Andrew George
MP for St Ives · Liberal Democrat · United Kingdom
“After all, the current situation regarding coercion and safeguarding is certainly not satisfactory. The Bill provides safeguards where presently there are none.”
“I am sorry to be stirring up Members at this stage of the debate, particularly as time is very short. Another theme is that people somehow believe that there is a binary choice available to us on palliative care: that we should either have 100% palliative care, or can go down the route of backing the Bill—or rather, that we should not sup…”
“It is an honour to be called to speak in this debate. Indeed, it is the first time that I have. I am a sponsor of the Bill and a member of the Health and Social Care Committee. I congratulate the hon. Member for Rochester and Strood (Lauren Edwards) on how she introduced this debate, and the hon.”
“Defeating the Bill would also reward the worst of the reprehensible behaviour of those in the other place who blocked this legislation last time.”
“I am sorry, but because of time, I will not. If the hon. Member wants, he can send me a postcard with the answer to my question: when have we ever had a perfect piece of legislation?”
“I cannot give way, because of the time constraints. All Bills are necessarily a compromise. That does not mean that we simply have to make do with bad legislation, but the Bill that was sent down to the other place was in fact an excellent compromise that actually achieved all of the matters—”
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“The framework designed to protect communities from losing central banking services is far too narrowly focused. Current legislation and regulatory oversight look almost exclusively at access to cash, but needs to look at access to banking, banking advice, account advice and other services. Even Link’s formal assessments openly state that it does not consider access to more complex banking needs. It allows banks to close branches even when communities remain deeply dependent on face-to-face support, as we found in the case of Penzance, which I mentioned earlier. I ask the Minister to extend the regulatory framework, including the 2023 Act, which my hon.”
“Even when someone gets on top of the electronic capacity required to use electronic services, the services often still contain degrees of linguistic ambiguity that leave even the most intelligent and educated among us rather confused. Unless someone can speak to a human being, that ambiguity remains and the inaccessibility of those services continues as well. It is not just the electronics, but the fact that someone cannot ask anyone who has designed the system what on earth they mean by the options available. I am surprised that the review of access to financial services has been reduced to an assessment of merely cash. That is what the regulations seem to say. My hon. and gallant Friend suggested that the Government need to look at this again, and I hope they will.”
“I strongly agree with my hon. and gallant Friend. I will come to questions to the Minister in a moment; I believe that the Government need to look at the robustness and sustainability of those services. What has been put in the place of banks is rather flimsy in the longer term, and that represents a risk to the future of financial services, which are essential, particularly for the most vulnerable and digitally excluded in our society. It is worth reflecting that Members of Parliament using digital technologies perhaps do not entirely comprehend how difficult that is for some people. I am not one of the most IT-savvy people on the planet by any means, so I sympathise with those people to a certain extent.”
“One by one, we are getting them to commit their loyalty, but only for a limited period, up to 2030; we need to go way beyond that. I hope that my comments have helped to set the debate up for others to contribute, and I hope that the Minister is listening.”
“I hope that the Minister will consider strengthening the regulations, recognising the limitations that exist, and challenging the banks on the services they are providing, as well as the dismissive way in which they ignore the most vulnerable in society—the people who will be suffering the most. In towns such as Penzance, the impact on the viability of the town is significant. When high street banks have closed in other towns, footfall—the lifeblood of commerce in the centre of a market town—has been significantly depleted as a result. That is certainly one of the great fears in Penzance if the other bank branches fall like a house of cards after the closure of Lloyds. We are trying to stop that by demanding that the other banks demonstrate their loyalty to the town.”
“Another pattern is that the banks will refer to the significant increase in people using apps, online banking, telephone banking and other alternatives to the face-to-face banking available on the high street. Often, that increase is a result of enforcement by the banks themselves; they fail to take into account that it results from their policy of making it difficult for people to use face-to-face services. Indeed, when customers go through the front door of branches that the banks are trying to close down, they are often met by someone who triages them out of the door again, to go and use an app or online service that they do not want to use. The banks are creating the circumstances in which they can justify closing branches.”
“That is significant, and the impact on our communities has been fundamental and wide-ranging. On the day in January this year that Lloyds decided to close its Penzance branch, the bank had been in the most iconic building in the centre of our town, Market House, for literally 100 years. It was still serving 33,000 customers. Twenty-nine per cent of those local customers used the branch exclusively, and more than 1,000 regular weekly users—around one in 20 of the town’s residents—relied on it. The local population is older than the average and, as I mentioned, there was no consultation on the closure. Banks are able simply to ignore those facts.”
“Why are face-to-face transactions important? They are important for identity verification, resolution of fraud or scams, handling significant disputes or matters of banking interpretation, complex account queries, CHAPS and international payments, business cash deposits, and change-giving services. They are also important when there are bereavement or probate matters, as well as for community organisations, when counter-signatories are required, and for sports clubs and voluntary organisations. Those things are absolutely essential to the life of such organisations. I am conscious of time; although I could say a great deal more on this important issue, I want to make sure that other hon. Members have an opportunity. Since 2015, around 6,700 branches—68% of the whole banking network—have closed.”
“The hon. Member makes a pertinent and relevant point. That is why these matters need to be taken into account; it cannot be purely about access to cash, which is all that Link currently needs to consider. As long as there is an ATM in some corner within a mile or two of someone’s community, that is deemed to be sufficient to justify any bank closing anywhere. However, it is not sufficient. Now that the Penzance branch has closed, of the 39 Lloyds branches in Cornwall and on the Isles of Scilly, only two are left in Cornwall. People on the Isles of Scilly have to travel by ferry, paying £220 for a return ticket to the mainland—as well as for an overnight stay and a two-hour bus ride to Truro and back—to get access to face-to-face banking. That is the reality my constituents face to get access to the services.”
“At the end of the day, the issue is that the FCA and Link primarily undertake an assessment of access to cash, and not to the full range of banking services. The Minister says that adequate alternatives are in place. Of course, the banks will no doubt attempt to put some facade in place to satisfy that requirement—as she notes, I am unimpressed by the case in Penzance—but fundamentally, the test is access to cash, and that is insufficient. Surely that measure needs to be significantly widened.”
“I want to make sure that the Minister understands that I was simply describing what the community banker working on behalf of Lloyds was providing. I was referring to the Lloyds replacement for the closed branch, not a banking hub.”
“Their examples illustrate that much more work is needed to improve accessibility to banking services, particularly for the most vulnerable and the digitally excluded.”
“We have had a good debate and I am pleased that the Backbench Business Committee has permitted us to have it. It is clear that although we have aired so many of the issues today, there are still matters to be resolved. The Minister has helpfully addressed the Government’s position on the points that I raised at the beginning of the debate. Some should be part of an ongoing dialogue with Members who have been affected by the significant changes in banking services over the last decade and are therefore conversant with the impact it is having on constituents. The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (David Williams) strongly and articulately argued the case for improved services in his constituency. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Tewkesbury (Cameron Thomas) did the same.”
“I am grateful to the Minister, and I hope that the conversation can continue. Question put and agreed to. Resolved, That this House has considered the accessibility of banking services.”
“Friend the Member for Brecon, Radnor and Cwm Tawe (David Chadwick) illustrated how what is going on epitomises the widening inequality in this country. A chief executive of a bank runs off with £17 million. The big banks are creaming it on the back of the massive tax advantage that they have in these circumstances. On the other hand, the poorest in our society have been pushed out from these banks, and it has been made significantly more difficult for them to get access to banking services and support. The issue epitomises the widening inequality in society and people’s digital exclusion. That is why I hope that a Labour Government, working with Liberal Democrats who share the same values, would address these issues, and not simply allow the banks to get away with what I consider to be blue murder.”
“I do not wish to reopen the debate. I have no summed up a debate before so I was uncertain about the procedure; thank you, Mr Western, for your advice. I will not accept any further interventions and will bring my remarks to a close as soon as I can. The hon. Member for Cumbernauld and Kirkintilloch (Katrina Murray) made a telling contribution talking about the impact the situation is having on customers seeking support from banks. Very often, the banks have designed centralised systems for the convenience of the banks themselves, rather than for the customers. They seem to be retreating behind the digital and electronic walls of the bank, and not making themselves available to offer advice to people who really want to be able to eyeball people and see them face to face to get those services. Fundamentally, my hon.”
“If this was in the winter, I would had to have paid £240.00 just for the boating” to and fro each time—it is a £120 return trip—as residents have no alternative but to book what are known as “specials” to attend an X-ray appointment or medical appointment or to visit an elderly resident, friend or family member in St Mary’s hospital. “This again is £120.00 return. There has also been a cut back of transport funding for the under-five nursery services and clubs like the Brownies and so the list goes on and on, of all the problems that the residents of St Martins”— where this constituent lives— “are facing due to the lack of affordable boating.””
“To get over to the main island of St Mary’s, where all the services operate—the hospital, other medical services and the council—residents from the off-islands need to get across waters that are sometimes very tempestuous. This constituent says: “I broke my wrist…recently, and because there was no bone showing through my arm I had to wait 5 days to see medical personnel, have it x-rayed and put in plaster. I have had a medical procedure which involved 2 daily visits” from this off-island “to St Marys Health Centre but fortunately it was summer.”
“This is not the first time I have secured a debate of this kind. For example, I raised these issues in Westminster Hall on 8 January 2002—column 158, to help the Hansard Reporters—and on 15 January 2003, and on many other occasions since. I raised these issues outside the House even during my nine sabbatical years away because of the injustice. Some improvements have been made, but services have also gone backwards. One example comes from one of my constituents on one of the four off-islands. There are four inhabited off-islands in the Isles of Scilly—St Agnes, Bryher, Tresco and St Martin’s—and one main island, St Mary’s.”
“I am pleased to have secured this debate, and I am sure the Minister is delighted that we have reached the Adjournment at a point when we have ample time to explore the important issues of transport to and between the Isles of Scilly. There is, frankly, a shocking injustice. Scillonian residents have been treated as second-class citizens when it comes to affordable transport, especially when compared to everywhere else in the United Kingdom. I hope the Minister will acknowledge that point, take it on board and consider working with me, the council of the Isles of Scilly and the residents to ensure islanders receive parity on public transport, which other parts of the country take for granted. Some places struggle with transport, particularly in rural areas, but the circumstances are very different in the Isles of Scilly.”
“In those circumstances, we hope that the Isles of Scilly will be treated fairly. There are very high freight costs, and the costs of getting food and other essential services to the islands are therefore very significant. My ask of the Minister is that he works with me, the council, transport providers and others to alleviate these pressures by finding an agreeable way to provide support to reduce these costs of living.”
“The costs and prices for passenger transport, freight and indeed air transport for the Scottish islands are, in most cases, very heavily subsidised. I know that the UK Government are not responsible for the practices of the Scottish Government, but it was their responsibility prior to devolution, and indeed that is when the policy was established. The Minister may attempt to distance himself from something that is not the responsibility of the UK Government and hide behind that, but it was their responsibility originally, and that left a legacy that has given Scotland significant advantages. There is no equivalent of the £3 bus fare for the Isles of Scilly—it is a £120 return, as we have just heard. There is no subsidised air travel, either. The entire economy depends very much on tourism, and tourism depends on travel.”
“I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who leads me on to my next point. Although he says that we are all in the same boat—if you will pardon the pun, Madam Deputy Speaker—the fact is that we are not. Services in Scotland are very heavily subsidised, as I will explain. When we look for parity and comparability, the services offered for the Isles of Scilly and for Scottish islands are significantly different. Of course, the Isles of Scilly have the additional challenge of being some 40 miles off the coast. I do not know how many miles the Isle of Wight is off the coast—is it 1.5, 2 or 3 miles? It is certainly a very short journey. In addition, because of the numbers of passengers going in that direction, the costs are obviously significantly less than for those on the Isles of Scilly.”
“I am grateful to the Minister for responding to the issues that I have raised previously and I hope that he will take on board the issues that I have raised today. I am delighted to say that the chair of the council of the Isles of Scilly, Councillor Robert Francis, is in the Public Gallery watching this debate, and he will be as keen as I am to continue the conversation with the Minister after the debate, as it is desperately important that we address the very serious transport challenges that Scillonians face.”
“The recommended policies that we ask the Minister to consider are: extending the powers under the Concessionary Bus Travel Act 2007 to classify inter-island boating as eligible public passenger transport; beginning a pilot scheme with the Isles of Scilly, perhaps during next winter; and seeing how we get on and evaluate it after a 12-month period. We could create an islands transport mechanism, equivalent to the Scottish air discount scheme or ferry support services, and establish a statutory footing for island-appropriate subsidy powers. We could provide emissions trading scheme transitional relief for lifeline routes and describe the service to the Isles of Scilly as such a route to prevent fare spikes when the ETS comes into force. We could also support harbour electrification for Penzance and St Mary’s.”
“I know that the Minister has responded, in correspondence and in meetings, about how the English national concessionary travel scheme is supposed to operate, but we do not have buses between the off-islands and the main island, so it is absurd to attempt to apply mainland, landlocked transport policies to a maritime environment such as the Isles of Scilly. I urge him to look at that again. He goes on to tell me that the local authority can provide concessions, but the council of the Isles of Scilly is struggling to survive, let alone being able to provide additional concessions for its transport services. I hope that the Minister will look again at these matters.”
“Initially, it will apply to vessels with a gross tonnage of over 5,000 from 1 June this year, and then to vessels with a gross tonnage of over 400 from 2028, which will add cost to the service. It would be helpful if the Minister talked to the steamship company, but I know that he is addressing this issue, which is very helpful—I do appreciate that. Help has been provided. As part of the previous Government’s levelling-up programme, £48.4 million was offered to create a new vessel. Indeed, when I was elected other subsidies were available, but unfortunately it was not always possible to get the operator of the service—the steamship company—to agree to use those funds in the way that they were offered.”
“When I was last in Parliament, the European geostationary navigation overlay service system—Europe’s satellite-based augmentation system that ensures safe use of the services—was in operation. One of the many so-called Brexit benefits is that we can no longer use the European safe satellite system. It has been withdrawn, so the services have become less resilient and more weather-dependent than they were just 10 years ago. So even where a system is in operation, it is struggling. The Minister will also know that the Isles of Scilly Steamship Company has expressed concern about the expansion of the emissions trading scheme. While we want to have cleaner atmospheres, the question is about the proportionate impact this scheme is likely to have.”
“It recognises that improving transport connectivity is a “major challenge”—that is an understatement—and aims to make the islands more self-sufficient and resilient to future changes, including in relation to transport connectivity and between the islands. There are other matters that complicate and worsen the situation for the Isles of Scilly. Its council is responsible for running the airport. It is a very small council, with a budget of £8.8 million, but it has to run a fully regulated airport, which is a lifeline service. I understand that its landing fees are due to increase 18% this year simply to meet the pure costs of the regulatory challenges. The transport operators are complaining about this, and understandably so—it is a great expense.”
“I have referred already to inter-island transport and the costs and made comparisons with the subsidies available to local authorities and passengers elsewhere. As I say, there is not an equivalent to the £3 bus fare, nor is there free transport for older people. This means that islanders have a significantly increased cost of living. While the Isles of Scilly council is responsible for transport and the economic strategy as a member of the Isles of Scilly transport board, which also includes representatives of the transport providers and business groups, the council’s strategic economic plan—“Island Futures”—includes a core aim to “improve transport connectivity across the islands and to the mainland”. In relation to connectivity, the strategy aims to secure “resilient, year-round transport services to Cornwall and further afield”.”
“It is worth saying that most ferry services in England, such as the ferries to the Isle of Wight, are operated by private operators, just as they are on the Isles of Scilly, and receive no central Government grant or funding. There are other examples of publicly owned ferries in the UK, and between the UK and the Isle of Man. On Merseyside, Mersey Ferries is effectively owned by the local transport authority, Liverpool City Region combined authority. In 2018, the Government of the Isle of Man brought into public ownership the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company, which operates ferries between the Isle of Man, the UK and Ireland. The Isle of Man Government do not control the day-to-day running of the company’s ferries, but they do own a 100% stake in its parent company.”
“The ISSG offers concessionary fares for islanders through its “travel club”, as it calls it, which is a way of building and rewarding loyalty. However, it is seen by others that somehow this service is being subsidised by visitors to the islands. We do not want to get into a situation where we discourage visitors to the islands. However, it is worth pointing out—I checked this online today—that if we were to book a return fare on the ferry from Penzance to the Isles of Scilly, which is a three-hour journey, more or less, on a 40 mile trip, that would cost around £220. If we were to catch a ferry from Mallaig to Canna, approximately 30 miles in Scotland, that journey would cost £14.20. If we were to go from Kennacraig to Port Askaig—Isla—the two-hour journey would cost £18. The comparison is something on which we need to reflect.”
“The Isles of Scilly Steamship Group, the primary operator of the transport services to the Isles of Scilly, operates Scillonian III, which is now in its 49th year and will be replaced next year by the Scillonian IV. Indeed, it was purchased in the 1960s with a Government loan of £1 million during the period when Harold Wilson, who was a resident of St Mary’s, was Prime Minister. That did help the company purchase that vessel at that time. As the Minister will know, Harold Wilson is buried on St Mary’s, and his love and affection for the islands are well known. The ISSG operates that important lifeline link to the Isles of Scilly, but only during the summer months; it cannot operate during the winter because of the inclement conditions.”
“The Scottish Government have supported the sector since the 1960s. They have been obliged to tender for services since the late 1990s, to comply with state aid regulations. That has altered the ownership structures of what remains a state owned and operated set of services. Approximately 70% of CalMac’s revenues come from the Scottish Government. It is often said that for every pound paid by a ferry user, another £2 of public subsidy is required. By contrast, passenger services between the mainland and the Isles of Scilly have always been operated on a commercial basis, with the exception of during the covid pandemic, when, like all companies around the country, it was subsidised. Certainly, this was seen as a lifeline service by the Government.”
“I am pleased that the hon. Member and his family have strong connections with the islands, but I caution him against describing them as the Scilly Isles—he will not be well received on the islands if he uses that particular nomenclature—but, certainly, if he continues to call them the Isles of Scilly, I am sure that he will be very well received. His offer of working with me and the islanders—the Scillonians—will also be well received, and I am very grateful to him for it. Transport Scotland, an agency of the Scottish Government, subsidises most routes to islands in the Hebrides through a contract with Caledonian MacBrayne —CalMac—which is owned by the Scottish Government. The islands are also served by several other routes, some of which are subsidised by local authorities, and a handful are served without subsidy by private operators.”
“To a certain extent, the Minister has implied the answer to this, but of course he is well aware that a bus cannot drive between the off-islands and St Mary’s—though there might be some inventive way in which someone could do such a thing. He must accept that if one is looking for parity between the Isles of Scilly and the mainland, one must recognise that we cannot have an open bus service. There are boats and launches that go between the islands—and yes, anyone can use them. Surely there must be a way of finding a parallel for the Isles of Scilly.”
“I am grateful for that clarification; I am sure that it will be music to the ears of the steamship company. Going back to the point about Artemis, which is exciting—I congratulate the Government for investing in it—is there any indication of the timescale for any roll-out that might benefit the Isles of Scilly?”
“On Monday, it was my privilege to visit the Helston sorting office, where I discovered staff burdened with remote, counterproductive micromanagement of their work and inadequate plans to deal with the inevitability of staff absences. I was distressed to hear them describe that they had been abused and threatened when undertaking their work on the frontline. Does the Minister agree that frontline workers should be praised and have management systems that empower them to resolve matters locally?”
“The hon. Member mentioned Storm Goretti. She and I attended the online meeting on storm recovery with Ministers two days after the event. What troubled me in that meeting was the culture that exists among service providers, and indeed Government Departments, of always seeking to reassure Ministers that everything is under control and presenting a very different picture from the one that I was seeing on the ground in west Cornwall, where my constituency was the worst hit. Does she agree that, following Storm Goretti, we need to ensure that we genuinely learn lessons about what actually happened on the ground and how we can recover best and put the right resources in place to help communities in future?”
“I am grateful to the Minister for that response, and I should declare an interest as the chair of the British Association for the Reunification of the Parthenon Sculptures over the last 20 years. The British Museum’s planned redevelopment will necessitate its board agreeing the relocation of many of its exhibits, including the Parthenon sculptures. In the light of that, it is suggested that the time is right for the museum, with the consent and constructive support of Government, to facilitate an exhibition of those sculptures in the Acropolis Museum in Athens where they can be displayed alongside other artefacts. Does the Minister agree that should such a project be agreed by the museum, it would enhance the reputation of the United Kingdom as it would be seen as a gracious act between two nations that are long-term international allies?”
“I welcome the statement, and I welcomed the opportunity to meet the Minister to discuss these issues. A lot of people are talking about either reopening post offices—indeed, the Post Office want to see them reopen—or avoiding closure, and he knows that it all comes down to remuneration. As he will have heard, a post office operator needs to sell at least 450 stamps every hour just to achieve the national minimum wage level of remuneration. That clearly is the reason why in Porthleven and Newlyn, where the Post Office want to reopen post offices, no one is interested in taking on those services. What can the Government do to ensure that the remuneration is sufficient to ensure that the network targets he has outlined can be achieved?”
“I strongly support the points the hon. Gentleman is making in advancing his case. I am slightly worried about the expression “in the region”. We need to get medical workers into Gaza to make sure they can safely deploy their skills in the area. We are long past the time when the Israeli regime could justify its actions in terms of self-defence. The best way to achieve safe passage for medical aid workers in the area is to get the IDF out and get international peacekeepers in.”
“The hon. Lady is making a magnificent contribution to the debate. The hon. Member for Stroud (Dr Opher) talked about the imminent departure of aid agencies from Gaza, which has been forced by the Israeli regime. A lot of international aid workers have been into Gaza—one from Cornwall, Jim Henderson, was killed by the IDF in 2024. Does the hon. Lady accept that we need to open up Gaza to those aid workers and to get the IDF out?”
“Minor injuries units are being phased out as are urgent treatment centres such as the brilliant one at West Cornwall hospital in my constituency—its hours were cut under the Conservatives, and have not been restored. Those units clearly help to take the pressure off ambulance and emergency services, so what will Ministers do to ensure that those services are reinforced rather than reduced?”
“The hon. Lady is making a very strong point about evidence-based policymaking. She will be aware of the truism of what we do in this place: that we need to draw lines in legislation between freedoms and responsibilities, and in this case between rights and public protection. She acknowledges that the Government should certainly keep the matter under review and that they have come forward with a set of proposals; but, like many other speakers, she seems to be opposed to this particular proposal. Does she agree that the Government should have the opportunity to at least review the policies? Is she effectively saying that the Government need to go back to the drawing board and look at the matter again?”
“T2. Ministers know full well that a planning application submitted today for affordable homes will not contribute to the Government’s welcome intention to meet affordable housing need by the end of this Parliament—”
“The Minister is shaking his head, but it simply is not possible through the pre-development process. Although I have met the Secretary of State to discuss how we can move forward shovel-ready projects that are held back at the moment, will Ministers meet Members of Parliament who are concerned about the thousands of homes that could be delivered and start on site right now, so that we can get Britain building and meet the desperate need for affordable homes?”
“The Minister has referred to a local transport grant that is of course not available to the Isles of Scilly in my constituency, because it is not deemed to be a local transport authority. Attending medical appointments for my constituents from off-islands on a day like today would cost them £120 return. The Secretary of State has said that she is meeting fellow Members from Cornwall. Will she ensure that that meeting is on a cross-party basis, so that I can raise the serious transport problems on the Isles of Scilly?”
“Will he ensure that the House of Lords is there purely to scrutinise and revise legislation, and not to block and frustrate this House, which is the primary and democratic Chamber?”
“[That this House believes that the use of filibuster tactics in the House of Lords to frustrate the majority will of the democratically elected House of Commons is unacceptable, including where the elected Commons has given its majority support to a Private Members’ Bill; further believes that the case for the outright abolition of the House of Lords and its replacement would be strengthened if such tactics were used; acknowledges that, although the House of Lords often provides a helpful role through scrutinising and suggesting constructive revisions to bills, it should not have the power to block them, nor to use its procedures to the same effect; and calls on the Government to take legislative steps to ensure that Private Members' Bills backed by a majority in the elected House can never be defeated by undemocratic means in the House of Lords.] The Leader of the House will be aware that some Members of the other place have abused the privilege and procedures of that House in order to frustrate and block a private Member’s Bill that has the strong support of this House, thereby advancing the case for their abolition and replacement.”