Andrew George
MP for St Ives · Liberal Democrat · United Kingdom
“After all, the current situation regarding coercion and safeguarding is certainly not satisfactory. The Bill provides safeguards where presently there are none.”
“I am sorry to be stirring up Members at this stage of the debate, particularly as time is very short. Another theme is that people somehow believe that there is a binary choice available to us on palliative care: that we should either have 100% palliative care, or can go down the route of backing the Bill—or rather, that we should not sup…”
“It is an honour to be called to speak in this debate. Indeed, it is the first time that I have. I am a sponsor of the Bill and a member of the Health and Social Care Committee. I congratulate the hon. Member for Rochester and Strood (Lauren Edwards) on how she introduced this debate, and the hon.”
“Defeating the Bill would also reward the worst of the reprehensible behaviour of those in the other place who blocked this legislation last time.”
“I am sorry, but because of time, I will not. If the hon. Member wants, he can send me a postcard with the answer to my question: when have we ever had a perfect piece of legislation?”
“I cannot give way, because of the time constraints. All Bills are necessarily a compromise. That does not mean that we simply have to make do with bad legislation, but the Bill that was sent down to the other place was in fact an excellent compromise that actually achieved all of the matters—”
The complete record
Every one of 603 lines we hold for Andrew George, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 9 of 13.
“Q9. Over the past 10 years, more than £500 million has been handed to holiday home owners in Cornwall through various tax loopholes, while local families are being evicted from their homes to make way for yet more holiday homes. As the housing crisis worsens, the six Cornwall MPs are determined to reverse this situation and address the issues before the end of this Parliament. Will the Prime Minister agree to meet us, so that we get the full backing of Government and deliver first, rather than second, homes for the good of Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly?”
“The Netanyahu regime continues to seek to justify its cold-blooded slaughter of Palestinian people behind the dishonest façade of self-defence. While the Minister asserts that the Government are taking an even-handed approach in this regard, he will remember that only two months ago the UK military intervened to protect innocent life in Israel by intercepting bombs. Taking on board the passions in the Chamber, the question is about equivalence. What actions have the Government taken to do the same for Palestinian people in Gaza?”
“In the far west of Cornwall, in a medical emergency we cannot look for additional support from the north, west or south, because it is sea. The urgent treatment centre at Penzance hospital was closed two and a half years ago, under the Conservatives, adding pressure to the only emergency department for the next 100 miles, which is in Truro, and the out-of-hours doctor service has no doctors. The Minister mentioned in her statement that the NHS urgent and emergency care tiering programme is able to help. Will she use her influence to reopen the urgent treatment centre so that we can have a 24/7 emergency service in the far west of Cornwall?”
“My constituency, which includes Penzance station, will be deeply affected. We are five hours away from Old Oak Common and will experience much of the pain with no gain. Just a fraction of the £67 billion being spent on HS2—for example, just one two-hundredth of that budget—could address the issue in Dawlish, which is three hours away from Penzance. Those kinds of things need to be addressed if we are to see some kind of compensation.”
“My hon. Friend is making an excellent case, as did our hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Max Wilkinson). Of course, his constituency of Honiton and Sidmouth is three and a half hours away from Penzance, so a 20-minute delay for people at Penzance is not necessarily the issue. It is the disruption, the uncertainty and all the other factors on the route that make the current service completely inadequate. That is really why we want to see investment in improvement, to bring the service up.”
“Further to the point made by the hon. Member for Exeter (Steve Race), is that not the nub of the argument? If the Government are to make the three shifts—including, importantly, the shift from hospital to community—they must not only stem the loss of pharmacies, but build them up.”
“The critical minerals strategy says: “We will reduce barriers to domestic exploration and extraction of critical minerals” and “Carry out cutting-edge research and development to solve the challenges in critical minerals supply chains…We will promote innovation and re-establish the UK as a centre of critical mineral and mining expertise.” But Cornish mining companies say that they face years of bureaucratic hurdles simply to get the Government to recognise their status as R&D-led companies, which is vital to their application for EIS tax relief. Does the Minister believe that the Government are doing all they can to enable that kind of research and development in the sector? I am delighted that the Minister will be coming to Cornwall next year; we will certainly give her a very warm welcome when she comes.”
“We would re-establish the industrial strategy council and put it on a statutory fitting to ensure vital oversight, monitoring and evaluation of the industrial strategy and to explore ways in which to improve interdepartmental work across Government. One business in Cornwall told us that the national wealth fund’s minimum project size is too high to suit mining exploration—the exploratory stage—which might have a detrimental impact on exploring new opportunities for mineral extraction in places such as Cornwall. If mining exploration does not happen, the much bigger extraction and processing projects cannot come forward. I therefore urge the Minister to look at that issue.”
“We would set up incentives for research and development, decarbonisation and the take-up of digital technologies, especially among SMEs. We would ensure that the UK’s regulatory, research and development, and tax frameworks are geared towards fostering innovation. We would set up a plan for investment in key infrastructure to enable the industrial strategy, covering areas including rail, building insulation, the national grid and electric vehicle charging. We would create a thriving manufacturing sector by investing in the skills of the future; promoting zero carbon transport and energy efficiency; harnessing affordable clean energy; and adopting an ambitious international trade policy.”
“The Liberal Democrats have called on the Government to develop a new industrial strategy to tackle the big challenges of our time—supercharging the green economy, boosting living standards, addressing regional inequalities and creating the conditions for sustainable growth. We would rebuild business and investor confidence by committing to fiscal responsibility, respect for international treaties and the creation of a stable business environment. We would effectively communicate the objectives and tools of the industrial strategy to industry, and provide clear signals for investment, as well as consistency and confidence for future business decisions. We would create broad access to training and skills for the purposes of developing apprenticeships.”
“Member for Camborne and Redruth to avoid the necessity of exporting the minerals extracted in the UK to the other side of the globe for refinement. The technologies need to be developed. As the hon. Member for Camborne and Redruth and others have emphasised, there is a great deal of skill, both academically and in terms of training, available in the local economy and through local colleges to develop those technologies, and to improve our chances of being able to take full advantage of the opportunities that lie ahead. They are exciting opportunities that I hope the Government will do their best to encourage.”
“There has been a lot of reference today to refining the products themselves, and one only has to look in the constituency of the hon. Member, as well as where I live in Hayle, to see the consequences of smelting for the environment. It was certainly known in the 19th century, when a lot of smelting went on in the town, how it impacted the health of people in the area. We have only to look at what is known in the area as scoria stone, which is an incredibly heavy and extremely brittle stone that was the by-product of the smelting process, to see the environmental impact of the process. It is really important, therefore, to use modern technologies in the UK to ensure that it does not have those detrimental impacts, on both the health of the people living nearby and the environment, if the UK is to achieve the objective proposed by the hon.”
“For example, only recently it was detected that the little ringed plover, which is a particularly vulnerable species, is now breeding in what was originally the clay wastes of the clay country, and within the area where lithium is likely to be extracted in the future. In other words, it is possible for those extractive industries and nature conservationists to work together and accommodate each other within the same environment. As we go forward it is really important that that conversation goes on. Like the hon. Member for Camborne and Redruth, I went down South Crofty, below 3,000 feet, but before it closed in 1997. I certainly agree with him and hope that the mine will open again soon so that it can make a major contribution to the Cornish economy.”
“And the strategy does need to be developed; it cannot be left where it is. It is important to emphasise that the industry is vital not only to the country’s intention to address climate change but to the integration of climate change and nature conservation. When one looks at the extraction of any precious component or metal, such as lithium, from Cornwall’s remarkable geography, one has to consider the consequences for nature conservation. I find it particularly pleasing that, in the constituency of the hon. Member for St Austell and Newquay, there is a strong working relationship between Imerys and local nature conservationists.”
“Member for Bournemouth East (Tom Hayes), whose constituency is within the Government zone of the south-west, as I describe it, emphasised the importance of taking a wider regional and national view on the integration of the various component parts necessary to developing a strategy. The hon. Member for St Austell and Newquay (Noah Law), who is the chair of the all-party parliamentary group on critical minerals, again emphasised the importance of the sector to the British economy. It is important to establish a clear strategy and, to be fair, the previous Government established a strategy in 2022, on which the current Government can build. They also established the Critical Minerals Intelligence Centre, which is run by the British Geological Survey and is another building block on which to develop a future strategy.”
“Member for Hitchin (Alistair Strathern), who is also no longer in his place, emphasised the huge potential economic benefit to this country of further developing the strategy. The hon. Member for Leeds Central and Headingley (Alex Sobel) also contributed and, of course, the ever-present hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) gave a telling contribution, making the vital point that although Cornwall is the epicentre of activity as far as critical minerals are concerned, other Celtic regions in the United Kingdom make an important contribution, as indeed do other locations throughout the country. The hon.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Harris. I congratulate the hon. Member for Camborne and Redruth (Perran Moon), not only on bringing this issue to the House’s attention, but on the manner in which he introduced it, emphasising its importance. There have been a number of contributions to the debate, in the form of both interventions and speeches. The hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Luke Myer) emphasised the importance of keeping the whole strategy under review. The hon. Member for Basingstoke (Luke Murphy), who is no longer in his place, emphasised the importance of the strategy and of ensuring that our national security is protected in the manner in which our policy is produced. The hon.”
“I am grateful to the Minister; it is enormously helpful to hear her respond to these matters. She will have picked up the question I raised earlier about the national wealth fund and the fact that smaller projects, particularly those at the critical exploration stage, feel that they cannot take advantage of it. Is the Minister prepared to investigate that further?”
“Over the last 10 years, under the previous Government, £500 million of taxpayers’ money was handed out to second and holiday homeowners in Cornwall alone, while only half that amount was spent on social housing for first-time need. Meanwhile, there is a massive backlog of shovel-ready social housing development that has planning permission and is ready to be delivered, but is caught by construction inflation. Surely the Government can add the dots to resolve the problem—”
“Contrary to what the media are saying, today’s decision is not about bringing this Bill into law; it is about allowing it to go to the next stage. People may have misgivings, but the hon. Gentleman is making the assumption that the Bill cannot be corrected or amended in order to make it palatable to people who have doubts. We all have doubts, but surely today’s vote is simply to let it go to the next stage. The final decision on Third Reading is the critical one in deciding whether the Bill goes into law.”
“My right hon. Friend is making an excellent case. On his point about multi-annual quotas, does he not agree that ICES very carefully presents its advice in a manner that actually provides for Governments, Ministers and indeed the European Commission to adopt a policy of multi-annual quotas for stock recovery? It does not necessarily solely push the industry or the legislators into a position where they have to set the annual cliff edges that he describes.”
“Member for Great Grimsby and Cleethorpes is proposing to have a name change herself; she is certainly moving in that direction, given the nature of what she told us.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Efford. It is also a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Great Grimsby and Cleethorpes (Melanie Onn), who gave what I suppose is best described as a commercial break in our proceedings, as she did a fantastic job of marketing the health and other benefits of consuming fish. This is déjà vu for me, in that I remember my first fisheries debate in 1997, for heaven’s sake. That was the annual fisheries debate we used to undertake in the main Chamber. One of the annual features of that debate was a contribution from the then hon. Member for Great Grimsby, the late Austin Mitchell, who I recollect was temporarily renamed by deed poll Mr Haddock, so enthusiastic was he to promote the fishing industry. I do not know whether the hon.”
“For example, the industry is trying to protect the crawfish sector and implement a recovery programme. By then, there was no reason why the fishermen could not invest in the gear necessary to catch crawfish, and that had a detrimental impact on the recovery programme efforts.”
“There is no reason why it cannot be rolled out in a manner that enhances fishing opportunities rather than creating a detriment to the industry, but that requires the Minister, Energy Ministers and others to engage in dialogue with the industry to ensure that the location of those sites is planned with great care. I want to draw the Minister’s attention to one of the—probably—unintended consequences of the decisions taken, through a little story of an individual fisherman from my constituency. An inshore fishermen from Cadgwith, who fishes from Newlyn, has been affected by the cut in pollack quotas. As the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth said, compensation was offered to the industry, and many who received the funds used them, naturally, because they are fishermen, to go into other sectors where in fact there was pressure.”
“It is often ignored, but nevertheless very important, particularly in my part of Cornwall with Newlyn being the largest port with a significant market. The hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth also mentioned the need for a fishing and marine strategy, and I hope the Minister will take that on board. There are both opportunities and challenges associated with rolling out, as the Government must, with our support, the offshore wind programme in the Celtic sea, which we in Cornwall are keen to ensure achieves maximum benefit to the local economy and the community.”
“Nevertheless, our local community adjusts itself to the challenges it faces. The hon. Members for South East Cornwall (Anna Gelderd) and for Truro and Falmouth (Jayne Kirkham) have made some excellent cases on behalf of Cornwall’s fishing industry and the important role it plays in the local economy. Indeed, the Cornish Fish Producers Organisation produced a report, which I know was handed to the Minister, called “The True Value of Seafood to Cornwall”. It shows that the industry contributes £174 million to Cornwall’s gross value added per annum, with 500 full-time equivalent jobs in the catching sector alone. That equates to about 8,000 jobs in the seafood supply chain, so it is a significant player in the Cornish economy.”
“If we want a recovery programme for most of the stock, there is no reason why we cannot project forward five years—not with great certainty, admittedly, regarding the situation five years hence, but with an indicative quota going forward over that period. That would help the industry to plan for the future. Another outcome for the industry in my area has been the detriment to the very significant export trade that existed. A number of companies operating back then —particularly those at the smaller end, admittedly—have gone out of business as a result of the impediments that predictably, indeed inevitably, were placed in their way, particularly for those involved in the export of live fish to the continent. That was predictable but avoidable, and it has clearly had a detrimental impact on the local economy.”
“Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland said, the common fisheries policy was often described as the worst possible policy apart from all the others, because fishing is a very difficult industry to manage, as the Minister knows and, indeed, as we all know. I remember engaging in fishing debates 10 years ago and there was a genuine belief then that we could move the industry away from the annual cliff-edge of the quota negotiations to a multi-annual system that would enable the industry, especially the catching sector, to plan five years ahead. Yes, there would be adjustments during that five-year, multi-annual rolling programme, but nevertheless it would provide a greater degree of certainty. As I said in my intervention on my right hon. Friend, the science supports a multi-annual programme.”
“I have to say that they were sold a very cruel hoax in terms of the outcome of the vote; they were made a lot of promises that have not been fulfilled at all. I had been prepared to concede that there was a major opportunity for the fishing industry, and that it was the one sector within the UK economy that could potentially have benefited as a result of Brexit, but such a benefit has not been delivered. Those people who made promises at that time just walked away from the industry after they had come down to places such as Newlyn to have their photographs taken for the purposes of their referendum campaign. That caused a lot of bitterness within the industry. Nevertheless, we move on. As my right hon.”
“I thank him for coming down to my constituency in the summer to visit Newlyn and for the genuine interest he takes in the industry, both in the catching sector and in the processing and marketing sector, which certainly impressed everyone there who met him. I am very grateful to him for making that visit. I come back to a debate on this subject after a decade’s sabbatical in the real world, which I must say is a very pleasurable place, and reflecting on a number of changes within the fishing industry in that time. Obviously, there is the B word; we do not want to return to the skirmishes of Brexit this afternoon, but it has certainly been a momentous change. During the period I was away, the fishing industry and fishermen were used as the poster boys for the Brexit campaign.”
“Well, he died a fish, and we are very saddened by his demise. I should reflect, as we certainly did in those days, on the risk that people take to put fish on our table, of which my right hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) rightly reminded us. I remember that in 1997, we lost seven men in the industry in my constituency alone. It was just after the loss of the Margaretha Maria 200 miles off the coast of west Cornwall, in which we lost four men from Newlyn. We have sadly lost others in the industry since then. It is worth reminding ourselves just what a hazardous trade it is. It is also a pleasure to see the Minister in his place.”
“I hope that the Minister will reflect on the lessons learned just from that little anecdote when considering how policy is implemented, and on the unintended detrimental consequence. The measure does not actually help even the species that it is supposed to protect. I hope that we are not coming back here in 10 years’ time, gnashing our teeth about the same issues and continuing this annual bunfight in which we do not even know what the quotas will be in just a few weeks’ time; I hope we have multi-annual quotas. One of the best ways of helping the industry is to provide it with all the capacity to manage itself better and for us politicians to try to stand back and keep out of it.”
“As a result of all that, my constituent has come out of that fishery and has since been targeting crawfish, of which the industry itself had undertaken voluntary measures to increase the minimum size and to help to recover the stock. Indeed, the minimum size proposed by the industry and implemented in Cornwall has since been picked up, adopted, in national legislation. The crawfish season is now over, so we now have a fisherman who has tied his boat up and is no longer able to fish. The point is that I hope that the Minister, when looking at this issue, bears in mind that when we propose regulation affecting the industry, that is in effect a two-dimensional policy affecting three-dimensional reality. That is the problem.”
“During one month—March of last year—my constituent caught more than 100 kg of by-caught pollack, which he was entitled to land in the market. Indeed, he was required to land it in the market; he could not throw it overboard. He was obliged to land this fish, as a result of which his licence was frozen by the Marine Management Organisation. Following some dispute, he was fined £1,000, and he then had to move out of that fishery. Of course, he was not targeting pollack at the time; he was trying to avoid it as best he could. The MMO did not offer him any kind of solution to the problem that he found himself with.”
“I will come to that in a second. The nature of what happens off the Cornish coast, and certainly in the south-west and other areas, is that pollack is caught in a multispecies environment. It is impossible not to catch pollack even when targeting other species—the hon. Member helps me to make the point—so my constituent went and targeted hake. The first thing to bear in mind is this. While he was targeting pollack, he was between 8 and 20 miles off the coast. To target hake, he had to go 40 miles or beyond, and that placed his small boat in significantly greater danger. In other words, it put him at greater risk to pursue an alternative fishery. That is point No. 1 to bear in mind. The second point is that there is a pollack by-catch if someone is targeting hake.”
“The hon. Gentleman seems to be implying that the fishing industry is resistant to any conservation measures and would resist the proposed management measures that inevitably have to be brought into the industry. From my experience, the industry itself often proposes changes in order to protect its stock for the future. For example, the Trevose ground closure off the north coast of Cornwall during spring of each year was proposed by the industry itself.”
“I should have intervened earlier. The Minister is making a strong point. On the back of that, all we have to do is talk to the pollack fisherman in Cornwall to find out how they feel about what has happened in the last year.”
“My hon. Friend is making an excellent case. Certainly in my own constituency, further west than his own, in west Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly, there have been 18 discharges around the coast just in the past 10 days. On the proposed changes in the Government consultation, as attractive as the concept of bringing water back into public ownership is—and I strongly support it—the consequences and costs make it rather challenging. The Conservatives set up the companies as risk-free, money-making emporiums. Does he agree that we need to bring in regulation that ensures they are governed in the public interest?”
“Does the Minister agree that the cold-blooded slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent people in Gaza cannot be justified as self-defence? Does he also agree that—contrary to the Trumpian line adopted by those on the Conservative Benches—just because a country is a democracy, that does not provide it with blanket immunity from international law?”
“If the Minister is looking for other methods by which public finances could be effectively deployed, will he look carefully at the last decade, during which small business rate relief has been used by second home owners to flip their properties to business rating and pay nothing at all? In Cornwall alone, that has resulted in over £500 million of taxpayers’ money being paid out to wealthy second home owners through covid aid and the small business rate relief. Will he look at how wealthy people have been incentivised to use that method to their advantage? Will he ensure that we have a much fairer system that puts first homes before second homes?”
“My hon. Friend is making an excellent case. Along with the point I made in my previous intervention about the opportunity for abuse under the rates relief system, particularly by holiday homes, does she accept that the methodology used by the current rating system for parking spaces in out-of-town retail outlets such as supermarkets hands a massive advantage to those supermarkets in comparison with town centre shops, and that we need a rating system that actually levies a rate on that benefit at a level that ensures an even playing field?”
“In Cornwall, only 25% of delayed discharges from hospital are because of lack of social care packages, with the remainder involving the significant degree of support needed from primary and community NHS services. The Royal College of Nursing has pointed out that there has been a 45% reduction in district nurses in the last decade, so what can the Government do to replace those essential roles at a primary care level?”
“I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement, and particularly the sentiment about putting passengers first and getting a grip. Those who are served by Great Western, which runs to south Wales as well as down the main line to Penzance in my constituency—Great Western has already been heavily criticised this afternoon—will be aware that we are getting none of the benefits of HS2 but a lot of the disruption as a result of the work at Old Oak Common. Will the Secretary of State meet those Members of Parliament who are worried about the prospect of six years of sometimes severe disruption to their services to see whether we can minimise the impact?”
“We propose to raise the money by reversing the tax cut for big banks and increasing taxes on the oil and energy giants and large social media multinationals. Surely that would be a far better way. In responding to questions on the impact of the national insurance rise on GPs, hospices and care providers, the Secretary of State clearly recognised that a mistake was made, and I suspect that the impact was overlooked. [ Interruption. ] The Chief Secretary is shaking his head, but he really needs to address those issues, because a crisis will continue to occur.”
“I have three minutes and three quick points, on which I hope I have the attention of the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. My first point relates to the NHS. I welcome the introduction to the debate by the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care today. Certainly the Government have inherited the worst crisis in NHS history, and they have a massive challenge on their hands. I like how the 10-year plan has been framed in relation to moving from hospital to home, from sickness to prevention and so on. The Prime Minister was right when he said that those with the broadest shoulders should bear the greatest burden, but the way this Government are raising tax through national insurance is, I am afraid, hitting some of those who will be struggling most. I hope that he will look again at that and how the Liberal Democrats have framed it.”
“Only 9,500 social homes were built last year. We need a great deal more if we are to address the serious housing emergency. I have a final question for the Chief Secretary—if I may have his attention for a moment—about the announcement of two layers of business rating that will apply to the retail, hospitality and leisure sector. Many holiday home owners have managed to abuse the system by using small business rate relief. I hope that such second homeowners will not have further opportunities to take advantage of loopholes. Will he investigate that and ensure that money goes into first homes rather than second homes? I am afraid that there is a loophole in the system.”
“I do, although that is rather rich of the right hon. Gentleman when he knows that he and his party left the country in this state. Another issue is the housing emergency, which we have not debated much today. I welcome the additional £500 million that the Government announced, which will supplement the affordable homes programme to 2026. That is much needed. I hope that the Chief Secretary will also address the large number of shovel-ready projects that have planning permission and pre-development work in place. I must declare an interest as a former chief executive of a registered provider. I hope that the Government will look at the impact of the significant construction inflation we have seen over the last four years, which is holding up many developments that could be addressing housing need in our communities.”
“To reinforce the points made by the hon. Members for Truro and Falmouth (Jayne Kirkham) and for Camborne and Redruth (Perran Moon), and by my hon. Friend, this is not purely down to money. Indeed, there is an underspend in the dentistry contracts of many ICBs, and not just in Cornwall. Fundamentally, we know that it is the nature of the contract itself that means we end up in situations such as that in Cornwall, where children can expect never to see an NHS dentist until adulthood.”
“The Government have to accept that the far-right Government of Israel are laughing behind their hands at us at the moment. They know that they are operating under the comfort blanket of a UK Government who say that they stand with Israel and that Israel has a right to defend itself. But when has murdering children in their hospital beds been tantamount to defence? In what way is the cold-blooded slaughter of 11,000 children tantamount to defence? Rather than the use of words to condemn the actions of Israel, why does the Minister not follow suggestions of many Members in the House today and start taking action to make the Israeli Government sit up?”