Kirsty Blackman
MP for Aberdeen North · Scottish National Party · United Kingdom
“I first raised the issue of self-generated images in Parliament more than four years ago. I have asked almost every single Culture, Media and Sport team about the issue of livestreaming. I am pleased to hear from the Secretary of State that action is being taken, and about the belt-and-braces approach that is coming in.”
“Labour promised £200 million for Grangemouth, none of which has materialised. Labour promised 1,000 jobs for GB Energy, and it turns out that a third of the 130 delivered so far are not actually in Scotland.”
“There is a geographical divide on this issue starker than I have ever seen in this place. Across all parties, every Member representing a Scottish constituency has stressed the issue of jobs, and how important this is to the north-east of Scotland.”
“There is a fundamental question here about what our priority is. Is it to reduce the bill, to reduce the amount of money that we are spending, or to ensure that disabled people can access all the human rights that the rest of us can, access society and be supported? We must recognise the extra costs of disability. What is the priority?”
“May I continue to encourage the Minister to talk to Social Security Scotland and our colleagues in the SNP Government about their experiences of the adult disability payment and whether the changes that have been implemented in Scotland would make a positive difference to those claiming PIP?”
“I will point out where things are today and how we can improve them, rather than looking at what was done in the past, but first, I recognise that although Pride is about celebration, it is also about being angry. We should be angry about the injustices.”
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“This is a subject of much moral debate. We will not ever accept the use of lethal autonomous weapons. Our concern is that, as they are on the cutting edge of technology, ARIA may consider looking at those weapons. I do not want that to be done in the name of the people I represent; they certainly do not want it done in their name. The Minister has told us about the memorandum of understanding that will be in place between BEIS and ARIA. We have already touched on the issues of ethical investments that ARIA may or may not make. If the Minister was willing to make a statement about the ethical nature of investments ARIA will make and the direction that may be put into that MOU—we do not have as much information as we would like on the MOU—that might give us some comfort on the direction that ARIA may take.”
“I thank the hon. Member for his characteristically sensible intervention. However, I feel so strongly about this that I think it is important that ARIA is excluded from doing that. There are other means that the UK can use to fund weapon development. I do not think ARIA should be one of them. We are particularly concerned because of the lack of transparency and the issues that there have been around the use of weapons and the use of UK resources on weapons. We have said that we want the UK to immediately halt all military support and arms sales to regimes that are guilty of violations of human rights and international humanitarian law. The UK Government have not done so. Our concerns are well founded, which is why we have tabled what is quite an extreme amendment in comparison with others we have seen.”
“I thank the Minister for her statement. I listened to it closely, and it did give some comfort about the possible direction of ARIA. Given what she said, I do not intend to press the amendment to a Division, but we will keep a close eye on what happens. When we scrutinise ARIA, we will examine whether it uses significant portions, or indeed any, of its resources to fund weapons development, especially in countries where there is concern about use for nefarious purposes—not that weapons can generally be used for a particularly good purposes—and with regard to lethal autonomous weapons. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn . Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.”
“If there is not a normal mechanism for us or journalists to scrutinise this through FOI, it would be helpful to have some comfort that written questions relating to ARIA will be answered, with as much detail as the Minister feels can be given at that time.”
“I suggest that having more public transparency about that and more openness about the processes in ARIA would ensure that the public are more on board with the organisation’s ability to fail. The organisation should have the ability to fail, but if we do not know that that is happening, because we have not been able to scrutinise it, and that suddenly comes out in the end-of-year annual report, it will be even more of a shock for the public than if they had heard about it along the way. On the topic of scrutinising the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, it is interesting to consider whether BEIS will provide us with responses if we send it written questions on the subject of ARIA. That would be helpful to know.”
“I want to make a couple of comments. We have talked a lot about transparency and the need for it, but mostly in the context of the scrutiny that we as parliamentarians will levy on ARIA. It is really important that we have transparency so that the public and journalists can scrutinise it. We are not always fans of some of the journalism that happens, but I hope we are all agreed that journalism plays a hugely important role and that journalists have no other route to access the information that they should have on ARIA in order to bring things to the public’s attention. We discussed also the tolerance for failure that exists in the UK, and how it might differ from tolerance for failure in the US.”
“Part of that inadequacy is the fact that we have no certainty about what will or will not be a discrete line within the estimates. We have no certainty about whether we can get the costs for something. As the shadow Minister said, when she asked for costs for UKRI, in relation to freedom of information requests, for example, she did not get them. Even if ARIA is to be an arm’s length organisation in relation to BEIS, with a memorandum of understanding, but it will be spending public money, I would be keen to keep track of how much we are allocating to ARIA each year. Once again, it would be quite good if the Minister would make a commitment to a discrete line in the estimates. If she does that, I will be more than happy to say nothing else.”
“I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time. Aberdeen North is by far the best part of Aberdeen, Mr Hollobone. I know that new clause 3 is the most exciting thing, and that the Committee has been waiting for it the whole time. It is the key moment in our discussions. I jest—but it is important. The past few years saw the advent of English votes for English laws in Parliament, and we were told during its development that even though Scottish MPs were being written out of having a say on England-only legislation, we would still have a say on Barnett consequentials, because we would be able to vote during the estimates process. We have made our issues with that process clear. Despite good changes to the system and the way we scrutinise estimates, the process is still wholly inadequate.”
“With that confirmation from the Minister, I am happy to say that I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion. Clause, by leave, withdrawn. New Clause 4 Ethical code for investment ‘(1) Within three months of the date of commencement of this Act, the Secretary of State must lay before Parliament a code for ethical investment developed and agreed by ARIA. (2) The code of ethics developed by ARIA under subsection (1) must go beyond regulatory requirements and adopt a best practice approach.’ — (Stephen Flynn.) This new clause is intended to ensure that ARIA develops a code for ethical investment that goes beyond regulatory requirements and adopts a best practice approach. Brought up, and read the First time.”
“I understand what the Minister says about the fact that there is no such provision for UKRI. However, perhaps if was being set up now, we would suggest that there should be. For her information, the Scottish National Investment Bank has a clause almost identical to new clause 4, on ethical investment. We believe that if the Scottish National Investment Bank can operate on that basis, ARIA should have no problem doing so. I understand exactly what she says about the debates that are happening, but that is why it is even more important for ARIA to sign up to some kind of code of ethics that we can all scrutinise.”
“Further to that point of order, Mr Hollobone. I echo the comments made by the shadow Minister. I have said thanks very much to the Clerks, but I also put on the record my thanks to Dr Jonathan Kiehlmann and Scott Taylor, our staff members who have been assisting us. I also put on the record my thanks to the Minister, who wrote to us with a response to questions that we asked on Tuesday. I thank her and her team for ensuring that happened.”
“I beg to move amendment 28, in schedule 1, page 6, line 22, at end insert— “(4) The Secretary of State must ensure that— (a) at least 50% of the other members appointed under (3)(c) are women; and (b) where the number of members under (a) would be an odd number, the calculation of 50% of other members should be made as if the board had one fewer non-executive member.” This amendment is intended to ensure that the Secretary of State appoints a significant percentage of women as other non-executive members.”
“These amendments would make clear the Government’s intentions and say to organisations such as the FTSE companies that are being asked to have gender balance on their boards, “We are doing this too; we are leading by example”.”
“My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen South and I represent Aberdeen constituencies, where Robert Gordon University and Aberdeen University do a lot around engineering, oil and gas. We have thankfully seen a significant amount of immigration to our city because of the oil and gas. Outside London, the highest percentage of non-UK-born citizens is in Aberdeen. That means a significant number of people from ethnic minority groups are in the engineering profession, but again we have the same issue. It is very unusual to go into a room full of oil and gas executives and for any of them not to be white, and it is fairly unusual for any of them to be women, although we are seeing an increase in those numbers.”
“It is important that the Government agree to such an amendment. If the Minister is unwilling to, it would be helpful to hear how the Government plan to increase the gender balance on the board and ensure that women are appointed to these roles. For example, they have said to FTSE companies that they need to have a percentage of women on those boards, but they are not putting that into the legislation in this instance and it is important that they do so. The Opposition’s amendment 9 in relation to diversity is an incredibly good amendment. In fact, I am quite upset I did not think of it. We have a similar problem with diversity in engineering. Mainly white men are in these positions, and people in school do not look at these positions and think, “I’m going to aspire to do this,” because they do not see people like them in those roles.”
“We know that young women, and young men, are more likely to take up and aspire to positions if they can see people who look like them in those positions, see people who have succeeded, and know that there is an opportunity to climb the ladder rather than hit the glass ceiling, as people so often do in engineering. This would be a real opportunity for the Government to make it clear that it is incredibly important to have women in these roles. Maths is not just for boys; it is a subject for everybody. When I was doing my advanced higher maths, I was the only girl in the class. Not one other girl had chosen to take advanced higher maths. It was not a small class, it was a class of about 20, and it was because people felt that it was a boys’ subject and girls should not be taking it.”
“There are also positions that are not appointed by the Secretary of State because they are executive positions. In relation to the non-executive members, it is incredibly important that a significant percentage of women is included among them. The hon. Member for Broadland said that we should legislate only where we have to. I think in this case it is incredibly important to legislate. We know that only 12% of all engineers are women, and that 25% of 16 to 18-year-old girls would consider becoming an engineer as opposed to 51.9% of boys in that age group. There is an incredibly hard glass ceiling, particularly in science, technology, engineering, and mathematics, and in the kind of roles that will benefit from the funding that ARIA will receive.”
“It is a pleasure to be able to take part in this Bill Committee. Unfortunately, I had to come to London to do so, but it is nice to see some of the faces that I have not seen for a while, other than on little screens. I will start with a bit of fluff: I thank the Clerks for their huge amount of hard work in assisting us with the amendments that we tabled to the Bill. It was really helpful. I am sure they provided the same level of help to everybody else, but we very much appreciate it. I will speak to amendment 28 and the Opposition’s amendment 9. Our amendment 28 relates to the number of women to be appointed to the board in non-executive positions. There is some lack of flexibility around the positions because two are taken by named individuals.”
“I would very much appreciate it if the Minister let us know whether the Government will take the actions that we have proposed in our amendment. If not, what do they intend to do to ensure that people from diverse backgrounds are included?”
“I was hoping that I was not being too critical of the Government. I did not intend to say the UK Government are terrible in this regard. I think they have done some good things around gender balance on boards, for example. I would have gone further, but they were a good start. I am not hugely critical of where things are, but I think a kind of stamp on this Bill, to say, “This is the direction we would like to go to”, would be helpful. This can be done. We have done it in Scotland with the Scottish National Investment Bank. Our amendment is very similar to the proposal in relation to the investment bank—we are doing a huge amount for our public bodies. The investment bank intends to have a significant number of women on it, and it is the same for gender representation on public boards in Scotland more generally.”
“We are looking at having a just transition; we are looking at moving Aberdeen away from its focus on oil and gas to a focus on renewable energy and the energies of the future. We will not have those energies of the future or the design and innovation that we will need unless we have diversity in the research environment and unless we have a significant number of people from different backgrounds, all with different life experiences, considering how best to solve problems. For young people considering coming into these organisations, having women and people with other protected characteristics on boards such as that of ARIA would mean that they are more likely to be able to aspire to those roles.”
“This has been quite an interesting debate and I particularly enjoyed the speech by the shadow Minister; I thought it was very good. However, I did not expect to be discussing women’s underwear during the course of this Bill Committee. It is the case in relation to things being designed for men that such things happen. We see that if we consider the fact that endometriosis treatments, for example, are few and far between, because researchers and organisations do not put money into researching things that are “women-only problems”, because for some reason we matter less. It is therefore incredibly important that the Government take positive steps in this regard. Engineering and innovation will be the future for us. I have already said that I represent Aberdeen.”
“I thank the hon. Member for his input. I was not trying to criticise the actions of the UK Government in this area—in lots of other areas, but not in this one. Positive steps have been made. In Scotland, we have a duty of gender diversity on boards and it has worked. We have proved that it has worked across public sector boards. It has made a positive difference. People can say that we might not need to legislate for it, but it is a safeguard. It ensures that we have that percentage of women on the board and that we have diversity in all appointments in relation to ARIA.”
“I absolutely agree. This measure should be included in the Bill as a safeguard or a fallback—a failsafe. I appreciate the public sector equality duty exists, but that is not strong enough to give me comfort. When women do engineering degrees, they get better degrees than men. They get a better class of degree—the statistics prove it. If we want the highest possible quality of people, from diverse backgrounds, pushing innovation forward and trying to, for example, make the renewable energy technologies of the future, we need to ensure diversity on the board and more widely in the staff of ARIA.”
“For the avoidance of doubt, we are happy to support the two amendments. On the issue of geographical experience, if we go with geographical knowledge as well, and perhaps get people who have specific expertise in, for example, energy-related technologies, such as we have around Aberdeen, and in technologies around AI, which we have in the area around Edinburgh, then we have geographic hubs as well as experience hubs. The amendment nicely allows for ARIA to make sure that it encapsulates all of that and not just, as the hon. Lady says, nanotechnology, which is brilliant but is not the only thing that we should focus on.”
“Does the shadow Minister find it bizarre, as I do, that we have a higher bar for taxi drivers, for example, who have to pass a “fit and proper person” test in order to become a taxi driver, than for these people, who will be spending millions of pounds of public money? I recognise that that is a sensible thing to do, but there is not the level of oversight that we have for people such as taxi drivers.”
“We have asked an awful lot of questions about the appointment of the CEO and chair. Does the Minister understand that her answers have not given us comfort? To say that the roles will be appointed by the chair and the chief executive does not help us a huge amount, because we are not very happy about the process of appointing those people, so for them to be able to appoint other people does not help us in any way, shape or form. Having more safeguards in place would give us comfort that those people will be fit to do the job.”
“Does my colleague agree that what we saw happening in relation to Northern Ireland—the money funnelled there and the fact that we did not get our Barnett amount of that cash—increases our worry about the fact that we might not see the Barnett amount for ARIA either?”
“It is also important that we do not have a gender pay gap within ARIA. We know that the glass ceiling in areas such as engineering is very significant. We want to ensure that women are promoted to all levels within the organisation, that women are paid fairly within it and that we are able to scrutinise the information. I would really appreciate it if the Minister stood up and said, “Yes, absolutely—we will be negotiating that as part of the MOU.” That would be massively appreciated because it is incredibly important.”
“Will the Minister tell us that it will include the geographical disbursement covered in the previous amendment, and the gender balance of the board members and senior staff and the gender pay gap, as covered in amendment 29? If we are asking companies to report on the gender pay gap in their annual reports, as we are and should be doing, it is not out of the question to ask ARIA to do the same. The measure is particularly important because the Government are absolutely intent on excluding ARIA from freedom of information; if ARIA is excluded from FOI, we are not able to see that information. We will not have the level of scrutiny that we normally have over a public body. We have talked at some length— the shadow Minister spoke at some length—about the importance of gender balance, diversity and having women in senior roles.”
“I beg to move amendment 29, in schedule 1, page 10, line 5, at end insert— “(3) The report must include— (a) statistics on the gender balance of— (i) executive board members (ii) non-executive board members (iii) senior staff; and (b) financial information on the gender pay gap among ARIA employees and appointees.” This amendment is intended to ensure that this public body may be held accountable for its gender representation . The Minister just made a helpful comment about the memorandum of understanding that will happen between BEIS and ARIA, but her comment was not quite strong enough for me. She said it was likely to include these things—perhaps very likely.”
“That means we are not able to adequately scrutinise the money spent, to ensure that there is diversity and fairness, making sure that women are not only in the lower roles in the organisations, but are starting at or being promoted to higher roles. What the Minister said was not strong enough for me; I would like for her to have reassured us that the MOU will have that duty written into it. I would like to push the amendment to a vote. Question put, That the amendment be made.”
“I understand that there are public sector duties in relation to this issue, but ARIA could easily fulfil all those by employing only men—it could just pay them all at whatever level because they would all be men. It would fulfil its duties in that regard because there would be no gender pay gap, but it would be incredibly important for us to know that ARIA had only fulfilled its duties by taking that step, because it is public money that is being spent. While Scotland is still part of the Union we want to be able to scrutinise how the money is spent. It is important that we have information on whether there is a gender pay gap in ARIA, whether or not it has 250 employees. Again, it is a public sector organisation spending public money but exempt from public procurement regulations and exempt from FOI.”
“Is it succeeding if it is coming up with technologies that will improve lives? We do not know what we are measuring ARIA against, so the Government will presumably—as they do with most things, and as most Governments do—say that ARIA is a success, whatever happens. However, I want to know what criteria it is being measured against, so that we can actually judge it. If it is what the hon. Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock suggested—if ARIA is to fund scientific projects on the edge, regardless of whether that is of an ellipse or a circle—that is fine, because then we can judge it against that. However, I am not clear that that is the Government’s intention.”
“Is it about solving scientific problems? I do not know which of those things it is about. Even if the Government are unwilling to accept the amendments that we have tabled—they should accept them, because, as I have explained, £200 million a year on solving climate change is not a bad thing, even though I think we should be spending significantly more than that—they should be clear about the point of ARIA. How are we are measuring performance? How do we know whether it has succeeded? Do we know that it has succeeded if it has spent lots of money? Do we know that it has succeeded if it has funded lots of projects? Do we know that it has succeeded if it has made a difference to the level of productivity within science, research and development in the UK, or to productivity in the UK in general?”
“I just want to add a couple of things. The hon. Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock gave us what he thinks the mission for ARIA is. Unfortunately, everybody I have heard speak has a different idea of what the mission for ARIA is. I thought the statement of policy intent was really useful in telling us the mechanics of how ARIA will work. It is really useful in saying why it is set up in a particular way, but it does not actually tell us what the point of it is. Reading through the Bill, I realised not just that ARIA does not have a mission, but that it does not have a direction. Is ARIA about funding scientific things that are not otherwise funded? Is it about increasing productivity, which is mentioned too? Is it about economic growth? Is it about improving the lives of people who live in the UK or elsewhere?”
“Before #MeToo women were experiencing sexual harassment, before George Floyd BAME people were being murdered and before Sarah Everard’s murder women were scared to walk home alone. We should not be waiting until somebody is murdered before taking their voices seriously.”
“Before we can fight for anyone else, we need to have a measure of privilege that gives us that those options and the energy to do so. The social security system and this UK Government have done what they can to remove that agency and to remove those choices. We can see that by the number of women who have had abortions during the course of this pandemic and have said that the two-child policy and the rape clause have created the financial situation that has forced them into this position. That is horrendous. In Scotland, we are putting dignity and respect at the heart of our social security system. Instead of drowning out the voices of sidelined minority groups with our own concerns, we should be hearing their voices, we should be listening to their voices and we should be amplifying their voices.”
“We must consider this—we must look at stereotypes—and we must always consider intersectionality: we must check our own privilege. Younger women, ethnic minority women, bisexual women, trans women and disabled women are more likely to be domestically abused. Terry Pratchett wrote: “Evil begins when you begin to treat people as things.” But I also think it begins when we remove anyone’s agency or we remove their right to make their own choices. Before we embark on criticising a focus that someone has, we should all check our own actions and we should check our own privilege. We have the ability to fight on behalf of others, but we have that ability because we have our own agency and we have our own rights to make choices.”
“It is 2021—it is more than 100 years since women got the vote and more than 50 years since the Equal Pay Act 1970. We have come such a long way, and although we are standing on the shoulders of those who came before us and fought for equality, we still have such a distance to go. My children are growing up in a deeply unequal world with deeply unequal experiences. They are pigeonholed and they are stereotyped. Even now, in 2021, little girls are told to be kind, to be nice and to smile, while little boys are told to be brave, to be fast and to be strong. How often have we picked up a toy teddy bear, looked at it and said “he”—used the word “he” to describe it—unless it has a pink bow? In all of those cases, we will say “he” for those things. That is because this is drummed into us, and this is drummed into how our society works.”
“The UK Government have pre-purchased 300 million doses for a population of 66 million. Guinea, a low-income country, has received only 55 doses for its entire population. Given that COVAX will cover only about 20% of the population in low and middle-income countries, can the Minister explain how the UK will step up and take part as global Britain, ensuring that those people in low and middle-income countries and developing countries are able to access the vaccine?”
“A number of people are still in childcare voucher schemes rather than having moved to tax-free childcare. A number of them did not realise, at the start of the pandemic, how long the impact would last, and they have now racked up large balances that they will not be able to spend before their child no longer needs wraparound childcare. Will the Chancellor please look at the people who have these large balances and consider putting in place some flexibility, or asking employers to put in place some flexibility, because they have ended up in this situation through no fault of their own?”
“It is a bit like we had been drinking a lovely glass of water; the Brexiteers offered the UK a malt whisky, but they are now saying that we will all die of thirst if we do not choose to drink the steaming mug of excrement that the UK Government are offering us. There is no way that I will choose to drink that excrement, and neither will I be complicit in forcing my constituents to do so. Scotland’s future must be in Scotland’s hands, not those of the Prime Minister.”
“In fact, this Bill will be going across to the House of Lords this afternoon, where 850 unelected peers will have more say than the Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish Parliaments. The SNP will always do what we have been elected to do. We will always put the people of Scotland first. The alternative we are offering is an independent Scotland in Europe, access to a market 10 times the size of the UK, and the opportunity for young people to travel, live and work throughout Europe, and for our European friends to come to Scotland. We want to reduce inequality, putting wellbeing at the heart of our decision making, and dignity and respect at the heart of social security. I refuse to vote for this dreadful deal.”
“It suits this xenophobic Tory Government to cement a future that removes freedom of movement. It suits this well-off Tory Government to steal opportunities from young people whose parents are not rich. Fishing has been done to death in this debate, but the reality is that the Tory Government did as they have ever done. They prioritised the needs and desires of those fishing in the English channel over the needs and desires of those in Scottish waters. They promised a sea of opportunity, yet are delivering a cut in access. They promised a reduction in unelected bureaucrats making decisions, but this deal creates a new joint partnership council, made up of unelected UK and EU officials, formed of over 30 sub-councils, each focusing on one specific area of the agreement.”
“I want to take this opportunity to thank the Prime Minister. In recent years he has done more for the cause of Scottish independence than any other Unionist politician. Support for independence has been increasing. Seventeen polls in a row have shown majority support for independence. Today’s debate and today’s propositions present a stark choice to the people of Scotland. The Prime Minister is offering this treaty and this Brexit. From the UK side, this treaty was negotiated on the basis of priorities decided by the Tories. At the beginning of this debacle, the UK Government had the opportunity to decide what their priorities would be. They chose sovereignty, and they chose to interpret sovereignty as isolation. It suits this elitist Tory Government to cement a future that keeps apart the haves and the have-nots.”
“International aid is about assisting people who are living in unimaginable poverty. The Prime Minister’s answers today have been massively concerning. Will the priority of the new Department be to help the most vulnerable people in the world or to increase the UK’s voice abroad?”
“The response from the US President to the death of George Floyd and the Black Lives Matter movement has been horrendous. Can the Prime Minister confirm to me if he still believes that Trump has “many, many good qualities”, and if so, what are they?”
“No recourse to public funds is a policy that is in place at the Home Office that disproportionately affects my black constituents, as is the refusal rate of visitor visas. Will the Home Secretary commit to looking at these structurally racist policies within the Home Office and to reforming them so that they do not disproportionately affect my black constituents?”
“Aberdeen has been hit by the double whammy of covid-19 and a massive drop in the oil price. Will the Chancellor tell us when he last had a conversation with the industry, and will he please give consideration to announcing sector-specific support in order to protect my constituents and those in other regions where employment is centred around oil and gas?”