Sir Edward Leigh
MP for Gainsborough · Conservative · United Kingdom
“Those of us who love the Jewish people and faith know that the reason why they have overcome all the empires that have tried to destroy them is that they are primarily people of the book and not the sword, but what is happening in the west bank is violent and egregious.”
“I am grateful to the Secretary of State for looking again at Lincolnshire. I made the point to her predecessor that the proposal for a Greater Lincolnshire authority was, in the eyes of many people, just a gerrymander. Will she look again at it and stop dividing West Lindsey and North Kesteven in half?”
“If the centre does not take action, nasty extremes will take over. The fact is that we are in acute danger. These people can now launch from anywhere on the north French coast and are escorted to our shores. Frankly, we are being invaded, and the public are completely fed up.”
“May I congratulate the Prime Minister on what he said about Ukraine and on how he conducted himself there? Our enemies should know that this House is completely and utterly united in standing behind the Ukrainian people.”
“What concerns me is the jobs of my constituents who work at Scunthorpe. That is all I am worried about; I have no ideological objection. If it is what is needed now, fair enough. As long as the blast furnaces are totally uneconomic because of high energy costs, however, it can only be a sticking plaster.”
“One of the poorest wards in the entire country is Gainsborough south-west ward. Why is the Secretary of State splitting West Lindsey in half? Why is he taking Scampton away from Gainsborough? It makes no sense. Why is he cutting away the nuclear fusion site from Lincoln?”
The complete record
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“Members attending physically should clean the spaces before they use them and when they leave the room. I remind Members that Mr Speaker has stated that masks should be worn in Westminster Hall.”
“I remind hon. Members that there have been some changes to normal practice in order to support the new hybrid arrangements. Timings of debates have been amended to allow technical arrangements to be made for the next debate. There will also be suspensions between each debate. I remind Members participating physically and virtually that they must arrive for the start of debates in the Boothroyd Room, and are expected to remain for the entire debate. I must also remind Members participating virtually that they are visible at all times, I am afraid, both to each other and to us in the Boothroyd Room—so you are on “Candid Camera”, but you are all very good looking. If Members attending virtually have any technical problems, they should email the Westminster Hall Clerks email address.”
“Scott Morrison, the Australian Prime Minister, has just announced that he has no plans to open up his borders. Of course, he is absolutely right. I am speaking—I apologise—completely with the benefit of hindsight, but I am sure everybody would agree that if we had done what Australia had done, we could have opened up our economy months ago. It has had only 910 deaths and only 29,000 infections. What I want to hear from the Secretary of State is that he will resist the very powerful lobbyists from the travel and airline industries and from airports, and that he will be absolutely determined to follow the evidence, not allow unnecessary travel—we do not know what variants are out there in the world—and be really tough with the red list.”
“We will always miss him and today we salute him.”
“I was struck not so much by what he said, but by the fact that here was a man well into his 80s, even into his 90s, still carrying on. All over the western world, there is a cult of youth and older people are shoved aside and expected to be certainly not heard and perhaps not even seen, but here was a man who kept going well into his 90s. That is such an inspiration for so many older people. I want to pay tribute to the Duke of Edinburgh as a man of the countryside and as a man of deep faith. That is summed up by something that he wrote: “If God is in nature, nature itself becomes divine, and from that point it becomes reasonable to argue that reverence for God and nature implies a responsibility not to harm it, not just for our own selfish interests, but also as a duty to the creator.” He was a very great man and a deep thinker.”
“The fact that he did this for decades is a staggering compliment to him, especially as it was not easy for such a man of action. I like to think of Prince Philip as a patron saint of perseverance. One of the biggest challenges we face in our country is that of marital breakdown. We know that we cannot turn a spotlight on other people’s marriages. We know that marriage is difficult and has many challenges, but imagine being in a marriage where the spotlight is always on you and having to sustain that. That can only be sustained out of love. What a tremendous example the Duke of Edinburgh is to families up and down the country. I therefore like to think of him as a patron saint of perseverance. I remember when the Duke came to Lincoln as a very old man to open the frieze on the front of the cathedral.”
“We all know that receiving lines, whether as a member of the chain gang, the local Member of Parliament or visiting royalty, can be quite a trial—let us be honest about it—with the small talk, but he had this amazing knack of putting everybody at ease with a joke and getting really to the heart of matters. In a world of increasingly anaemic politics and conversation of many public figures, I like to think of him as the patron saint of a sort of lack of political correctness—of speaking your mind—and I think that is terribly important. I think it is particularly important to remember the Duke as a patron saint of all those who are forced in life to do what they do not really want to do, which is to perform a subordinate role and always be walking behind the person who is more important.”
“Queen Victoria ensured that the meetings of the Privy Council were so boring and so long that ever since then Privy Counsellors have been forced to conduct the meetings standing up, which makes them very short, although I can say from my personal experience that the Queen concentrates all the time, wedded as she is to her duty. I met the Duke on other occasions of course, but I remember once when we were all invited to Buckingham Palace, and of course I was late, unfortunately—typical— and a presence emerged behind me, and it was the Duke. He made it quite clear that he had noticed that my wife and I were late, and we got a right good ticking off, and then we had a fantastic conversation. I think it is a marvellous aspect of the man that so many people in this debate have said that they met him.”
“I first met Prince Philip over 40 years ago, when I was a young councillor. He came to County Hall, and of course one was shy and did not really know what to say, so I said to him quite proudly, “Sir, you might know my father: he’s the clerk of the Privy Council.” I was expecting some conventional remark, which by now would have been completely forgotten, but quick as a flash, he said, “The Privy Council—what a boring and pointless institution! Thank God the meetings do not go on too long.” Of course, in all those comments he actually showed how astute he was.”
“They should be allowed to run their own affairs.”
“Will the Secretary of State be honest and open with the House? He quotes section 9 of the 2019 Act. This House took the fact that the Assembly was not sitting as an excuse to impose its views on Northern Ireland. The Assembly is now sitting. The abortion industry talks about the right to choose; what about the right to choose of the people of Northern Ireland? What would happen if they tried to impose their views on us? The fact of the matter is that Northern Ireland can run its own Government as long as they keep doing things that we do not disagree with. This is not democracy. Whatever our views on abortion, the Secretary of State is putting the Union at risk. The fact is that the overwhelming majority of the people of Northern Ireland believe in the sanctity of life. They oppose abortion. They have their own devolved Administration.”
“Our present asylum system is a complete joke. Every young man living in misery in a failed state knows that if he manages to reach our shores, the chances of his being deported are virtually zero. There is no point in introducing more and more penalties and laws unless we are prepared to deport people. Is the Home Secretary prepared to do what Prime Minister Abbott of Australia did? He ensured that all arrivals were put in a secure location and left there until their claims were assessed and then either deported or allowed to stay, and there are now no unsafe arrivals in Australia, no deaths and no criminal gangs. That policy works. Is the Home Secretary prepared to be really tough in order to be kind?”
“The Minister, in his statement, talked of a productive relationship with the industry. One way in which the MOD can have a far more productive relationship with the industry is through the use of MOD sites that become surplus to requirements. The Ministry has announced that RAF Scampton is to close in 2022, although there is now a rumour that it might stay open. In the past when the RAF has walked away from a base, it has pulled out the plug and left behind low-grade housing and farmland; we have enough farmland in Lincolnshire, including 600 square miles in my constituency. I want the Minister to promise me today that he will really get going on RAF Scampton when it becomes surplus to requirements and try to make it a hub for industry—an exciting place, not just inadequate housing and farmland. Will he take action this day?”
“But the fact remains that Brexit has happened, so an independent Scotland would have to apply to rejoin the EU. Leaving aside whether it would be wise for Scotland to replace union with a country that is right next door to it with one with a body that is hundreds of miles away, why does the hon. Gentleman think that Spain, with its problems of Catalonia, would ever facilitate Scotland rejoining the EU?”
“We do not want to waste police time. Over the years I have formed an unlikely alliance with people such as Peter Tatchell, particularly with the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014, to ensure that we enshrine in law your ability, Madam Deputy Speaker, my ability, or anybody’s ability to insult people and cause offence. Thinking particularly of clause 59, will my right hon. Friend assure me that nothing in the Bill will have a chilling effect on the right to debate and, if necessary, cause offence?”
“Let us have value for money. That is what the taxpayer wants.”
“Some people overstate their case by saying that the state of this building is ruinous, but one thing that is certain is that the public finances are in ruins. So will the Leader of the House take this opportunity to make it clear that, when it comes to the restoration and renewal of Parliament, the absolute first priority of Government is value for money? In this context, will he note that the House has never voted to demolish the grade I listed Richmond House? It is a listed building, and there is the issue of carbon and all the other issues. Can the Leader of the House have an open mind about it and learn from our experience of working virtually by perhaps not having a September sitting and, above all, getting on with the work now? In this report, where it says, “What is the cost?”, the whole thing is blanked out. What is going on here?”
“Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. When I was on the Procedure Committee, I was instrumental in getting that committee to ensure that we had proper debates on estimates days. On a previous occasion, when I tried to speak about the estimates on estimates days, I was ruled out of order by your predecessor. We have made progress, but I would have thought that the whole debate to which my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell) alluded, shows that we can continue to make progress on this and improve parliamentary scrutiny on estimates. In particular, we should follow up the recommendations of the Procedure Committee in the previous Parliament that we should have a proper Budget committee. I appreciate that you are constrained by present rules, Mr Speaker, but I hope you will forgive me if I make that point.”
“Order. Because Members have gone on beyond five minutes, I have to reduce the time limit again, otherwise not everybody will get in. The time limit is now four minutes.”
“Speaking as a grandfather, it has been a very interesting debate. Question put and agreed to. Resolved, That this House has considered maternal mental health.”
“23) and agreed to. Ordered, That Sir David Amess, Ian Byrne, Dr Lisa Cameron, Tracey Crouch, Geraint Davies, Sir Roger Gale, Chris Loder, Kerry McCarthy, Andrew Rosindell, Dean Russell, Henry Smith and Theresa Villiers present the Bill. Sir David Amess accordingly presented the Bill. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 272).”
“I am just repeating what the industry is saying and it is right that such a vital industry should be heard in this House. What is absolutely certain, though, is that we do not want unnecessarily to increase the number of deaths of piglets. With regard to alternatives, there is, of course, a shortage of suitable free-draining land. I personally believe that the best way forward is to continue discussions with the industry. We have to think about stock person safety and the mental wellbeing of farm workers. We have to look at alternatives and possible trade deals and equivalence. All these issues are very important. I commend my hon. Friend for bringing this Bill forward, but I am afraid that it is not ready to become law yet. Let us work together to protect pigs wisely and not rashly. I oppose this Bill. Question put (Standing Order No.”
“Of course the industry, aware of the problems and of public opinion, is constantly developing new systems, but it does need time to find solutions that bring down pig mortality. These crates were introduced to save piglets’ lives. They were not introduced out of cruelty. They were introduced by farmers who love their animals and are absolutely committed to animal welfare. The present system, therefore, is right for animal welfare. It avoids deaths. I have spoken with the National Pig Association. It tells me that, if the Bill passes in its present form, it could result in up to 1 million baby piglets dying each year. This is foreseeable and preventable. Hon. Friends may disagree with that. I am not an expert and they are not experts.”
“Too many piglets will simply die if this Bill becomes law, and we know that solving one problem by creating another is generally not wise. That is what this Bill would do. Of course, as my hon. Friend said, we have tried this before. In 1999, a dry sow stalls ban was introduced. The result was a greatly damaged pig industry. According to the industry, it was pretty much cut in half. The UK then imported larger and larger quantities of EU pork using the very stalls that were illegal in the UK. It was 14 years before that total ban was loosened. Progress is constantly being made in the British pig sector and, in terms of animal welfare, it is far ahead of most other pig-producing countries in the world. It should be said that 40% of the national sow herd farrow freely outdoors in outdoor pig units.”
“However, I disagree about the best way to achieve it when it comes to the issue of piglet welfare, and let me explain why. Agriculture, at this time of Brexit, is in a state of transition. There are many challenges facing agriculture, including covid and customs difficulties, but the real reason why this Bill is not appropriate is that alternative farrowing systems simply allow too many piglets to die. I fully understand the problems of existing farrowing crates. Nobody denies that. No one likes the idea of not allowing a mother sow to turn around. I speak having spoken to the pig industry here, and we must be entirely frank that this situation is not ideal, but, unfortunately, acceptable alternatives simply do not exist at present.”
“My hon. Friend the Member for Southend West (Sir David Amess) and I have served together in the House for nearly 38 years. As well as being one of my oldest friends, he is a first-rate constituency MP and he speaks very well for all his constituents in his largely urban seat. In all fairness, however, I think that the voice of farmers should also be heard. I represent the constituency of Gainsborough—600 square miles of north Lincolnshire countryside, with very varied agriculture, including a number of pig farmers. As my hon. Friend said, both of us have been campaigning for Brexit for many years and this is an opportunity to further animal welfare. I am wholly in favour of any measures to try to improve animal welfare. I love animals as much as he does.”
“In the middle of an emergency, value for money goes out of the window, and I am sure that terrible mistakes were made in the tendering process, but on the central charge that contracts were awarded to cronies, I am mystified why that should have taken place if civil servants and not Ministers took the decision. Does my hon. Friend accept that the best way to resolve these issues is to take them out of party politics and let the National Audit Office get on with its job? No doubt in time, the Public Accounts Committee will issue coruscating reports that are very wise with the benefit of hindsight.”
“I was in and out literally within 10 minutes. Like all the wars we fight, perhaps we do not perform very well at first, but we exit well; we have exited this war against the virus more effectively than any other country in Europe, and that is down to this Government and this Prime Minister. As with all Budgets, we have to be realistic. I may make some gentle criticism, but I fully accept that the Chancellor has been faced today with an impossible task.”
“I cannot agree with the hon. Member for Wallasey (Dame Angela Eagle). I personally believe that, faced with the most severe challenge for any Government since the second world war, this Chancellor and his Budget are entirely realistic. We are and must remain the party of sound Budgets, and we must return to borrowing only to pay for investment. That is our long-term aim, but faced with this pandemic, we have to make accommodations. Although I commend the Chancellor for his Budget, the most important thing, of course, is to get the economy moving again and get us out of lockdown. The success of the vaccine roll-out, which will get the economy moving, has been absolutely staggering. Only this morning, I went to Lord’s cricket ground—probably the only time I shall ever be invited there, to the executive suite—for my second jab.”
“Global giants can hire entire departments of tax advisers. I therefore agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Sir John Hayes): let us look after middle-class people, who pay PAYE and bear the brunt of all tax increases, and let us direct tax increases at those who can pay, namely the digital giants.”
“Perhaps I am a bit of a broken record on this, but I do believe in transparency, and I believe that ultimately we should try to reform our whole tax system. The TaxPayers’ Alliance has counted 1,651 tax changes since May 2010, including: 58 changes to air passenger duty; 130 changes to national insurance; 68 changes to stamp duty; 256 changes to VAT; 53 changes to tobacco duty; and 258 changes to vehicle excise duty. Our tax code is 17,000 pages long—or it was in 2015; it is even longer now. We should compare that with the tax code of an enterprise economy such as Hong Kong, which is only 350 pages long. As things get easier next year, my plea to the Chancellor is to make our taxes clear, simple and fair. Tax complexity creates a structural bias in favour of the very rich and the big corporations, and that is not fair.”
“My right hon. Friend makes an entirely valid point. One of the points that I want to make in my short contribution is that we have to accept that the high street and small businesses have moved on. The truth is that we have a very unequal tax system. Giants such as Amazon are paying an infinitely small proportion of their profits and turnover in business rates, and are driving small businesses and shops out of the high street. I personally think that there is something to be said for abolishing business rates all together. How would we pay for that? We could actually pay for it through a 3% increase on VAT on all businesses. That, of course, would hit the very large businesses such as Amazon, which pay derisory levels of tax, very hard indeed. My right hon. Friend makes a very fair point. May I repeat what I say in every Budget?”
“The situation in southern Cameroon is indeed deeply concerning. What is happening there to the anglophone minority of some 5 million people is terrible. There are numerous human rights abuses. The francophone president—a corrupt dictator—has been in power since 1982, and is refusing to devolve any power at all to the English-speaking minority. Will the Government now act? Will the Foreign Secretary, at the highest level, take it up with our French allies, as they have enormous influence in francophone Africa? Will the Minister for Africa do the equivalent of old gunboat diplomacy in our soft-power age, and himself visit southern Cameroon to take up this issue, and try to help our English-speaking friends who we betrayed back in 1962?”
“Will he be absolutely up-front and honest with people, and say that it is unwise to book summer holidays now because there may be these mutants and it is better to hold off? I think that people accept the Government being tough, as long as they are consistent, particularly on foreign travel.”
“This morning I received an email from a lady who is extremely clinically vulnerable. For perfectly good medical reasons, she cannot receive a flu jab or a covid jab, so she is very concerned that she will not be able to leave her front door if we bring in covid passports. For reasons of civil liberties, will the Secretary of State make it absolutely clear that we are not interested in bringing in covid passports internally, but that they are useful for foreign travel? I say to the shadow Secretary of State that, with the benefit of hindsight, perhaps we should have introduced a hotel quarantine system much sooner. Will the Secretary of State make it clear that he will resist the travel lobby?”
“May I urge the Government not to take an Uber free market approach in these matters, and to recall that the Conservative party has a long history of defending workers from ruthless entrepreneurs? For instance, in the 19th century, Disraeli resisted attempts by the then Liberal Government to prevent workers from picketing when on strike. Can the Minister be absolutely robust today and say, following the question from the hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Andy McDonald), that we believe this is a landmark judgment and that Uber must now accept that its hard-working drivers, many of whom have come from abroad and deserve protection, are employed and deserve all the rights of fully employed people?”
“Some of us think that this allegedly Conservative Government are already spending far too much and regulating too much. Will the hon. Lady make the commitment that Mr Blair and Mr Brown made when the Labour party was last in opposition: that whatever happens, a future Labour Government would not spend a greater proportion of national income on the public sector?”
“It seems to me that many of the 88 people who have gone before me and been critical of the Prime Minister have been wise after the event, so let me now do precisely that and plead guilty to the charge. If severe quarantine measures had from the very start been as effective as those in Australia, and, equally, if tough local lockdowns had been as effective as those in China, does that not rather beg the question—why we did not do it over a year ago? I do not say that to be difficult, but to learn for the future and to ponder on what we should do next time. I think many people in the country think it is better to be tough on foreign travel than tough on children attending schools.”
“I warmly support the Bill, but can Her Majesty’s Government confirm that only a biological woman can have a baby? Will the Minister therefore explain to me why the Bill refers to “a person” and not to “a woman”? If we are going to adopt extreme gender ideology, why are the Government doing it by stealth and why can we not have a transparent debate on the matter? This insults the dignity of many women.”
“May I once again say a word on behalf of a group of people who hardly ever get a mention in this Chamber, namely, the poor, benighted general taxpayers? Barely a single one of my 75,000 constituents lives in a house or block of flats over four storeys high, and although they live in poor rural areas they are once again being asked to bail others out—in this case, greedy developers in wealthy areas. Can we have a balance? Before I finish, may I also ask my right hon. Friend about Lincoln University, which has been forced to reclad one of its residences? What discussions has he had with the universities and with his Education colleague on this issue?”
“In warmly welcoming what the Secretary of State has said today, the question that I have to ask, like many people, is why we did not do this over a year ago. After all, we are an island. If we had done what the Australians and New Zealanders have done, perhaps we would not have had to close our schools for all this time. I am saying this to support the Secretary of State when he is locked in Cabinet discussions with people who say that we have to protect the travel industry or the aircraft industry. I would say: let us have tough quarantine regimes, like Australia and New Zealand, and tough, enforced local lockdowns like China. Let us get a grip on this rather than just saying that it is more important to keep the travel industry open than our schools.”
“I do not know whether the Minister heard my saying in the last debate that I am worried about the courts dealing with this in the absence of a defendant. However, I also expressed my worry about vexatious motions against our allies—Israel, Turkey, Saudi Arabia. How can the Minister assure me that there will not be a series of vexatious motions coming to this parliamentary Committee? Can we ensure that the Committee’s terms of reference are tightly drawn, so that it can actually deal with clear cases of genocide?”
“So may we have an urgent debate on this matter, get on with the work, if necessary close Parliament down except virtually between July and October, and work in double-shifts and perhaps bring in Front-Bench spokesmen to a pop-up Parliament in the atrium of Portcullis House, but above all get on with the work and pursue value for money?”
“The Leader of the House mentioned the Queen’s Champion. Actually, my right hon. Friend, with his style, would make a very good Queen’s Champion, but unfortunately the post is held by the lord of the manor of Scrivelsby in the county of Lincolnshire. Can I suggest to him, though, that he becomes another champion—a champion for good value for money? Since the House voted by a very narrow margin to demolish a perfectly serviceable Richmond House and erect a temporary Chamber at vast cost, everything has changed. The country is broke and we have proved, have we not, that we can run Parliament virtually if we have to?”
“My right hon. Friend will be aware of the very serious campaign to take action against China because of the treatment of the Uyghurs, and we are asked to produce motions on genocide, but it seems to me that now we have left the European Union, that action is now in our hands, so will he confirm that we can now take robust action against the Chinese Government in the form of sanctions, perhaps against the fashion industry or on importing cotton from that part of China? We now have the freedom to act if we want to, and I hope that the Government will.”
“I support everything that the Minister has said in her condemnation of the Putin regime in relation to Mr Navalny, and commend her balanced approach. Ever since I married my Russian Orthodox wife, I have tried to understand Russia and the sensitivities of the Russian people. Will the Minister make it clear that, while we condemn the Putin regime, there will be nothing Russophobe about our attitude? That means we need to understand Russian cultural and historical sensitivities. On the Council of Europe, engagement with Russian parliamentarians may sometimes be useful—as Winston Churchill said, “Jaw-jaw is better than war-war.””
“It is welcome that, under new management in the Labour party, the country can probably rest assured that after an interlude the Labour party has returned to the attitude that prevailed under the Blair and Brown leaderships and can be trusted on security issues. I hope therefore, in that spirit of bipartisanship, the Labour party will think carefully about dividing the House and recognise that many of the arguments promoted by the Solicitor General actually made a lot of sense. We might put our agents’ lives at risk if we were to set limits on what could be authorised, so I hope the hon. Gentleman can give me a reassuring reply on that.”
“Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden that if it is a choice between my daughters being blown up on the London tube and there being some slight and occasional infringement of the human rights of terrorists and potential terrorists, I know where my choice is. I think that the public are also on this space.”
“I understand the motivation of what has been said in the other place, and I can understand why people are adducing these arguments based on human rights, but there is a possibility that if we were to accept these Lords amendments we would be putting the lives of our own people at risk. The most powerful point made by the Solicitor General was almost at the beginning of his speech when he said that the state should not prosecute people for actions that the state asks them to do. These people are working for us. They are working to defend our people, and I have to say to my right hon.”
“We all know that there are absolutely ruthless people who care nothing about our values and who are prepared to destroy and kill innocent people. This is not a game of cricket, and we cannot play and defeat these people by traditional policing methods. We cannot rely simply on bugging their mobile phones. As my right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East, who speaks with more experience than anybody else as Chairman of the Intelligence and Security Committee, said, we rely absolutely on covert intelligence sources: people going into these organisations and acting with extraordinary bravery.”