Andrew George
MP for St Ives · Liberal Democrat · United Kingdom
“After all, the current situation regarding coercion and safeguarding is certainly not satisfactory. The Bill provides safeguards where presently there are none.”
“I am sorry to be stirring up Members at this stage of the debate, particularly as time is very short. Another theme is that people somehow believe that there is a binary choice available to us on palliative care: that we should either have 100% palliative care, or can go down the route of backing the Bill—or rather, that we should not sup…”
“It is an honour to be called to speak in this debate. Indeed, it is the first time that I have. I am a sponsor of the Bill and a member of the Health and Social Care Committee. I congratulate the hon. Member for Rochester and Strood (Lauren Edwards) on how she introduced this debate, and the hon.”
“Defeating the Bill would also reward the worst of the reprehensible behaviour of those in the other place who blocked this legislation last time.”
“I am sorry, but because of time, I will not. If the hon. Member wants, he can send me a postcard with the answer to my question: when have we ever had a perfect piece of legislation?”
“I cannot give way, because of the time constraints. All Bills are necessarily a compromise. That does not mean that we simply have to make do with bad legislation, but the Bill that was sent down to the other place was in fact an excellent compromise that actually achieved all of the matters—”
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“As an Oliver Cromwell enthusiast, will the Leader of the House find time for a debate on the purpose and function of the other place? I am sure that he will have studied very closely the wording of early-day motion 2709, which addresses the role of the House of Lords.”
“I just hope that the Government will stop doing the minimum they can get away with—stop the trading, stop the excusing, stop the support of the Israeli regime—because it is in the interests of the international world order, of the Palestinians and Palestine, and of Israel itself to get this sorted.”
“Of course, the horrors of 7 October 2023 were absolutely appalling, but we all need to reflect on the overwhelming response of the Netanyahu regime, which has taken such advantage of the opportunity for retribution. This is not just about the mass murder in Gaza itself but, as Members have said, about the murder of our aid workers, including Cornish aid worker Jim Henderson. The right hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) said that the strikes have been careful, but they have not been careful; the strikes have been indiscriminate and certainly amount to clear murder.”
“I will be brief, Madam Deputy Speaker. I congratulate the hon. Member for Argyll, Bute and South Lochaber (Brendan O’Hara) on bringing this issue to the House. I was worried that we would concentrate primarily on the jurisprudence—on the merits of the arguments over whether the threshold in the definition has been reached. We are politicians and do not have—I certainly do not have—the skillset to make such an analysis. I find that arguments are advanced, as they were by the hon. Member for Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket (Peter Prinsley)—very eloquently, of course—that engage in the political sophistry of the issue itself, and that worries me. The bottom line is that what has been happening in the middle east is appalling, and the level of death and destruction has shocked the world.”
“I am very grateful to the Minister for coming to Cornwall last week and visiting my constituency, which was noted and very much appreciated. He will know that west Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly took the brunt of Storm Goretti, and we have many lessons to learn, not least the point made by the right hon. Member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale (David Mundell) about our—I think, evangelical—faith in modern systems and technologies, which have made us more dependent and less resilient. When we are learning such lessons, will the Minister make sure that it is not simply left to local authorities to do so, but that they are learned across the UK?”
“Many of them, certainly from my area and my generation, became well-established members of the fishing community, from a very small base. I hope that that opportunity will still arise. Finally, I hope that the Minister will consider how ultra low-impact fishing can be further incentivised and supported. I know one fisherman on St Agnes, one of the Isles of Scilly, who uses a sail—no engine and no plastic. He is doing his best to tick all the boxes and use a low-impact fishing method. Because he fishes for lobster, he has had a really difficult year as a result of the octopus bloom. He tells me that in spite of trying to do what society is encouraging fishermen to do, going the extra mile and being as sustainable as possible, he finds that he is over-regulated and that there are no incentives for him.”
“I have been a strong supporter of the Young Fishermen Network, which is based in Cornwall, since it was established. Matilda Phillips from my constituency has been pressing its case very strongly. I hope that the Minister will look at its manifesto. There is a degree of absurdity here: we are recruiting new fishermen into the industry, but they are not allowed to go to sea under the age of 16. In the past, that was one way in which they could experience fishing. It can be done safely: one can regulate and put in the safeguards to ensure that it is done safely. I certainly went to sea well before I was 16. I did not go into the fishing industry, but I know many others who did. It encouraged them and provided them with a strong base. It also gave them ways to buy into the industry by getting in at the smaller, artisanal stage.”
“On the so-called benefits of the EU-UK trade negotiations, we were assured that the export of fish from this country would be made smoother, more transparent and easier, and that the administrative regulations applying to it would be less burdensome. When I have spoken in recent weeks to exporters in my constituency, they have told me the opposite: it has now become more burdensome. In the interests of time, I will write to the Minister rather than going through the technical detail now, but it is important that the sanitary and phytosanitary changes that have been brought in be properly understood. They seem to have created new impediments rather than resolving things. The hon. Member for South East Cornwall referred to the importance of the next generation of fishermen.”
“Doing so would have given the British Government a bargaining chip at that stage. As we missed that opportunity, will the Minister assure us that she agrees that that would be a sensible method of going forward? After all, it protects the inshore fishing grounds; it safeguards, or helps to safeguard, the marine environment; it supports a viable inshore fishing industry; it reduces the impacts from larger vessels coming into the 6 to 12-mile zone; and it provides an enforceable management tool, because it is already established. If she or the Government failed to take the opportunity of introducing it then, does she now accept that it would be a good management tool? Will she ensure that she presses for it?”
“Is it because we are outside the pre-negotiations that happen within the EU, during which proposals can be fine-tuned? Were we simply caught out at the last minute? The hon. Member for South East Cornwall referred to the difficulties within the 6 to 12-mile zone and the fact that, in spite of everything, the Government have acceded by permitting foreign vessels with historical entitlement to continue fishing within the zone for another 12 years. She will know that the industry is arguing strongly, certainly in Cornwall and on the Isles of Scilly. Why we do not apply to those waters the same 221 kW engine power limit that applies within the 6-mile limit? Why was that not proposed as a countermeasure to what was thrown on the table by the EU at the last minute?”
“My right hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) referred to the negotiations. At the end of last year, we were somewhat shocked that the Government accepted rules from the EU that will govern how British fishermen can work in British waters, and that it seems they were changed at short notice and without any consultation. These were technical measures that will affect British fishermen in their own waters. Surely that runs contrary to everything that we were assured Brexit would give the UK—the sunlit uplands in which we would be able to decide for ourselves how we manage our stocks and manage our industry. Will the Minister explain how that happened? Why was the industry not consulted about those changes? Why did they happen at such short notice?”
“Should we use the shock of putting it straight into boiling water—we are talking about the ’60s and ’70s, when we did not have the science behind us—or was it more humane to warm the water gently? I was only a child at the time, but I am sure that with the acute hearing of a child I sensed the lobsters screaming. At least we now have the science to tell us that lobsters are sentient beings. I am pleased that the animal welfare strategy acknowledges that we need to move things forward. I welcome its commitment to publish guidance clarifying whether live boiling is an acceptable killing method and whether any legislative arrangements or amendments are needed in respect of the supply chain review. That is relevant to the industry, as an adjunct to this debate: it would be helpful to inform fishermen about how the supply chain will work.”
“We believe that that is a very good way of ensuring that funding gets to the places it might not reach if it were simply held and managed centrally. I have been to quite a few debates like this one, including during my previous life in the House. I have been reflecting, particularly as the Government have published the animal welfare strategy, on my early days in the fishing industry. My family had a boat down in Mullion harbour. In the summer months, we used crab and lobster pots and did a bit of mackerel handlining to supplement the farm income. I remember that on the few occasions on which we were able to keep a lobster for ourselves rather than having to sell it, my parents debated the best way of killing it.”
“Meur ras, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for South East Cornwall (Anna Gelderd), a Cornish colleague who is a very strong advocate for Looe and the fishing communities around her constituency’s coast. I want to emphasise a point that she made about the fishing and coastal growth fund. As the Minister will be aware, the fishing industry is seeking not only engagement and consultation from the Government prior to the announcement, which we expect in April or May—perhaps she will tell us—but full consultation on the proposals. She knows that Cornish colleagues have endorsed and reinforced the case that the Cornish Fish Producers’ Organisation has made for a delegated fund of £10 million for small projects.”
“I am very grateful to the Minister for coming to Newlyn, which is in my constituency, and for listening to the industry. The Cornish Fish Producers’ Organisation proposes a dedicated fund of £10 million, and wants to ensure that it works with the Government to agree on a strategy to develop the industry over the next decade, including through the recruitment of new, younger fishermen.”
“As my hon. Friend knows, I strongly support his proposed legislation; indeed, I am a sponsor of it. Does he agree that, in order to advance new regulations, the Government need to review whether there is sufficient bridleway capacity across the countryside to avoid the necessity of using roads? It is clear that there are insufficient bridleways across much of the countryside, which is why riders end up having to use the roads to traverse.”
“How can they do that if they are completely cut off? I must therefore ask the Minister: why have the Government not considered or viewed this as a national emergency? What additional support will the Government provide beyond the compensation that utility providers are obliged to provide? Will the Government review the Bellwin funding formula, which seems designed not to help neither very small authorities, such as the Isles of Scilly, nor very large ones, such as Cornwall? Finally, will the Government agree to review the resilience of systems that provide a means of communicating in such circumstances?”
“Frontline workers have been amazing and communities have come together incredibly well, but in spite of the Minister’s optimism, I have discovered that utility company reports of figures for reconnected homes are unreliable. I have also discovered that our society is more reliant on these utilities and services, and less resilient. Many places affected by these outages have not been able to communicate because all power, broadband and mobile signal had been cut. Higher authorities decided to turn off the analogue signal some time ago, and that has meant that people in vulnerable positions have not been able to communicate their vulnerability. That is a serious matter, particularly for people who are traumatised and isolated. Service providers have told people to phone or follow advice on their website or just click the app.”
“I thank the Minister for his reply. He has described the impact that the storm has had on our communities. As he rightly says, west Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly took the brunt of the storm, but it nevertheless had a devastating effect throughout Cornwall, south-west England and beyond. Nursing home patients were evacuated with haste, homes were without power for many days, and thousands of vulnerable people were isolated—indeed, they still are. Many residents in my constituency have observed that if this same level of destruction, service outage and loss of life had happened in London and the home counties, the national media would have given it headline billing for days and the Government would have declared a national emergency.”
“It is a very difficult administrative scheme to follow through. It does create some administrative pressures on the small businesses that operate it, but I hope the Minister will accept the request to review both the amount of the discount and the geography on the basis of evidence of need.”
“Obviously, the case for the discount was made—the unfairness was acknowledged—and in March 2012, it was brought in. The pilot schemes were established, including on the Isles of Scilly as I mentioned. In October 2013, the project was, as promised, reviewed and it was identified to be working well, so the Government announced that they were going to expand the schemes to 17 additional rural areas in May 2015. I raised a petition to make west Cornwall one of those areas. It got 2,500 signatures, and I presented it to Parliament in December 2013, but unfortunately the Government did not agree to do that in August 2014, which was a pity. I do hope the Government will look at an extension. There is still a cost difference between the Isles of Scilly and the mainland in excess of 30p per litre.”
“Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) and Alan Reid from the Scottish islands made a very strong case for the importance of seeking equity in this regard, not only in terms of fuel duty but in relation to private car users and to community bus users and projects. After that campaigning, I was pleased that the coalition Government agreed with the Liberal Democrat policy of investigating, as they put it, measures to help with fuel costs in remote rural areas, starting with pilot schemes. Indeed, in October 2010, they announced a 5p fuel duty discount for Scottish islands and the Isles of Scilly. In those days, that of course required EU approval—even post Brexit, any kind of parafiscal support or state-aid issue still requires some consideration and regulation, because it needs to meet competition rules.”
“Those same people may ask if it does not contradict everything we are campaigning for when we say that we want to reduce fuel costs. It is not. This is about geographic equity across the country. It is about wanting to make sure that in addressing the cost of living crisis, which has been going on for many years, we also address the geographic inequity in the prices that end up being charged in such remote and rural locations. It is not relevant to undermine the case in any way by comparing it with the vital campaign to combat climate change. To go into the prehistory of it, on 8 January 2002 and 15 January 2003, I brought debates to the Westminster Hall Chamber on the issue of rural and island transport. Indeed, my right hon.”
“He basically takes tanks over to the supermarket in Penzance and has them ferried back, so he is buying fuel at retail prices and selling it on. We can see that it is and has been impossible for him and his business to be in any way competitive in those circumstances, and he has had to transfer the fuel to local people on the islands without taking much of a cut to cover the costs of freight and providing the service. We can see how difficult it is to provide this service in such locations. It is also worth reflecting on the justification for the relief, because it is all about equity and fairness. I know that some people will say, “Hang on, are you not campaigning to combat climate change?” Indeed I am, as are others present here today.”
“One of the places that was originally designated to receive rural fuel duty relief was the Isles of Scilly in my constituency, and I campaigned for it at the time. When the relief was announced in March 2012, it was very welcome. However, I am afraid that having comparison apps on the Isles of Scilly is pretty meaningless because there is only one pump and no competition. I do not think it can be argued that the monopoly supplier is taking advantage of that monopoly, because it is very much keyed into the community and has been running it as a public service. When the relief scheme was originally established, I asked the supplier, Ian Sibley of Sibley’s, which provides fuel for road use as well as for marine use on the Isles of Scilly, how he obtained his fuel.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under you, Ms Furniss. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North Devon (Ian Roome) on securing this debate and making a very strong case, of which I hope the Minister will take heed. I will return to some of the prehistory, because I have campaigned on this issue for so long. I congratulate my hon. Friends the Members for North Cornwall (Ben Maguire) and for Honiton and Sidmouth (Richard Foord), and the hon. Members for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Torcuil Crichton), for reinforcing the very strong points advanced by my hon. Friend the Member for North Devon in his opening remarks. My hon. Friend the Member for Newton Abbot (Martin Wrigley) made an interesting intervention about useful pump comparison apps and sites.”
“The Minister raised the issue of the administrative burden. I was referring to an occasion when an operator of the scheme was late in his submission to HMRC, in which case he was refused the rebate, which he had been taking. In such circumstances, he had to appeal. I was simply demonstrating the rigidity and lack of humour, as it were, in the system. We are talking about extremely small businesses that find the additional administrative burden quite onerous.”
“On the question of geographical coverage, and given the Minister’s comment that he has not received representations about further areas for inclusion, I urge the Government to review the scheme and to take an objective measure themselves of where else it might extend to, rather than inviting us to form an orderly queue in pleading for our own areas, which could result in a system based not on need, but on political advantage.”
“T6. Season’s greetings, Mr Speaker. In October, a Censuswide survey of 200 farms showed that 76% felt under financial pressure from supermarket buying practices, and seven in 10 thought that the buying relationship between supermarkets and farmers had worsened in the past two years. When will the Government publish the outcome of the Groceries Code Adjudicator consultation, which took place in the summer, and bring forward regulations to improve that relationship and protect farmers?”
“The Minister constantly says that she does not recognise the figures when presented with what are expected to be the settlements for certain local authorities. That is possibly because we are fumbling in the dark today, as the figures simply are not available. I had to go to the Vote Office, and I have some of the papers here. The fact is that in my own area, the Government have proposed a bespoke arrangement for the Council of the Isles of Scilly, but there is no clarity about what it will mean in the forthcoming years, and in respect of the indices of deprivation, there is no clarity on what it means for Cornwall. Will the Minister meet me, and other local Members, to discuss these issues?”
“Although it may seem a little tangential, will the scope of the investigation include the fact that hundreds of thousands of people who have worked in this country for 20, 30 or 40 years and who have paid their taxes are unable to influence the outcome of elections because they have an EU passport, yet hundreds of thousands of ex-pats who have not set foot in this country for decades still have an influence? Unscrupulous parties could hoover up those ex-pats and direct them towards marginal seats, thus influencing the outcome of elections. Will the Secretary of State address this issue, either through the review or the Bill?”
“The Minister must accept that house building targets are a means to an end, not an end in themselves. House building targets are based on a naive delusion that private developers will collude with Government in driving down the price of their final product, which surely cannot be the case. Cornwall is not a nimby location; we have grown faster than almost anywhere else in the United Kingdom. Despite almost trebling our housing stock in the past 60 years, the housing need of local communities is greater now. Will the Minister therefore consider that some local authorities, where simply setting targets is not the answer, should be given the tools to meet need rather than developers’ greed?”
“I strongly endorse the Secretary of State’s emphasis on the importance of vaccination, not least to protect the resilience of frontline NHS staff and face down the anti-vaxxers and vaccine-hesitant. Nevertheless, will he reflect carefully on his emphasis on the shift from hospital to community at this time, given that emergency departments are still in crisis and corridor care is still a norm across much of the country?”
“Further to the excellent campaigning and question by my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Josh Babarinde) and the brilliant question from my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dunbartonshire (Susan Murray), will the Minister say a bit more about preventing or at least reducing repeat offending? Specifically, will the strategy introduce a domestic violence register and make it as retrospective as possible?”
“I congratulate the hon. Member on the way he is articulating the case for Fairtrade. It is important that it is robust and traceable and has strong integrity, but if we are to scale up, should we not also integrate international Fairtrade standards into the Groceries Code Adjudicator, which is part of UK legislation? After all, the GCA is looking only at the final supplier to the large supermarkets in this country. If we can establish a strong relationship between international Fairtrade and the Groceries Code Adjudicator, which is currently under review, would that not be another step forward?”
“I am dreadfully sorry to ask, but is the hon. Gentleman aware that those who are campaigning for Fairtrade believe that it can succeed properly only if this Government lead the way with their official development assistance budget, which has been severely cut? Does he agree that to achieve the aims that we all want to achieve, the Government need to look at their ODA budget? I cannot see how we can help countries enough if do it purely through trade.”
“I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement and the manner in which he has been handling the issue. However, I want to ask him about the way he summarised the position at the end of his statement. He presented it as a choice between striking and having more jobs and the other parts of the offer. I seek clarity on the matter. Is he genuinely saying that he is going to withdraw that? Was that purely for oratorical effect, or is that his negotiating position?”
“The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urge the Government to bring forward measures to ensure a network of accessible full-time banks throughout the UK and in every market town, and to call on Lloyd’s to keep its Penzance branch open. And the petitioners remain, etc. [P003148]”
“The petition states: The petition of residents of the constituency of St Ives, Declares that the decision by Lloyd’s bank to close its Penzance branch will have a severe and detrimental impact on older and disabled people, local businesses and on the digitally excluded; further declares that Lloyd’s has been established at the iconic Market House in the centre of the town for one hundred years and local people have appreciated the work of the staff and the service provided; and further declares that banking services should not be limited to being accessed electronically, by telephone, at Post Office counters and through the limited services and hours of Banking Hubs.”
“I rise to present a petition on behalf of the people of the Penzance area, 3,000 of whom have already signed a public version to oppose the closure of the Lloyds bank, which is located in the iconic market house in the centre of Market Jew Street. The decision has been taken without any local consultation whatsoever. The significant impact on the vulnerable, on businesses and charities with complex transactions, and on the digitally excluded has not been taken into account. The petitioners observe that Lloyds was bailed out to the tune of £37 billion of taxpayers’ money during the financial crisis, yet it treats the town in this manner without any consultation, leaving customers with a two-hour bus journey to the nearest branch in Truro.”
“I congratulate the right hon. Member on the report. As I am sure he knows, I responded to his request for comment. My question is about the security of financial services. He says that diversification is one of the solutions to the risk of cyber- attack. My worry is that, if we put all our eggs into the basket of an increasingly electronic-based financial services market where high street banks retreat behind electronic walls, that does not just result in vulnerable and digitally-excluded customers struggling to access financial services, but creates a big national risk. It is a problem for our communities where banks are retreating—in Cornwall, there will be only one Lloyds bank left next year—and for the security of the nation as well.”
“T4. Cornwall is not a nimby location. It has almost trebled its housing stock in the last 60 years, and it is one of the fastest growing places in the United Kingdom. Yet despite all that, the housing problems of local people have got worse. As the Government impose housing targets on local authorities, what will they do to ensure that the local authority in Cornwall has the power to deliver the homes that we need, rather than delivering for developers’ greed?”
“I congratulate my hon. Friends on the Minister’s side of the House and endorse everything that they have said on this issue. As the Minister will be aware, Cornwall has its own industrial strategy, which harmonises with the Government’s ambition and includes the space sector, green energy and geothermal. Will he ensure that the Government back the Cornish industrial strategy so that we can crack on with delivering the critical minerals strategy, and indeed all other aspects of the Cornish industrial strategy?”
“The hon. Gentleman referred to the powers that are being devolved to mayors, but does he accept that the mayors referred to in clause 38 and schedule 19 have different powers from the London Mayor? In effect, those mayors will become puppets of central Government, because their local growth plans will have to be signed off by the Secretary of State, whereas the London Mayor is not answerable to the Government. Is that a matter of great concern to him?”
“Meur ras! I just wanted to address the tone of the hon. Gentleman’s speech. All six Cornish Members are clear about the fact that, for us, this is not about cutting ourselves off, but about cutting ourselves into the celebration of diversity. It is a positive, forward-looking proposal on behalf of Cornwall, based on our unique cultural and historic past, and it is not born out of anger and resentment: it is important for that to be understood.”
“Rather than cut ourselves off, we need to cut ourselves into the celebration of diversity, and use our identity as a strength that helps us to look forward. Indeed, we had a very welcome statement earlier on the Government’s critical minerals strategy, and Cornwall can and should be looking forward with all our strengths in the space sector, critical minerals and green energy. We have a lot to look forward to, but we need to have a basis of confidence on what to do.”
“The fact is, the last person who could not speak English died nearly 200 years ago. There has recently been a great deal of coming together to recognise the importance of identity and our Celtic past. Indeed, I have spoken about the Cornish language with Breton friends, and found that there is a stronger association between Cornwall and Brittany than between Cornwall and Wales, from which we were separated by the Saxons some 1,500 years ago. Indeed, Athelstan drew the line between Cornwall and England in 936 because he felt that the Cornish were not worth the effort of inevitable annihilation. All that history is interesting and relevant, and feeds one’s understanding of who one is, but as I said in an intervention, I am not interested in being backward-looking or insular.”
“If we are not to go in the direction of breaking down all barriers and having one world government, with no distinction between one place and another, we must recognise the tipping point—the difference between English counties and Cornwall, which is a rather unique place that, as he and I believe, needs to be given special consideration. Like my hon. Friend, I describe myself as Cornish and not English. That is not being anti-English; I am proud of my relationship with England, as all Cornish people are, but we as a people have a separate history. We start our contributions to these debates by saying “Meur ras”, to introduce the Cornish language. Although not many people in Cornwall speak the Cornish language now, not many people in Scotland speak Scottish Gaelic, but that is not to say that Scots are less Scottish because of that.”
“The question is often asked: why is Cornwall asking for more consideration than other places? The answer is in part, as my hon. Friend the Member for Camborne and Redruth said, that special legislation and regulations apply to us; there is our national minority status, recognition of the Cornish language, the existence of the duchy, and its separate constitutional relationship with the Crown. Of course, all places are the result of the accidents of history and geography, and in Cornwall, there is a confluence of the two.”
“It is interesting to follow the hon. Member for Isle of Wight East (Joe Robertson). I also have ferries in my constituency, but I have not tabled amendments to deal with them in a Bill about devolution. I will return to the Cornish question raised by the hon. Member for Camborne and Redruth (Perran Moon)—I will call him my hon. Friend. I will concentrate on whether it is appropriate to deal with the idiosyncrasies around the country in the way that he proposes in new clause 70, or in the way that I have done in amendments 175 and 176—our amendments would treat Cornwall as an exception—or whether the issue should be treated as a matter of principle, as my hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Tom Gordon) has done in new clause 28. I accept that everywhere is special and unique.”