Kirsty Blackman
MP for Aberdeen North · Scottish National Party · United Kingdom
“I first raised the issue of self-generated images in Parliament more than four years ago. I have asked almost every single Culture, Media and Sport team about the issue of livestreaming. I am pleased to hear from the Secretary of State that action is being taken, and about the belt-and-braces approach that is coming in.”
“Labour promised £200 million for Grangemouth, none of which has materialised. Labour promised 1,000 jobs for GB Energy, and it turns out that a third of the 130 delivered so far are not actually in Scotland.”
“There is a geographical divide on this issue starker than I have ever seen in this place. Across all parties, every Member representing a Scottish constituency has stressed the issue of jobs, and how important this is to the north-east of Scotland.”
“There is a fundamental question here about what our priority is. Is it to reduce the bill, to reduce the amount of money that we are spending, or to ensure that disabled people can access all the human rights that the rest of us can, access society and be supported? We must recognise the extra costs of disability. What is the priority?”
“May I continue to encourage the Minister to talk to Social Security Scotland and our colleagues in the SNP Government about their experiences of the adult disability payment and whether the changes that have been implemented in Scotland would make a positive difference to those claiming PIP?”
“I will point out where things are today and how we can improve them, rather than looking at what was done in the past, but first, I recognise that although Pride is about celebration, it is also about being angry. We should be angry about the injustices.”
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“The fact that it is a streamlined subsidy scheme does not mean that it has to apply across the UK. I did not get a straight answer from the Minister about devolved competencies. Is it intended that the UK Government will make streamlined subsidy schemes that trespass on areas of devolved competency and apply those across the UK? If that is the case, I am even more concerned about this than I already was. If they are going to do that only in reserved areas, that makes sense, but given the Government’s tendency to reduce the power of the Scottish Parliament and the other devolved Administrations, I am not sure that I have a huge amount of trust in the fact that the streamlined subsidy schemes will not trespass on the devolved areas.”
“Just to come back on what the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton said, business rates are already devolved in Scotland. We already have a more generous system of allowances. People at the lower end of income, pay or value of properties pay less than they would in England anyway. So we already have that in place. It does not have to come in as part of a subsidy scheme or streamlined subsidy scheme, as far as I am aware. The hon. Member for Feltham and Heston is correct. The Minister seems to be saying that the schemes will apply across the UK, but nothing in the Bill says that this will apply across the UK for any of the streamlined subsidy schemes that come through. The Government could create a streamlined subsidy scheme that applied only in Blackpool, for example.”
“To flip that on its head, if the Minister expects and hopes that the regime will be implemented in autumn 2022, will he confirm that he also expects and hopes that the regulations under this clause will be made in advance of the summer recess in 2022 to allow authorities the time to look at them properly and digest them in advance of the scheme coming in?”
“If the UK Government are to proceed without the consent of the devolved Administrations, they must come and explain to us why. I note that the UK Government and Scottish Government, as well as the other Administrations, have regular conversations about how things could go forward, but I feel there is a significant amount of disagreement at the moment in many areas. It would be very good if we could all come to an agreement about what “particular interest” means. If we cannot, I believe that this House should know why the UK Government think that agreement has not been reached, and why they intend to proceed anyway.”
“For me, it seems like the very least that the UK Government should do if something proceeds without consent. That is important in relation to legislative consent motions for primary legislation where something trips over into devolved competencies, as we have seen a number of times in recent years. When it comes to these regulations, I think it is really important that the devolved Administrations are in agreement with what happens, because, in the main, they will be guaranteed authorities implementing subsidy schemes in the devolved areas. The Scottish Parliament has authority over the local authorities in Scotland so it will oversee some of their work, particularly when it comes to directing them how to best improve their local areas.”
“I have a couple of points on this amendment, and I want to give it my wholehearted backing. I agree that the devolved Administrations should be consulted on these regulations. I would probably go further and have them not proceed if the devolved Administrations did not agree, but we are where we are. I am a serving member of the Procedure Committee, and we have discussed this at huge length recently in our report and our look at how the territorial constitution works, and how the devolved Administrations relate. One thing that is brought up regularly is that if the UK Government proceed with something in the absence of legislative consent, there is no clear mechanism for the UK Government to explain to Parliament why the process has happened in advance of legislative consent.”
“Does the shadow Minister agree that because the clause deals specifically with schemes of interest and of particular interest, it is pretty unlikely that a situation will arise whereby an economic failure needs to be addressed in the space of a month, but cannot be addressed because the Government cannot change the definition of “interest” or “particular interest”?”
“They should do so not just in relation to subsidies, but in relation to the energy and environment principles. I probably would have written schedule 2 slightly differently. I maybe would have had slightly different energy and environment principles, including the Opposition’s suggestions around net zero, but given that those are in the Bill and that schedule 2 is in the Bill, it is totally reasonable for us to say that those authorities should consider the energy and environment in everything they do. That is not explicit or even implicit in schedule 1, in terms of the concerns that authorities have to look at with regard to the principles there. This is hugely important.”
“This proposal would ensure that consideration was given to the energy and environment principles in schedule 2 in relation to every subsidy that was given. That is not too much for us to ask of granting authorities. They are giving subsidies, and we have to remember that the subsidies they are giving represent significant amounts of money. We are talking about hundreds of thousands of pounds; we are not talking about when a local authority gives a grant of 100 quid to a small community council to put up Christmas lights. As we are talking about big sums of money, it is totally reasonable that we expect these public authorities—which do anyway a huge amount of audit, and a huge amount of sense checking of any spend that they do and consideration of any spend that they do— to think about all that spend.”
“I beg to move amendment 17, in clause 13, page 7, line 30, leave out “in relation to energy and environment”. This amendment would require public authorities to consider energy and environment principles when giving any subsidies, not just those related to energy and environment . The reason I tabled the amendment is something that we covered earlier today in relation particularly to net zero and thinking about the obligations that we all have to ensure the protection of the environment. I think it is really important, as the Minister agreed earlier today, that in every policy decision that is being made by every authority, whether it is granting a subsidy or doing anything else, those authorities are considering the environmental principles of that decision.”
“I think that, actually, schedule 2 does provide some environmental protections; I am quite comfortable in saying that. It does not do everything I would have wanted it to do. It does not create a requirement to meet the carbon commitments and move towards net zero in the consideration of the principles. However, increasing the level of environmental protection is in there, and it is important that all authorities are thinking about increasing the level of environmental protection in whatever they are doing. Now is the time for the UK Government to make that explicit in relation to everything that everybody is doing, whether it is subsidies or something else. That is why the amendment has been tabled.”
“That should be part of the decision-making process for every decision we make, whether it is about training young people or building an offshore wind farm. My concern, which was raised by the Opposition this morning, is that that is not embedded in everything the UK Government are doing, and it should be. I tabled this amendment because net zero should run through everything that everybody does, but I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.”
“I thank the Minister, the Opposition and the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton for their comments. I agree that this amendment is not the best possible way of achieving our aim, and that other amendments moved this morning—particularly the amendment to schedule 1—would be a better way to go about embedding net zero in our commitments. Unfortunately, the will of the Committee was tested this morning, and schedule 1 went unamended. Hopefully it will be amended on Report, or the Government may choose to change it to include net zero commitments in the principles, but this is where we are in the absence of them doing so. If we are talking about subsidies to get young people into employment, every local authority, or whoever is granting the subsidy, should ensure that they do so in a way that does not take us away from our net zero targets.”
“I have a quick question on subsection (7), which says that a direction given under subsections (4) or (6) must “be laid before Parliament” and “be published in whatever manner the Secretary of State considers appropriate.” It makes sense that it is laid before Parliament. I am not sure what that means, although I probably should. Does it mean that a written statement on the changes is laid before Parliament? Do the words “be published in whatever manner the Secretary of State considers appropriate” mean that it will be published for the public or for granting authorities to see? What method does the Minister think might be considered appropriate? Are we talking about putting it on gov.uk, for example, or about writing to organisations to let them know why the changes have happened?”
“Specifically on that point, if the Minister does not mind, does “laid before Parliament” mean a written statement or does it mean regulation? I am confused. If he does not have an answer, I would be happy to speak to him later.”
“Specifically on the words “must be published”, I would be keen to know how the Government might publish the direction. I am not asking the Minister to tie himself down, but I want clarity that it will be published in such a way that those who are affected by it are likely to see it, rather than it being hidden away somewhere in the back of gov.uk, where they would not trip across it unless by accident.”
“This is one of the issues that has frustrated me most about the entire Brexit thing: a whole bunch of left-wing Brexiteers thought that these subsidies would be allowed in the event of our leaving the EU and coming out of its state aid system. They thought that we would be able to incentivise local content, and a lot of people in left-wing areas supported Brexit for that reason, but it is expressly prohibited by the WTO and the trade and co-operation agreement. I am just rising to vent my frustrations briefly; I am not going to vote against the clause. Question put and agreed to. Clause 17 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 18 Relocation of activities”
“We are going to end up in a situation where the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy does not have 400 staff here and has 400 staff in Salford instead. Surely that is a good thing, rather than a bad one. It would be helpful if the Government could clarify what is meant here. I agree with the amendment. I agree with the report. We covered areas of deprivation this morning. The freeport thing, however, is unsolvable unless the Government provide us with more information, whether by the Minister explaining, changes being tabled for future iterations of the Bill—perhaps on Report—or the report asked for by the Opposition being provided.”
“If, for example, a Government Department was to relocate from Whitehall to Salford—I cannot think which Department might be doing that—and if there is going to be some sort of incentive for them to do that, that relocation would be prohibited. Surely that is something that the Government want; if they did not want it, they would not be doing it. They want Government Departments to be able to relocate to places outside Whitehall and to bring jobs to those areas. I am glad they are doing that, but it now would not be able to provide any subsidies for that to happen. That does not make sense. If the Government’s stated aim and objective is to try to level up places to ensure more jobs, there is going to have to be some level of relocation. That is going to have to happen.”
“The concerns I raised on principle F of schedule 1 are very similar to the ones being raised here. The Government have an intention here, but the clause will not achieve that intention; it is also too restrictive. I love this amendment; it feels hugely cheeky. I know it is very serious, but I love the way it is drafted—how sad is that?—and I quite like the way both issues are put together in the same amendment. It makes sense that this measure is included alongside the amendments moved earlier by the Opposition on areas of deprivation. There is also the freeport element. The clause basically rules out freeports and the way the Government have explained they are intended to work, which is massively concerning if that is the Government’s plan.”
“The Minister has made a good case on subsidies for the purpose of regeneration, but that is not stated in the clause. At no point is it stated that the regenerative ideals or decisions to produce regeneration in an area trump the clause.”
“The additional point that the UK Government have added is basically to stop one area entering into a bidding game with another area within the UK, and that, in a sense, is a sensible addition. These are meaningful principles: you use subsidies sparingly, but you use them where they really can deliver something that you think is socially and economically valuable.”
“I should have mentioned that there is a precedent in the UK with the Localism Act 2011. Part 2 deals with subsidies and passing down funds from the EU. At the time, we negotiated a system of proper consultation with local government, in this case from the UK Government, so perhaps that is an issue at present that we can look at in terms of implementing this Bill. Professor Fothergill: Subsidies are something that you should only use sparingly and where they really deliver something that is beneficial. That is why we need the principles that are set out in the legislation. Indeed, it is hard to see how we can get away from those principles that are set out in the legislation, because all bar one are embodied in the trade and co-operation agreement that was signed with the EU last December.”
“I think when we are talking about consultation, we are talking about consultation as something that is structured, something that is predictable, something that has more accountability and something that approaches corporate action to a certain extent. That is something that in the UK is far more touch and go compared with other countries. I think this is an opportunity, on something as potentially economically and politically sensitive as this, to have a much more structured system of consultation, rather than the issue of a local approach. That sometimes works fine—no problem—and I have said to myself that perhaps we could possibly do that many times over the years. Here it is a rather serious matter that is also very political as well, and we should have a very predictable and pre-set system.”
“Q I have two questions, but the first one is a yes/no answer. The first is: has COSLA been consulted on what the forthcoming guidance is likely to say? The second question is for both of you. Schedule 1, principle F says: “Subsidies should be designed to achieve their specific policy objective while minimising any negative effects on competition or investment within the United Kingdom.” Can I ask you both if that sounds like it is meaningful, and if it is meaningful, what does it mean? Dr Pazos-Vidal: I assume that the first question was addressed to me. We have had a number of discussions, it is true, in the preparation of the Green Paper and the consultation, and some of this work was facilitated by other organisations, such as ones you are going to speak to later today.”
“If we understand where the subsidies are going and who is getting subsidised, we can have a better understanding of whether these subsidies are working and achieving their goals. If you are weighing up the costs and benefits, I think the benefits of having fewer exemptions would outweigh the costs.”
“In my own research on procurements, not in the UK but elsewhere, I find that Governments break up their procurement contracts specifically to get them below the threshold so that they do not have to report them and they are not open to scrutiny. I am not suggesting that happens in terms of subsidies, but these cumulative subsidies could potentially take on that kind of logic where you are breaking up a subsidy or collaborating on providing subsidies below that threshold that actually end up going above the threshold. Finally, in terms of exemptions, there are exemptions included in this Bill. Sometimes they may be legacy exemptions, but I think that the benefits of having this information surely outweigh the costs.”
“In terms of monitoring that, and knowing whether subsidies have exceeded a de minimis limit, I think that is the responsibility of the recipient rather than the public body. However, I am afraid that is one where you would have to ask some lawyers. Professor Rickard: I do not know the logic behind the 12 months, but as I said in my opening remarks, I think that is quite a long time. If a competitor is benefitting from a discriminatory tax break, then after 12 months I could be out of business. So it does seem like a very long time, and I would think about the potential benefits of shortening it. The cumulative subsidies question is an excellent point, and it highlights the arbitrariness of having these thresholds. The monetary thresholds are potentially obscuring these cumulative subsidies, exactly as has been suggested.”
“Lastly, EU state aid rules have a number of de minimis exemptions for agriculture and various other things. Does the fact that the Bill does not include them cause problems, or is it more of a tidying-up exercise? Thomas Pope: On tax, again, that is a longer allowance that is in the TCA, and that is why it looks like that in the Bill. Of course, the bigger question is why it was permitted in the TCA in the first place. I think it is because tax measures tend to operate on a slightly different cycle—we have our financial years and budgets—and that is why there is a different time period, but I am not quite sure. In terms of cumulative subsidies, I am not sure that they would end up on the database—I do not believe that is the case.”
“Q My questions focus particularly on chapter 3, which is about the subsidy database and transparency. Do you have any idea what the logic is behind the tax entries in the database? It seems to me that if something relates to a subsidy measure that is taxed, it may not need to be reported for almost two years—or even longer—because it is a year past the first declaration on the tax. Does that make sense, or would it be better to have something different? I have two more questions. In the event of cumulative subsidies, where an organisation receives various subsidies from various organisations and it takes them over the threshold of the three-year period, who is responsible for ensuring that that is put on the subsidy database? I am not clear on that.”
“Q To follow that up, probably with Mr Pope, it says specifically that indirect subsidies are to be included. In the event that an indirect subsidy occurs, who is responsible for ensuring that there is transparency and information about that? Thomas Pope: That is a very good question, and one that I am afraid I do not know the answer to.”
“I encourage some mechanism to ensure that you cannot just say “other” or “not available”. Sometimes the amounts are listed as zero; I am not sure I understand why that is the case. I also think best practice could be followed in terms of international comparability. For example, you could put on these codes that we use to identify the sector, like NACE codes—internationally standard codes that would identify the sector to which these subsidies are going. The Bill is really commendable and is a great initial step, and I am glad to see it up there, but there are ways that it could be improved by providing more information, and more consistent and detailed information, and by using some of these international standard codes that exist in databases that we use—for example, for imports, employment, industries or firms.”
“Q Professor Rickard, you mentioned the subsidy database that there is already. I have had a bit of a look at that. Do you think that it is a model for how we should take this forward, or do you think that there are significant amounts of information that we need to add to it in order that it will make sense to people? You did touch on this, but could you just expand on it? Professor Rickard: I think it is a commendable first step. I think it is great that it is publicly available, that it is online, that it is relatively transparent. There would be some more things that I would like to see. For example, there are many cases, as you will know from looking at it, where it just says “other” or “not available”, and there are a lot of cells that have not been filled in or do not look as if they have been filled in correctly.”
“Q Thank you, Ms Nokes, and thank you, Minister. Dr Barker, you seemed to say that pretty much all of the subsidies should be declared—that there should be transparency about all subsidies. Can I check that was what you said there? Dr Barker: That is what I said, yes.”
“It is very important that all the components of the system have the right resources and the right clarity in terms of guidance, and that there is transparency.”
“If you are potentially a competitor and you can see that there is a clear justification, based on widely understood principles, for a subsidy—it is something that is not being covered up and that is openly stated—and if you have trust in the decision-making process, the system is going to work well, and there is probably going to be less legal challenge from competitors. But as soon as that trust is lost—because things are taking too long, because there is a lack of transparency, because decisions are being made on a very unsafe basis, or because officials do not understand how to apply the principles—that is going to build mistrust and that will then lead to more legal challenge and more problems from the system.”
“Q Okay. Perfect. You are in the unusual position where you represent both those people who may receive subsidies and those who may challenge subsidies. Do you feel that the balance is right? Do you feel that, given how the Bill works, your members are likely to be able to challenge subsidies that they feel are disadvantaging them or their organisations? Dr Barker: This is why I was arguing for transparency. Transparency is an important part of that. A lot will depend on how quickly and effectively the system operates and how much trust there is in the system.”
“It does seem to me right, as matter of principle, that in those circumstances the Scottish Ministers at least—and potentially other people—would have the right to send the matter off to the CMA to consider. Bear in mind that the CMA report is not binding, so in a situation where the Secretary of State wanted to say, “Well, I hear what the CMA says, but I just disagree: I still think that this measure is wholly compliant with the principles and the CMA has just got it wrong in suggesting that I change it”, he can go ahead. It is then a risk of litigation—it might be better if the Scottish Ministers had a clear right to bring that litigation too, but that is the current position.”
“Q I have a couple of questions. In the event that BEIS is the granting authority, the only person, realistically, who can make a referral to the CMA to look at it is the Minister, who is in charge of the granting authority. Is there an argument for other people to be added so that a conflict of interest does not arise? George Peretz: That is absolutely a fair point. If the subsidy measure comes from central Government or even if it is BEIS that is the granter, is it realistic to expect the Secretary of State to call it in or make a post-award referral? You are obviously going to be concerned, from a Scottish perspective, with the possibility that you have a BEIS decision—there is serious concern about this in Scotland—that has an adverse effect on the Scottish economy in some way or another. That is the point I was making.”
“Ultimately, if a UK court is uncertain, it will refer the matter to the European Court of Justice, about which we have heard rather a lot in recent days, and it will decide, or at least decide the parameters within which that decision is to be taken. It is all a bit of a mess.”
“That happens now, but there is a bit of a suspicion that BEIS will take a somewhat conservative view of what article 10 covers, because that is the UK party line. That is fine, but the UK party line may not actually be right and may not be what a UK court would decide. If you are the beneficiary of a grant from a local authority in the situations that I have described, and you are concerned that your competitor may challenge that as an article 10 measure in the UK courts, as they are entitled to do, the BEIS guidance says that it should be fine, and although the court may read that guidance, it certainly would not be bound by it.”
“Given the way article 10 stands, the Bill does the only thing that can be done, which is simply to exclude from the Bill measures falling within the scope of article 10, but you do then have that issue. When we were members of the EU in the old days, you would advise on something that was state aid, or was certainly likely enough to be state aid that the beneficiary—they tend to be quite cautious because they do not like to receive money that they then have to pay back—said, “We are rather concerned that it is state aid, but it does not seem to fall within the any of the block exemptions and has not been notified and cleared.” In the old days, if the grant were a from local authority, the beneficiary would go off to BEIS, which would take a look at it, and if there was a real risk that it was state aid, they would be notified.”
“Q That is helpful. I have a couple of additional questions following on from Stephen Kinnock’s question about the Northern Ireland protocol. We have heard already that granting authorities in the UK tend to be fairly risk averse. Given their risk-averse nature, would a situation where most of the granting authorities in the UK are advised that they have to apply state aid rules as well as the Subsidy Control Bill rules make it more difficult for them to put in subsidies in the way that the Government are hoping? George Peretz: It certainly generates work, so I look at it not entirely unfavourably, but yes, from anyone else’s perspective it is a bad thing. There is certainly an issue, and not much that the Bill can do about it.”
“However, if you have a clear understanding that it is expected that interested parties are to include the devolved Administrations, then the Minister saying that that is the Government’s legislative intent in using that phrase gets you well over the line. Would you then need an amendment? No.”
“It either is an interested party or it is not. If it is not, saying in the explanatory notes that you hope it is may not be enough to get you over the line, in contrast to the Minister helpfully saying so to the Committee. If I may briefly speak about the difference between explanatory notes and a Pepper v . Hart statement, Chair? The official explanatory notes are a source that the courts will have regard to in determining doubts and questions about the law. A Pepper v. Hart statement is the law: it is part of the legislative intention when the Act is passed, so it is more powerful. However, if the Act says “dog” but the Minister says to the Committee, “We meant cats as well”, that will not help. You can have all the ministerial statements you like, but if it don’t go woof, it isn’t covered.”
“Q You spoke about the generalities of where it says Secretary of State quite regularly in the Bill, Daniel. Clause 70 specifically talks about interested parties and those people who are able to call in a subsidy; it mentions the Secretary of State, but also persons “whose interests may be affected”. In your view, could we ensure that Scottish Ministers, Northern Irish Departments or Welsh Ministers have that ability by amending that section, by the Minister saying in Committee that that is the case, or by changing the explanatory notes? Would those all be routes that would allow those three authorities to have the ability to refer as well? Daniel Greenberg: From a purely technical perspective, I think that is on the cusp of the things that I would be comfortable encouraging you to simply put in the explanatory notes.”
“You should not be complaining on this occasion, because the Bill needs to be skeletal in order to give the flexibility for the ongoing relationships between the different powers concerned by the substance of the Bill. Does that help?”
“However, if I may say so, you should not be complaining about that here. My whole point is that this is inevitably a Bill about structure and shape. Those of you considering the devolved institutions and other interests want to ensure that you have the flexibility to move forward while balancing everybody’s interests. The best way to do that without having to come back to Parliament each time is to ensure you have powers with a mechanism for consultation and co-ordination. Then, you know that that process of co-ordination will have the powers necessary to give effect to it through subordinate legislation and quasi-legislation.”
“Q Another additional question on that—the other thing that has concerned me, as well as a number of the witnesses today, is the amount of stuff that is in regulation and guidance, not in primary legislation. Do you feel that the balance has shifted towards more things being done by guidance and regulation in recent years? Do you feel that there is a significant portion of the Bill that is being done by regulation and guidance, rather than through primary legislation, or even by affirmative procedure? Daniel Greenberg: Yes, okay, there is a bit of a shift, but it has been quite slow. People have been complaining about the increase in skeleton Bills by successive Governments since I started in public service 150 years ago. So, there is an increase, but it has been gradual.”
“I think we would be in a very difficult place if we were relying on guidance that might come out later to give us the comfort that we require that this was not a challenge to the devolution settlement, and the powers of the Scottish Government and Scottish Ministers.”