Sir Edward Leigh
MP for Gainsborough · Conservative · United Kingdom
“Those of us who love the Jewish people and faith know that the reason why they have overcome all the empires that have tried to destroy them is that they are primarily people of the book and not the sword, but what is happening in the west bank is violent and egregious.”
“I am grateful to the Secretary of State for looking again at Lincolnshire. I made the point to her predecessor that the proposal for a Greater Lincolnshire authority was, in the eyes of many people, just a gerrymander. Will she look again at it and stop dividing West Lindsey and North Kesteven in half?”
“If the centre does not take action, nasty extremes will take over. The fact is that we are in acute danger. These people can now launch from anywhere on the north French coast and are escorted to our shores. Frankly, we are being invaded, and the public are completely fed up.”
“May I congratulate the Prime Minister on what he said about Ukraine and on how he conducted himself there? Our enemies should know that this House is completely and utterly united in standing behind the Ukrainian people.”
“What concerns me is the jobs of my constituents who work at Scunthorpe. That is all I am worried about; I have no ideological objection. If it is what is needed now, fair enough. As long as the blast furnaces are totally uneconomic because of high energy costs, however, it can only be a sticking plaster.”
“One of the poorest wards in the entire country is Gainsborough south-west ward. Why is the Secretary of State splitting West Lindsey in half? Why is he taking Scampton away from Gainsborough? It makes no sense. Why is he cutting away the nuclear fusion site from Lincoln?”
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“My hon. Friend makes an obvious point, and of course we have moved on from the 1950s and 1960s. People have to feel comfortable with their own sexuality, but surely they should also feel comfortable expressing a traditional viewpoint. That is all that the new clause is trying to achieve. If cases such as that of Adrian Smith can happen now, before the law is changed, we can be absolutely certain that there will be many more in the future. We cannot yet be sure what will happen in churches and elsewhere, but we can be sure that there will be more such cases if the Bill is passed unamended. Equality law is meant to protect all beliefs, religious and otherwise. Some people believe in man-woman marriage for religious reasons, and they have a right to that belief. Others believe in it for non-religious reasons.”
“My right hon. Friend is making a thoughtful and interesting speech. The right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) seemed to imply that teachers should not be allowed to express a separate point of view. May we get this clear? My right hon. Friend thinks that if I am a teacher in a Catholic school and I say that same-sex marriage is wrong, I should be allowed to say that. If that is the case, why can he not accept one of the new clauses to make that absolutely clear?”
“The National Audit Office currently employs the equivalent of 870 full-time staff. It collects detailed information on an individual’s employment and education history when recruiting staff.”
“Yes, I do. As an audit institution, the NAO’s core accounting skills are obviously provided through qualified accountants, many of whom join as trainees. The NAO currently employs about 330 qualified accountants and 200 trainees, graduate and school-leaver, from all sectors and all types of society. It also recruits staff from public and private sector backgrounds to provide operational expertise and disciplines, including economics, statistics, information and communications technology, banking and finance. In addition, it has an active inward and outward secondment programme to enhance its skills and experience base.”
“Of course NAO staff have no views on the policy implications of HS2, but I know that they will ensure that it, like all public sector projects, is properly investigated to ensure that there is no waste or incompetence.”
“I have here a leaflet issued by the Liberal Democrats at the time of the passage of the Lisbon treaty. On the front page is a man posing as one Nick Clegg, who says: “It’s time for a real referendum on Europe”— an in/out referendum, not a referendum on a treaty change. Was that man an impostor or just a hypocrite?”
“On a real issue that concerns people, there have been 1.1 million immigrants from eastern Europe since 2004, so I repeat the question very courteously put by my hon. Friend the Member for Rochford and Southend East (James Duddridge). The right hon. Gentleman talks about leadership, so will he show some and tell us whether the Labour party would grant the British people a referendum on Europe? Yes or no?”
“I think we may come to a time before the end of this Parliament when, such is the divergence of opinion—perfectly honourably felt—between very honourable people such as the Minister on the Front Bench and me, that for the sake of the nation we may have to bring this coalition to an end and honestly put our separate programmes to the people.”
“I represent a Lincolnshire seat. I wish to say a bit about opinion in Lincolnshire and relay it to the House, if Members are not already aware of it from the local election results. Coincidentally, today is the feast day of St Earconwald, who was born in 693 in Lindsey, north Lincolnshire. Various miracles were attributed to him. For example, when he was elderly and in his wheelchair, the wheels fell off but it kept going. I am reminded of how the coalition still keeps going, despite its wheels occasionally falling off.”
“I have no idea when that will happen. I said I wanted to talk about opinion in Lincolnshire. Despite all the Government’s success in their central aim of attempting to cut the deficit—we have cut it by a third—people there undoubtedly feel that their voice is not being heard. We have to listen to that voice. If I may be forgiven for being party political for a moment, I should point out that there is absolutely no enthusiasm for the Labour party, because people have not forgotten who created the borrowing mess we are in. We heard a lot about plain packaging from the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham), who led for the Opposition today, but the whole Labour party is plain packaged. We have no idea, frankly, what it will do.”
“The Government could easily mend fences with many of their supporters by putting the Bill out to further consultation.”
“If anybody wants to look at an excellent article on this subject, they should read Charles Moore’s in The Daily Telegraph on Saturday. There is a real problem. We are trying to deal with an economic crisis and the very first thing we will do after this Queen’s Speech debate—although it was not mentioned in it; as far as the Government are concerned, this is the Bill that dare not speak its name—is have two days on same-sex marriage. The Bill will then go to the House of Lords. There are enormous, complex issues at stake for the Church of England. I have no doubt that we are moving to a world in which the Church of England will be allowed to conduct only religious marriages, but will not be able to complete them. They will have to be completed by the state because of equality legislation. These are serious issues.”
“We will have to see what happens in various parts of the country. It is said that this is a thin Queen’s Speech. As a Conservative, I do not object to a thin Queen’s Speech. I do not object to deleting unnecessary legislation either, whether on minimal alcohol pricing or plain packaging. I view all these as creatures of the nanny state, so it is good conservatism that we are not introducing them. However, if we are to have a Queen’s Speech that is, shall we say, somewhat light and has lots of room in it, that means there are various other things that we could do. One thing we do not need to do, I would have thought, is persevere with the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill. I will not repeat all the arguments, but this is an area where many people in Lincolnshire feel that their opinions are being not represented.”
“They welcome Polish, Lithuanian and Latvian people, but they want their public services to be supported, when, on the coast of Lincolnshire, public services are overwhelmed. Since 2004, 1.1 million have arrived in this country from eastern Europe, and we have to address that issue.”
“That is an interesting argument. I have appended my name to the important amendment to the Queen’s Speech, and we should have a serious debate on the issue. This is not Conservative Members of Parliament obsessing about Europe; this is a real issue for people. It is no longer a dry as dust issue. In Boston, a seat with a 12,000 Conservative majority, UKIP won nearly every council seat two weeks ago. Unlike my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash), the people there are not particularly worried about all the details of European legislation, but they are worried about immigration. I echo what my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker) said in his very measured speech: people in Lincolnshire are not closet racists.”
“I do not believe we should ring-fence the budget of any Department. We should spend wisely and carefully on the right things at the right time. Whether we are talking about same-sex marriage, about the EU referendum or about the DFID budget, we must recognise that people are feeling a sense of alienation, and that good, strong Conservative voters do not feel that their Government are representing them all the time. Let us also put the focus on the Labour party, but let us concentrate on the core issue of getting rid of the deficit. Let us make that the successful mission of this Parliament.”
“They are paying £100 a year, and the money is going straight into the pockets of rich farmers, all in the name of dealing with global warming—if indeed there is global warming, if indeed carbon emissions are causing it and if indeed wind farms will make any difference. That all adds to people’s sense of alienation. People also worry about the budget for international development. I am personally in favour of spending money on international development, but we have a commitment to spend 0.7% of our gross national product, for which there is no scientific basis. As we reduce the number of staff in the Department for International Development, we are loading more burdens on the remaining staff to hand out more money. That is simply not good economics. It is not a good way to run a Department.”
“If we fail to listen to the people, we will create a sense of alienation and, despite all our success in driving through the Government’s central economic policies and tackling the deficit—the reason that the coalition was created and what we are really about—that would eat away at the support for the coalition. A sense of alienation is created when people are worried about their public services. People are worried about other issues as well. In the middle of my constituency, the Government are erecting wind turbines more than 150 metres high—taller than the highest point in the Lincolnshire wolds—that are being paid for by ordinary people living in terraced houses in Gainsborough.”
“Friend the Member for Mid Sussex (Nicholas Soames) that I believe that the Prime Minister is absolutely a man of honour and a gentleman, and there is no doubt in my mind that if he is still Prime Minister in 2017 we will have that referendum. The trouble is that ordinary people—if I may use that expression—do not think like us. They do not think in terms of four-year Parliaments; they think about now. The question they ask is, “If this is such an important issue, why can’t we have a referendum in the next two years?” There should at least be a mandate referendum that we can put to the British people, asking whether we should have a new relationship with Europe based on political co-operation and economic free trade.”
“I am sorry; I have only a short time left. Speaking personally as a comfortable, middle-class person living in the hinterland of the beautiful Lincolnshire wolds—where, incidentally, we held all the seats we were defending—and in a comfortable part of London, I have no angst about Poles. They are hard working, and I think that most of them will go back. Their religion is estimable, and I have no complaint whatever against them. But we should listen to the people who are worried about public services, and this is therefore a European issue. I personally believe that we should listen to those people and that we should have a referendum. I would also say to my right hon.”
“Is it not possible to be proud that this country created the European convention on human rights in 1948 to counter communism and fascism while also being dismayed that, because of judicial activism, the Court is interfering in the rights of this democratic Assembly to come to its own conclusions on issues such as prisoner voting rights?”
“Every time there is a scandal, the response of the British political establishment is to load more controls, accountability and bureaucracy on professionals, yet every nurse and doctor I meet is fed up with what already happens. As a result of the reforms, will the Secretary of State assure us that we will now trust professionals to get on with the job they love?”
“As usual, the Secretary of State is making a very good case. If most people do not notice any difference in the service provided by local government despite all the cuts, does that serve as a lesson for central Government as well?”
“If, as the right hon. Gentleman says, the cuts have not yet hit home, which is quite right, why does he think that they have fuelled the recession?”
“One advantage of the child tax allowance announced in the Budget is that it makes it almost inevitable that we will have to fulfil our coalition promise on a transferable tax allowance for married couples.”
“Member for Neath (Mr Hain), with characteristic chutzpah, to rewrite history, I am not sure that it is possible to argue that austerity has caused this recession when, in fact, we are spending more than ever before—despite the fact that the figures were manipulated for this Budget—and borrowing more than ever before. The central thrust of the Labour party’s argument, which is that the problems have been caused by this Government, does not add up and the British people do not think that it adds up. They want more positive suggestions from the Labour party that show what it would do better in the face of the desperate international situation.”
“Although we may bandy statistics across the House, we are dealing with a desperate situation—for which, by the way, I do not blame the Chancellor—and we should put at the forefront of our minds the appalling human tragedy of ordinary people who are being put out of work and who cannot find work. In my view, the best way to recreate the conditions in which people can find work is to create a balanced economy that can recreate confidence. Unfortunately, our public spending is unbalanced: half of our £730 billion or £750 billion budget is taken up by health and welfare, which are ring-fenced, and that puts enormous stresses and strains on all other budgets. Despite the attempt by the right hon.”
“I hope that the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) will forgive me if I do not follow on from what she said, but she spoke a lot of sense about air passenger duty and I agree with her. One of the most powerful points made by the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), who led for the Opposition, was when he mentioned somebody who visited his constituency surgery only last week who, after serving in a job for 30 years, had been made unemployed. As it happens, I had a similar case of somebody who had served for 30 years but who had now, through no fault of her own, been made unemployed, could not find a job and was in negative equity. That brings home to all of us the human nature of what we are dealing with.”
“It would be much better to have a flatter, simpler form of taxation so that people make their own decisions and do not rely on Government handouts, and so that we do not have a huge industry based on evasion and avoidance. We are creating a special child care allowance for people who want to put their children into child care. That is great, but why have we not fulfilled our pledge to introduce a married person’s tax allowance?”
“The problems that we face are difficult, complex and international. I am still firmly convinced that we need a strategy based on levelling taxation as much as is possible. The attempt to bring corporation tax more in line with small business tax is a first step. We should try to flatten all capital taxes and business taxes. We should then move on to income taxes and get rid of the plethora of allowances, which fuels an industry based on evasion and avoidance. At first sight, the excellent scheme that the Chancellor is trying to bring together to help with home loans is very good if it does not lead to a property bubble. However, it is a bit like somebody climbing a ladder with loads of our money, throwing it over the edge and saying, “May the fittest come and get it.” It is a bit like the person rushing towards the pool of Bethesda.”
“The incomes of 2007 will not be seen again until 2019. According to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, we will need a further £9 billion of cuts to public services after the next election. In 2015, there will be £70 billion more borrowing than was predicted in 2010. Any Budget giveaways—I accept that this Budget is politically astute—will be soaked up by inflation rising faster than wages. That point has already been made about the 1p cut in beer duty. One would have to drink five pints every night for seven nights to save 35p a week. I am not sure that will impress anybody. The cut in corporation tax is welcome, but that is only a small part of the total cost to business. Business rates have increased by 13% in three years and are the prime motivator against growth in the small business economy.”
“Absolutely. That shows the sort of difficulties in the Labour party’s arguments. If it is to form a Government, it must come up with a viable alternative. I do not support cutting for the sake of cutting. If Tesco has a problem in its bread department, it sells bread more efficiently; it does not cut the number of loaves it sells. I agree about that, but the Labour party cannot give simplistic solutions based on more wasteful spending, nor can it constantly say that our problems would be solved if we restored the 50% tax band, when every study proves that it reduced revenues to the Treasury. As we know, the top 1% of earners pay 24% of all tax revenues. Labour has to come up with something more intellectual and rational if it is to convince the British people that it is ready for government. The situation is dire.”
“We must change the culture of constantly tweaking things with Budgets and instead look to the long term and create a more simplified and effective tax system.”
“We are out of line. I am quite prepared not to hold the Government to account on their solemn promise to bring in a married tax allowance if they get rid of the other allowances and restore universal child benefit and all the other things. They cannot have it both ways. They cannot make it tax and benefit advantageous for a mother—it is usually a mother—to go out to work if they do not help mothers who want to stay at home and add to the economy by looking after their own children. That is unfair and something has to be done about it. We cannot carry on with Budgets that simply tweak things. We need a long-term strategy based on simplifying the tax system and on budgetary reform. We must remove as many of the allowances as possible.”
“Does the hon. Gentleman not agree with the Mandelson-Blair approach that the way forward for the Labour party is not to worry about how public services are funded, but to let the rich go on funding those services through taxation? What is wrong with that?”
“Will my good friend visit me in north Lincolnshire so that we can stand together on the edge of the Wolds, an area of outstanding natural beauty, near the Ramblers church at Walesby and look at the amazing Lincolnshire clay and the 40-mile view? Will he then come back in 10 years’ time to see that great view desecrated by vast arrays of windmills 100 metres high, all in the name of some controversial science? Can we not place these windmills somewhere where they do not desecrate our lives?”
“I rise with some trepidation to speak on this subject, first because I am not sure it is any of my business as I am not a member of the Church of England, but I do think it is only fair that somebody—without necessarily forcing a vote or being controversial—just mentions one or two points that are important for this House. Personally, I am completely agnostic on this issue, and I think I should be, because it is not for me to—”
“Let us be calm, cool and collected about this. Let us recognise that the Church of England will move at its own pace and let us not interfere, as politicians, in how the Church of England is run. Question put (Standing Order No. 23) and agreed to. Ordered, That Diana Johnson, Mr Ben Bradshaw, Barbara Keeley, Roberta Blackman-Woods, Andrew Gwynne, Helen Goodman, Barry Gardiner, Mr David Winnick, Mr Frank Field, Chris Bryant, Mrs Sharon Hodgson and Lyn Brown present the Bill. Diana Johnson accordingly presented the Bill. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 3 May 2013 and to be printed (Bill 148).”
“They have sincere religious beliefs that should surely be discussed in their own Church and not in Parliament. They believe—I am not commenting on whether this is right or wrong—that the Church of England is the catholic church; although it is an established Church and an Anglican Church, it is a catholic church. It is based on the traditions of the Catholic Church that the apostles were all men. I am not going to get involved in all these arguments, but these people have strong beliefs about that. I understand that progress is being made and some compromise will be worked out whereby people who feel sincerely that their religious principles are threatened will have some sort of process to ensure that their bishops are of a traditional kind—men, not women—and so on. That is the discussion taking place at the moment.”
“They believe it is entirely wrong that the Church of England should refuse to conduct weddings for same-sex couples, and they are perfectly entitled to that view. They believe that to be discrimination on the part of the Church of England, but Parliament has decided that in that matter the Church of England should be entirely independent. That is an entirely right point of view, so this Bill would embark on a dangerous course of action. I understand from conversations I have had, particularly those with our Second Church Estates Commissioner, that progress is being made on this subject, even though strong beliefs are held in the House of Laity. Careful discussions are being held. The people who oppose this measure may not be right, but they are honourable people.”
“I ask the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) to accept, however, that many people also believe that the Church of England should be independent. There is another reason that we must bear in mind, which the hon. Lady mentioned when she said, “Surely when matters of discrimination are involved, Parliament should get involved.” That is a dangerous state of affairs. Have we not been assured all through the debates about same-sex marriage that the Church of England was absolutely secure and nobody could take it to court for discrimination because all sorts of checks and balances were being put in place to protect it? Many people feel passionately about same-sex marriage.”
“As you will know, Mr Speaker, until quite recently Prime Ministers had a very wide degree of latitude in the appointment of bishops. The last Labour Prime Minister withdrew from that process altogether, however, and there is now a very careful procedure in the Church of England, with senior people in the Church deciding who will be bishops and names then going to the Queen. Effectively, therefore, the Church of England appoints its own bishops. That is entirely right. The Prime Minister is in no shape involved. For all those reasons, I think it would be extraordinarily dangerous, and a retrograde step, if Parliament were now to get involved, however strongly we feel about this issue, and even though everybody realises that there is enormous interest in it and many people believe it is absolutely right that women should become bishops.”
“That is why from the 1920s we created the current modern governance system in the Church of England whereby although it is in theory an established Church—something I strongly approve of, because it is important that we give an impression that we are still a Christian country— it should also be independent of Parliament in terms of doctrine and structure. I believe that is the modern, progressive and right thing to do. I do not think it is right that Members of Parliament, who are politicians, should decide how the Church of England runs its own affairs, whether in terms of the shape of the Prayer Book, who can become priests, or whether it can have women priests or women bishops. It is not for us, as politicians, to make that choice. There was a further advance.”
“I oppose the Bill for the following reasons. I am completely agnostic on this issue. The Church of England is not my Church and I think it is for the Church of England to decide on it. That is important. In previous centuries when there were matters of controversy within the Church of England, this House of Commons was very closely involved. Indeed, in the 1920s there were great debates about the nature of the Prayer Book. The Church of England wanted to move forward in a liberal direction and to allow alternative versions of the Bible to be read in their churches. There were debates in this House, and the House was more reactionary on the issue and opposed the reform. After those fierce debates, it was decided to move forward and in effect to give the Church of England independence.”
“We now come to a most interesting debate on the licensing of the reburial of King Richard III. I am sure that hon. Members will not be guilty of lèse-majesté in their comments.”
“Order. It is my job to arbitrate this modern war of the roses. We must give the Minister a decent amount of time, and I would be grateful if the hon. Member for York Outer (Julian Sturdy) kept his remarks brief.”
“Order. It seems that poor Richard III is as controversial in death as in life. I thank hon. Members for the dignified way they have dealt with this difficult subject.”
“T4. Is the Secretary of State aware that Conservative Members support his courage and his battles in trying to reduce the crippling burden of the social security budget? In particular, may I commend his quiet courtesy this weekend in reminding the Archbishop of Canterbury that trapping people in dependency is not necessarily a Christian response? What the Secretary of State is doing is a good and positive way of making work pay.”
“Unfortunately, Richard III did not have much time to plan his funeral. I do not think he would have been very worried about where he was buried, but he did live and die a Catholic, and so at his funeral could there not be some aspect of Catholicism to represent his life’s work?”
“A number of external reviews are in place to provide independent assessments of the quality of the National Audit Office’s work: the NAO’s financial audit work is subject to independent review by the audit quality review team of the Financial Reporting Council; the quality of the NAO’s value-for-money reports is independently reviewed by independent experts from Oxford university’s Said business school and Risk Solutions; and the NAO’s external auditors conduct an annual value-for-money assessment, which is reported to the Public Accounts Commission.”