Sir Edward Leigh
MP for Gainsborough · Conservative · United Kingdom
“Those of us who love the Jewish people and faith know that the reason why they have overcome all the empires that have tried to destroy them is that they are primarily people of the book and not the sword, but what is happening in the west bank is violent and egregious.”
“I am grateful to the Secretary of State for looking again at Lincolnshire. I made the point to her predecessor that the proposal for a Greater Lincolnshire authority was, in the eyes of many people, just a gerrymander. Will she look again at it and stop dividing West Lindsey and North Kesteven in half?”
“If the centre does not take action, nasty extremes will take over. The fact is that we are in acute danger. These people can now launch from anywhere on the north French coast and are escorted to our shores. Frankly, we are being invaded, and the public are completely fed up.”
“May I congratulate the Prime Minister on what he said about Ukraine and on how he conducted himself there? Our enemies should know that this House is completely and utterly united in standing behind the Ukrainian people.”
“What concerns me is the jobs of my constituents who work at Scunthorpe. That is all I am worried about; I have no ideological objection. If it is what is needed now, fair enough. As long as the blast furnaces are totally uneconomic because of high energy costs, however, it can only be a sticking plaster.”
“One of the poorest wards in the entire country is Gainsborough south-west ward. Why is the Secretary of State splitting West Lindsey in half? Why is he taking Scampton away from Gainsborough? It makes no sense. Why is he cutting away the nuclear fusion site from Lincoln?”
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“This is utterly debilitating. We cannot go on like this. Please, can we have a plan?”
“Until we have freedom of manoeuvre to have a real deterrent that tells the world, “If you land illegally on our shores, you will be detained and, ultimately, you will either have to go back where you came from or be deported,” we will never stop this problem. It is all right for the Labour party to talk about safe and legal routes, and about what it will try to do, but we all know that that did not work for the Dublin convention and it will not work if Labour takes power. President Macron will not suddenly change his mind. He will not take anyone back. We will be in this exact position in 15 months’ time if there is a Labour Government, and I predict that, if there is a Labour Government, they will simply leave this Act on the statute book pretty well unamended. My constituency is a victim of all this, so what is the House going to do?”
“Every time we try to do anything, human rights lawyers drive a coach and horses through all our efforts. So what are we going to do? I have said for two or three years now that the only solution—I suspect the Government will be dragged into this within a year—is to have a derogation, if necessary a temporary derogation during a national crisis, from the refugee convention, which prevents us from detaining people who claim to be asylum seekers. We will also have to have a derogation from the European convention on human rights. I am a member of the Council of Europe, and I value the work of the Council of Europe, but the European Court of Human Rights is not a supreme court like our Supreme Court. It is not a supreme court like the American Supreme Court. It is a fundamentally political body, appointed on political grounds.”
“Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) says about children, but the trouble is that so many of these people who claim to be children are not children—they have to be assessed. One of the problems we face at Scampton is that there are so many of these people, 20% of the population coming into the camp, which means there will have to be an army of social workers to determine whether they are children. I have enormous sympathy for persecuted LGBT people, but the truth is that the moment we create an exception saying that we cannot deport a person to an African country with a dodgy record on LGBT, everyone will claim to be LGBT—of course they will. I would do the same. If I were coming from Iraq, I would say I am a Christian. If I were coming from Syria, I would say I am gay. This is the problem we face.”
“The Labour party does not want to set a precedent for the unelected House of Lords to block legislation, so it will give in and the House of Lords will deliver the Bill. It will become an Act of Parliament, and I have a horrible feeling that, this time next year, we will be in exactly the same position. Can we rely on the Supreme Court to agree that people should be deported to Rwanda? What are we going to do? Is it crueller to detain people as soon as they arrive or to do nothing and have a tragedy in the channel? Is it cruel to continue letting people smugglers get away with what they want? Of course, I have enormous sympathy with what my hon.”
“How can we remove these legal glitches, which will have unintended consequences?” It seems to me that so much of the debate in the House of Lords and so many of the amendments have just been designed to drive a coach and horses through the Bill and to give human rights lawyers even greater chances to develop ever more legal arguments to stop anybody from being deported. I have some sympathy with what the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) said. What is a bit of a mystery to me is that we went through this whole process last year. We had the ping-pong on the Nationality and Borders Bill. We got it through Parliament and were told that it would solve the problem—but we still have the same problem. I prophesise that, actually, this Bill will become law.”
“The Minister can relax; I am not going to bang on about RAF Scampton—not least because I have put in for the Adjournment debate on Thursday when I can deal with it in more detail. I just ask the House to accept that my constituents are, more than any others in the country, victims of this farce—this debacle—of trying to house 2,000 people in one place. That is not good for the people and it will overwhelm our social services. There is now an argument to be had about the future of the House of Lords. There is no point in our having these endless debates about whether it should be elected or not. It should be a proper revising Chamber. When it is given a Bill such as this, its attitude should be, “How can we improve it? How can we make it work better?”
“Can we have a debate on the House of Lords? We have had endless debates on whether they should be elected and there seems very little consensus—it is just creating gridlock between the two Houses—but the House of Lords should surely be a revising Chamber. That is its strength; it is full of experts. But we have seen with the Illegal Migration Bill their determination to amend a Government Bill to a huge extent: they virtually want to kill it off, rather than simply improve it. Can we try to achieve consensus on getting people in the House of Lords who actually want to be working peers and to improve legislation, and give power to the House of Lords Appointments Commission to consider the suitability of candidates, not just their propriety?”
“13. Whether his Department has made an assessment with Cabinet colleagues of the potential impact of the availability of housing on young people’s mental health.”
“The mental health of young people is being impacted by the fact that net migration is far too high and we are not building nearly enough houses. The Government need to take action on that, but young people worry that, with an ageing population, the health service will not be able to provide for them in future. May I commend to the Minister the excellent paper published by the former Labour Prime Minister Tony Blair, which suggests things such as co-payments and personalised apps? Would it not be ironic if a former Labour Prime Minister were more radical on reform of the NHS than a Conservative Government?”
“We know from the people who arrive in hotels that perhaps 20% of the migrants will be children—or say they are children. We know that that will be the case among those who arrive at RAF Scampton. As the Government are talking about 2,000 people coming here, we may need 40 or 50 social workers, which we cannot afford in Lincolnshire. We do not have the resources to look after these people properly, to assess them, to work out whether they are children and to decide how they are going to be looked after. Is my hon. Friend not making the point that it is much better to disperse people rather than to shove 2,000 illegal migrants in one place?”
“Q8. Tonight, at West Lindsey District Council’s planning meeting, the RAF will apply for listed building consent to move the grave of Wing Commander Guy Gibson’s dog. Apparently, the Home Office is content for 2,000 migrants to be cooped up next to 1,000 of my constituents living near or on the base, but the RAF thinks it intolerable that it should leave the grave of a dog that has lain in peace for 80 years. More importantly, will the Home Office start listening to us? If it insists on this proposal on illegal migrants, will it put them on a discrete part of the base and let us get on with £300 million of levelling up with a hundred buildings—many of them listed—a 2 mile-long runway and a spaceport, and let the dog lie in peace?”
“I am a bit mystified. Given that 95% of these applications are successful, is it not the case that, if we speed up the process and make it easier and easier, more and more people will come? Is not the only solution to detain people and to deport them—offshore them? Those who suggest anything else are living in cloud cuckoo land and every single county will face what we face in Lincolnshire with thousands of illegal migrants having to be housed in unsuitable places. Let us have an answer for once.”
“According to the King’s Fund, the proportion of GDP taken by the NHS has increased in the past 50 years from 3.4% to 8.2%. On the same trajectory, in 50 years’ time, it will take a fifth of all our GDP. That is totally unsustainable, especially as someone’s only right, despite the fact they are paying ever increasing amounts of tax, is to join the back of the queue. I ask again: will the Secretary of State launch a study—and, if necessary, appoint a royal commission—on fundamental reform of the whole nature and funding of our health system, so that we can learn from every other developed country, such as Australia, France, Italy and Germany, where they unleash private sector investment into healthcare and give people rights to their healthcare, while ensuring that those who need it get free healthcare at the point of delivery?”
“Meanwhile, constituencies are overwhelmed, as local services will be at RAF Scampton. What alternative plan is there? Does the Home Secretary not realise that every year we produce a migration Bill and we are tied up in knots by human rights lawyers? What we have been suggesting for two years in the Common Sense Group is that the refugee convention was made for a different world, as was the human rights convention, and we simply must have a derogation, so that we can detain people and then deport them. We will never solve this problem otherwise.”
“I am simply suggesting a compromise and a way forward. I hope the Secretary of State will agree that that compromise is worth considering.”
“For all those reasons—especially those given by my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Nickie Aiken) in her brilliant speech—the proposed design is simply the wrong design. In its complexity and controversy, it undermines what we are trying to achieve. I appeal to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, who has now rejoined us in the Chamber, to try to achieve a compromise. This whole controversy, this whole delay, is doing no good to the cause. If he can work with the Father of the House and with Westminster City Council, I am sure that in a matter of months they could come to an agreement to build a worthy memorial. Then, in time, we could work with all interested parties to create a fantastic, world-class holocaust museum, which would explain the whole story properly.”
“Some part of Victoria Tower gardens will be useful as a staging ground for the works that will be undertaken at the Palace. We need as much wiggle room as possible. The holocaust memorial would make working on the Palace more constrictive and possibly more costly in both time and money. There are suitable alternative locations. I want to stress this point: instead of building an entirely new holocaust learning centre, why do the Government not take advantage of the Imperial War Museum, where there is plenty of room? This site at the Imperial War Museum is less than half a mile away from the current proposed site, so it would still be an accessible and prominent central London location. I repeat that almost nobody objects to having a memorial in the park but not the underground learning centre.”
“Instead, we will have an 80-metre ramp, creating a wide moat splitting the park, with paving areas replacing swathes of grass. Since it was created, Victoria Tower gardens has been associated with an uninterrupted sweep of grass between magnificent rows of trees, superbly framing the Palace of Westminster and Victoria Tower. If the plan goes ahead, that splendid view will be lost forever. I sit on the programme board for the restoration and renewal of the Palace of Westminster. The holocaust memorial project has a direct impact on this huge undertaking. Mr Deputy Speaker, as you are also on the board, you will know those problems well. Renovating the Palace will take many years—almost certainly over a decade. To do the job well, effectively and with good value for money, we will need as much flexibility as possible.”
“As recently as June 2016, 50 local properties were flooded from underneath following heavy downpours. In such ancient marshland, it is all too easy for the water table to rise alarmingly when there is a period of sudden and heavy rainfall. Further objections can be raised on the grounds that Victoria Tower gardens is already home to existing memorials of a smaller but appropriate scale, as I have mentioned. Those incredibly important memorials to the slave trade and to votes for women will be overshadowed. The design remit sent out to architecture firms competing to design the memorial included the criterion that the monument must “enhance Victoria Tower Gardens—improving the visual and sensory experience of the green space”. This plan simply does not meet that criterion.”
“There are practical points: the existing pressures on Millbank will only be compounded by traffic related to people accessing the memorial. We have not been informed of any plans to deal with coach traffic and halting, which putting the memorial there would be bound to generate. There are no parking spaces or drop-off zones for coaches. The local Thorney Island Society has stated that it is “obviously very concerned at the loss of this small valuable park, because it is difficult to imagine that a project of this size and importance would not dominate the space and transform it from a tranquil local park to a busy civic space”. The subterranean nature of the plans for the holocaust memorial add a further layer of complication to using Victoria Tower gardens. This is a riparian location, right on the banks of the River Thames.”
“Everyone knows that the park is frequently used on a daily basis by visitors to the city, those who work nearby and local residents. It would simply be impossible for Victoria Tower gardens to continue in its current, useful way if the plan goes ahead. The London County Council (Improvements) Act 1900 introduced statutory protections for Victoria Tower gardens that are being decisively undermined. That Act of Parliament was solemnly created to provide a green space for working class people in the middle of Westminster. The purpose of the memorial is to commemorate victims of this great crime, and to teach current and future generations. That means that we want many people to go there. We hope that it will be well used.”
“They expressed their concerns and reservations about the proposed project for Victoria Tower gardens, which is a grade II listed park, part of which is included in a UNESCO world heritage site that we are treaty bound to respect. The gardens are under the purview of the Royal Parks, which has never supported siting such a prominent and large memorial there. Its chairman, Loyd Grossman, wrote to me specifically to clarify that. He said that the Royal Parks “has concerns about the potential risk of such a building on the intrinsic qualities of a well-used public park in an area of the city with a limited number of open spaces.” There are concerns that if that beautiful space is sacrificed, it would create a precedent that could be repeated in other green spaces under the management of the Royal Parks.”
“It is frankly hideous, and it would completely or partially block from that end of the park the iconic view of the Palace of Westminster, which is the subject of thousands of photographs and pictures. As my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West said, if we had started the process without proposing a totally inadequate underground learning centre and just satisfied ourselves with a monument, that could already have been built. People give the powerful message that we should get on with this, so let us get on with building the monument. Whether we build it in Victoria Tower gardens or on College Green, as he said, let us get on with it. We do not need to start by building the underground learning centre. The letter to The Times on 2 October signed by eight Jewish peers is worth highlighting.”
“This country led the world campaign against the slave trade, and the Buxton memorial explains that campaign powerfully in an aesthetically beautiful way. There is also the superb Rodin monument, the Burghers of Calais, which explains that story in a powerful way, and the superb Pankhurst monument, which powerfully proclaims the fight for votes for women. I have always argued that it would be perfectly possible to have a monument fairly close to the playground that would tell the story but not, as my hon. Friend said, overpower the park. The trouble with the Ottawa monument, which we are importing, is that it is simply huge. It is a vast mound with great metal spikes sticking out of it.”
“Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster said, this is one of the most overcrowded parts of the United Kingdom. Literally thousands of people live and work extremely close to this very small park. Anyone who goes there on a summer’s afternoon, like those we have had in recent days, will see every inch of it packed with people who work and live in Westminster trying to get a bit of sun and air and green. I have suggested a compromise to the Secretary of State and to many others. I, and I think many others, am perfectly happy with the concept of having a memorial to the holocaust in the park. Such a memorial could be aesthetically pleasing, dynamic and express the whole issue in powerful terms. I am conscious of the superb monuments that we already have in the park, which, for instance, detail anti-slavery.”
“We will have to dig down into the park and, while the centre will have two storeys, it will have only a couple of rooms, which will not allow the whole narrative to be developed. That is why the Imperial War Museum, which already has a good holocaust gallery, was quite right to make its offer. There is a lot of space next to that museum, and it was prepared—I am sure that it is prepared—to develop a world-class holocaust museum. I join my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West in suggesting a compromise. I have asked a series of questions about this. I declare an interest in that I, like many Members of Parliament, live half a mile or a mile away and of course work in this building. I am conscious that, as my hon.”
“Friend the Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley), which have not denied the need for a memorial, but in great detail have explained why this sort of memorial and the way it will be constructed are not appropriate for this site at this time. This is such an important issue, and we are all united in wanting to do it well, so we should ensure that the memorial is done well. I have been to the holocaust museums in Berlin and Washington. They are the most comprehensive, moving, enormous edifices. People are taken through a whole series of rooms, explaining exactly how antisemitism originated and the final result of the holocaust. We should have that sort of holocaust museum in London. The problem is that this site is so constrained that it cannot do justice to the cause and to the issue.”
“This has been a debate in two parts. First, we have heard moving testimony from Members on both sides of the House about the evils of antisemitism and some personal experiences, particularly from the hon. Member for Hemsworth (Jon Trickett). Everybody in the House agrees wholeheartedly with those moving testimonies, and everybody in the House accepts that we should have an appropriate memorial to the holocaust. That has been one part of the debate. Then we have had two well researched, well thought-out speeches from my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Nickie Aiken)—the local Member of Parliament—and my hon.”
“Let us put it on the record that, as Winston Churchill said, only one nation in the entire world fought Nazism and fascism from day one of the war to the last day of the war—it was this country and this Parliament.”
“It is accepted that there is a principle to memorial, so what about my point on having an overground memorial—like other memorials—but not an underground learning centre? Will the Committee still be able to consider such a detail?”
“T5. And so another migration Bill winds its way slowly out of the House of Lords, and when it becomes law, an army of human rights lawyers will try to frustrate it. Will the Government reflect that, if only we had had the courage to get out with a derogation from the European convention on human rights and the refugee convention, we might have solved the small boats crisis two years ago? Now my constituents are victims of that, because the Government want to put 2,000 migrants in RAF Scampton, and the same human rights lawyers in the Refugee Council will oppose it on the grounds that it is inhumane to put them next to hangars ridden with asbestos. Why do we not just get out of the convention?”
“What is nonsense is to deny that it makes economic sense to offshore. Nobody is going to spend thousands of pounds to a people smuggler just to be detained and sent back to Rwanda. In terms of deterrence, will the Minister accept that if someone is fleeing chaos in Syria or Iraq, they will not be deterred to come if they are going to be put up in a cosy, warm, former airman’s bedroom in RAF Scampton, rather than a hotel in bracing, cold Skegness? Is not the solution to get the Bill through and pass it into law and for the House of Lords to stop its silly games?”
“I declare an interest, in that the wonderful Market Rasen racecourse is in my constituency. Does the Minister accept that there is an inextricable link between horse-racing and betting? Both give enormous pleasure to millions. Does the Minister agree that the sweeping blanket checks envisaged in the White Paper are neither advisable nor appropriate, and the nanny state is just harming the harmless punter taking a little flutter?”
“Rural Lincolnshire has arguably the finest collection of medieval churches in the country and it is a joy to visit them. Many are open through the open churches event organised as part of the West Lindsey Churches Festival. Does my hon. Friend agree that the glory of the Church of England is the parish structure? Does he agree with many of the points made by the Save the Parish campaign, which prioritises keeping our parish churches open and functioning through worship, despite increasing diocesan bureaucracy?”
“When the House debated whether it should be possible to receive an abortion pill through the post, we warned that there might be a tragic case such as this. Some people in the abortion industry are now using this tragic case to argue for some sort of legal right to abortion up to birth. Given that many babies are surviving at 24 weeks, that is an obscene and cruel proposal. Surely the solution, given that it is difficult to determine gestation without an in-person appointment, is to return to the system of in-person appointments, so that women can receive safe, legal abortions if they wish.”
“We are supposed to believe in innovation. Why are we stopping a fantastic piece of innovation to launch satellites into space? We are supposed to believe in levelling up, so why are we destroying £300 million-worth of levelling up? We are supposed to have a coherent policy on migration. Putting as many as 2,000 migrants in one place is not a good idea. By the way, it is not supported by local people, the local authority or the Refugee Council. It is bad for their stability and welfare to have 2,000 migrants in one place. For all those reasons, I very much hope the Minister will think again.”
“We have asked for an assessment of the risk of asbestos and that has been denied us. If the Illegal Migration Bill goes through—I warmly support it; it is the only hope that we can deter people because they know they will be detained and offshored—people will come to Manston. Apparently, they will then be immediately sent to RAF Scampton. By definition at that stage, if the Bill becomes law, they will be illegal migrants, but they will be in RAF Scampton. The Government tell us that there are no plans to make RAF Scampton a detention centre, so those people will be able to walk out the front door, take the shuttle bus to Lincoln, take the train to London and vanish. We have no ID cards. We will never find them. What is the logic of all this? It simply does not make sense. We should have joined-up government.”
“They are not built to a modern standard, they may be riddled with asbestos, and there has been contamination by fuel. The Government say, “The fact that we are going to put them in an RAF base is a deterrent”, but I can tell them that if a person is desperate—if they come from the likes of Syria, Somalia or Iraq—they are not going to be deterred from coming to the United Kingdom because they will be put up in a warm room in RAF Scampton, rather than a hotel in Skegness. Skegness is very bracing; it might actually be warmer in RAF Scampton. The thought that we are going to deter people just by taking over an RAF base simply does not make sense. There is such a lack of communication with the local authority, too. We have asked for risk assessments, but they have been denied us.”
“Only two or three weeks ago, there was a so-called secret meeting at the village hall on the site, with two military policemen outside, at which the MOD personnel employed by the RAF were told that because migrants were now going to be placed next to them, they would be moved at public expense. That offer has not been made to the ordinary people who have bought their house. The Minister will say, “I am not responsible for the MOD”, but we have collective responsibility. How can the Government say that it is so shocking that their own people, who they employ, should live next to a migrant camp that they are prepared to move them at public expense? The buildings that we are talking about are old—some of them were put up in the war.”
“This is something that I have not yet said in the House, which I think is really bad: this is not an isolated site in the middle of the countryside. It is just five miles from Lincoln. There are 1,000 people who live cheek by jowl next to the RAF base in the former married quarters. Some of those people—maybe 100 of them—are still serving RAF personnel. What is really bad is that there has been a total lack of communication between the Government and those private citizens who live in the married quarters, who have bought their own home and put their life savings into those houses, but there has been regular communication with the Ministry of Defence personnel.”
“Apparently, it wants three or four decaying airmen’s blocks that could maybe take 300 or 400 people, and a bit of hardstanding. The Home Office must own hardstanding all over the country; why can it not put portacabins up on hardstanding, and not try to stymie £300 million of investment? It would be a reasonable proposal as a starting point if the Home Office said to us, “All right, there are these airmen’s blocks. We will take them and put a fence around them”—of course, we cannot lock people up under the refugee convention, but they could go to their own entrance and take a bus to Lincoln, where they could access health, education, sport and all the rest of it—“and we will release the rest of the site to West Lindsey District Council.” It has not even offered us that. It gets worse.”
“We had the most exciting scheme ever developed for a former RAF base, with £300 million of investment and really exciting proposals, but the Home Office is now intending to put 2,000 migrants in that base. It wants to take the whole base. There are 800 acres, miles of perimeter fence, a two-mile-long runway and 100 buildings—many of them listed, such as Guy Gibson’s office. We were going to have a heritage centre. I have talked about the past and the rich heritage that could, and does, make RAF Scampton an iconic base, but most excitingly of all—as I said to the Innovation Minister yesterday—we were going to have a spaceport on the runway. We were going to launch rockets into space carrying satellites, so a whole new technology was about to be developed. Why is the Home Office taking this huge, historic base to house 2,000 migrants?”
“I wanted to talk about the challenge posed by legal migration, but there is not much time. Therefore, as my constituency is about to be the victim of illegal migration, I must follow my right hon. Friend the Member for Witham (Priti Patel) in talking about that topic and once again raising the issue of RAF Scampton. I apologise if I am wearying the House on this issue, but unless people groan when you stand up, you are probably not making progress in this place, so I will keep referring to it. The decision to house 2,000 migrants at RAF Scampton is a perverse decision that makes no sense in terms of public policy. To remind the House, RAF Scampton is an iconic RAF base, the home of the Dambusters and the Red Arrows. It is to the RAF what Portsmouth is to the Royal Navy.”
“The Government recently launched a call for space infrastructure projects, and West Lindsey District Council has proposed plans to work with the Satellite Applications Catapult, which the Minister mentioned, at RAF Scampton, as part of a £300 million levelling-up deal. What is the logic of one part of Government talking about levelling up and innovation and another part talking about putting a migrant camp in the middle of it, preventing all that infrastructure?”
“I fully support what my right hon. and learned Friend is doing. She can relax, as I have not come with a pot of glue in my pocket to glue myself to the Bench next to her in protest at what is happening with RAF Scampton. Does she accept that if people with good arguments put them politely and relentlessly, this Government will listen and they will eventually win?”
“Are there not double standards on the left? They believe that in their cause they can disrupt people’s daily lives, but when some old lady is praying outside an abortion clinic, that is absolutely outrageous and must be banned by law.”
“Does the Commission accept as a general principle that the people have elected Members to this House and that only the people should remove Members from this House?”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. Under the old British Rail, we used to have a direct train to London from Grimsby and the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) through Market Rasen. I have been campaigning for that train to be reinstated for 40 years—ever since I was elected as a Member of Parliament. Sometimes I wander down from my home in the wolds and wait forlornly on the platform at Market Rasen, but the train never comes. Will the Secretary of State oblige an old campaigner and give us our train back, please?”
“T8. Under the Human Rights Act, do the Government not have a duty of care to deal with the housing of illegal migrants? How can the Government ensure the health of 2,000 migrants cooped up in the former RAF Scampton? In particular, how will they ensure their health given the fact that the site is riddled with asbestos and contamination from 100 years of RAF usage? I see a case coming to the European Court of Human Rights.”