the pockets of holiday homeowners, at a time when only half that amount was going into housing associations to deliver affordable homes. I urge the Minister to work with his Treasury colleagues to close those loopholes and to find far better ways of using that money.”
“I campaigned against that at the time, and was grateful to Chris Mullin and the late Michael Meacher for being receptive to the arguments to remove the 50% council tax discount. However, in 2012, the Conservatives then introduced another loophole, which allowed second home owners to flip their properties from being registered as second homes for council tax to being registered for business rates as a holiday let, if they could demonstrate that the property was available for 140 nights a year. They did not need to let it, but it had to be available for 140 nights a year as a holiday let. Then they could apply for small business rate relief and pay nothing at all. We have ended up with a situation where all that has to be covered by the Treasury.”
“Against that, there is a very significant challenge of construction industry inflation, which is affecting Cornwall as it is many other places. That has caused a lot of developments in places all around Cornwall to be stalled, as the cost-to-value ratios have resulted in the unviability of many projects. I urge the Minister to look—I am sure he is—at Homes England’s affordable housing programme. While it is looking to the next five to 10 years, the current programme up to 2026 needs a further injection to address the current difficulties that many developments face. I said that I would address housing injustice. I am conscious of time and I know other hon. Members wish to speak, so I will be brief. When I was first elected, in 1997, the Conservatives had just introduced the 50% council tax discount for second homes.”
“It may sound counterintuitive, but one of the best ways of delivering affordable homes is to draw the development boundary very tight around a local community and to use rural exception as a way of ensuring that we keep the development land values low and deliver genuinely affordable homes. The other thing I urge the Minister to do, perhaps to correct the mistake made by Cornwall some 15 years ago, is not to allow cross-subsidy on rural exception sites. That has created a slippery slope where more and more landowners and private developers find ways around normal planning procedure and use rural exception sites as a Trojan horse to crowbar in far many more unaffordable homes on those sites than would otherwise be the case if we stuck to the principle of the policy itself.”
“It works well; since the 1990s when it was introduced, it has been very effective in delivering affordable homes on land that otherwise would not get planning permission. All I would say to the Minister is that we should look at ways in which we can expand and grow development on rural exception sites. In Cornwall we are doing very well; we deliver 50% of what is delivered on rural exception sites across the whole of England. About 20% or 30% of delivery in Cornwall is through rural exception sites. What the local authority has done, and what we as a charity sector campaigned for it to do, is extend the entitlement to deliver rural exception developments from the smaller villages to the edge of towns.”
“I urge the Minister to have a conversation with those who are trying to deliver the products on the ground, to set targets to reduce need rather than feed developers’ greed, because that is what housing targets do in places such as Cornwall—elsewhere they might have a different impact. Again, I ask the Minister to come to Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly and see what it is like. I am sure that all the local MPs, who are all champions for their own localities, will be fighting hard to address these issues. A further point I wish to make is on the rural exceptions policy, as I used that tool when working in the sector on a regular basis, and I have raised it with the Minister already.”