Kirsty Blackman
MP for Aberdeen North · Scottish National Party · United Kingdom
“I first raised the issue of self-generated images in Parliament more than four years ago. I have asked almost every single Culture, Media and Sport team about the issue of livestreaming. I am pleased to hear from the Secretary of State that action is being taken, and about the belt-and-braces approach that is coming in.”
“Labour promised £200 million for Grangemouth, none of which has materialised. Labour promised 1,000 jobs for GB Energy, and it turns out that a third of the 130 delivered so far are not actually in Scotland.”
“There is a geographical divide on this issue starker than I have ever seen in this place. Across all parties, every Member representing a Scottish constituency has stressed the issue of jobs, and how important this is to the north-east of Scotland.”
“There is a fundamental question here about what our priority is. Is it to reduce the bill, to reduce the amount of money that we are spending, or to ensure that disabled people can access all the human rights that the rest of us can, access society and be supported? We must recognise the extra costs of disability. What is the priority?”
“May I continue to encourage the Minister to talk to Social Security Scotland and our colleagues in the SNP Government about their experiences of the adult disability payment and whether the changes that have been implemented in Scotland would make a positive difference to those claiming PIP?”
“I will point out where things are today and how we can improve them, rather than looking at what was done in the past, but first, I recognise that although Pride is about celebration, it is also about being angry. We should be angry about the injustices.”
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“Q Nice to see you, Ivan. My question is about the priorities and the fact that we are being asked to take on trust an awful lot of the stuff that is coming forward in regulation and guidance. Given the current track record of the UK Government and their relationship with Scotland, trampling over the Scottish Parliament, do you think that it is likely that the regulations and guidance that come through will be in any way suitable or tailored to the needs of Scotland, or do you think that they are likely to be done for the benefit of the UK? Ivan McKee: Experience has shown us over recent years that the commodity of trust is in short supply. We would be very concerned if the issues that we are talking about were not dealt with in the Bill.”
“Q Just one more on that. Are you aware that about one 10th of the subsidies on the UK subsidies website are from Scotland? About 50 of the 500 are Scottish subsidies. Scotland, presumably, does not do 10% of the subsidies in the UK. Do you think that the UK probably needs to pull its socks up a bit there? Ivan McKee: I would not like to comment. We do what we think is right for the people, communities, regions and businesses in Scotland. I am sure that the UK Government will do what they think is right for businesses in England.”
“How will they meet the carbon capture suggestions made by the Climate Change Committee, which the UK Government have said they will do? How will they meet those targets if they do not progress the Scottish cluster?”
“Under the existing memorandums of understanding, it has a diverse group of 10 CO 2 customers, which meet more than 60% of the Government’s target. It will also reliably unlock 30% of the UK’s CO 2 storage resource, which is absolutely huge. I see absolutely no reason why the Government have chosen only two clusters. I am not criticising the fact that the Government are finally proceeding with CCS— I think that is great. However, it seems so arbitrary and deeply unfair that the Scottish one has been put in reserve, given that it is ready and given that we can progress it right now. I would love the Minister to answer why the Government have chosen to progress only two and, if they continue to progress only two and not move to three, how they will meet the storage obligations.”
“I do not understand why the Government have taken this decision in the face of the Climate Change Committee’s recommendations about how much carbon capture is needed to meet our climate change obligations, or even in order to meet the Government’s own climate change obligations. I have been working alongside Acorn and Pale Blue Dot for a significant number of years. This morning, I spoke with poor Charlie, who works at Acorn, who must be fed up of seeing my face on Zoom meetings and in person, because we have met so often over such a number of years. I have been and continue to be a champion of the Scottish cluster for many good reasons. It has the potential to capture 60% of the UK Government’s 2030 targets. It is forecast to deliver 1.3 gigawatts of low-carbon hydrogen by 2030.”
“It was decided yesterday that the Scottish cluster will be a reserve cluster, rather than one that will be progressed in track 1. That is hugely disappointing. As the hon. Gentleman noted, successive UK Governments have previously pulled the rug out from under carbon capture and storage. What was done to us in relation to Peterhead makes this feel like another kick in the teeth, particularly when the Government have been clear that the Scottish Acorn cluster project has met all the criteria for going ahead. It is just an arbitrary decision that only two are going ahead, rather than three. The Scottish cluster is ready to go. We can make the track 1 timetable. The Government have accepted that we meet all the criteria.”
“Thank you very much for chairing this meeting, Mrs Miller, and huge thanks to the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire (Anthony Browne) for securing the debate. I have to agree with my colleague, the hon. Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham)—the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire made a number of excellent points. I would only disagree with one, and that is the number of jobs he said would be created as a result of carbon capture and storage. In fact, it was a drastic underestimation, given that the Scottish cluster would support an average of 15,000 jobs a year to 2050—many of which are direct jobs, with a number of indirect jobs—and that is an average. That is a significant number of jobs that would be supported by just that one project.”
“Too many people nowadays have to watch every single penny, and have to worry about where all the money to pay the bills will come from. Will the Secretary of State have a look at the amount of time that it takes a supplier of last resort to provide people with an accurate forecast for their energy costs, and, if possible, try to reduce the period during which they experience that uncertainty?”
“In a debate yesterday, the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy said as an aside that Northern Ireland would no longer be subject to the EU state aid regime and that changes to the Northern Ireland protocol had been sought to ensure that would happen. Will the Leader of the House arrange for a ministerial statement on proposed changes to the Northern Ireland protocol and the process that the Government will undertake to attempt to make them?”
“I continue to be concerned that areas around the new harbour in Aberdeen—among of the more deprived communities in the city—will not gain from the new harbour and cruise ships in the way that I would like them to, given what they have had to give up for it to be built, with the number of road closures and work that has been going on. I would like to see those communities benefit. My hon. Friend the Member for Inverclyde mentioned the culture quarter, and we need to support local communities in doing that, to ensure that cruise ship visitors can spend money in the local area. That is what we need to see: the economic benefit coming to those areas as a result.”
“Although having cruise passengers on an island or in a community in Scotland is a great thing, it can also be unsettling for the residents and that local services are more stretched as a result. We need to make sure that balance is struck. The harbour in Aberdeen is split between my constituency, Aberdeen North, and Aberdeen South. A new harbour is being built in Aberdeen South that will be able to accommodate 300 metre vessels with a maximum 10.5 metre draught. Before that was being built in my city, I did not know a huge amount about the cruise industry or how it worked for local communities.”
“We have seen issues around Scotland with things such as the North Coast 500, which is excellent but has brought problems as well as positive benefits to those areas. We must ensure that we strike that balance for local communities. Cruise ship stays make up 15% of overnight tourism volume in the highlands and islands, but they represent a much lower percentage of the overnight tourism spend there. I understand that that is the nature of cruising; that is how it works. However, we cannot see a race to the bottom between Scottish or British ports trying to allow cruise ships to come as cheaply as possible, without people visiting their local areas. We must see the benefit to those local areas.”
“In Scotland, the cruise industry supports more than 800 employees and generates around £23 million gross value added for the Scottish economy. It also extends the tourism season in Orkney and Shetland. However, the key thing for me and for the SNP is that sustainable cruise tourism development must be the overarching requirement. I appreciate the different situation that Southampton and even Inverclyde find themselves in, in that they are cruise ports and less destinations—I am sure Inverclyde is a destination and so is Southampton, but they are involved in servicing the industry more than, say, Orkney and Shetland. We need to ensure that the tourism that we see from cruise ships and cruise passengers benefits those local economies, and that local economies see the plus points of that.”
“I could not think of an appropriate maritime song to sing, but I am sure my children will correct me later and tell me I have missed one—probably from “Moana” or “The Little Mermaid”. Rather than focusing on covid, I want to talk and think about pre-covid and post-covid, what the cruise industry will look like and the benefits it will have for our communities. It is undoubtedly a massive success story. Between 2014 and 2019 we saw 90% growth in cruise ship calls and passenger numbers in Scotland. That is a staggering increase, and it shows the increase not only in the popularity of cruise ships, but in the ability of Scottish ports to take those cruise ships in and of Scottish communities to ensure that we provide the best possible services.”
“Thank you very much for your excellent chairing of this debate, Mr Efford. I thank the hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Royston Smith) for securing the debate. I think my colleagues from Scotland, the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) and my hon. Friend the Member for Inverclyde (Ronnie Cowan) missed a trick: they did not talk about their UNESCO world heritage sites, nor did they talk about the quality of their coffee, which I am sure is truly wonderful, in Orkney and Shetland and in Inverclyde—as well as in Aberdeen, of course. I also did not expect that we would be talking about Disney songs, so I will hold myself back from bursting into song.”
“We need to make sure that we see the benefits for the people working directly in the industry and for the communities seeing the visits. People travelling on cruise ships get to visit some of the most inaccessible places across the UK—no offence to the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland. They get to visit places that cannot be reached by hopping on a bike or a train. It is really important that the people who are travelling on these ships and the cruise companies recognise that these communities are fairly rural and cannot necessarily deal with that influx without support. This is a really positive industry; it is a massive success story, particularly for Scotland and its more rural communities. I would like to see it continue to grow, but we probably need to work more with local communities to ensure that they see its benefits.”
“It is completely reasonable to say that people working in and around green ports, cruise ports or any other kind of port should be paid the real living wage. One of the biggest concerns that I hear, in particular on—slightly off topic—oil and gas supply vessels, is that people are not paid appropriately because they are on tickets from other countries and therefore they are paid less. We need to make sure that we bear down—I do not like that phrase—on that and reduce the number of people not being paid a wage that they can live on. We need to ensure that we have laws and rules to fix that problem in a maritime way, and that the people working in ports are paid the real living wage, not the national living wage. It is such an important industry, and it is one that will continue to grow.”
“I absolutely agree, and I thought that the right hon. Gentleman’s speech was very thoughtful on that matter. He has really thought about the needs of his community. That is why I stressed that we must not have a race to the bottom. We do not want our ports fighting over who can give the cheapest terms because that will only hurt our communities; it will mean that our communities do not see the benefit. It would be much more positive if they worked together, both as local communities and in a more overarching strategic way, as he said. It is really unfortunate that we have not had much co-operation between the UK and Scottish Governments on green ports, in particular when we have been clear about the key things that we want: a focus on net zero and a focus on the real living wage.”
“I am really pleased to hear about the focus on net zero and the amount that the Minister is able to say about what the cruise industry is doing; that is excellent. On the employment issues that have been raised, we are really clear that people should be paid the real living wage, but if he is not willing to go that far, can he at least confirm that he believes people should be paid the national living wage if they are working on cruise ships that are docking in British ports?”
“That is a really important point for a significant number of all of our constituents. The Minister has said that he has had talks and that things may be going forward, but if he will undertake to write to us and let us know what is happening with this issue in future, I would really appreciate it.”
“Does my hon. Friend agree that, in fact, the Bill does the opposite of levelling up, in that it refuses to allow anything to happen in disadvantaged areas that will disadvantage rich areas? That is how the Bill is written—it is in schedule 1F.”
“We have the trade and co-operation agreement and we have the Northern Ireland protocol, but how do the UK Government expect these measures to apply in Northern Ireland without us breaking either the agreement or the protocol? That does not make sense. If the Secretary of State was making that important an announcement, you would think he would do it in a ministerial statement rather than as an aside during the Second Reading of this Bill. I would be really keen to hear a bit more information about what this actually means.”
“The other thing that I am really confused about is what the Secretary of State said about the EU state aid provisions no longer applying to Northern Ireland. I thought he said something about article 21 of the Northern Ireland protocol, but maybe he meant article 16. I am not sure what he meant. In terms of the planned changes to state aid application in Northern Ireland, he seemed to be saying that the new subsidy control regime would apply there and that the UK Government were seeking some sort of change to an article in order to ensure that that happened. I am not aware of any publicity around the UK Government asking the EU for a change, but if that has happened, why have we not heard about it? Could we please have a bit more information on this?”
“In fact, I get the impression that they really do not like it and are not happy about it. We have not seen what the Scottish Government are saying about the legislative consent motion, but I cannot imagine that they will be terribly happy with the power grab that is occurring as a result of the Bill. So I am quite confused by what the Secretary of State said. Does he mean that the devolved Administrations are broadly happy with having a state aid regime? Does he mean that they are broadly happy with the detail of the Subsidy Control Bill? I do not know. I do not understand what he is saying, because it does not seem to be coherent with what the Welsh Government have said in public about this.”
“It is great to hear the thoughtful contributions from that Tory Bench, although not from the Treasury Bench, I hasten to add. The hon. Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) and I have spoken in many debates together, and I always appreciate his forensic assessments of the details in the Bills before us. I hope that he will be on the Committee, and I hope that I will be too. First off, I want to ask a couple of questions about what the Secretary of State said, because I am immensely confused by a couple of the things that he said. First, he said that the devolved Administrations were broadly happy with the Bill. If they are broadly happy, why have the Welsh Government said that they object to five of the six parts of the Bill? One out of six does not equate to “broadly happy”.”
“Member for South Northamptonshire (Dame Andrea Leadsom) suggested—because it explicitly excludes us from doing anything that may disadvantage any other area of the UK. In schedule 1, principle F says: “Subsidies should be designed to achieve their specific policy objective while minimising any negative effects on competition or investment within the United Kingdom.” And principle G says: “Subsidies’ beneficial effects…should outweigh any negative effects, including in particular negative effects on competition or investment within the United Kingdom; international trade or investment.” That reference to international trade or investment confuses me. The principles try to level the playing field across the UK, so there can be a subsidy in Manchester only if a person in the south of England would not move their company as a result.”
“Absolutely. If we as a country can suddenly renege on our international obligations and agreements, why cannot Scotland hold an independence referendum next week? The UK has agreed to these agreements and it would be great, when the Minister speaks at the end of the debate, if he could explain exactly what is going on. This is serious enough for a Minister to be making a separate statement to the House, because it is such an important matter for the people of the UK and particularly for the people of Northern Ireland. My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen South (Stephen Flynn) spoke eloquently about the levelling-up agenda, and I agree that the red wall Tories elected in the north of England should be jumping up and down about this—we are jumping up and down about it, as the right hon.”
“Principle F rejects that, so which one has primacy? Which one is the most important? If they directly disagree with each other, is it more important that we can do what is said in principle A or is it more important that we can do what is said in principle F? I think the subsidy regime should be used in the same way as the EU state aid regime, which focuses on regions that need additional support. Whatever this Conservative Government say—we will not believe them anyway, given the amount of lies we have been told—it is not the case that this regime assists levelling up; it does the opposite. If they want to assist levelling up, they should design a regime that ensures different areas can have different subsidy regimes that benefit their local area even though they may disadvantage other areas.”
“Even though the freeport system is set up to encourage such things, I have not seen evidence that it will actually do so, particularly given the rejection of the key principles we want to put in place.”
“Freeports are not covered by the subsidy regime we are talking about today. They are a separate thing. I can say from the Back Benches that I am not particularly keen on freeports, but the idea is that there is a wall around the port—the guidance specifically says that there has to be a physical barrier around the area—and there is a different taxation regime within that wall. I am yet to be convinced of the economic benefits that will come as a result. We hope to have green ports in Scotland, and the failure of the UK Government to agree that we can pay the real living wage and focus on net zero within those green ports means that the freeport system, as it stands, is not nearly as advantageous as it could or should be.”
“I appreciate all the things that the Labour party has done in the past, but I have spent six years getting increasingly frustrated by the failure of the Labour party to oppose this Tory Government and to stand up even for the Welsh Government at this point. This is really unfortunate. I do not understand at all why the Labour party is not voting against this tonight. We are voting against it. I am not going to support this Bill, as I do not think it should get its Second Reading. I say that for reasons of the power grab, the massive inadequacies in the Bill and the fact it is going to do the opposite of levelling up—it is going to entrench the inequality we already have.”
“One of my colleagues said that there is an incredible level of disinterest among those on the Government Benches about dealing with transmission charges. I appreciate that some of them have considered it, but a Minister has not stood up to say, “You are right. This is a travesty and we need to fix it.” We would really like a commitment on that, particularly if this Bill is going to give protection to interconnectors but no protection to those wind farms in the north of Scotland that are being charged an absolute fortune. I want to talk about the Labour party’s position on the Bill, as I am really disappointed that it is not willing to vote against it. It is important for it to do that. We are going to vote against it. I am on the left.”
“I want to make a couple more points about energy. One of my colleagues mentioned the transition charges. The subsidy regime that is being set up says, “We can’t have one part of the UK advantaged over another part of it.” However, it also says, “No subsidy can negatively affect interconnectors.” So we will still have a situation where energy from the EU is allowed to come into the UK—the companies are not paying any charges for using our network—yet people who have wind farms in Scotland are paying £5.50 per unit of energy. And those in Wales are being paid £2.80 per unit of energy. That system was created when fuel was driven around in vans and had to be driven to places that then used the power.”
“Does that mean a well-functioning and competitive energy market for those people who buy and sell energy, or for the consumer? Does it mean for the person who is being hit by those higher fuel bills or for the people trading gas on a daily basis? I do not know what it means because we do not have that information. If the Government were willing to provide us with the guidance, and we had access to it and seen it, we would be able to ask questions and comment on the specificity of the guidance. When we have experts come before the Committee, we would be able to hear their expert opinion on it, but we cannot, because we do not have the guidance. It is really unfortunate that, on Second Reading, when we are deciding whether or not the Bill should go forward, we have not got the information we need in order to do that.”
“Schedule 2 says: “Subsidies in relation to energy and environment shall be aimed at and incentivise the beneficiary in— (a) delivering a secure, affordable and sustainable energy system and a well-functioning and competitive energy market, or (b) increasing the level of environmental protection compared to the level that would be achieved in the absence of the subsidy.” I am keen to know what “environmental protection” means. What does it mean? It is not in there. We do not know what it means because we have not seen the guidance that the Secretary of State is going to be allowed to produce on their own without running it past this House. The same applies in respect of “a secure, affordable and sustainable energy system and a well-functioning and competitive energy market”.”
“The Bill says that the Secretary of State is going to issue guidance about “the practical application of— (a) the subsidy control principles; (b) the energy and environment principles; (c) the subsidy control requirements in Chapters 2 and 3”. I am clear that there needs to be detailed guidance, but we should be at the stage where we are scrutinising it. When we come to the evidence sessions in Committee, the people before us should be able to talk about the guidance. I get that some of the regulations are going to be made by the affirmative resolution and some by the negative resolution, but my major concern is not those that are going to be made by resolutions in this House; it is those that are going to be made by guidance. Let us we look in detail at some of the stuff in this Bill.”
“Absolutely. We need to replicate the good things we had in the EU, the things that supported different areas. A system has been put in place to ensure that different parliamentary constituencies can get money from the UK Government, but it is super-interesting that the constituencies the Government have chosen to put at the top of the list are those constituencies represented by Conservative MPs, rather than the constituencies with the highest levels of deprivation. The difference is dramatic. It is hugely concerning that, if the UK Government are left to do so much in this Bill by guidance, as set out in clause 79, we are going to have a situation where the Secretary of State will have significant control and flexibility without even having to come through door of this House.”
“Even if that were in the Bill, I am concerned that it is not in the competence of this place to change that unilaterally without having a discussion with the European Union.”
“I honestly do not have a view on whether it is a good or bad thing. I am just utterly confused, because I do not think that the Government have the power to do it. I want to know what they mean so that I can work out whether I oppose it or not. I do not know what they are saying.”
“That is not a tenable ongoing position, because we will end up in a situation where the sponsor body board is not going to be able to do the things that it is supposed to do because it is being overruled or given three different sets of instructions that drastically vary from each other.”
“Me and my colleagues are very keen that we get out of this place, and we will be quite happy to just leave you guys to it—that’s fine. I think that there are an awful lot of better ways that taxpayers’ money could be spent, but the hon. Member for Bristol West made some good points about what the House has voted for and what we are now being asked to look at. I still have concerns about the way in which the governance structures are working, because, for example, the House of Commons Commission is making suggestions that seem to be in contrast to those made by this House.”
“I just want to say a couple of things. First, I thank the outgoing member, the right hon. Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds), who has done a great job, particularly in answering questions from Members in this place. He has really led on that and we have appreciated it. We disagree on a lot of things, but he has been excellent at representing the Parliamentary Works Sponsor Body. I also welcome my new colleague, the right hon. Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh), and thank the board for the work it did and the process it went through to ensure that Paul Lewis, whom I welcome to the board, was chosen. Let me pick up a couple of points made by the hon. Member for Bristol West (Thangam Debbonaire). Do you know what?”
“I am a bit concerned that the Minister has not actually read the motion on the Order Paper. This is about people who are in work. I absolutely agree that people have been kept in work as a result of the schemes that are being scrapped—that is the case—but the thing is that if people are not being paid the living wage and are not being paid enough money to actually live on, they are going to continue to be in poverty no matter whether or not they are in work.”
“She knitted things, she sewed things and she mended things. She cleaned every building she could possibly get access to and that she could convince people to pay her for cleaning. She did not get any money at all from the Government until she turned 70, when she got 7 shillings and sixpence for her pension, which was an absolute fortune to her. She had spent 37 years working in every job she could have and in every moment she could find in insecure employment—like people are being forced to do in the current system; trying to work every single hour in multiple part-time jobs just so that they can try to put food on the table.”
“Her sister stepped up and offered to take the youngest child off her hands—offered to give that child a home and pay for that child’s upbringing. Imagine having to make such a choice about whether to keep her child. Imagine being forced into that choice of whether to keep that child, whether in 1915, or in 2021 with the rape clause. Imagine having that choice. Thankfully, she chose to keep her child, and she brought up my great-grandmother. The family were helped: they were helped by the church, their friends and their relatives. However, the reality was that people did not have a lot to spare and people did not have a lot they could give in such charitable situations, so the family really had very little money. This was despite the fact that my great-granny’s mother worked in every single job she could find.”
“It is a delight to follow my Procedure Committee colleague, the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Aaron Bell). It is helpful because we are ideologically opposed on every single matter, so I can pretty much stand up and say exactly the opposite of what he said, and it will be grand. Mr Deputy Speaker, I want to take to take you back to 1915. In 1915, my great-great-grandfather John Murray was killed when his steam herring drifter was cut in half by a British warship. My great-granny’s mother Barbra Helen Murray, who was known as Babeellen, was left to raise five girls by herself. When she was left in that situation of abject poverty, there was no Government funding to help her. She had no support from the Government to get through that very immediate crisis.”
“That was over 100 years ago; this should not be happening today—we should not be having single parents crying because they cannot afford to buy winter shoes for their children.”
“Not many people are wanting a Sunday outfit to go to church—some are, but not that many—but they desperately need access to the most basic of services so they can get their UC and make their claims, and so that they can speak to friends and family and not be hugely isolated. A cut of £80 a month is a huge amount. For a lot of people, £80 a month is their council tax bill, or two mobile phone bills, or—goodness knows—one pair of shoes for the kid, maybe two pairs for those who are particularly lucky and their child is going to wear something a bit cheaper. It is a huge amount of money, not pennies; it means people will have to cut back on a big, major bill when this cut is implemented. My great-granny remembered her mother crying because winter was coming and she could not afford to buy shoes for the children.”
“Stories like this belong 100 years ago; stories like this do not belong in the 21st century. We should not have constituents who are in absolute poverty coming into our constituency offices. This motion is about the working poor. My great-granny’s mother did not have money to buy what she saw as necessities; she obviously did not have enough money to buy food and stuff but was helped out in that, but she also could not go to church because she could not buy clothes for church. She had her working clothes but could not buy Sunday best clothes to go to church; that was her biggest regret about not having money. Nowadays, people on UC may not be able to afford internet access, which they need to get their UC, or to afford other things we see as necessities.”
“What makes a difference is ensuring that these folk have enough money to eat—enough money to feed themselves and to clothe themselves. The hon. Member for Bury North (James Daly) talked about hope and aspiration. How can someone have hope and aspiration if they spend every single moment of every single day—”